The USN Pacific Submarine Campaign - Hey, the torpedoes are working now! (Jul'43 - Dec'43) 

I've heard about brothers being separated to prevent one event from wiping out an entire family. Were brothers kept from serving together aboard US submarines during WW2? Know any interesting anecdotes on the subject?

Maybe a little out of context but.. Why don't you leave the link in the description to the previous episodes of the series?

Would a IIWW submarine in North Atlantic have problem with icing? Would high ice buildup make the submarine lay on its side instead of capsize (hatches closed)? I imagine that electrolyte in batteries would not like it and diesel would leak from bottom of the tanks... What else? Would high ice buildup make it impossible to submerge?

In Call of Duty Infinite Warfare, the protagonist receives combat promotion to captain of a carrier (though it's more like a battlecarrier because it can fight toe to toe with other warships). This gives the player the ability to command the ship to be able to go and engage on whatever missions they want to, despite all this power, they still fight on the frontline, my two questions on this are: when did captains/other naval officers stop being active participants in combat historically? and do you think their is a rank (either still in use or historical) that would suit the protagonist better?

On the topic of American Submarines, which of the deck guns (4”, 3”/50,5”/25, etc) were the most effective?

Fair point, I concur

Agreed!

Totally agree, Thank you Drach

Bro he pretty much reads all the comments.

Totally agree nobody comes even a close second 👏👏👏👏

Um, do you know how bureaucracy works? Then it is not 'unbelievable' at all. If the torps do now work, then several Admirals would have to be held in account for that. Navy bureaucracy is the same all all others....NOBODY wanted to take the fall for that messup.

That’s normal bureaucrat stuff.

Yes I know we are in a world war where every ship matters. But I signed my name onto this sign off sheet and didn’t actually do what I should have, so need to cover my butt

Never underestimate the lack of common sense among people in positions of leadership.

It means admitting you might have been wrong about something.

For the greater good. Even if American subs sink 10 trawlers they'd just cover it up to preserve the alliance.

NKVD officers interviewing the Trawler captain NKVD: so you where sunk Captain: yes by a American sub. NKVD: you mean a unkown sub. Captain: yes by a unkown sub.

Nah, the only reason you love the story is because your a redditor and thus a communist

In the wide open world sh*t happens sometimes, and the way you make up for it is to just say, _"Dude, we're sorry."_

​@@GeneralJackRippergoing by US Liberty attack, the political masters of US Navy will never ever demand Israel learn that lesson.

Perhaps he was an adherent of Tzeentch, and was playing the long game…

Khorne was prevented from claiming any from the US Navy, as the Navy's rage was fueling a different god...... Our boy ascended to Daemon Prince of King

Nah, he stayed loyalist. He ascended to the Angry Marines and was XO of the Litany of Litany's Litany.

I too served on Orion and, as you, it was had a very enlightening time aboard. I got off in 76 before she went to the Med. I wound up as LPO of 38a Shop, and as such, found that the "brass" was more than interested with what we had to say. Edit/additions: When I went aboard Orion, I was a skimmer engineroom guy. They sent me to every school for Auxiliaryman and more! I was surrounded with Submariners and people with extraordinary talents in their fields, machinists, welders, electricians, you name it! Never been with a better bunch of people! We pioneered many new ways of dealing with problems. I see pictures of current submarines, using tools and scaffolding that we developed back then, because of problems we encountered. No one "genius" but many experienced minds, working together! The USS Orion was the most stimulating command I was in! One of the coolest things we came up with (totally for our own purpose, by accident, in pursuit of submarine repair) was to use liquid nitrogen (waste product from O2 plant) to clean the shop. Open the doors, pour LN2 on the workbenches, then the floor, take a smoke break outside, go back in, sweep up a pile or so of dirt, everything is SHINEY clean! Presto! One time we did that, the XO said everybody had to turn to until he inspected the work area, leaving FT. Lauderdale, soon as he was done, I called him up to come inspect our shop, we passed and had 3 days off, while everyone else cleaned! We were rewarded with an "impossible" job, that the manufacture turned down, the shipyard turned down, of course, our division officer volunteered us for. We did it. It took awhile. Taking casings and rotors for some BIG roots.type blowers, nothing else, and turning them into working units. That's a story!

Especially after the detonator on the one torpedo he _didn't_ fire seemed to work fine after he got home...

Yeah but it was tested statically… in the field it would have most likely failed, and hopeful the captain knew that in his heart

@zedoktor979 That doesn't track. At the time, all they knew was that some tops exploded and others didn't; the one they brought back did. And once they did know, they found out the 'ideal' shots were the ones most likely to break the detonator. So there's little reason to think it performed better in testing than it would have in combat.

YOU LIE! There were no "working" Mark 14 torpedo's" in 1943... (late 1944 is more like it...)

​@@scottgiles7546A lucky Mark 14?

@@scottgiles7546 A Mark 14 that exploded in the right place at the right time was by definition a working torpedo. While most did not work, enough did to allow the BO to deny that there was anything wrong with them fo far too long.

Those super-firing 155 mm secondaries and their pedestals must’ve added an awful lot of tonnage to Yamato & Musashi. If they’d deleted those guns guns they could have also tucked their main battery in a lot closer and shortened their citadel.

Kimmel and Short were at Pearl Harbor...They were visible symbols of a catastrophe. Ralph Waldo Christie is obscure and his failure with the Mark 14 is not as visible, and was only known about in Navy circles, and that was nearly a year after now Rear Admiral Christie who was commander of submarines in the Southwest Pacific Theater. The man in charge of BuOrd at the time of the development of the Mark 14, who would have had a a role to play in it's failure was...check my notes here...The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Admiral William D. Leahy, who got the position after serving as CNO.

I think by the time they came to realize just how many avoidable defects were in the Mk14 and it became understood, they were balls deep in fixing it and getting the Mk18 sorted out. There really wasn't as much time and effort to spend on crucifying those who were likely not even in their pre-war positions anymore. Lockwood described how the torpedo factory at Sharon, PA, the BuORD, numerous submariners, and his own staff and friends who had ideas were all meeting and actually getting a handle on what was wrong and how to fix it in both torps. Cooperation had started to mesh and that would have been a bad time to start calling people out. Adm. King was keeping close tabs on it and that was good enough in terms of someone having your back as Lockwood needed.

Weirdly, I am going to side with not cashiering. That would send the message to never admit your mistakes. Monday QB: "You had to get these out without adequate testing. We are testing; I recommend you do some yourself." Open a door forward & invite to walk through together.

@@gochanging So much wrong here. "That would send the message to never admit your mistakes." No, it would send the message that you better find your mistakes before somebody else does. BuOrd had plenty of reasons and opportunities to perform "adequate testing", especially after the first reports from sub crews started arriving in early 1942. Instead they argued and blamed the sub crews for over a year without taking ANY action towards investigating potential issues. When one considers the downstream effects of all those failed attacks on Jap warships and cargo vessels, it is absolutely unthinkable that nobody involved was cashiered. And for you to imply that BuOrd "had to get these out without adequate testing" is asinine. The same arrogance which led BuOrd to blame sub crews for failed torpedo attacks, led them to not perform adequate testing. Yes, there was pressure to increase torpedo production quickly and not waste torpedos on testing. But a good officer would have pushed back hard, and insisted on applying basic scientific and engineering principles ("Does this thing work? How can we be sure?") before beginning full scale production.

It is called institutional bias --> MichState. OhioState. USC. UofMich. PennState. Catholic Church. Boy Scouts. Boeing. NASA. Countless others. If you're in an organization and they don't enthusiastically enforce rooting out rot you have rot.

When a mod breaks your Uboat session's physics engine:

I had a feeling that was behind the scene in "Op Petticoat". 😉 Do you know Why? Skipjack was skipped over for the necessaries?

It was 6 foot beyond the Bureau of Ordnance's comprehension.

@@neiloflongbeck5705word games are best games

​@@neiloflongbeck5705I see what you did there.

The frustration ran deep.

@@RCAvhstape I see what you're doing, and I'm groaning. take my thumbs up and get out.

One of the main reasons one part of the torpedoes failed so miserably, you mean. Basically no system on those things worked properly.

The essence of being overqualified for a job

@@SnakebitSTI Well, the propulsion seemed to work well enough to punch holes in hulls. Basically the torpedo was just a big solid shot bullet.

there were like a dozen guidance and firing system issues that had to be resolved. the best interum solution was to just switch to contact detonators and set the depth settings to run as high as possible

The magnetic detonators were really finicky and most of the time they would either detonate early, or fail to detonate. That led to crews switching to contact detonators, which only slightly increased their success rates. If I remember correctly the contact detonators were being crushed by the impact too quickly to activate. The gyros were also occasionally installed backwards causing the torpedoes to circle back on the submarines that fired them. This led to the submarine crews doing their own inspections of the torpedoes internals, which was then used by the bureau of ordinance to shift blame and justify not looking into their unreliability. A small number of submarines having successful patrols and sinking tens of thousands of tons of shipping each was similarly used as proof that the torpedoes worked. I remember when reading about it, it was really hard to not be frustrated with the bureau of ordinance. That the torpedoes were unreliable was exceedingly obvious with the information that was brought to them.

I hope your torpedos work now , my country has bought hundreds from you guys.

@@hellomoto2084 sadly (perhaps) we never got to fire warshot. But all the exercise torpedoes we shot worked just fine.

​@@hellomoto2084I hope your country didn't get screwed as well. Our navy really is world class but our politicians and contractors are run of the mill types.

Just curious, is there a tendency for the submarine to pop-up after a rather heavy torpedo is launched.

​@@Sherwoodyit really depends on what % of the ships weight the torpedo is. Midget subs where the torpedo is about 10% of the subs weight would buck wildly

@@justinreijnders8992 I’m thinking a full spread of 4 torpedoes would really throw off the buoyancy of the sub. I dive, and have occasionally dropped a weight. It can really throw you off.

How many of our subs were lost due to faulty torps. The Japanese Navy were really good with their submarine hunting skills.

I know it's been commented on ad nauseam, but the negligence in getting those Torpedoes to work was criminal and some of the brass needed to spend some time in the brigg.

“Impact”, indeed!

The war in the Pacific will be won a lot more shorter than predicted

Something similar happened with early German U-boat torps. They almost sank Warspite if not for a dud

@@kostakatsoulis2922 But it was fixed in a matter months.

@@FS2K4Pilot still hurt considering I'm pretty sure that wasn't the only capital ship they could've sunk

he was running a high temperture

the 14 is the success rate of detonation

When he was an aviator, President George Bush was rescued by a USN sub.

@@jameswoodbury2806 There’s even film of it that he used in his campaigns.

When he was the youngest officer in the entire USN!

Amazing stuff, the US submarines saved the lives of plenty of Australian POWs , Navy crew and downed Aussie pilots. Tragically they sunk a few Jap ships carrying Allied soldiers but ended up saving some of the men.

​@jameswoodbury2806 I saw an interview with bush talking about when his plane was shot down and losing his two crewmen. I think it was too. He was very emotional and felt completely responsible. I don't care for politicians either side of the aisle but Bush was a good man.

I wonder if any one has counted how torpedo souvenirs that Japanese ships took back to harbor.😁😁

In this context, it's worth pointing out that the Japanese didn't really have enough merchantmen to supply its Pacific acquisitions even before the USN started sinking them.

Kind of like 9/11 I guess -

I may have found him: Arthur Irvin Bair, Torpedoman's Mate, Third Class, of Wibaux, Montana? He's the only crewman from the USS Wahoo listed as being from Montana. There's a website called On Eternal Patrol that lists US submariners lost in WW2, you can see his profile and picture if you search him there.

IJN: Ok, we dodged the subs. (The sky starts to speak in R-2800 twin wasp ).

That in turn gave Admiral King second-hand rage which he rightly directed at BuOrd.

@@hawkeye5955 there’s a reason why I gave King the nickname “Admiral Omniman.”

​@@hawkeye5955 the only person that can bring the wrath of God down on the Bureau to start fixing those damn torpedoes.

Also why various forms of sneaky infantry gave up on all-black (save as a way to intimidate folks).

Yeah as it turns out, it's better to appear similar to your environment in all lighting conditions rather than trying to match the lighting conditions with your colors. Even so, the black paint jobs looked damn good.

I recall a very old article in a very old magazine about a very small and secret experiment during WW2 that used a novel form of night camouflage on aircraft to sneak up on surfaced U-boats. They covered the aircraft in lights. It was tested several times to good effect but the proliferation of air search radar made it useless. The test sub never spotted the plane until it heard the sound of engines.

@@GeneralJackRipperYehudi lights, yes. A very clever system.

@@wraithwyvern528 Ah, the good old SAS Pink Panther Landrovers are a classic example. Cool? Not really. Sneaky? Very much so!

Yep John Wayne did that same thing, don't remember the movie he,was,walking,with the aisle of Two canes does anyone know the movie. Thanks great video and God Bless that severed in WW2

USN Submarines: "We do a little trolling." *trollface*

It chokes me up a bit thinking about the final moments on Wahoo. Now on eternal patrol it certainly wasn't the ending anybody wanted. 🙏😔⚓️🇺🇲

I could try looking into it. Not sure if I’d be able to find anything or not

@@mistertagnan I'd love to hear about it if your turn anything up, but don't feel pressured or anything.

I still cringe out of my skeleton every time I watch a dogfight episode about Vietnam, just the missiles doing stupid sh*t like falling going the other way or failing to explode, and pilots don’t receiving any training leaving ww2 and korea veterans to carry the whole Air Force and navy on their shoulders. I don’t blame the pilots that leave for the civilian aviation during that time.

There was a reason they called them "missiles" and not "hitiles."

And the M16 as well, though that one was more deliberately sabotaged

@@BlackHawkBallisticThat was mostly thanks to the govt. changing the powder used in 5.56 ammunition and the fact that many users didn’t receive cleaning kits. Still a bureaucratic nightmare that got a lot of people killed, but not due to the rifle itself

That's McNamara's fault. He was too smart for his own good. @@BlackHawkBallistic

Really weird, I was just thinking of that and I read your comment. I read somewhere years ago that when some of the sub commanders received their boats they immediately started cutting down some of the superstructure and other bits to reduce that signature. Proving that those who were at Sea in the fight really did know best.

They had testing. In "controlled" environments. Which was the problem. The real world is anything but controlled.

It was the depression. Testing costs money. _"The More Money You Save In Peace Time - the More You Bleed In War."_ -Cracker Jack .

The key systems of the Mark XIV torpedo were developed by, and under the supervision of, officers who owed their promotions to the alleged advanced features of the torpedo's systems. Their patrons - officers high in the Navy's command structure - would have looked bad if testing revealed that the features that they'd heaped praise and promotions on were, in fact, poorly engineered and defective. The designers limited the tests to ones they knew the components would pass, and their patrons blocked attempts to have additional testing performed to protect their protégés...and their own reputations. As bad as the Mark XIV was, at least it got fixed. Others didn't. You can virtually guarantee that, by 1943 at the latest, a growing number of Japanese naval cryptologists knew that the IJN'S codes had probably been broken by the US. Problem: Those same codes were the brain-children of very highly-placed officers in the IJN, who had loudly and publically presented them as unbreakable. Saying that their precious codes had been broken (and by hairy, smelly, barely civilized Anericans, yet) was, at best, a guarantee of dismissal and disgrace. It could very well have resulted in death, either through a polite invitation, or through being accused of being defeatist and disloyal to the Emperor. So they kept using the same system of codes throughout the war...and the US kept reading them. The Germans made much the same mistake with Enigma. Although some late-war developments (the RS44 cipher, for example) may indicate a recognition that Enigma might not be *quite* as secure as Berlin kept insisting it was.

They were making so few torpedoes, a full testing regime would have left them with few if any remaining torpedoes to actually issue to the submarines. And where they were testing had different magnetic and hydrodynamic features than the South Pacific

@@haroldcarfrey4206 The physical detonators were unaffected by magnetism. And of course they should have tested where the torps would be used. There is no excuse for failing to sufficiently test weapons that lives depend on.

While the Japanese crew aboard now having a reason to be scared of a very angry American.

Fluckey's book about his time commanding Barb is a riot. The man was ballsy, very good, and very lucky.

Barb was shitposting on japan irl. i can only imagine its machine spirit giggling all the way back to the main fleet after the locomotive incident.

@@scooterdescooter4018 singing praises to the Omnissiah the entire way

I can really recommend the podcast / youtube channel The Unauthorized History of the Pacific War. They really go into submarine warfare, and have great guests like their official wingman Jon Parshal and also Drachinifel for a few topics.

Mustang officer? Elaborate pls

​@@LuckyFlanker13i think he means Spruance

@@CharlesYuditsky is he implying that Fletcher got all the credit for a victory that should’ve belonged to Spruance?

@@LuckyFlanker13 i think so

​@@LuckyFlanker13 mustang officer is term used for an officer who started their navy career as an enlisted member, generally rising to Chief Petty Officer, before getting a commission to officer

Thank you for saying it. Apparently no one owns dictionaries any longer. See the repeated confusion regarding the words "ordinance" and "ordnance" that plagues comment sections of military-related videos.

Submarine Crews: GET HIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Sub crews pull out torches and pitch forks).

"The torpedo is fine, you incompetent, lowlife sailors just keep breaking them." Until pressure from within the Navy command structure became strong enough to overcome the need to protect a fellow ring-knocker by *not* admitting that his design was an abject failure. Note: "Ring knocker" refers to the alleged act of tapping one's Annapolis class ring on the table as a signal for all other Academy graduates to rush to one's defense.

They did not have a choice, Admiral God of Wrath have threatened to attached them to the Torpedoes if they do not solve the issues 😂

Once launched Mr Torpedo is nobody's friend. The Mighty Jingles. Random WoWS videos. In WoWS I once got a same team kill driving USS St Louis at maximum range with one hit. 😮

It baffles the mind…

Thanks!

Still a bit snowy on the Kenai as well. I agree on it being a good video

He has a nice video about the Mk-14 called 'Failure like Onions'

​@@GeneralJackRipperLayeeeerrrsss.

@@GeneralJackRipper Yep, seen it several times. :)

And quite a few PT and Submarine officers were rapidly trained Reservists.

Lawn darts were way more lethal than the early mk14s

​@@hauptmann6 well getting hit by a very dull lawn dart really hurts when it hits your shoulder.

So was the bowfin

You don't aim for a glancing shot, you just shoot on a less than ideal trajectory.

"resolve the impact forces in two planes" as it is said in colloquial Engineer speak.

Rear Admiral S.Skinner ( USN, BuOrd )

Because it won't fit on thr sub's deck? The old single 5"/25 guns were as big as could manage, if they could find some.

@@christopherreed4723 bah, logic means nothing when it comes to “Moar Dakka”. If US ships can eventually end up with an improbable amount of AA guns, blaging a twin 5” turret onto a subs deck can’t be any harder. You just need to be creative. ;P

@@garygenerous8982 Well, I *suppose* you could weld two Gatos together. By bridging the foredecks you *might* be able to fit the turret ring of the twin 5"/38 onto the result. The below-deck structures - machinery room, powered ammo lifts, magazines etc - would require some very serious engineering gymnastics to shoehorn into the sub, though. And the result would still look like a prop from Waterworld. 😄

@@christopherreed4723 see there is the ingenuity I was talking about ;P

​@@christopherreed4723 or just make a mother of all Submarine Cruisers.

Absolutely!