I just have to say, it is so impressive seeing a company come out and clarify what a product can and cannot do. Massive respect for calling out that, as much as we all wish it did, the baffle didn't fix the problem.
most people are daily driving their cars in normal traffic conditions. the percentage of people who track their car is low, and those that are having a problem are even rarer (a niche of a niche). it sucks but i'm not surprised that neither company has done anything (yet).
@@f8698 The FA20 doesn't suffer from this issue so it's not entirely based on it being a boxer engine. It's probably based on the design of the FA24 itself
Powertrain engineer here, I've seen the mechanical development process, some designers require the engine be run on a "rotisserie" literally tilting amd rolling the engine over while firing to simulate high g forces. Toyota skipped that test requirement and used another test procedure for high Gs that clearly failed.
@dnor16 It's not laziness, it's economy of scale. Selling the car in two versions allows higher sales, allowing Toyota and Subaru to split the engineering costs. Under one brand alone, that cost couldn't be amortized across as many sales, resulting in a higher MSRP and even lower sales. Toyota also does not have an engine at all conducive to this kind of duty in their lineup now that the 2ZZ is gone. A clean-sheet bespoke engine would blow the budget completely. Subaru were able to simply de-turbo their new cross-platform engine. Toyota also own a pretty decent stake in Subaru, so it's not quite so foreign a partner as, say, BMW. That partnership only made sense because there is virtually zero cross-shopping between Z4 and Supra buyers, leading to really really big economies of scale to offset the German cost bloat.
@@JETZcorp yeah I get it, but that's supposed to be done with lower-tier models because sharing the same basic design makes them cheaper. But, on the other hand, you're paying a very high price for a top-end sportive and even worse, with a very hyped previous Gen which put the expectations very high. I don't know who thought that would be a good idea specially with the criticism that other makes got after doing the same.
@dnor16 Well, in both cases it works though. The Supra and Z4 are both very low volume with low crossover, so together, they just move enough volume to exist without costing Ferrari California money. With the 86 and BRZ, the fact is that it's the most affordable RWD sports car sold, and therefore easily one of the most successful. It has been ages and ages since anyone has been able to challenge the Miata on price and sales numbers, but this development-share program with parts-bin powertrain got them there. I'm glad it's here, because a real sports car that ordinary people can actually buy is extremely precious and important. If the car was $10,000 more expensive, it would be dead on arrival. There used to be tons of charming little sports cars, and they all priced themselves out of existence. That all said, how sweet would it have been if Toyota had partnered with Honda instead of Subaru? Imagine a K24-powered 86/S2000. Of course, those two hate each other like cats and dogs.
@@JETZcorp I mean, yes. But basically you're paying a lot of money for a product that is supposed to be the flagship of your make. It's like you buy a top omega watch and in fact have the internals of another brand with similar price. It's just not on. And for Mazda, mentioning the Miata isn't a good example, I would put mention the RX7 instead because of the model. And again, I'm not against it but only with low and mid tier models because that makes them affordable. If my memory doesn't fail me, I read somewhere about an interview with a Toyota executive and assured that the next gen will be 100% designed in house.
your statistics and data gathered are great but you know..... TOYOTA should be doing this or SHOULD have done this to begin with not a private individual... Shame on Subaru, and Toyota.
I can almost guarantee they knew about it, but considered the people that would actually track it with speciality tires and the skill level to be far and few. What they didn’t expect is for the track community to be so vocal.
The car, as designed, was targeted at street use. They engineered it for that purpose. Given the response from the enthusiast community and the after-market response, they probably thought the enthusiast community would figure the situation out with the gen 2 cars too.
Great in depth video on the oiling issues on the FA24 motor! Thanks you using the Accusump and supporting us. Let us know if there is any additional support we can provide. As a side note we also provide rebuilding and testing of the Accusump units throughout it's life cycle as well. Miles @900BRZ also had a great video highlighting the Accusump vs dry sump sets as well.
@@boom2055 Want to do Race Car things, buy Race Car parts... absolute disgrace that you would think a factory street legal car should come with a dry sump setup
I used to suffer from a similar pressure drop with a factory oil pan. The engine application was a 1988 Toyota Celica GTS (3SGE). The oil pickup is under cylinder 1, which is the right side of the vehicle. Any hard or prolonged right turn had the result of a massive oil pressure drop as the oil moved left. I solved this issue by purchasing the Moroso 20935 oil pan. The key to that oil pan is the hinged doors that surround the oil pickup - they allow oil flow inward, but prohibit oil evacuation. This oil pan also increased the total capacity from 4qt up to 6qt. That 1 modification resulted in virtually zero oil pressure drop around any/all prolonged right hand turns (90mph @ 7000rpm) - rough time estimate is 5-6 seconds. That turn is relatively flat. I don't know which oil pan you have, but perhaps something similar to that would be beneficial.
@@AnsixAuto 900BRZ seems to have come up with a solution with a larger pan that does require removal of the OEM header to install but it still works with it.
Subbed. Super interested in this content despite being nowhere near this car as a focus st owner. Super weird this is happening on a car that was almost certainly tested in hard, on track conditions. The work to mitigate this will be instrumental in this car's competitive viability.
im guessing since it went unnoticed toyota didnt test anything. or even worse they tested it saw this happening said screw it the customers wont notice till its too late. no way this would have went unnoticed by people who designed and tested the car when avg joes are seeing it on sunday funday track days after 10 seconds of driving.
Crazy seeing so many people upset about this when the video has a low cost solution. (Great job BTW) This isn't a BRZ problem, most stock engines have this problem on track. Once you put those track tires on you've added a lot of lateral Gs to the equation. Not only will you starve the pickup but you also don't have the oil capacity to sustain hard track use without checking and adding oil. Going dry sump is pretty extreme unless it's a track only car, very few cars have a well engineered bolt on solution but lots of drift guys have had to make their own. Lots of great videos out there but it still takes a lot of testing and tuning to prevent starvation. Yeah Toyota had ads showing the car on a track but that doesn't mean it's a factory race car. It's a platform on which to build whatever you want.
I'm picking up my 2023 BRZ limited in a month. I ordered it about a month before the actual cause of the engine blowups was discovered, back during the RTV craze (not saying the RTV isnt an issue but I don't think it alone will blow your engine up). This video is great at analysing the solutions for this issue that actually work. Earned my sub.
My friend has a GT86 and it was killed this way when he did a circle burnout. Oil starvation. All main bearings were spun, crank ruined, rods hot/blued, pistons scored, metal shavings everywhere. They quoted 10000€ for a new engine and install and he had bought the car for ~28000€
Thanks for all the analysis. The visualizations in the beginning are great. Surprising the see just how significantly lower your nominal pressure was with the JR radiator+cooler+OE heat exchanger. I covered some of the nuances with Accusumps in my last video, particularly the idea that they can discharge oil at idle, since the pressure will drop to around 15 PSI once you are at operating temperature. I’ve seen a manual valve or an electronic value used for this. Which direction did you take? If the latter, what is triggering the solenoid to open the circuit to the accumulator?
Taking a closer look at the video, it looks like it’s a manual valve. Have you worked out a specific procedure for trying to keep the accumulator charged when you start/end sessions so you avoid a 2+ qt overfill?
For daily driving, we would rev up the engine and increase the oil pressure to fill up the Accusump. We would wait a couple seconds and close the valve to store the extra volume. For the whole track day, we just leave the valve open. We haven't seen any negative effects from having some extra oil in the sump when driving around at low rpms. With the manual valve, any time there is a pressure differential, it will either fill or discharge.
@@AnsixAuto That’s great that you’re seeing good results without evidence of burning oil with such a simple accumulator setup!
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@@AnsixAuto how much do you rev it? could you describe what would be the procedure for after a track day and driving home? As someone who goes to the ridge with a brz I'll be replicating this setup since it seems to be the most effective solution so far.
@ I'd check with Accusump first, but another way to do it would be to bleed the air out of the accusump after track days, then pre-charge it once more before a track day.
I've been dreaming about buying this car for a while...3 months ago i was about to realize my dreams but thank god i've heard news about this issues. Now i'm the proud owner of a gorgeous MX-5 2.0 rf and i LOVE it.
i got my brz anyway its a summer roadster/beach cruiser. its crazy all the dudes on here complaining about the car not being able to do what they want without modifications. or people who depend on warranties cause theyre poor and cant afford to fix their car when they break it. bros if you want a race car BUY a race car dont buy a street car and expect it to do race car things in stock format. “BUt tOyoTA sAiD iT rACe cAr bRO” yes. they did and you know what? drs used to say smoking is healthy. dont believe everything you see and be smart enough and financially well off enough and you can have a good time. if youre a poor go buy a honda and be gay
You need a deeper truncated & quad baffled (with doors) sump to add more capacity and oil control. You may find there is no longer a need for the Accusump, and all of the other changes you've already made work well. Good luck on this mission.
Literally validated me buying the gen1 hakone because I knew the data and aftermarket for the motor setup was ALREADY established... I didn't want to risk an engine with changed geometry and thuse different assembly standards... didn't expect it to happen so soon on stock motors, more so failure on nodding but between the pick up sealant obstructions and this it's been a "thank God I'm paranoid" event for me
the permament fix is a deeper oil pan and revised pickup design a accusump and a cooler is a band-aid for bad design killer-b makes a replacment sump that replaces both the upper and lower pan and has a flap valve to prevent the oil from getting trapped in the timing cover mid corner which is what the problem accually is
If you make the oil pan lower it'll be the lowest point of the car excluding the wheels and tires. Hitting your oil pan on a speed bump could be costly.
Thanks for all this! Great initial results. Really curious for your next results with the accusump testing. This issue is what stopped me from buying a GR86 myself. If I can see more data showing we can fix the issue for a relatively reasonable price I will be interested in buying one again. :)
Gotta be careful overfilling oil to try and correct for oil PSI drops. Not only can it cause a massive mess when that oil gets into somewhere it shouldn't be, but also just dumping more oil in with the self reasoning: "Now it can't *all* slosh away under G loads and leave the pickup dry, right?" isn't great as it's not correcting the actual problem, just band-aiding the issue at best. Not only that but overfilling your engine with oil kills horsepower, and it kills it fast. The guys on Engine Masters did an episode about that very thing; with the takeaway info at the end being basically underfill your car around half to a full quart below what the OEMs suggest to basically unlock that mythical "free horsepower" everyone wants. They even joked about going even further on lower oil levels to gain even more power, but reasoned the pro of more power would meet the con of possibly having no oil lubrication in situations would inversely meet each other exponentially faster the lower you went.
As a blind EJ Subaru era fan I can say it's down right disgraceful this was not caught during the FA24 engine development. A 3cylinder GR86 needs to be a thing. Thank you for taking the time to make this quality summary
Thanks for your Great input/work on this issue. I’ve been watching for any updates as they come out. Love my BRZ and since I dont track it hope it will last a long time without failure. Planning on going to 5W30 engine oil on my next oil change, I find the 0W20 oil is being used and hope the heavier oil will not get pushed past the low tension piston rings. Consumption is well within factory specs but it still an annoyance as I watch my level constantly because of the oil pressure drop. Do I drive it hard on twisty roads? Oh yes we all do I’d say and even any slight drop in pressure worries me. Will Subaru/Toyota do anything?? My thoughts, NO they won’t. These cars are on their way out and for the very few that might blow up, cheaper to just replace those odd engines. If a better car comes out I’ll buy one BUT for now I feel you can’t beat these cars for the price on entry and the fun behind the wheel fills my heart with excitement. So much hype about EVs and hybrids but for me it’s NOT about MPG, it’s about driving and performance fun behind the wheel. Good luck everyone 🏎🏎😁😁
Fantastic presentation. I am very interested in your thoughts on how your car and team have successfully tracked your car even with those low pressure moments.
I recall that when the 86/BRZ came out, it was just supposed to be an affordable fun car to drive - rear wheel drive and manual. It came fitted with Prius tyres so you could have more fun at the limit! It's maybe a bit much to expect a budget car to handle high g-forces when on slicks doing track days. Lots of cars suffer from this sort of problem in these conditions. I had an LS1 based car that had the same issue, which I solved with a baffled sump. So, is this really a screw-up? More like built to a budget. It's not a GT3.
People complaining Subaru should have done this from factory must be new to Subarus because most Subaru owners that track their car have known this oil starvation issue since the EJ engines meaning forever.
The original 86/BRZ were also sold as a fun and affordable vehicle to put on the track. Part of the design was being able to fit 4 spare tyres in the vehicle by folding down the rear seats after all. The original FA20s also don't have this issue funnily enough.
Want to do Race Car things, buy Race Car parts... absolute disgrace that people would think a factory street legal 30k car should come with a dry sump setup...
Fantastic analysis and thank you for putting this together. I'm hoping that implementing some of your recommended changes (excluding significant complexity updates like an accusump) will be sufficient for those of tracking on street tires without aero.
I'm not sure why people think the accusump is so complicated. It's a 20 minute install yet people spend hours dropping the oil pan, cleaning the rtv, and installing a baffle.
@@AnsixAuto I've always heard about it being an expensive/complicated install but have to admit your video/comments make it seem relatively easy and straightforward. Something to look into for sure.
Very professional, Thank you for sharing. I wanted to buy the BRZ so much but now I think I will regret it. I don't mind blowing up the engine, I just know that auto mechanics near me (even Subaru's) are not professional enough to deal with this (both to make them take responsibility and to actually replace an engine with everything working well after). I think I might wait till the face lift, maybe they will address it.
Do you have absolute oil pressure shown anywhere? Percent of average oil pressure doesn’t help support your first goal of increasing overall oil pressure.
Its not just thr BRZ. Its every subaru boxer engine EVER. The BRZ is the car that amplifies the problem the most because it is capable of the best handling.
The move to timing chains likely made the issue worse since it opened up more volume in the engine for the oil to go. The newer pickup on the FA24 is likely a worse design compared to the older motors.
I had to drive a kid with one these cars home one morning. He was trying follow my 328i on the back road and I saw bunch white smoke... In the rear view. He told me the car only had 5k on it wonder if he had this oil issue.
This is honestly a known thing with all subaru engines. Most wrx’s need a new oil pan and oil cooler before racing. People just think it’s a toyota and can beat the shit out of it without it blowing up. It still is a entry level car. Some things should be done regardless.
300V is certainly good. You'll have to shorten the oil change intervals because it absorbs water faster and it's not so nice on the cats if you still have them in your car.
Terrific video; concise and comprehensive. Both Subaru and Toyota need to take a good hard look at specifying such a light oil with the first change at 15,000km. Completely inappropriate for track focused car. I changed mine at 1500km and again at 5000km (Amsoil 5W-30 Signature). This issue aside, what a fantastic car :)
What's really disgraceful is their pride and arrogance in this issue with them claiming their is no flaws whatsoever in their engine design. Then proceeding to essentially shift blame to people using the car on the track. Yet, they MARKETED the car with race car drivers behind the wheel, and the vehicle being handled with intent to be used on the track. I mean their ENTIRE excuse and reason for refusing to turbo the car is that the car is a "track/circuit," car. Yet when making a right TURN the car blows? Their failure to take accountability and acknowledge this flaw is nothing short of pure ARROGANCE.
986 boxster a had the same problem. I think many cars aren’t meant to be used on track. The oil systems just aren’t meant to work under those conditions. Dry sump seems to be a necessary upgrade if you will serious track work with any car.
Not sure why oil weight is still be debated, BRZ/86 runs 5w-40 oil for hard-usage is listed in Japanese owner booklet since 2012 if you open STI japan for BRZ parts or TOYOTA site for GR86. What oil do they sell for your car? 5w-40. You can't even find oil in any other weight on the STI parts site for BRZ. again , that is since 2012
Back in the day, it was proven to run 10w40 mobil 1 high milage on b series vtec motors as it will burn less. 10-40w is good, but in these high heat in the states i would even try mobil 15w-50 for track
Absolutely that would be the right move. We recommend deciding on the oil weight based on the operating oil temperatures so the viscosity can be matched.
Really like the video, and glad the accusump system might not be as daunting to deal with as 900BRZ presented. One question this video leaves me with: What oil coolers have less pressure drop? I have the Jackson Racing dual cooler on my 1st gen that I daily/weekend autoX so this has me questioning my choice.
Most air to oil coolers should have less pressure drop than the radiator and cooler combo. With that said, we're going to design a cooler kit using a lower resistance core.
Very good recommendations, on the old gen a bigger/straiter oil pick up tube had a big effect on oil pressure, I wonder if the same thing is happening with the GR.
Please touch on why this is only happening to BRZ/GR86 and not the WRX also, since they both have the same engine. Id also love to see real world testing on the WRX on track
Funny enough, this issue is nearly identical to the 2ZZ from the 00-05 Celica GT-S. Specifically high G right hand turns causing oil pressure drops that starve the engine of oil, even more so in high RPMs. A Moroso oil pan that increases the oil capacity from 4.5L with the filter to 6L, along with an additional windage tray, and trap door baffle for the pickup. However accusump is a very helpful tool as well.
I'm very interested in the testing for how much the accusump affects the oil pressure. @900BRZ if Miles is willing to share how he setup the solenoid to open the accusump that'd be greatly appreciated. Appreciate the hard work and information share from both of you guys @AnsixAuto. I'm surprised the Verus Eng baffle has gotten to testing so quickly I already got a Kazama Auto baffle in anticipation that the Verus was going to take longer.
The Accusump won't change the actual operating oil pressure, but from our testing it seems to reduce the occurrences and severity of pressure drops. We will do back to back testing in September. In regards to baffles, I don't believe there are any designs that will prevent the pressure drops from the cresting corners. If the Verus is a vertical design, it certainly won't address that.
> if Miles is willing to share how he setup the solenoid to open the accusump that'd be greatly appreciated. This is still in development. He’s planning to try it this weekend in a permanently open configuration since we haven’t had time to do all the programming necessary to integrate it with the CAN data.
We have plans to develop an automated valve system for the Accusump as well. Since we have oil pressure data and we will program the logic to decide when the motor needs support from the Accusump. When the motor doesn’t need it, the excess volume will be stored inside the Accusump.
This car should have been an FA24 turbo. No oiling problems, and a swan song to outgoing ICE because power to weight ratio would've made it one of the great blue collar sports cars of all time. Instead they chose this, this anemic NA power plant that rips it self apart in first month of ownership. ICE going out with a whimper.
C'mon, it's faster than the WRX FA24 turbo as it is being in a lighter car and still has the 7500rpm redline. The FA24 is a dramatic improvement on the FA20 in power delivery already. Using the Ascent engine with a 6000rpm redline and losing the NA throttle response would *not* make for a better sportscar. Just look at the dyno plots, the FA24 performs just as well as the benchmark Honda K24 now (if not slightly better in some ways). The idea that the FA24 NA engine is anemic is ridiculous. The Ascent WRX engine is not a fun engine. The NA FA24 is not the best twin-cam (flat-)four ever, but is a *lot* better than the bland turbo Ascent engine. Quality of power is better than quantity of power. One of the last old-school NA sportscars, that's just as quick as a Honda S2000 now, is the exact opposite of ICE going out on a whimper. Especially when the alternative is having a bland SUV engine that only revs to 6000rpm...
@@TassieLorenzo it would be same engine with turbo and only ever so slightly heavier because of intercooler. Plus huge margin for tuning unlike the asthmatic NA version.
@@idokwatcher2062 But turbocharged (four cylinder) engines are not nice to drive, no? They have doughy throttle response. They don't react instantly as the throttle is cracked, unlike an NA engine. I had a couple of turbocharged vehicles, an old school GC8 WRX and a modern Renault 2.0 turbo and I just don't like them. Of the two, the GC8 was preferable as at least the turbo lag followed by surge of boost was exciting, the Renault (being more modern, twin-scroll) just simulated a V6 engine: but one that sounded and felt like a blender, not nice at all. In either case, they were just not nice compared to the responsiveness and linearity of a naturally aspirated (VTEC!) engine. While the FA24 is not quite a K24, it's pretty close now. (and it still meets emissions regulations unlike the Honda engine, so well done Subaru!) :) The current WRX engine seems awful by comparison, it's truly a SUV engine put into a sport compact. At least the GC8 EJ20 revved to 7000rpm in the Australian model (8000rpm in the Japanese model). The FA24 WRX only revs to 6000rpm, it's ridiculous. It's like a *really mediocre* simulation of a flat-six... In any case, the notion the current GR86/BRZ is asthmatic is just not right. It's plenty quick. It does the 1/4 mile in about 14.0sec flat, no? Any sluggishness of the old 2.0L version is well and truly fixed. It's totally fine and perfectly zippy now, no? My GC8 Impreza would have been what, 280hp (with VF34 turbo) & 1270kg and ~13.5sec quarter-mile and that was somewhat zippy, and the BRZ is now 240hp (but no lag and MUCH wider powerband and MUCH closer gearing) & 1270kg and maybe 14.0 sec quarter mile. The BRZ seems perfectly adequate as is and that it has no turbo is *precisely* what is great about it! If you want to add boost to a GR86 or BRZ you could always do a supercharger, which keeps a lot of the NA driving characteristics and is far preferable to a turbocharger IMO.
The only subarus I know which run reliably on track have either a dry sump, or an accusump ! Every other car gets rod knock ! IMO accusump is a must for all subaru performance applications , use a manual switch not a electronic one as they are not reliable !
The newer designed solenoids we are using has helped with that issue of reliability. We have gone through several iterations before settling on the current design (i.e part #24-270X).
After years of building racing engines, I strongly recommend liquimoly mos2 additive EVERY oil change. I have 300,000 to 500,000 miles on all my cars. Read up on it. It will take 3 oil change intervals for it to stay optimal. Read up on WHY mos2 was made. I take my car to the track twice a week.
It's insane that this somehow made it through testing on what I can imagine was a car that was tested fairly often on a track. I'm curious if they had any failures during testing and just said "oh well". I wouldn't be surprised if issues were found, a calculation was made on the chances of this happening based on expected amount of users to actually drive the car on a track within the warranty period, and then weighed that with the cost of a redesign. A less evil "ford pinto" calculation of odds, but still shitty if this is the case. Also, man VIMC is such a nice twisty track. That cresting chicane at the middle is a wild ride. Scary but fun as hell to attack.
There's an inherently difficult challenge to manage the oil pickup with a wet sump and a boxer configuration. Could they have tested and designed it better? We think so. Will they change the design? Unlikely. Yah the chicane in the middle takes some experience to attack. It can go really wrong if you're not careful about how you brake for it.
The thought has crossed our minds. We were looking at the Valvoline VR1. A lot of how you choose a weight of oil to use depends on the operating temperature of your oil. If you can keep your oil nice and cool, there's less of a need to go thicker.
Yes now go get a dry sump. This is a known problem for all boxer engines ever and the fact that it's not done from factory is because Subaru/Toyota need to keep costs low to increase production numbers to reach as many customers as possible and because they don't expect people to take the BRZ/GT86/FRZ throw race grade tires on them and go rip them through corners. All you are doing is avoiding an obvious and necessary modification for racing. Okay salt aside. It's a good thing you are calling attention to this issue. Boxer engines come with advantages and disadvantages, this is one of them. Im happy your fix worked out. Looks good and healthy. Happy racing.
@@AnsixAuto exactly my point. I think the fix you guys made is great. I hope I didn't come across as aggressive. It's just that as far as I'm aware every boxer engine ever in a car built for race purposes has to have a dry sump system or oil starvation issues when the cornering speeds gets fast enough. And hey honestly set up a "go fund my dry sump" and Id throw you some cash. Racing is always a good cause.
@@leogreck9984 It's not aggressive, we'd love a dry sump system but we can't justify the cost. The thought has crossed our minds to develop one but the market is too small since it's a very niche product. You could always throw us a "Super thanks" if you like what we're doing! 🤟
Maybe using liquimoly Ceratec would help prevent damage from oil starvation? And personnaly I would never run Xw20 oil in that car even for street use.
This car has a Subaru engine. Subaru's engines always have oil starvation. I have seen Subaru owners counteract these issues by running a higher pressure oil pump in their Subaru cars.
If everything is stock, the level of concern is less. We would suggest keeping the RPM's up when corner hard in case the pickup loses it's prime, it will recover faster with a faster pump speed.
I guess an accusump won't hurt wehter you use it on track or street, i think it could prevent a lot of engines failures if people knew about this product.
This is kinda similar to the situation Toyota ran into with the redesign of the Tacoma with incline climbing offroad, oil starvation seems like a common problem when TRD/GR products are put to the test.
