As Seraphim Hamilton’s mom, thank you both for an excellent discussion! My own faith (even though I’m still an evangelical Protestant) has been incalculably enriched by my son’s understanding. I actually have another son who is just as Orthodox and just as brilliant. Not sure where either of them came from, but grateful to the Lord for both of them
Mrs. Hamilton, I feel I need to let you know that your son’s public work and personal intervention in a matter that I brought to him changed not only my own life, but the lives of my entire family. You’ve raised brilliant and Godly sons and I want you to know that your holy work as a mother has had a ripple effect throughout the world. God bless and keep both you and your family.
@@ngmi5574 wow! Thank you. And praise God for His faithful work in your life and in your family’s life. I’m honored and grateful to know that He used my son so powerfully. Many blessings to you
So if i'm understanding the Communion of Saints portion, are you saying: Christ is the one who intercedes for our Salvation, but that Christ and the Church are one. Christ’s power is in the Church and the Church is the intercessor for the world itself. So basically, the saints that have died are in Christ and are priests/kings in heaven, alongside Christ, so they have the power to intercede on our behalf THROUGH the power of Christ, not their power alone. This is kind of a brain blast for me and grants immense power to the idea of "praying to" Saints and the Theotokos. Hopefully you see this and correct me if i'm understand incorrectly.
@GospelSimplicity @Austin can you please have @Suan Sonna, @Kabane and @Erick Ybarra on discussing a specific topi together, would be like having Christian Avengers together.
Seraphim, I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Have you explored God's relationship to the Eternal Law? You make it seem as God has no choice but to be God, is that correct?
I can't remember the last time someone argued the LDS position on Theosis so well.while claiming to disagree with it. Does the Orthodox position articulate where the cap is on this process of progress to deification? Where is the line drawn? @@jacobsamuelson3181
Excellent guest. He definetly needs to write a book or two (I'd bet at least one or two is in the works). He speaks in such an eloquent, flourishing manner - his writing would likely reflect the same. While the guest was definetly impressive, what also struck my wife and I when we were watching was how excellent your interview skills have become. Professional, congenial, knowledgeable and accessible were the words we used to describe you. Keep up the good work!
I concur on the book writing. That was my thought exactly when watching, that Seraphim could reach an even wider audience by putting these thoughts to paper. Super interesting, and essential, topic!
Seraphim is the best. I love that he makes videos on mormonism because I grew up Mormon and his content contributed to recent conversion to Orthodoxy with my wife and our 3 children. Highly recommend his discussions with Jay Dyer on biblical typology.
@@ACReji I am not sure I completely understand what you are saying, but as a former Mormon who is now an Orthodox Christian, just skip the Mormonism and come and see a Divine Liturgy at your local Orthodox Church.
@Ashwin Cherish Reji Mormonism is much further from the truth than Protestantism. They have the wrong starting point theologically as explained by Seraphim in the video whereas most Protestants at least believe in the Triune God.
@ACReji As a current member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints. You can learn so much more about Christianity itself by looking into the religion. We share many similarities, but believe Christ's Church was lost over apostasy and the message became split and divided in assumption rather than revelation, in a very similar fashion between the transition of the Jewish religion to Christ's religion. I am grateful to be a member, because like the Saints of old instructed by Paul or Peter, we are able to see things from a higher law and can better recognize the errors in our past beliefs or traditions. While there are people who would keep you from learning that higher law by denouncing it as heresy, we should always remember that Christ taught with love to others and respect to others beliefs by at least learning what they are as Paul and Peter did to reach according to their knowledge. The Pharisees tried to get people to not listen to Jesus over the same fear tactic of heresy and an association of heresy. We must be higher than those accusations.
@jacobsamuelson3181 It’s rich hearing you as a Mormon accuse Christians of being like the Pharisees because we call out false teachings that have no basis in scripture or sacred tradition. So now Jesus and the apostles would be like the Pharisees according to your silly critique. The irony here is that the Book of Mormon teaches that Christians are part of the church of the devil, Joseph smith called Christian creeds abominations and all Christians corrupt, and the LDS temple video featured a Christian minister who was a hireling of Satan to deceive the children of Adam. Mormons are not allowed into the Mormon temples if they drink coffee, non mormons are never allowed in temples even if their son or daughter is getting married in there. Mormonism is the most pharisaical if we want to draw parallels. And your “higher law” identifies taking teen brides and concubines as the highest sacred ordinance so hard pass.
Seraphim is in my opinion the best online content creator from the Orthodox laity. He has a strong Biblical focus that is sometimes not emphasised as much in other places, which I think makes him a great point of contact for Protestants who are interested in Orthodoxy. He also does a wonderful job of avoiding political controversies and focusing on theology, something else that is rather a novelty in online Orthodox circles.
So the idea is that God is both essence and energy but we will never have the essence of God but we participate in and interact with and join His energies.
St Maximus says there are three different ways to be in union with God: 1) substantial union, which would make us part of the Trinity which isn't true. 2) hypostatic union which would make us another incarnation which isn't true. 3) energetic union which is our way.
As a Latter-day Saint I truly appreciated the very matter of fact(and accurate) compare and contrast between LDS theology and Orthodox with out any unnecessary digs at Latter-day Saints. It helped me understand a bit of the theological differences as sometimes our doctrine of Exaltation does sound similar to the doctrine of Theosis. Really enjoyed the podcast, very well put and thorough explanations!
What an amazing interview!! I too grew up a devout Protestant fundamentalist anchored in justification, with a sprinkling of sanctification. But what really launched my awareness of glorification (theosis) was a transfiguration of the Word via a new covenant of the Spirit, not the letter (2 Cor 3:6). The Spirit of God began to illuminate a new way of partaking of Scripture, more as symbol and less as mere surface level fact. For instance, I watched the threat of a merciless Lake of Fire stoked for unrepentant sinners transfigured into a glorious Baptism of Fire promising to refine my heart like gold that I might become a true partaker of the Divine Nature (Mal 3:2-3, Dan 3:25)! The Dwelling Place of God in the Spirit (Rev 21:2, Eph 2:22) Later I discovered in his Commentary on Matthew, Origen of Alexandria’s teaching on the Mount of Transfiguration. Here, he suggested how those ascending the mountain of maturity and intimacy with Christ would experience a Transfiguration of the Word from letter to Spirit and thus behold its true glory. Here, one discovers the “hidden wisdom” reserved for the mature (1 Cor 2:6-7).For me, this new way of understanding transformed a God of wrath and condemnation into one of Love and Compassion as that veil of biblical literalism was lifted! (2 Cor 3:14) Meanwhile, as the old self was being stripped, winnowed, and smelted away, I too was being encouraged to be clothed in Christ, the Divine Nature of humility, kindness, gentleness, compassion, and love (Col 3:9-15, Matt 3:11-12). Suddenly I realized how the true revelation of Christ is from within (2 Cor 13:5, Col 1:27). First Christ is revealed to us, so He might then be revealed through us, as the Glory of the Lord fills the Temple that we are. Just like Solomon’s Temple at its dedication at the Feast of Tabernacles. Thus what we had been given in a First Fruits measure at Pentecost, we are later given in fullness at that next Great Feast! (Eph 1:14) As we are truly conformed to the image of His Son! (Rom 8:29) My vision of Christianity was thus radically transformed by this Orthodox concept of theosis! My hope was no longer anchored in "going to" heaven and thus avoiding that Lake of Fire. But rather, now my hope was in being transformed by that Baptism of Fire in order to become the Dwelling Place of God on earth (Mal 3:2-3, Eph 2:22)! Becoming the True Temple of many Living Stones by becoming a true partaker of His Glorious Nature! As the Kingdom of Heaven is gloriously revealed within! And thus my focus shifted from my legal right standing with God (justification) to my true transformation by the very Nature of God...glorification / theosis!! For our God is a Consuming Fire!! And this is our promise of being transformed! And thus we get to rip up those old Fire insurance policies and learn to dance in the Flames. For His ministers are Flames of Fire! For we are that Burning Bush aflame with the Presence of God!
Please don’t underestimate his point about justification happening within the Temple, that trounces so many wrong ideas and misapplication of the legal language. That was a true nugget of gold!
Another interesting connection I made while listening to that was that the veil was torn in two from top to bottom when Christ died, and that the temple was destroyed not long after, but that Christ said "I will destroy this temple made by hands, and within three days I will build another temple not made by hands." Seraphim did a really good job of tying that together for me.
Seraphim is amazing for his age! He will only get better. Just some clarifications from an Orthodox Priest: 1. I think the best image for Theosis is what that the Holy Fathers use: Place iron in fire and the iron takes on the properties of fire but without becoming fire itself. Iron is humanity, Fire divinity.. 2. While Theosis is part of the reality of an Orthodox Christian from the beginning, it is by no means an enduring or all-encompassing reality unless we are first purified of the sinful passions (purification of the heart) so that we can be fully illumined by God's uncreated grace. This is why the Saints do indeed manifest the fruits of Theosis more fully and clearly. This is why Orthodoxy emphasizes repentance. There is no Theosis without deep and continuous repentance! We have a tendency to be too egalitarian in our thinking, as good Americans :) 3. We need to also acknowledge the essential ecclesial aspect of Theosis, i.e. sharing in the uncreated grace of God comes through the Church's ascetic and sacramental life. In general, we Orthodox understand that the uncreated grace of God flows from the Body of Christ, the Church, and especially, of course, in the Holy Eucharist. Forgive me. This is me: store.ancientfaith.com/know-the-faith/
Bravo on getting Mr. Seraphim Hamilton to join you. Look forward to watching this. Theosis: A most appropriate topic as those of who are Eastern Orthodox are in Great Lent.
Orthodoxy attracts sound and robust men...as the churches are filled with images of Saints, the apolistic works from the divine sphere never stops.. kudos! We need more of that...
Interestingly, I happen to be watching this on St. Gregory Palamas' Feast day. We sang his Apolytikion and Kontakion at Church this morning and I chanted the Akathist to him when I got home. A very important, highly respected, and much-loved and venerated figure in the Church. Thank you for this video, it is the perfect way to finish the day!
Definitely second the Through New Eyes book. James Jordan was my Sunday School teacher!- definitely one of the slow burn influences that brought me and my family to now be catechumens in the Orthodox Church.
This broadcast was an exceptional conversation. Thank you for hosting this! As far as I can tell, Seraphim speaks from a place of 'authority' insofar as he is well read and educated in this area of discourse. His credentials certainly speak for themselves. So I appreciate his humility the few times in the conversation where he conceded that he is not as well read in such and such area. This is the mark of a true gentleman, firstly, but can even be the mark of a true theologian. Judging by the character of Seraphim (as a sort of first impression of him), I think he would likely feel uncomfortable with the title of 'theologian' because of the heavy weight it carries. Nevertheless, he strikes me as (at least) being on the trajectory of being a legitimate theologian (if not to be counted now as one), by God's Grace. This conversation is a solid change of pace from the horror of RU-vid 'armchair theology' that seems to be dominating these types of channels.
I see what you meant about trying to keep up with him intellectually. Super sharp. He really has me thinking and I am compelled to read my Orthodox study bible especially the book of John. I really like the idea of growing and essentially merging with God by grace but still maintaining the creature-creator distinction. The idea of Theosis is really beautiful to think that God loves us so much he wants to commune with His creation so intimately!
What a delightful surprise to hear two Christians -- one Protestant and one Orthodox -- articulating so eloquently the scriptural subject of theosis (deification or divinization). As a Catholic biblical theologian and Matthean exegete, I have focused much attention on Jesus as Emmanuel, which means God with us. The theme of divine 'with-ness' (Matthew 1:23; 18:20; 28:20) is not only crucial for understanding Christ the King, but also for understanding his kingdom people. Risen from the dead and enthroned in glory, Emmanuel is the royal king of Israel. Baptized in God's triune name, we are the kingdom people who shares in his divine fullness. In my doctoral dissertation, Fulfilled Israel, I argue that the central theme of the Gospel of Matthew can be formulated as follows: in and through the Messiah of Israel, the God of Israel has filled inaugurally, is filling presently, and will fill consummately his kingdom with the fullness of God. I'm so pleased to see Christians outside my tradition studying the Bible and coming to such similar conclusions.
All Seraphim is doing here is recounting theology that was on the books exhaustively in the 8th c. Also, there is no similar conclusion here, as Romanist dogma precludes the possibility of theosis by denying potentia and mandating "created grace." Orthodoxy, which is the only Christianity, affirms the uncreated grace we receive as a gift from the Lord.
Seraphim rightly recognizes that theosis (deification, divinization) is given explicit mention in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (cf. 21:09; CCC 460, 1265, 1988). He alludes also to Thomas Aquinas, the medieval Catholic theologian who describes how man is capax Dei. That is, man has a natural potentiality for God but requires God’s agency to actualize this potentiality. I rejoice that both Catholic and Orthodox Christians have so much in common here.
So good. So many gems. So eloquently said. His thoughts about coming to the realization that we can't do it and resting in God, and then connecting that with theosis as the "basis for a robust and rich and genuinely peace-giving doctrine of assurance" ...beautiful.
I really enjoyed this as a recent convert to Orthodoxy, and purchased the book recommended by Seraphim. I too had the experience of always doubting when I was Evangelical Protestant (the story seemed to be mashed up and forced), but Orthodoxy aligned it and it all made sense.
I feel like I just experienced Theosis! Holy cow! Wonderful interview. Thank you for all you do. These interviews help build my faith more than you know. To God be the glory ❤️🙏
This was both a challenging and heartwarming interview!I can’t thank you enough for having Seraphim. He weds both the depths and the heart of true religion.
Finally watched this one a year later and it is one of the best you have done. Seraphim should write a book as many have said! Very uplifting without relying on pure emotionalism .
Thank you for this excellent conversation! I hadn't seen or heard Seraphim Hamilton before this, so it was a pleasant encounter and I'm eager to look him up on RU-vid. Thank you for all your work. God bless you and protect you.
Originally, years ago, I thought it sounded Pagan. RCC never uses deification as a term that man can become. But then you just quoted the ancient saint who is honored by Orthodox and RCC. I do understand the meaning now. Great video btw
I am only seeing this 7 months down the road. As a person who is several decades older than the two of you, and who has thought seriously about my faith for nearly as long, I am humbled by your intellectual prowess. Even more astounding, and beautiful, is your genuine humility. If only more of us, especially those on RU-vid, would reflect your spirit. Thank you for this inspiring conversation. Blessings.
Seems to be a common happening right now. As if God we’re lifting a veil. I can’t get enough orthodoxy. And I can’t digest the ambiguity of everything else anymore. Never even knew orthodoxy existed😂
@@malachipratton5145 This is how I was a few years ago - and now I'm Orthodox 🙂best decision I have ever made. I still yearn for God and am amazed at how loving and good God is
Gracious! I'll be digesting this hour for a very long time. Thank you Mr Hamilton for your insights and thank you Austin for both hosting this guest and being such an excellent interlocutor on our behalf.
Id like to see sephraim and Dr Ortlund have a dialogue/debate. Especially on the icon. Sephraim touched on it but i could tell he could go on and on just on that point. Given a timely rebuttal in a dialogue with Ortlund i think is the answer
Because he has mostly been known just in Orthodox circles for many years and is only recently being made more known. I’ve been listening to him for atleast 5 years
A great conversation! Seraphim is definitely operating at an intellectual level several degrees above me. I have to slow it down to about 0.8x speed for my brain to keep up. But there was a lot of good stuff here!
I really love this because recently ive just been sitting under the teaching from Damon Thompson Ministries. Hes been going deep into alot of teachings about theosis
why sad? In Christ, we are in the transcendent space. He isn't dead, he has simply laid the body down. Right now, he is in the midst of the divine council. "Ask and it will be given to you"
I am an Episcopalian who loves to study apocrypha and pseudapigrapha along with Scripture. The epistle to Diognetus implies that Christian theosis can be found in Torah's "great" commandments, when loving God by loving neighbor as ourselves: "It is the one who takes what he has received from God, distributes it to the needy, and thus becomes a god to those who receive from him." This echoes Jesus in his sermon on the mount, and the book of Tobit which emphasizes spirituality-by-charity. This is so well pictured in the Good Samaritan and the life of Christ.
We are also the robbed man. who was the one robbed and left for dead? Adam. but the Christ binds the wounds, pays the price, takes him from the Broadway that leads to destruction. gives the "wine-blood" "Chrism-oil" medicine to heal lost health and takes him to a safe place to heal, and put's His name/credit on the line for any other needs. "As you have freely received, Give"
Lol I thought the thumbnail was a before and after picture. Like before theosis after theosis, not to imply that one was better than the other AT ALL. I was just curious thinking wow that's a big change. He looks like a whole new person!? 😂 I literally thought, " huh, I wonder how he got blue eyes..."
This made for a very interesting conversation. Thank you for sharing it with us. The demeanor of you both made it that much more appealing to listen in. Though I don't subscribe to Orthodox proper, there is much here re 'theosis' that resonates with my current sense that Christ Jesus a) IS the Christian life in the Christian and b) DOES the Christian life within/thru the Christian. Highlights for me: -- Crucial distinction between divine ESSENCE (being) and divine ENGERGIES (doing). -- Who God is, only God is. -- What God does, only God does. -- Triune Godhead is an essential and dynamic spiritual-relational reality that is the hope of all other relationships, between God and man, and between man and man. -- Legal aspects (i.e. biblical law, etc) are always subordinate to and depictions of the spiritual/ontological realities. -- Jesus alone is the Christian's justification (being righteous for/in us) and sanctification (being holiness for/in/thru us). -- Phil.2:7... Jesus, as God-man, set aside not divine being, but divine function, and functioned as man dependent upon (faith-receptive to) God (the Father), by the Spirit. -- God is the essence and function of all godliness. -- Christ is the essence and function of all things Christian. -- Spirit is the essence and function of all things spiritual. -- Jesus, is the Icon of God, the express/exact Image of God. Jesus redeems, restores, and replicates this divine image of glory-presence within each human that is faith-receptive to His doing so. The image of Christ is most clearly seen to the world around us by His manifesting His love in/thru us toward one another, even toward our enemies. -- Spiritual life: The Spirit alone is Life. The spiritual life (existence/expression) within/thru the Christian is the Spirit alone present and powerful. Mere imitation of this Life that Jesus alone is, is a false image/expression, unless Jesus is the sole source/expression. -- Grace: Divine-action received by faith-reception of Divine-presence that abides within receptive ones, Christ-ones. -- Rest: We really can/should rest in God’s work. We enter the rest of God so that the work of God might continue for the sake of others and God’s glory (self-expression).
@Gospelsimplicity Have you read the mystical theology of the eastern church by Vladimir Lossky? Also another great resource on Theosis Podcast or RU-vid Channel: Orthodox Wisdom Episode theosis: the true purpose to human life part 1 and 2.
This is an excellent discussion and S. Hamilton has done masterful work at explaining it and relating it to our existing Catholic / Protestant framework. Christianity, I think, suffers from too much wilderness and not enough path. In other words, we've lost sight of the point of our existence in God for all of the discussion of doctrine and liturgy and social justice. Theosis is the point of it and when we adopt that framework we see it clearly in scripture from Genesis to Revelation. Focus on it, on the Father's love for us, and that the point of our being is eternal union with the Holy Trinity. I admire S. Hamilton for his courage and clarity.
i just watched your new video are you more orthodox or catholic and i just feel that your response to him describing Theosis was to naturally bring up the essence energy distinction. I kind of chuckled and thought “it doesn’t get more orthodox of that” 😂😂 excellent content as always tho homie
Agree with Austin's statement made around 6:30 that Seraphim's description of Theosis was the most eloquent he had ever heard. The Orthodox concept of Theosis is not foreign to evangelical like myself although we might describe it in different terms. Scripture contains several passages that sound a lot like Theosis. For example, Romans 8:29 describes how believers are "...predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son," and 1 John 3:2 states that when Jesus returns "...we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is." There are several others that describe the same concept.
