Also, since this happened in 1922 - Schlittenbauer might have been a WW I Veteran. If Schlittenbauer had seen a lot of carnage during WW I, his "sorting through the dead" might have been another explanation - he checked for survivors or other signs. There are lots of stories that German WWI Veterans had difficulties reintegrating and displayed behaviours that made sense in the trenches but shocked the folks back home.
That's one of the reasons why this case is so bizarre.. it genuinely is such a crazy case... It's really difficult to pin down to one suspect over the other.. There's incest, stories about the family/previous maid hearing someone up in the attic.. just the way they were all killed.. the killer stayed at the house.. there was a bunch of money that wasn't taken. It really is one of those murder cases that horror stories are inspired by.. (for example: The Amityville case is nothing compared to this case. Yet Amityville got turned into this absurd horror movie)
Not to mention as a farmer he is probably used to seeing dead things. That they were human remains vs animal could be a minor difference depending on how his mind worked
I am super confused about one thing - and ultimately I guess it's not super important, at least to us watching this video - but how do they know that they had been killed 4 days before they were found? Especially back then I would have thought they wouldn't be able to determine the time of/since death very accurately, at least to the degree we are able to, today
@@beckybodaschweri9215 Crime scene science was surprisingly advanced already by the 1920s! I mean, not DNA advanced obviously, but I think they could pretty accurately estimate a time of death based on decomposition vs environment by that point in time. I think we often underestimate how recent 100 years ago really is (and just how insanely fast technology has advanced in the past few decades) in the grand scheme of human advancements!
They were dead for 4 days, he would've known there were no survivors - body decomposition isn't a pretty thing. Each of them would have looked terrifying. Not gonna get into the details of the time line of decomposition cuz it's morbid af, so feel free to look it up. There's no way in hell he wouldn't have known they were all dead. Even a blind person would know based on smell alone.
I live 30km from this place. Nothing of the farm remains on site today, it's just a field. But although it was free standing without any direct neighbours, it was not that remote ... the next village is in walking distance.
You need to point out that walking distance for Germans and for other people, well, have absolutely different meanings, when you remember how Germans love to walk 🗿
48.5944, 11.3222 (coordinates for the memorial site from a quick google search) Minutes to walk to Gröbern: 5 Minutes to walk to Waidhofen: 35 Both of these should be everyone’s understanding of walking distance.
Truth. I was working in downtown Sheffield. Muscle shoal Alabama and was redoing one of the old buildings upstairs. It was always dark. Third day I worked my way to the back wall. It was a curtain pulled tight and you could look in behind the tight pulled black sheet. A small room from a squatter who had obviously been there a while. I was working by myself. Probably in 2003. I was so creepy because I had kept hearing noises I never noticed the window upstairs wasn’t visible from upstairs. And all basements connected right across from the old ritz theater. I was scared to. I never found anyone or exactly how they got in. Left a note. My boss was nice enough to do. Finally tore it down a week later. I think I was in the upstairs working and someone was 20 ft away the entire time. I still get the creeps when I think about the moment I realized I hadn’t been alone. True story. It’s one of the creepiest things I’ve felt. Long time ago but I remember I went to sit tools against the back wall and realized it was a sheet. There was a mattress candles and a gold chain. Really strange. 😮. I know they had to be in there the couple of days before.
Makes it extra scary to if you think about maybe if you had discovered them they might have been waiting to bonk you but you just didn't get close enough...
Most likely, they were as scared as you were or more. They knew they didn't own that property and how much trouble they could get in, or they wouldn't have worked hard to hide their presence. I mean: definitely not downplaying how scary this had to be for you. But, maybe humanizing the squatter in your mind will help you heal and take away some of its power.
@@95rav Hate to burst your bubble, but DNA testing wasn't invented until the 1980s, meaning that in the likely scenario where no DNA evidence was collected, then we wouldn't have any DNA evidence to link to a potential killer.
Imagine finding unexplained footsteps in the snow leading to your farm, hearing unexplained noises (that sound like footsteps) from your attic, and your keys suddenly going missing, and not putting all of that together?? Come on dude...
Yes, the murders you alluded to in passing were in Villisca, Iowa. And it is still one of the most baffling and heartbreaking murders ever, since the victims were mostly children. With practically non-existing forensics there was never a chance the perpetrator would be found, but interestingly enough the investigators focused on someone arriving and escaping by train. Which does make the most sense.
But the Villisca murders don't match, in that the bodies were NOT piled up as in Hinterkaifeck. In Villisca, the bodies were left where they were killed, in their respective beds. I don't think this supposed connection is true.
Never heard the story b4. But thanks 42 I now know good bday presents for a few people. The man from the train. & If it's most detailed don't need to search RU-vid net further. Che@MoeSlislack😂😅 just realised handle👍
I have heard this case many times before on RU-vid but this is my favourite telling or retelling of it. Thoughty2 is usually the best with many things.
i do find the fact that lorenz so willingly moved the bodies interesting, there could be the possibility he commited the crime, knew his fingerprints would be on the bodies so in oder to get an excuse, he moved them infront of witnesses which would explain his fingerprints and there would be people able to confirm it
This case is genuinely chilling and full of mystery even after a century. The way you presented this information kept me hooked throughout. The theories you discussed are so intricate and thought-provoking, makes you think just how complex and baffling human nature can be.
You should cover the story of Timothy Dexter - no murders but one of the most HILARIOUS stories of all time about a man who kept receiving BAD financial advice, yet by stupid luck making stupid amounts of money from it! ex: was suggested by an enemy to ship copious amounts of mittens to Jamaica in an attempt to ruin his finances - ended up selling to a cargo ship ported in the Caribbean that was heading to Siberia
On the Wikipedia page, it's said: "Andreas was found to be raping his daughter and the town convicted them both of incest." She was *raped* but still convicted? WTF?
Unfortunately rape victims were often seen as bringing it on themselves, by the way they dressed or acted etc. This is why rape was seldom reported in the 1900's, even as recently as the 1980's rape victims rarely got any justice, and were put through hell in court if it got that far.
@@janetpendlebury6808yeah turns out going to the frat party on the other side of town with men you don't know was just as likely to get you raped back then as it does now. But you know women will blame everything but themselves for putting themselves in a bad position.
I think English Wikipedia is a little misleading here. They were both only convicted for an incestuous relationship, Andreas was not convicted for rape. The thing is it started when Viktoria was 16 years old therefore from todays point of view and laws it was rape, no matter what. Yes even when it comes to German laws even though the age of consent is lower than in the US but since he was the father and she a minor it would be rape. Source: German Wikipedia which is far more detailed than the English one, naturally (the conviction - that they are misleading and the writers just named the crime how it would be today is just a logical conclusion).
@@unschuldshascherl I understand your point. But the fact is that she was 99.99% surely not consent. So I don't understand why *she* was convicted of something.
From the title I did not expect this to be about Hinterkaifeck, but I love that you covered it. I thought this was going to be about "the devil's footprints in the snow" that happened over a 60km chunk of East and South Devon in 1855 (not sure if you've covered that one before)
Hey Thoughty2 thank you so much for all the kickass videos you gave us thru out the year. Happy New Year to you and your family. Looking forward to what you will bring us in 2024.😍
I knew the video was about Hinterkaifeck and still watched despite my familiarity with the story, knew I’d still be entertained. Great content as always Thoughty2 and happy new year 👍🏾
Same I'm a true crime aficionado so when I saw the title I already knew that it was going to be about the Hinterkaifeck murders, still gave it a watch since the way he presents these videos is always entertaining.
This is a really creepy case. I really wish there was a way to do further forensic evidence investigating about this case. So much about it is so eerie. I wish we could get definitive answers about this horrific event
The one thing that leads me to believe that the killer was someone that the victims knew is if they were in fact lured to the barn and killed one at a time bc nobody is going to go into the barn with a stranger who was trespassing on the property, especially in light of all the strange happenings that had them all freaked out to begin with! If the killer had a gun I would say it's possible, but it appears he only had the hammer that they were killed with. I think the most likely suspect is the returning military man that found his wife had left him for another man.
As soon as you mentioned the footprints I knew it was the Hinterkaifeck murders. I first heard it on Mr. Ballen but thank you for bringing it to life with your animation!
A missing body was not unusual also because the shells could blow you right to bits. Enough corpses could have fit into a shoebox once the wasteland was save enough to go and get them. Which didn't mean that someone could go or find them necessarily.
Bodies were sometimes buried then uncovered by artillery several times smashing them up in No Man’s land so I can totally believe her husband was dead.
Some of the best commentary on this subject I've found...how you told the story and put the theories together were amazing...I wish I could join you on the other platform and when I'm able I will....I will be subscribing to this channel for sure...very intriguing and your voice is the icing on the cake 😊
I like how you presented this account. As for Mueller as a suspect, I've read "The Man From the Train" more than once--a couple of these cases occurred not far from where I live--and I can see how his profile fits when happened at the Hinterkaifeck farm.
while he would be a fit... if he really had returned to Germany and this was his doing... how come that he suddenly stopped? there was no second case like this in Germany.
You are a very talented researcher and story teller. You do a good job of editing yourself, meaning that you boil a mountain of evidence down to the most poignant facts without getting bogged down in pointless manusha. Keep up the good work.
Good episode! I love a good mystery. Also, I see in the comments that you do your own graphics, that's a lot of work and well done. However, one of the reasons that I like your channel, is that I can listen to it while I got about my day and still get a lot out of it. Very well done, no matter how it is consumed.
The culprit was the farmer's son who everyone thought died during the war, in fact he was not dead but seriously injured it took him several years to recover from his injuries, and when he returned home, he noticed that strange things were happening on the farm and he preferred to hide in the barn and spy on them to see what was happening, and what he saw made him angry.
Heard this story before; but never with the facts laid out like this, with the level of detail you've put in. Thanks agan for some brilliant content, love learning with you!
I think it was the son-in-law. Though reportedly killed during WW I, no body ever recovered, it's very possible that he was seriously injured and appeared dead or they assumed he was dead, left him where he was (common during wars--usually shallow graves if any at all because of the sheer number of bodies), and either woke up or was found and nursed back to health, maybe not even knowing his own name for those years. He shows up and finds that his wife had had a child during his absence and just lost it. That would also explain the stacking of bodies....just like in war. No matter who did it, it's unlikely to have been their first murder. Murderers don't start with an entire family.
Yes, they do, and have. It depends on the murderer. Look up the case of Paul List, or Ronnie DeFeo (of the infamous Amityville House backstory), or check out "family annihilators" or familicide on Wikipedia.
HAPPY NEW YEAR ARRON!!! All the best in 2024. I always enjoy your videos no matter what the subject is, and always look forward to more videos from you. Keep Safe and Always Inspiring, Matt - Toronto, Canada
First time watching one of your vids and was seriously impressed between the content, editing, commentary, delivery and style! Defs dropping a sub and a like 👍
I've been saying for years I will never cease to be amazed by Thoughty2's incredible talent and being able to create his videos by himself. Proof of that in this episode's sponsor. Long live Thoutghty2 and may the naysayers but struck down internet intermittency.
It was the first maid. She fabricated the story about things in the attic (or it was her making the noise). She might have found out something horrible about the family or they were going to do something to her. Soldiers uniforms were a dime a dozen after the war and make a good disguise if youre a widdowed maid who was sent their husbands uniform with their remains. Her only solace in her job was the animals so she took care of them until the bodies were found. She stayed in disguise, comfortable in the house and hid in a secret hiding spot she found while cleaning one day when people arrived. Waited until everyone left and snuck away. It explains the motive, animals being cared for, someone living in the house after they died, one set of footprints and the missing key
Mmmm... She saw something very horrific and terrifying that no one except her witnessed, and then she fled that same day. She knew about everything that can create alarm, from the dog, to the unnecessary darkness of the house, to the cow and the dirty environment to make people believe the new maid still alive, she took care of everything perfectly just has she has always do. But why would she kill the innocent baby?
But... has anyone traced the movements of this maid after she fled the farm? As incompetent as the Muenchen police proved to be at the time, any subsequent detective wanting to earn a promotion would take a crack at the case, & tracking down this woman would be one obvious step.
It always makes me smile when I see a new Thoughty2 video show up in my feed. The obscure, insightful, and highly interesting stories are always a great watch! Thank you for the content!!
So I never have actually heard of this case before and from what I can tell you’ve done an amazing job here again. I’m so glad I found your channel and have been a subscriber for a while but amazing as usual.
I heard of this story before, but not in such a well made way! You're awesome, and many of the older folks in my village that I introduced to your channel love your work as well!
I did hear strange noises from the attic of the house I grew up in. My dad heard it too it sounded like chains being dragged my mother didn't hear a thing. I also grew up on a farm which was pretty isolated
I’m so glad you covered this!! For anyone still curious, there’s actually a lot more information than everything thoughty2 already covered (tho still not enough to definitively determine the murderer!! 😩).
@@furanduron4926 He doesn't condense much, even adds in details he couldn't possibly know like "She took a moment when she got home and sighed while thinking about [this aspect] of her life".. unless he has been the criminal all along! (And a psychic). Just playing; I'm a bit of a fan. I just find some of his videos are too long for me to want to listen to and some too embellished with unknown details so the narrative has more of a humanized and emotional impact, which is nice, but to me feels like extra superfluous frivilous clutter sometimes.
I'm loving all you videos, been watching them every Tuesday when I work from home. They are entertaining, sometimes even very informative on certain subjects. In all, keep up the good work :D
I first heard about this (Hinterkaifeck) several years ago, I heard about Villisca (on Unsolved No More) about a year ago. Then shortly after I learned about "The Man from the Train". I think it's pretty likely it was all the same guy in the U.S. I think Villisca shows it was not his first time, using the blunt end of the axe, attacking the man first and the overkill to make sure there were no survivors. I think he learned from previous mistakes and had grown comfortable with Villisca. I can't remember all the facts of the cases, I just remember thinking I'm not so sure it's the same killer at Hinterkeifeck or that it's even Mueller. I just think the U.S. murders were the work of a serial killer who murdered near train stations and most likely because he was a traveler. It's almost as if he was a killer who wanted a place to stay for the night for free, or he longed for a home and family and this was some sort of a weird make believe "home" fantasy.
@@kathleennorton2228 For example it's wrong that Schlittenbauer took the key out of his pocket. The barn was connected to the house with a door which was unlocked. He went through the house and unlocked the front door and he stated he found the (former missing) key in the house. That's also a little suspicious but quite a difference. Or the statement that the police work was bad. Yeah maybe you can say it was bad but only in hindsight of 2024. The police did their standard routine for 1922 and spent a lot of effort on the case. The fact that they didn't search for fingerprints was answered by thoughty2 himself: Dozens of spectators have walked through the house and barn and touched everything, there was no sense in searching for fingerprints anymore. The impression of poor police work may also arise because there are very few files on the case today. However, this is not because there was no investigation, but because the files were largely destroyed as a result of air raids during WWII. Or story of the maid: She was the only one who later stated that there were mysterious sounds and happenings 6 months prior to the murders. The Gruber family just heard the noises like a week before they got killed. The maid was known to exaggerate and make up stories, so you should at least take her testimonial with a grain of salt. But as mentioned before: The case is the biggest mystery in german crime history for a reason, nothing to worry about when there are some mistakes. Still a great video from thoughty2!
My theory is it was a fugitive or someone on the run looking for a warm place to hide. They staked out the house from the outside, waited until he knew the family's patterns enough to sneak in, got too bold, careless or just unlucky and got caught in the barn, murdered the person who first found them, then waited for the next family member to come out and see "What is taking Pa so long in the barn" The murderer then hung around for a few days until the mechanic showing up scared him of being caught and he ran off.
About eight years ago I was one of those _digital detectives._ A friend at work stumbled across the case and we fell down the rabbit hole and took his wife with us. He had been stationed in German with the US Army and married a local girl. So we had two fluent German speakers which came in handy. We searched for everything we could find, and on one trip to visit her parents, his wife did some in person investigation. We concluded that _Schlittenbauer_ must have done it because of the unrequited feelings for Viktoria and pure hatred for Andreas. But it was what happened after the murders. His handling the bodies and contaminating the scene would hide any evidence of his participation. He lived closest and was the *only* person that could have come and gone without notice. Also, the local authorities gave him the farm to maintain until the next of kin could be found and notified. He was eventually award the livestock and when the distant relative was located, he sold the farm to _Schlittenbauer_ for a fraction of its value. German state police used this case to train prospective investigators. They stopped when they reached a conclusion and the suspect had died but had living relatives. We were told that once everybody that could have known him personally had died, they *may* announce their findings.
Thoughty2, you animate your own videos? I always thought you hired a 3rd party. You're amazing, man. I'm an old fan, a long-time subscriber, but learning you animate these yourself, I'm a new fan all over again. Well done, man!
They say in a documentary that people from a project that tried to solve the murders, found out who it was but won't say who it was because they don't want to cause problems for the decendence... If that's true, nobody can say
interesting if someone was living in the house then i assume at least one resident knew of their existence, the maid who left the job intrigued me as generally people are more likely to take life changing actions(such as quitting a live in job) after an encounter with something seemingly real like a blackmailer or something, also if the maid had heard noises 6 months earlier why didnt the family hear them too. great video!
Great video, I have seen a lot of coverage of this but I enjoyed your take on it, maybe enjoyed isn't the right word because it's truly very sad. Great job, thanks
Hey there 42, I absolutely adore the intrigue of mystery and your voice is the perfect vehicle for storytelling. Thank you for your energy 🎉. Your animation is awesome I'm looking forward to the next level 🎉.
And all those that complain about them. What’s the difference between using AI generated images and those that do CGI for a living? Or those that paint traditional images?
It is always entertaining to hear english speakers try to pronounce german names ;-) Never mind, but it is Schlittenbauer (he who makes sleds) not Schiltenbauer (whatever that would mean)
