The why behind not loading your MP5 with the bolt forward 

A different, but also essential topic for another day. Lots of opportunity to work on that at our MP5 Operator Course.

My duty mp5 has a aimpoint wich blocks the slap 😭

@@Jachammer93 my aimpoint is on a low mount and I have no issue slapping that thing...unless you have a k model?

A fellow sophisticate of taste and manner.

If a 1911 guy can learn the right way there is hope for me. Do I hear a cheap mp5 challenge? Lol

I threw up in my mouth just thinking about it

That would be gun abuse to any other weapon. No tactical advantage to the slap but seems super necessary.

Thanks. The continued positive feedback makes the effort worthwhile.

Adam, I was born in Ontario but moved to the US at a very young age. Come join us here in the states. I spent 64 years of my 68 in California before giving up and moving to the central highlands of Arizona where we still some semblance of freedom left… just sayin’.

come to switzerland, you can buy almost every gun over here :D

i had it as my service gun and i hated it just because of these reload bullshit issues. And safety is increadible hard to pushdown, so sometimes on shooting courses you go from safety to burst or full auto. mp5 goes to trash imo

@@jonnyfontane3607 really?

@@DSM-114 really

Really? That's cool, this video did the OPPOSITE for me. I have been debating whether or not to buy a semi auto MP5 Clone, lately. Bouncing back an forth, making up reasons (excuses). This video helped me want one LESS. Now it just seems like a delicate, complicated (compared to a str8 blowback), and out dated system. Thanks (to the uploader)..... I guess lol

@@Ten_Mil_Will well I can tell you that it is not delicate at all and I can tell you that the roller lock system is perfect and has close to no recoil. The fact that it hasn't changed it's system in so long is because it works and it works well. Hell JP, one of the biggest competition pistol caliber carbine manufacturers just released a rifle with a roller lock system and from what I hear from a close friend who has one is that it's PERFECT. The only drawback I'd say from the MP5 is that it does not have a last round lock back but that hasn't changed my mind about it at all, has even gotten me third place in a shooting match :D hoping for first this weekend haha I can see how it can be a niche but I like different. Bottom line is if you do get one and end up not liking it you can most certainly get your money back.

@@pooptyschmoopty See THAT is what is attracting me - everyone says it is SO soft shooting. Mine will be semi BUT less recoil is always nice and promotes faster follow ups. I'll be honest - Die Hard, Lethal Wrapon, and Sinners & Saints are 3 more factors 😁 Downside - no bolt hold open. "Tap rack bang" in so ingrained in me that I am likely to assume a malfunction under stress. I've also heard of roller locks having head space issues (maybe only the higher cals) and now inserting a full mag on a closed bolt is an issue, causes excess wear? After the first round is chambered the ammo stack to feeder pawl tension can only be ONE round less than it was at 30, right? To have to worry that there isn't enough spring travel left in a full mag just seems "off" for an expensive weapon. I dunno, I probably should just buy one. Hey, good luck on your upcoming match 👍

@@Ten_Mil_Will I guess you have to think about it this way, ar15's have their issues and MP5's has theirs, it's just up to you which issues would you rather deal with haha plus they are different calibers so they both have their seperate roles. I just know that I've had some instances where the last round hold did not hold on my ar15 so is it really that much different than an MP5? I'd say the MP5 is a sure fire way to know that you're going to have a round chambered, granted if you don't have a failure to feed issue, could possibly find someone with one or rent one and see how you feel about it before making up your mind because you had to have known the issues of an AR15 before getting one, you just adapted to it! Lol and much appreciated man

@@pooptyschmoopty Good point, try before ya buy..... especially on something expensive (I consider &1,500 pricey). A friend from my dept has the PTR 9ct with a folding brace and a binary trigger. We both have crazy schedules and haven't managed to link up. I need to totally back burner the whole idea until AFTER I try his out. 👍 Thanks!

Thanks. Some people think the slap is wasted movement and for efficiency, simply moving your thumb up from where it just seated the mag and pressing the charging Ha doe down is advantageous.

The MP5 magazine has three witness holes in the rear that you can use for inspection. The practice from ARs of doing a “press check” is a no go though, as the roller delayed bolt system requires the full force of the recoil rod expanding to properly put the weapon in battery. Slowly pulling the bolt back to check and see if you have a round in the chamber will not allow the bolt to go back in battery after (no forward assist). If that is your goal, instead, do this. When you load the magazine with 30 rounds, the top round in the magazine will always be on the left side. When you load the magazine into the weapon, with the bolt back, then slap the charging handle, stripping the top round off the mag and chambering, then you can remove the magazine and check (either visual during day or tactile at night) and if it chambered a round properly, the top round will now be on the right side.

@@teufelshundtactical But then you have a situation where you've successfully chambered a round and have an almost-full mag you need to reseat. Just pound that thing in there?

@@Skylyned The theory is that for a proactive reload, you are “giving up the probability that there is still one round in the chamber for the certainty that you’re going to put thirty in”. If this seems odd, give it a try. That’s the way it has been run since way back in the SAS, GSG9, SEALS, Marines, etc.

That certainly is one technique. Another is to always load with the bolt back first. That way, regardless of whether you have 28 or 30 rounds in a mag now or in the future, it will always work.

Sure. Lots of ways to accomplish a task. But you’re going against the way the weapon was designed to be loaded, purposely losing two rounds out of a magazine designed to hold 30 and now commuting to always downloading your mags in order to get them to seat the first time every time with the bolt forward. For me, I’d rather not have to worry about counting and downloading and just pull the bolt back like I’m supposed to. But again, your gun, run it however you want.

I teach two primary techniques in my courses. The first is “Off, Back, On, Forward” and the second is “Back, Off, On, Forward”. The first is best for certainty and the second is best for speed.

Better if you didn't, but not a major concern.

Either work. What is important is that you use full force.

It’s a Scalarworks on a B&T base. Several different options for height on both. You just have to determine what works best for you.

@@teufelshundtactical I am thinking about passive aiming with NV so maybe I’ll go with a higher mount. Just tough to tell how high is too high 😂 can’t be looking goofy and have a huge height over bore issue. I’m getting the same b&t mount and that’s why I was curious. Thanks again!

The bolt does not rotate and does not have any problem moving back. It comes to rest above the magazine, where it is sitting directly above it. Moving back for extraction and ejection then allows the next bullet to be presented at the top of the magazine for the feed pawl to intercept it again during its movement back forward again.

Glad you are enjoying them. A side folding stock will most likely be more stable and provide a better cheek weld. Sliders make the overall size more compact when collapsed.

@teufelshundtactical7125 Yeah, i definitely need to figure out which one I want. I like both options. And I've kinda been leaning more towards the slider, Because I like that compact package. But I can see where the folding stock would offer better support.

Yes. The thought process is "certainty over probability". I'm giving up the probability that there is still a round in the chamber for the certainty of 30 by pulling the charging handle back every time I load.

There is more than one way to do any task, and I teach many at my courses. But bolt back before loading is important. I have never seen any wear on the magazines by doing this with a mag inserted.

Awesome! Thank you for the reply! I shall continue to lock then strip as its proven to be more efficient for my clumsy hands. Again awesome content and thorough explanations.

In that way, the magazine will seat, but if you slam the mag in, the feed lips can make contact with the bolt. Done repeatedly, with force, can damage the feed lips (probably more than damage the bolt).

​@@teufelshundtactical Thanks for the reply. I tried it a few times after posting, and I think I can feel that it's not good. At least I suppose there are worse things than damaging a magazine. What do you recommend for someone in my situation; who wants it ready, but not dangerously so. One in the chamber and use the safety? Bolt back, magazine in awaiting a slap into action if necessary? It seems any of these methods will be causing wear on something. I've watched several of your videos and taken several tidbits of your information and worked it into my own defense strategy. You have some of, if not the most thorough and accurate videos regarding the MP5/clones and series out there, so it is very much appreciated. I think my needs are different from what you typically instruct for since I am wanting to be ready for bad guys coming in rather than preparing to go in after bad guys.

@@vyoufinder Either keep it loaded (round in chamber) or unloaded with mag out but with the gun.

@@teufelshundtactical Roger Dodger. Thanks. Now I can get on with more practicing and less researching.

To be clear, you can load 28 or 29 and put it in the gun without any problem. Just don't beat it to get it to lock in. There's no difference in you manually loading round 29 from the mag or the action doing the work during the cycle of operations while shooting it. The crunchiness is normal on all removable mag fed firearms. It's just more noticable with double stack double feed mags and most 9mm due to the shape of the bullet and how high the lips have to be to hold tension on the cartridge until the bolt is traveling back to the front. With Glock this isn't as noticable because of the angle the mag is holding the top round at. It allows for a lot more clearance so there's very little that rubs the slide. Now on an ar or a freshly built ak you will feel it much more because of the clearances at the top of the feed lips in relation to the bolt/bcg base. Don't worry about wearing out springs with loaded mags that sit either or the mag release spring. Springs with 0 tension are more likely to develop issues over time than one kept under tension, which is the natural rest state for a compression spring.

It does not apply to the newer models.

#4

@@teufelshundtactical thank you, not necessarily the answer I would have expected

The AK reload requires you to download your mags in order to have it reliably seat the first one every time. That means you have to remember to always download your mags and in doing so, you have less ammo. If I’m going to adopt a technique, bolt back reload vs AK reload, I choose the one that gives me more ammo and doesn’t always have to make me count when loading all my mags or remember to remove a couple. But it’s your gun, your technique choice.

@@teufelshundtactical Hi Sir, thank you very much for the reply. I got ya - a most thorough explanation and a solid argument! I love the channel.

It’s about certainty over probability. With variations on mags and conditions of mag springs, whether or not you loaded 30 or weren’t paying attention and actually jammed a 31st round in, the only way to be certain that the mag will lock in the first time, every time is to lock the bolt back first. If you don’t mind having to make multiple attempts during a reload, then by all means, adopt a bolt forward reload.

@@teufelshundtactical Mostly just curious how a tactical reload goes down. I was guessing that you would lock the bolt back and sacrifice the chambered round but wasn't totally sure. I don't have any experience on the platform. Thanks for taking the time to answer.

@@noquartergiven7789 I would highly recommend you come to one of our Operator Courses, as you’ll be running the weapons incredibly proficiently in no time. But to answer your question, I teach several different techniques and explain the advantages and disadvantages of each and then let the students decide which one they favor the most. For beginners, I recommend “Off, Back, On, Forward” for both proactive and reactive reloads. The first step being to remove the magazine (Off), then pulling back and locking e charging handle in the up position (Back), then inserting the new magazine (On), and finally releasing the charging handle forward (Forward).

All Roller Delayed H&Ks.

I often see challenges with people getting a fully loaded mag to seat with the slide forward. Requires more force or takes a second attempt.

@@teufelshundtactical Sad, you will find me childish but I thought pistol tactical reloads were as smouth as they are in Call of Duty. Thank you for the videos it's very interesting.

As explained in the video, the design is for bolt to be open during reloads. It’s the only way to be certain that the mag will seat and that there will be a round in the chamber. But yes, if you want to, you can reload with the bolt closed.

@Teufelshund Tactical Thank you for explaining again. My friend was convinced that it would be faster/easier to reload with the bolt closed.

@@qpOffBeatPanda999 Faster, yes. More reliable, no.

Bolt needs to be back when doing an admin reload, proactive reload or reactive (immediate) reload. The two techniques of choice are “back, off, on, forward” and “off, back, on, forward”. There are reasons behind each.

Thank you for your reply. Follow up question: at what point, round count, would you expect to start seeing the sort of malfunctions/damage you talked about in the video?

@@archangel3285 If you are referring to a cracked bolt, that is an extremely rare issue. Shoot and enjoy.

@@teufelshundtactical and the mag issues you were talking about?

@@archangel3285 It’s not about time with the mags, but use and that is different for different people. My recommendation on mags is first, to have separate mags for training and separate mags for “carry”. If your training mags get wear, no problem. Any issues you face just allow you to get “reps” in on clearing malfunctions. Don’t want to deal with that in a real situation. Second, buy spare magazine springs and keep them in a drawer. When you do your annual maintenance and clean your mags, check the length of the old springs agains the new one and if you see a significant difference in length, throw out the old springs and install the new ones.

Courses are listed on the training page of the website, teufelshundtactical.com

@@teufelshundtactical thanks James. Is the bolt gap the same on a zenith as a hk? 0.18 I think. Noticed un even burns on the left side of my bolt. Is that normal.

@@teufelshundtactical link seems to be a dead end. Could not get anything to come up but home page. Sorry I figured it out. I’m 64. Not that great with computers. Guess it’s sold out

@@JoeyFranko The spec range is the same for all roller delayed weapons based on the H&K design.

@@JoeyFranko The website works just fine.

Slap away! Your H&K can take it.

I explain in the video why you don’t reload with the bolt forward. And yes, transitioning is always faster than reloading and is the recommendation regardless of the weapon in a CQB environment, which is where the MP5 is intended to be used.

Mag springs cost me $10.

All the roller delayed rifles are modular by nature. The lack of a bolt hold open device is really the only detractor for most as for modernization.

Thank you for the immediate response. If you don't mind my asking, the Portuguese, the Swedes, and the Norwegians have made attempts to put optics and lasers on their G3s. How can anyone deal with the ergonomic problems?

@@lambrosstamos4494 There are lots of different mounting options for optics on the roller delayed rifles. Nothing about those compromises ergonomics. Lots of stock options too if you want a better cheek weld. Again, the main complaint I get from newer shooters, who have grown accustom to a bolt hold open device, is the requirement to manually cycle the bolt during reloads. On the longer weapons, requiring more reach, that can take more effort. I have not seen a solution to that. It's just part of running the guns and with training, as always, you can get very proficient with it.

@@teufelshundtactical didn't some of the later MP5 models have a bolt hold open? No idea if they were any good, but I could swear I read the 10mm and/or .40 versions (or some subset thereof) had bolt hold opens added.

@@sultanofsick For the FBI contract, the MP5/10 and MP5/40 were updated to incorporate a bolt hold open device that works in concert with their redesigned magazines. They make running the weapons like a G36 or HK416.

Yep. Never a shortage of “haters”, but what I have found through years of doing this (and life in general) is that we, as humans, inherently dislike what we fail to truly understand. A couple of hours behind a MP5 in one of my training courses, or taking the time to watch one of my video reviews on another H&K weapon they had only previously seen in a glass case at a gun shop, and now they appreciate it for what it is, because they have committed to actually opening their mind and learning. We need more willingness to listen and try new (or in the case of the MP5, old) things in our lives.

You’re obviously welcome to the opinion and welcome to run your gun any away you want. But by downloading your mags, you are committing to a conscious decision tho save a quarter to half a second that you must now do every single time that you run the gun if you want certainty. The way I described is the way the weapon was designed to run and how those top their operators from the SAS, GSG9, SEALS, Marine Force Recon and so on ran their guns, but again, totally your choice.

I appreciate that. But there are plenty of TTPs and SOPs previously used by elite units over the 20th and 21st centuries that are no longer done. The only thing absolute about TTPs in effective units is that no TTP is sacrosanct. No TTP is immune from scrapping or evolution. It does in fact save time in an emergency reload, and I’m not quite as worried about time in tactical reload. But, it’s personal preference and I’m not trying to convince you to change either. Just discussing reasons/pros/cons. Have a good one.

I teach both “Off, Back, On, Forward” and “Back, Off, On, Forward”. The first is best for certainty, the second is best for speed.

Covered in the video

If your whole unit does that, fine. If it's just you, it's a problem when you need to use someone else's mags.

At no point did I recommend keeping the bolt open for anything other than reloading.

I have a “fan” that follows me just to dislike ever I post. He’s nothing if he’s not reliable.

@@teufelshundtactical wow!

Possible, but not recommended. It’s challenging to prevent a double feed or the bolt from going fully into battery.

@@teufelshundtactical I'm no expert but that last part sounds like it could lead to scary kaboom consequences. I'll stick to mag fed.

Haha. I was on my way out the door for PT. Saving that classy shirt for later :)

I can't find this shirt online, so I'm guessing it's a one-off for James only. ;-)

@@ORLY21 It’s available online.

"Die Hard style"? Do you realize the slap is in the manual?