Hi Olaf I am the fourth generation of luthiers / restorers in the Uk. I have experienced a few instruments with this problem The violin almost certainly has oil varnish for which, the early coats have not been allowed to set. The earliest instruments I have experienced with this problem were From the Forster family and other contemporary makers. In these instruments the base coats of oil varnish did not have a chance to set before the last coats were applied. Over the years the sub-surface coats did set causing the top coats to ‘cracquel’. Sadly makers from the 1960s as you said, made the same mistake; too few thick coats which take forever to dry in the sun-less UK. The instrument you have is a classic example. I would not be surprised if in a year the customer returns with the same problem recurring. You are very lucky in having a close equivalent of the ‘cremona’ sun which has high UV levels to set the varnish. I would have stripped the varnish and re-varnished the instrument which will solve the problem completely. It is not something I feel comfortable doing as you are not ‘restoring’ the varnish and `I certainly would not consider doing it to the instruments from Circe 1860 as the cracqulled varnish is a feature. Ironically, I am re-varnishing (matching the original colour and style of course) a lesser known maker’s viola at the moment. It has taken two years so far but I am not in favour of UV cabinets which over-cook the varnish. I wish you good luck Adrian
I would probably kill you if you re varnished any of my violins whilst I was alive. If the varnish becomes sticky, then it is not balsam varnish, just someone who put spirit varnish on then oil varnish or a so called French polish, or just used boiled linseed oil to shine it up for sale? Who knows, however it looks like a pink colour so just worry about it being a liar who bought a violin in the white and used crappy German 70s viscous varnish from a Getman varnish making firm. The colour could be called Salmon. It is vile. Well done to keep that vile pink colour...
Yes, I've experienced some amazing crackling on a Foster cello. That's often a harder varnish on top of a softer varnish... That pretty much needs regular polishing to manage. Some varnishes will pretty much always be soft in an Australian summer. Also oil varnishes with too much oil to resin ratios. So many challenges as a violin maker and restorer 😀
This can happen with spirit varnishes too. At least one of the recipes for Vernice Bianca includes either rock candy or honey. Over 2 years ago I bought a mostly finished cello on the cheap seemingly constructed by a famous luthier's son. All measurements were perfect but the spirit varnish was very sticky. I didn't like the finishing job and the instrument shortly developed a crack in the ribs which I repaired. I've stripped away the varnish on the soundboard and partially refinished (including 5 layers of pre-varnish preparations) at least 4 or 5 times until I'm finally getting satisfied. This will end up being a superb instrument worth at least 5 times the price but I've spent hundreds of dollars/pounds/Euros and huge amounts of time to make it so.
I HAD A VIOLIN THAT HAD THIS PROBLEM. I USED A LACQUER SEALER WITH VINYL IN IT. THE MAKER WAS USING BEE PROPULUS THAT WASN'T WASHED WELL ENOUGH. WAS ABLE TO WORK OUT A NON STICKY SURFACE THAT HAS BEEN STABILIZED OVER 5 YEARS AGO. I SAVED ORIGINAL FINISH. THIS VIOLIN WAS CRAFTED IN 1995 IN CHATTANOOGA, TN. BY W.G. THOMASSON. HIS VIOLINS ARE CONCERT QUALITY, & BEAUTIFULLY RED.
At that point, I thought you would have to remove all the old varnish and revarnish everything back. I was really confused when you said you needed to be careful not to remove the varnish.
If it's an expensive violin ($30,000+) revarnishing it would depreciate its value enough to not be worth it. Just sell it and get a different one if it's affecting your playing
@@dingdongsilver4783 well, if it is to the point in which you would think to sell it and buy a different one, I think the selling price for the sticky varnish violin would be low enough for it to make sense to look at the possibility of revarnishing, for a lower overall expense.
@@tttITA10 you would think that, but the appraiser at the auction is 100% of the time going to rather have a sticky original than a re-finished instrument. You'll be looking at a $10,000 depreciation minimum, and likely more. It could end up making your 30k fine violin worth a couple thousand (I've seen it before)
@@tttITA10 now, if somebody who knows what they're doing does it then it could affect it less, but most people aren't okay with taking a $10,000 hit on their investment. It's the uncertainty of it. Nobody knows what gives the violin the fine violin sound that commands 10's and 100's of thousands of dollars. And removing the original varnish is going to push most buyers to a different instrument, and auction companies know this. Certification companies do too.
It looks so much nicer. I have experienced a tacky varnish. A new violin and no AC in the house. I had the perfect imprint of my tee shirt collar on the back.
Dear Olaf , I had a friend that made a violin for me and I put this fancy balsamic varnish , this was 2021 and It has remained sticky .I recently , only the last few days started watching your great videos . I do love playing so fortunately I have another violin (as it was just too sticky to use) .But I took out my sticky but beautiful violin and would you believe it ! the varnish had cured after all that time and as I was viewing one of your videos !! It is just so to play
I think the real reason they used sticky varnish in the 70's was intentionally so dust would stick to it. I think a shag violin totally speaks to the 70's aesthetic.
the naturally worn but polished and maintained look is a really great look! just don't understand why you would want to keep that varnish on at all in this case since it's new and crappy, would have honestly preferred to have it removed completely and redone the correct way if it was my instrument since its like faulty
I had a fiddle just like that. Soft varnish. The instrument used to stick to the case. I lightly sanded it back and then laboriously French Polished it to an acceptable finish. It worked and sounds a treat. 😉
And to add something a bit funny: you reminded me when you said " I still end up with furry violins" at 17:14 you reminded me of Arthur (mentioned in my earlier comment) who at one period in his time as a luthier (let's call it his "Polar Opposite Of A Golden Period hehe) used varnish that was *much too soft* ! The owners of his newly-made violins would leave them in the case for just a day or two in typical 30 degree summer weather and when they pried the violin out of their case [with great force] they were then in possession of a violin aptly named: "a fine violin, *suede* edition" hahaha. I took one of these violins to my friend who works at a local music shop to sell the instrument on consignment. He said "sorry, but we don't deal in velour products".
Also, tree rosin prevents varnishes (and drying oils in general) from setting. In general woodworking, woods with high rosin contents may need to be sealed with shellac before applying varnish or oil. Don't know if spruce has much rosin, though.
I remember in the 70's they were experimenting with varnishes, trying to find the "Strad secret" or some such. Do you think this is what caused them to experiment with balsa/resin based varnishes or was it more of a reaction to the inability to procure shellac amid the meteoric rise of synthetic varnishes that was occurring at that time? I'm a trades person well past middle age (so too late to change trades) but your craft fascinates me. Thank you for making these videos, I'm sure they are extremely useful to musicians and beginning luthiers alike.
Great video Olaf, my fellow Aussie! (I'm in Perth). The last ten years of my life has been varnishing violins and violas: either for ones I've made, or on Chinese instruments in the white, or even repairs (which is the most common, as you may well know!) I too have experience the horrible hard varnish over soft. It crackled all over (or as a friend of mine said "it looks *crazed* " which was a new term to me). May I ask what varnish you used, the one you said was slightly harder than the softer varnish underneath? I was given a great tip by my teacher Arthur Robinson, who sadly passed away in January, and that tip was: add lavender oil to a harder varnish as this will give it a 'forgiving' quality. Although this works wonderfully, the instrument does then need to hang up for twice as long in a cabinet with UV lights pointed at it. Is this adding-of-lavender something you've heard of? Also, in very extreme cases, adding a clove of garlic into linseed oil and heating it up and gradually adding that garlic/linseed combo gradually into an amber-based varnish? Many many many many things I have learned over the years and I've never been happier with my results! My first few varnish attempts were horrendous.... but we live and we learn and of course we must learn from our mistakes! All the best and thank you for the interesting video.
Would it not be simpler to partially strip off most of the old varnish and apply a new varnish? To me if there's a problem with the original finish, then just cleaning it means that the problem will come back later. Applying a harder varnish on top seems like opening a can of worms for potential incompatibility or flaking issues. This is not something I'd consider on an old violin, but this one is not old.
Wow! Beautiful work! Had that problem with my own violin; guess that this trend passed through Canada as well ... but really enjoyed the video to understand better the process of cleaning!
Watching this again - the final result looks great! I may even ask you to do some projects for me! :) Since my teacher (Mr Arthur Robinson) passed... I've struggled to get anything done... He left me one jar of great varnish but it's now running out. I could probably do the front and sides of one violin and have to French polish the back.... Did you ever meet him Olaf? Anyway, all the best. Happy 2023!
Thanks for showing that. I have to deal with one where the varnish (might be shellac or shellac based) has crazed quite deeply. I'm considering rubbing back the thick areas a little etc & then following up with linseed oil & metho (like french polish without the added shellac). It depends if the client is prepared to pay enough for it though. BTW, I have found MicroMesh to be very useful, both the sheet form & padded form for rubbing back.
I learn so much watching you! I sometimes get "ideas" to try on my own violin but your videos have stopped me, thankfully, because you have expertise and not just wild "what if", lol. I am grateful to learn and respect the instrument, thank you!
I have a violin made in the early 1980s with soft oil varnish with this issue to a much lesser extent. When I lived in cold climates it wasn't an issue but now that I live in the tropics, I have some crazing where my left hand touches the body. I have to dust the rosin off religiously.
Olaf, does the very hot Australian climate cause any extra problems with varnish? Do you have any recommendations for people in a hot climate as well as a cool damp climate like the UK?
excellent video! how much did this repair cost if i may ask? I have a problem on one of my instruments that likw an eighth of the top deck has been revarnished very poorly and the colour doesn't match the rest, how much do you think it could cost to repair that?
Keep thinking Child tooth cream and a gentle cloth to 'buff' the sticky varnish smooth. But then again, dunno how the tooth cream will react to the varnish etc.
This is my guess regarding stickiness: Oil varnishes curing in cold or wet conditions will remain sticky eternally even if the varnish is capable of curing properly under ideal conditions. I believe this to be a function of the varnish having too much time to draw moisture if the curing process is exceedingly slow. In such conditions the rate of polymerization (curing) is low compared to the rate of saponification, causing stickiness.
I actually came to your channel today in search of an answer to a varnish related question. Why are you reddisent to simply remove all the varnish and start over, especially in a case like this?
The issue of dust being embedded with varnish is what constantly annoys me when applying varnish to artworks and/or adding ground for surface. If too much is applied it too can be a non-drying nightmare.
hello Olaf, thank you for your time and videos, a job like the one you made it? how much is? [so i can prepare the wallet] my Violin started to be a bit sticky and need a new bridge Thank you!
The spruce in the top is quite good. The "lines" look very narrow. After sanding, can you cure the varnish a bit better with applying UV light curing (polymerisation)?
Dear Olaf the violinmaker, I would like to ask you about an area that has nothing to do with the subject of this video but I have no other experienced contact. I wish to become a violin maker, but I have always had an aversion to math. I live it as a handicap. I question this dream job because of this. How do you approach mathematics in music, in woodworking? I look forward to receiving an answer from you
Olaf, this has nothing to do with the video, but it would be InTeReStInG if you react to a documental called "Stradivarius Heirs", it would be cool know your professional opinion on that PS: sorry for my lack of english knowledge, i'm from Mexico =p
Has there ever been an instance of a violin have such horrible quality varnish (be it stickiness or bad application or just the type of varnish itself) that required it to be removed? Is that even something that could be done?
It is not an issue since the glue is being warmed indirectly. You can go as hot as you want with the water surround a glass jar. In 10 years I have never had a problem with it. Occasionally you have to add a few drops of water into the glue, but really it's no problem.
Hi Olaf I bought a violin on-line but it has arrived cracked but worst of all it was repaired with superglue just from the top plate...any chance to remove the superglue? Thanks
Superglue is really hard to remove... You literally have to very carefully scrape it off without damaging the varnish. Getting superglue out of cracks is even harder.
@@AskOlaftheViolinmaker Thank you for your answer, it is for my daughter violín, it cost about 300 euros so taking it to a luthier is going to be very expensive, it makes no sense. The big issue about the crack is the superglue inside it. I manage no open the top plate that even that was glued with superglue, a lot of it...I m trying to fix it by my self, I can't afford to pay a professional luthier. Thank you so much for your amazing videos, they are helping me so much.
@@cornelious2 yeah, like you wouldn’t want to introduce moisture (wet rag) or oil to the wood. Would shorten the life or at least damage to look of the instrument. He talked about it in another video about hand patches.
@@cornelious2 I think it's less about damage and more about integrity. If the violin is well made then it will have a protective layer or two of "ground" that is firmly embedded into the spruce and maple, which means you can remove varnish and add it however many times you want. I'm a luthier and I had a client who had a bright red varnished viola - she then wanted a blonde colour so I took off the varnish completely and gave it the blonde look. She didn't like it and requested I changed it back to red, but not *so* red (which was originally opaque), so I used an oil varnish with cochineal and alizarin crimson pigments to achieve a nice glowing varnish. I had to remove the blonde varnish because as we all know: too many layers of varnish will muffle/somewhat mute the sound. So long story short - no damage done when stripping the varnish off! :)
Nice coffee mug! I think he did that one toward the end of his life while a resident at an (insane) asylum. All my research yielded no hidden meaning or allegory or whatever. Just a painting people like to look at. Cheers!
So I know ya r not suppost to remove the varnish and redo it cuz it takes value away, but since this violin is not old and is in really bad shape, why wouldn't it be better to just remove the varnish and redo it completely?
I was wondering that too. Integrity and respect for the maker perhaps? Although it doesn't seem to have been made by a well-known maker. Maybe, just maybe, the client would be most comfortable knowing the original varnish can be saved.
Violins should be finished with lacquer not varnish. If you don't believe me do a test. Paint a violin with varnish: play it, then remove the varnish and lacquer it and play it and compare the sound to when it was varnished.
