They are pretty adorable in this video I do agree, but Bethany’s kind words are completely devalued when she also described Paul and Morgan as having “integrity” 😂😂
I feel kinda bad for the way I judged them and their marriage in the past. Despite their problematic Christian beliefs then, it seems they really do love each other.
A year ago I was hoping they would divorce so Dav could deconstruct and heal. Now I'm rooting for them. They have such a sweet dynamic now and it's clear that they love each other and want the best for each other
See Bethany act so mature is genuinely heartwarming. The fact that she is so accepting of Dav shows her willingness to change. The fact that Dav has come out as an atheist but hasn’t changed into a devil with horns and lost his moral compass is showing Bethany that you don’t need Christ and the belief in the Bible to be a good person. She was raised in a bubble of fear that stipulated that she stay away from “heathens” for fear of corruption. I’m glad to see her personal growth. And Dav is awesome!
I cannot tell you how many religious people have been shocked that I am both an atheist AND a good person. I truly believe I opened their eyes a bit though.
@@sarahj6995 I was raised Christian. I’m a very empathetic and caring person. I’m now an atheist. People are shocked that I’m still an empathic, caring person. Nothing about my personality has changed. I’m hoping that it makes people around me realize that atheism doesn’t equal evil.
I'm Christian and the five best and most Christ-like people I know are Atheist or agnostic, with the exception of my Catholic mother. That being said, it always breaks my heart when people become Atheist because of the evils of the church. All you need in order to be Christian is God and a soul. No intermediary is necessary.
I have seen conditional empathy from conservative Christians about queer people, where they are against LGBTQ+ folks, until a family member comes out. And it's good they change, but also.....other humans count, too.
Only caring about your ingroup and seeing everybody else as less than human is the origin of conservative religion. That attitude is the reason why people who were not born into it convert to that stuff. They are searching for a way to belong to a tightnit group that tells them they are superior to others, offer a simple view of the world and keep "the human vermin" out of their environment. Only having empathy for the people in your ingroup is kind of the whole point of these groups. Often the legalistic structure and their place in the group is even more important to them than the people in their ingroup and they will disown their kids who don`t fit the mold.
Yes. It shouldn't have to personally affect you for you to care. I guess I'll take kindness where I can but the difference between a good person and a "nice" one is just that.
@@jsevestjanova but that is human nature. You don’t know what you don’t know. Plenty of us are that way towards others. How many of us are hostile to someone conservative just based on the knowledge they are? What do you imagine when someone says they are “religious”? Is it possible we also associate a lot of negative stereotypes to these people? How about the way most people think about addiction? We are all products of our conditioning and every single one of us has experienced a change of opinion only once they were personally affected.
i think deconversion happens once you get tired of th e"mental gymastics" ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-BqcDXIx6CA8.html like the gymastics have to do just to say "God is love" like this 5 minute video i jsut linked says!
The entire ex-fundamentalist community on RU-vid has been calling it for months too. When he said he’d seen some of the comments and videos I just wondered how weird it must have been for him to see how noticeable it was. Usually when you’re trying to pretend you’re fine you don’t get an entire internet of feedback telling you that you’re not pulling it off at all.
@@spacecat7864I know, part of me feels really bad for him, deconstructing in "public", like I can't imagine. It was already such a scary thing for me.
@@ConstantiaVertedI don’t think we should be speculating about his, or any other person’s sexuality whatsoever. Doing so is anything but healthy and just not helpful for anyone.
Thanks now I have that song stuck in my head. Also as someone who was reading about the Biblical Paul’s life earlier this comment tracks to that surprisingly well… just not exactly for the same reasons. If you are curious look up Paul’s argument with Peter it was VERY public - and the story itself is extremely wild but there’s too many words in it that RU-vid would not like me to say 😂
This is so true. I honestly had thought their marriage would not survive Dav's deconstruction because Bethany seemed so rigid in her beliefs. Lovely to see.
25:15 THIS is why I’ve always struggled with Christianity; my family is Catholic and I could never wrap my mind around original sin. As a kid I asked “what does that have to do with me? I don’t even know her” 😂
@@sarahnelson8836 I want to start by saying I'm NOT religious at all, I'm a hardcore atheist dealing with religious trauma but I'm also the daughter of a pastor so I used to study the bible a lot lol I just thought I could shine some light to what you said. Christians base their idea of the original sin on the event in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3), where Adam and Eve's disobedience introduced sin and death into the world. Then Romans 5:12-21 describes how sin and death entered the world through Adam's disobedience, and how this affected all of humanity. Specifically, it says that "sin entered the world through one man" and that "death came to all people because all sinned" (Romans 5:12) so the theological interpretation is that sin entered all humanity in the Garden and therefore humanity as a whole became corruptted. Hence the idea that human nature is inherently evil since we all "carry sin within us", and that's why if we are born "broken" the idea that the only restoration is in christ is so attractive to christians. It's fucked up I know, but well that passage is foundational to their belief that all humans are born with a tendency to sin and do wrong.
Your comments at around 9:00 hit me because I am currently in the middle of divorcing my husband of almost 22 years because we simply can't agree to disagree. Our oldest child is trans and he will not accept it. To me, that's something that can't be compromised. We spent the first 20 years agreeing to disagree on religion, politics, and dozens of other things. But my limit was hit and I'm more concerned about supporting my (adult) child than my childish husband. I hope these two can make it through because this video is the most kind and supportive I've ever seen from them.
I whole heartedly support you and agree with your decision. You're child NEEDS you no matter how old they are...your husband is the one making the CHOICE to put up a wall. You are doing the right thing...just in case you needed to hear it. I would choose my child first over anyone else and I think as a parent (in at least most cases) that is the way it should be. It's our one job, to support them. Sorry your husband can't see this.
I have to say, as a trans person in my 20's your comment made me tear up, I appreciate you so much. From the moment I realized I was trans in 8th grade I've planned my life around my parents finding out and kicking me to the curb. I've very gently come out to my mother about my sexuality and I know that has been a journey for her, but I am still unwilling to make that final leap, not until I have an income and some money saved for the worst outcome. So just hearing about a parent standing by their child enough to divorce their partner makes me very emotional. I know in that situation I would feel very guilty about placing a rift in the family however, especially since I have younger siblings and it seems like your child does as well, so I really hope you're making sure that their mental health isn't taking a dive due to how the situation unfolded. It's no one's fault, but it's still scary, so I hope you're both treating each other gracefully. And I hope you're having a wonderful day.
I think Bethany and Dav would have a lot more viewers if they kept having these candid, loving, conversations about deconstructing in full or in part from their religion. It's actually pretty beautiful that their marriage is still strong even though the whole basis of their culture is based on religion and one is in and one is out. That Bethany isn't taking a stand and "choosing religion over her husband" is really great!
As someone who has had that statement said to them, that definitely led me to a deep understanding of how I wanted to move forward in faith and ultimately led to a path of deconstruction.
I like how they look at each other when they talk. They look engaged with each other and are truly listening. It is more a conversation between them than with us.
“I don’t want to go through life thinking I’m the worst for being human and needing Christ.” I relate to this as a former Christian and also as an autistic person. Like the way I felt sometimes about being a Christian was like I was pleading and begging for forgiveness from someone and it related to my autism because so many times in my life I have sacrificed my own wellbeing by pretending to be someone I wasn’t so other people will like me. It never worked and it broke my heart many times. I spent my whole life groveling at someone’s feet and it’s fucking exhausting and I’m done doing it. Edit: okay I’m still a Christian but I think I just don’t like church
Oof, I feel that 😩 fellow autistic former christian, I've had to do so much apologizing, so much repressing of my true feelings, so much pretending every single day......and then in the end, it wasn't even worth it! I was so confused and unhappy and I felt like it was my fault. I'm glad I was able to deconstruct on my own time, luckily I was a mostly quiet kid with library access, so that helped me a lot with learning about all the other ways I could live my life. Ihope you're doing better now, fam! ☺️
Wowee... It just clicked that the reason I felt so broken and like I needed God was (at least in part) for my undiagnosed AuDH, as a kid, and constantly being the "bad one" but as I actually got the skills and tools and self knowledge to make sense of my life, I stopped clinging so hard to something (in my case, actually harmful fundamentalist religion): that no longer served me and had actually been hurting me. ❤❤❤❤❤
@@TheSightOfTheStars those moments when things that you've felt conflicted about finally "click" are so valuable and definitely worth celebrating. You love to see it when ppl find inner peace! Good for you! 👏
@@Lulutica02 I hope so. You can kind of see that from how she reacted to Dav deconstructing. I think if she didn't want to eventually do so herself (and she admitted she has been deconstructing parts of her faith), she would've gotten really defensive.
Something that actually did strike me is that in the video that Dav said got him into Zelph on the Shelf, they talk very critically about Bethany and Kristin's views and even bring up the fact that they're weirdly proud of their nazi heritage... and Dav loved that video enough that it had a significant impact on his deconstruction, and he even showed it to Bethany. It makes me hopeful that they're reaching a place where they're actually willing to hear criticism about the problematic aspects of Girl Defined.
Maybe I misunderstood, but I didn't think he showed her that video in particular. I thought he just showed her the one where they reacted to the collab with Paul and Morgan. I think Bethany went off on her own and watch another video or videos after that....but I don't think she said which ones.
@@chewyjello1 it is promising that she continued to watch more of their videos on her own having enjoyed the first one, and that her take away wasn't her usual "oh these non-believers are just lying haters" and was instead a little hurt at them spreading some things she thinks aren't true, but overall still thinking they're good people and decent content creators. That shows a lot of growth from what we've seen in the past, and while she's still standing behind some extremely harmful things, the fact that she's now reached a place where she can watch criticisms of those things in what seems to be good faith is definitely a positive.
I hope they eventually start to see Paul and Morgan in a different light. They've been saying some shitty things about Dav and acting like he's dead and not just figuring out his life.
idk if you noticed but whenever there is a particularly emotional moment for the person speaking, the other turns to look at them and i just feel like thats so healthy to watch and witness!!
I agree. I wondered at first cause Dave's always come across to me as only "half in" at most. But now I think he's actually leading this relationship more than they've really shown, which is clearly a good thing. Not that I blame him, but I didn't realize til this video just how deeply he does love her. I'm rooting for them❤
I’m so proud of Dav for being so public. I live in a place where being an “out” non-Christian gets you treated badly. Being an open atheist here can feel dangerous on occasion. It’s brave. It gives me hope.
I don’t think any part of this is “cringey” Everyone needs to stop calling normal ass shit cringey. It’s harmful. It’s making ppl act faker and older than they are. Let ppl be cringey, especially young ppl. It’s a crucial part of living a happy authentic life. If your cringing over very normal things, that’s a you problem 💜
Eh, my bf and I joke about how cringey we must be to others with our PDA. I think it’s good to have the self awareness that other people might not like what you’re doing, but the confidence to do it anyway (given that it’s not actually harmful lol)
That word has been so overused. People just experiencing joy and being called cringe is so weird. The world is on fire let people who aren't doing anyone harm just live ffs😭
I’m not so much shocked about Dave’s deconstruction…but I’m so surprised he is having the balls to be brave and share this with the world and also that Bethany is supporting him!! That’s amazing!!!
Before seeing this video on my FYP, I’ve only heard kinda negative things about Beth and davs marriage, but all I can see is 2 people who really love each other and communicate well, they seem to have a genuinely loving and supportive marriage, love to see it!
I really love that Paul and Morgan had to be put in a timeout. It's just so poetic. Anyway, Dav and Bethany seemed more like regular humans who actually like each other in this video, and it was great - but, well, I won't spoil all my thoughts on this, lol. Anyone who sings Paul's praises though is suspect... sure, be polite, but that was a *bit* much.
@@chewyjello1I think it was at least in part to put out any fires started by girl defined fans who went after Paul to defend Dev, pre this video. I think that there's also a bit of like "I must prove the angry mean atheist stereotype wrong, and be extra chill and Christlike and good, even when I have the reasonable opportunity not to!" where people who are starting to be public about deconstruction or leaving a faith do too much to try and almost, get ahead of the narratives that will be used against them.
Let's also acknowledge that people generally are on their best behavior when they know they're being watched, but especially when they want to have a good report with you. So Paul being nice to Dave and Bethy is really NOT surprising at all. To me, Paul is exactly the kind of person to act like a Saint when he wants to curry favor and then shit on whoever he doesn't. 🤷🏼♀️
They are just so cute here. I would watch them if they had a channel where they were like this. Also, I LOVE just watching my gf be who she is. I love catching her singing to the animals.. I'll never forget pulling into our neighborhood and seeing her in her bonnet walking our dogs with our cat in his carrier😂. It was so cute and hilarious. Find you a partner that you just enjoy. Someone who is hilarious and fun and heartwarming to simply observe. It's truly the best.
Nothing to add about the content, but the shade of your wall perfectly matches the shade in their closet, so it looks like you are chilling in their wall
@@MellowJelly hey, just a friendly info that Mickey uses "they/them" pronouns 🙂 Edit: sorry, it's actually they/them and she/her, as I've been corrected 😅🌻
"Please know that struggling to speak your truth in a community that is committed to silencing you… doesn't make you weak or bad." I needed to hear that!
I honestly have so much empathy for Dave. It can't be easy to navigate wanting to keep his family together, while also needing to remain true to who he is (as he should). The freedom that comes with deconstructing...I can't imagine he'll ever go back the other way. What an incredibly difficult situation...
I was so floored the first time I saw this video. Up until now I wasn’t sure they even liked each other, but here they seem so incredibly loving and supportive and in sync. The way Bethy let Dav talk through things and sat and listened to him! And honestly the way she said, “I like being a Christian,” felt really raw, like her faith is more to her than the preaching and prescriptiveness. They both have a long way to go, especially Bethany after the harm she’s done over the years, but I have a ton of respect for both of them for this and really hope that they’re able to find peace individually and together in their beliefs.
The “humans are so lowly and terrible but god is great so this is all good news!” Thing actually played a huge part in my deconstruction to, although mine happened long before I’d ever heard the term. I got so sick of going to church and reciting creeds about how terrible I was and gaslighting myself about my wants
saaame, i deconstructed ages ago but hearing dave talk about it is giving me flashbacks to that period, especially when he said “it didn’t feel like good news anymore”. that’s exactly it, i got so tired of being gaslit that this belief system was beautiful and wonderful when in my actual experience it was anything but.
after hearing their barbie review i feel like this was inevitable. This does make me feel hopeful for a better and kinder future for them. This doesn’t change anything they’ve done in the past that has hurt people, but if I cant believe that people can learn and grow into better people, I’d feel utterly hopeless. It may not be the biggest step ever but it is still a step in the right direction of just giving more compassion to others.
If you're interested in another christan couple deconstructing from very hateful views and finding their queer selves along the way - I can highly recommend the "non-binary marriage podcast" by April Ajoy and her spouse Beecher. It's very interesting and gives hope 😊
Right if they can learn to say fewer horrible things that's still fewer harmful words in the world, even if they never become everything we'd hope for them.
I just want to say, thank you fpr providing some education on destigmatizing personality disorders like NPD. In the larger conversation about destigmatizing mental health, a lot of conditions are still villfied or ignored. And your committment to addressing this whenever you see it is really encouraging. ❤
Best news... A sincere former christian giving legit testimony. He always felt right. And his wife is coming alive watching him stand in his truth. This is seriously like life changing for a lot of people. This man is really doing something. I'm very impressed. I'm very grateful. Can we just see this catch fire please? ❤
We don't even need to guess at what Girl Defined would say to Christian women in mixed-faith relationships - they've answered that question in the past exactly the way you guessed they would have. I'm happy that they are able to reconcile their beliefs within their own marriage but what will be interesting and telling is whether Bethany continues to teach girl defined the way she has in the past.
This might be kinda left field but listening to this as a trans man for whom medical transition was important, I'm seeing a lot of overlap in mine and Dav's experiences. Intense denial into internal compromise into more direct questions: "How do I begin to make such a big change? What would that look like? How will it affect the people in my life? Will I still be welcome around them?" Eventually coming to the difficult but liberating decision to be true to yourself, even knowing it'll change those things you were trying to preserve out of a strange mix of fear and responsibility. I can't even imagine what deconstruction must feel like for people who are also realizing they're trans (something I know happens a lot, for obvious reasons), 'cause damn.
The deconstruction had to go first and then time to adjust and figure out what I actually felt when I had gotten back to moving forward steadily and making my own decisions. Had to battle with what is true and fully accept that the severe doubts over the past half decade were just getting more confirmed and it was time to let go. There was just a day where I went to church the last time. I had started to get so disconnected I lost track that it was Lent (This was during COVID). I went to Confession on Easter Saturday in the afternoon if I recall correctly (exCatholic). I was standing outside after and I just realized... this isn't true. It's made up. I don't actually believe this, at all. Zero. I can let it go. Something just stopped that day. The last holdout in my mind conceded to the idea that had been brewing for a lot of years. Lots of people decide it isn't true and struggle to cut the old patterns of thought. I feel like I had replaced most of the old patterns and the old circuits finally closed up and faded away. My trans identity just built up from there. In the trauma of COVID times I was just trying to get by. I left it to sit and not think about much but it stuck around. Deconstruction was like taking off a mask only to find another one underneath? I had to figure out how to get that one off still. But I started a bit over 2 years later. One of the nice things about deconstruction while trans is that I had read about biochemical dysphoria and it sounded like a thing I experienced, though the research is still out on the exact origin of course. My first week with a low dose I could feel the mental difference, I was already healing my mental health in a way that regular psych meds only partly could, that leaving religion only partly could. Like the last barrier to joy had fallen. And it could only be so in direct contradiction to Catholic dogma. It really was false after all. Not many people get an anti-religious experience so on par with religious ones. In that, among many ways, I have been so fortunate. And I'm finally fucking happy. 😂
I was thinking this same sort of thing! I did a little bit of a gender realization moment (I'm nonbinary) at the same time I was finally hitting the "I can't keep doing church" part of my deconstruction, and it was honestly so surreal thinking about how I didn't know which one of those things my former "church family" would be more outraged over. It was really painful at the time, but incredible to find space to be in where I am accepted for who and what I am, as is. ❤
@@MH-wz1rb You might enjoy the "non-binary marriage podcast" by April Ajoy and her spouse Beecher (they/them) about deconstructing and being non-binary. 😊
@@TheSightOfTheStars You might enjoy the "non-binary marriage podcast" by April Ajoy and her spouse Beecher (they/them) about deconstructing and being non-binary. 😊
I was seeing similar connections, too ! And from experience, once I started viewing religion critically, I quickly started allowing myself to look at the conflict I had with gender and sexuality. I become an atheist first, then a few years later, started my medical transition. June will mark my third year on T.
I would say one key difference is that narcissists are incredibly manipulitive. For example: They abuse in private and act nice in public. They play different people against each other behind everyones back, they make snide comments that they than depict as "I just wanted to give feedback" and so on. They gaslight you until you or everybody around you thinks you are crazy. Selfish assholes are less subversive in my opinion.
Tbh I don't think that narcissism is like. A really useful diagnosis at this point. Like ultimately a lot of what ppl claim is npd is really just maladaptive coping mechanisms that have been created through severe trauma. Personality disorders are notoriously difficult to diagnose and, even within the field of psychology, are contentious as diagnoses. I think some people might display what could be seen as "narcissistic traits" or whatever, but I think it's more useful to point out that harmful behavior than it is to try and claim the person exhibiting said behavior has some kind of cluster b personality disorder
people throw the word "narcissist" around a LOT. and i think there's a lot of people in the word who are narcissistIC, but there's far fewer who are diagnosed narcissists. even people who have narcissistic tendencies can be really harmful and abusive. but not all diagnosed narcissists are awful, abusive people. some of them are even in therapy and trying really hard to work on themselves and grow and be better. so yeah, a videop on the nuance and the differences between someone diagnosed with NPD, vs just a person with those tendencies who's a selfish ass would be really useful and informative
@@bottomofastairwell People just reaaaaaaaally want evil disorder to be a thing! It's so nice and clear and black and white when a personality disorder (bpd and npd both get this a lot) is something only bad people have! A nice free for all to hate, under the guise of it being educated and very smart and insightful. It's not. It's just ableism. We just pivoted away from, for example, calling autistic cold hearted people who don't understand others have souls bc we realized oh autism isn't that bad actually (in certain groups that is. anti vaxxers still hate us), and picked something new to hate on. idk it's just... Yeah of course someone with an undiagnosed personality disorder isn't gonna act great. Undiagnosed neurodivergence OFTEN leads to lashing out/negative behaviour, because you literally have no grip on what your brain is doing in a world that isn't built for it. I don't know why we can extend that grace to everyone but npd/bpd ppl.
Hahahaha oh no I'm laughing so hard thinking how ironic it would be that Paul in all his righteous doucheyness was like the last straw that broke the camels back and drove Dave to this epiphany of like 'you know what? I don't wanna be like this guy, I'm done with this shit, come one Bethy, let's go.'
Fundagelical Christianity is the biggest producer of atheists by far! "You can only be acceptable to God if you do this, that, the other thing, that other, other thing, that other, other, other thing, and if you change eeeeeeeeeeverything about yourself. Also, you gotta pick between Jesus and the gays, and Jesus and settled science." "OK, cool, then I guess I'm outie."
Agree with the rules for thee and not for me aspect. I hope that Bethany becomes more understanding and doesn't use the idea that their relationship is "special and different" to keep being overly prescriptive and judgemental to others.
I haven't watched much of their content tbh, but he already seems so much more... natural? At ease? The first word that came to mind was human, but that's not fair (though as someone else who had to unteach themselves a lot of what the church said, that IS how it feels).
Which Church? I wish people would be more specific with this because not all Christian faiths believe this toxic rhetoric about not being worthy. It’s just Catholics and Evangelicals who have these very specific beliefs. Methodists, Presbyterians, and other mainline Christian churches used to be more popular specifically because they don’t enforce guilt or shame.
Mine was non-denominational, and I can definitely say from my time talking to other folks from similar backgrounds that it's not limited to Catholics/Evangelicals. @@sarahnelson8836
Honestly, as someone who grew up Methodist, I agree with this mostly. I remember a larger focus on being "fearfully and wonderfully made in God's image" a lot more than "we are all sinners and must repent." But, that doesn't mean that that concept wasn't present at all. It definitely was! It just wasn't as heavily preached. But we still believed in hell, that you deserve to go to hell (everyone), and that god is the only one that can "clense" you. It's all there, just not as heavy handed.
@@sarahnelson8836 I mean I could say the same for the way Catholicism is taught. We were told sinners CHOSE hell, and there wasn't much talk of being repentant. Still - it's a religion based on a child bride birthing a god in a human body, who is then horrifically tortures and executed and becomes a zombie. And to remember that this is the same god who got pissed off so he flooded the whole globe and murdered everyone on earth except for one family. God is an asshole, plain and simple. If he is real, he doesn't deserve praise any more than stalin or hitler
I’m heavily invested in the dav and Bethy saga. Ever since the Barbie video came out, I knew he had to be deconstructing. This video is very sweet and healthy, but I’m worried about how things are moving forward for them. Bethany has been pretty silent on social media since this came out and Dav’s deconstruction could be pretty detrimental for the girl defined brand.
It was nice for me to hear you talk about how conflicts don’t inherently mean a relationship is going downhill. I feel like too many times I hear people say “if you’re feeling like there isn’t a connection that’s a sign it probably won’t work”, but it really leaves out how there is room to grow. And I think that black and white distinction is quite harmful. Doubts do still appear in good relationships and it’s more about having a willingness to work it through.
Am I first?? Hi!!❤❤ This video started a different turn in my healing journey, from being raised in a strict JW family. It’s amazing to see Bethany reacting this way and it’s healing in some ways, because this is what’s possible. This is love, and acceptance. Bethany still has a a lot of changes to make, but this is still nice to see in this moment. They have religious trauma, just like me, and that shit is hard to navigate, yo!!!
He brought up a great point with the fact that its extra difficult because its not just religion but a community. Questioning and deconstructing puts a huge part of your social network at risk. The more religious you were the more you risk. It really takes a huge amount of courage to make that leap
I find it so odd that so many of the world’s most successful religions require people to believe that they’re awful. We invented these systems of belief and the fundamental tenants of most of them center around the concept that all that stuff you want to do? Bad. In fact everything about you? Filth. Heaven is a zero sum game, you gotta flagellate harder than all the other heathens. I grew up Catholic and left religion at 13, and it took me some years to process it all, but the stage that Dav is at I remember acutely- “you mean I can just choose to not feel like a bad person?” And also- if that god is real he sounds like a real jerk.
Yeah I have never understood why evangelicals are a growing group for this reason when Mainline Christianity is so much less judgmental. I think it might be because mainline Christianity is also more anti-capitalist and more about strength in local communities. That wasn’t really popular for a while there.
The Christian religion has been part of the elite hierarchy since at least the middleages. The reason you were made to feel that you were essentially evil, was that life is a punishment and you'll get your reward in heaven. Rich people were rich because God decided that they were not quite as evil and thats why they are having a better time. They are closer to God. Because they built churches etc. So the rich could continue treating workers like shut and God was ok with that.
I disagree with the criticism that their relationship is not special. I think their lived experience is important here--perhaps they see their relationship as special in comparison with the kinds of marriages they saw growing up or in their current circles. I don't know many fundamentalist couples, but maybe Bethany and Dav realized early on that they had a kind of friendship and love that's comparatively rare in their world. It may seem like a pretty normal good couple to us, but extraordinary to them.
Every healthy loving relationship is special. It is especially special to them because they see fewer of them, so what you are saying makes perfect sense
i think you're right. and i don't think she means that "we're special" but more like, i think we're special to each other and qualified to figure this out together, because we love each other enough to stick this out, instead of just ending things like my previous faith would dictate. i think Bethy saying that is more her defending her relationship against her OWN faith and beliefs than anything else. and like you said, it seems that in a lot of those hardcore fundie circles, most marriages are kind of loveless, at least after the first year or so, because these people get married so quick, for the most shallow reasons, and then shocker, they're not compatible at all. and especially given the "traditional" roles that come with those beliefs, most of those dudes are NOT going to be good partners, so like yeah, she probably hasn't seen a lot of HEALTHY marriage that's built on a foundation of genuine respect and friendship, so she probably feels like wow, we're really different, cuz she has no clue that people out here in the rest of the world, us godless heathens have specifically WAITED to get married so that we could find a partner that we can have that kind of healthy relationship.
I think she will get there. The brainwashing is strong and she’s told that compassion towards the Queer community (among other things she may want to feel in life in general) is a sin on *her* part.
Wow. To see Dav saying he put in the work to look inward and acknowledge traits that are harmful or negative is shocking and so encouraging. It is a very difficult and confronting thing to look inside and say "this behaviour sucks" or "this is a trait commonly seen in narcissists or sociopaths" and to start tracking those behaviours or traits or tendencies with the goal of improving one's self. That is huge. And while NPD does require a clinical diagnosis, people can have various traits from various PDs that don't rise to a clinical level but do require some personal development and scrutiny in order to become a better person. That's uncomfortable work, and very big of him. Bravo.
i love how you always remind your audience to not label people as narcissists. i don't have npd but i do have a cluster b personality disorder as well (bpd), and we get shit on and called horrible things all the time, especially folk with npd are getting shit on the most currently. 'narcissist' seems to be the label of the day, just like 'sociopath' was in 2018 and 'psychopath' was before that. we should label people's actions and behaviours (manipulative, selfish, etc.), not label them as entire people
I can see why you’re frustrated by the hypocrisy that is being shown where Bethany has a different take than the Girl Defined channel. However, sometimes it takes these things happening in your life personally to change the whole outlook. I think it will be frustrating if she continues to have different takes from those she’s expressing now, but we still don’t know yet.
the hard truth is that most people just don't have any incentive to change their foundational beliefs, those beliefs that underly their lives and how they operate in the world, UNTIL it becomes personal to them. and why would they? because confronting and potentially changing beliefs that are foundational to your life, that's freaking terrifying. if you alter one belief, what else changes? everything. and ESPECIALLY when it comes to indoctrination like this, when you have beliefs that have caused real harm, having to confront that means ALSO having to confront your part in causing harm. it means having to face all kinds of guilt for past actions and the harm you've done in the past. And a LOT of people don't want to do that work, because having to sit with the shitty things you've done as a result of your messed up beliefs is uncomfortable as hell. so most people just don't have an incentive to do that kind of work on themselves UNTIL it becomes DEEPLY personal for them. Until their kid comes out as gay or until they find themselves married to someone who's deconstructing. and some people, despite having it become super personal, will never do that work. it can be SUPER frustrating for those of us who chose to challenge our own beliefs and work on ourselves without it needing to be personal, but simply because we have empathy and want to be better. because if we can, why can't they? but like, i also get why most people don't want to sit down and really introspect. my hope here is that his deconstruction will rub off on her and it WILL end up forcing her to think deeply about what she's preached in the past and how harmful some of her messaging has been. we can only hope, right?
yes! it's frustrating but some people just don't have the insight into other people's experience/well-realized empathy to look past their beliefs. my mother, who has always been a really lovely woman and was a pastor for some of my childhood, used to be very homophobic and had a bad reaction to me coming out when i was younger so i never talked about it again until a few years later. she did a lot of work in the meantime and when i talked to her about it again she told me she no longer felt that way and didn't care and loves me no matter what, not despite my sexuality but just for whatever i am. then the rest of my siblings all came out as queer too, and now we're one big happy queer family🤣sometimes people just need to have it shoved in their face a little bit.
Yeah, these were my thoughts as well. I do think they’re problematic, but I think it’s important to allow for and embrace change as it happens. Otherwise people will feel discouraged with changing and like it doesn’t matter because nothing will ever be enough for others. Sure, it’s frustrating that people don’t come around sooner and have empathy, but for many it takes personal impact to understand. Also, I think it’s fine that Bethany feels they’re especially suited to each other. I think it’s a very soulmate/monogamy type of belief which is just fine, but might not be very relatable to Mickey considering they’re polyamorous.
As someone with no skin in the game, I've been a viewer of yours for some time and I've known about girl defined since the cody and noel thing, I think now is the time for bridge building. I know that everyone has a lot of pain and experiences that fuel anger but I really think it'd be better for everyone if we found this common ground with less nitpicking. I'm honestly a stubborn and bitter athiest any other time but I think this could be a win for everyone. The deconstruction sphere is rapidly expanding and many high demand religions are experiencing mass abandonment, and now more than ever I truly think those people need less of a ''leopards ate my face'' gotcha and more understanding that we're all on a journey and some are still so early in it. There are some that will never change sure but at the end of it all we're a species that evolved after a mass extinction event, we experienced rapid intellectual expansion and got high as balls during most of that process as we traversed the connected continents. Entire civilizations rise and fall because of humanities need to understand what we don't know, the mysteries of life and what meaning if any is there? I can understand why many cling to their taught ideas about life and religion, if it's all you know and you're told you couldn't possibly center yourself and your own needs, it may take a strong connection to make it stick. I also dislike when others can't conceptualise how something feels until it happens close to home, but in this instance I can't be bothered to find faults because this all feels like a moment we should actually encourage and show support. Never thought I'd say that but everything has been shit for so long that us vs them is starting to tire me out, and if some can be brought to better understanding I see no problem in it. I know no one owes them the emotional labour but if someone doesn't ever start it, we just prolong the suffering for everyone. Zelph on the shelf, Jordan and McKay, The Antibot and Genetically Modified Skeptic are generally echoing the same sentiments and I would love to see progress for society as a whole come out of this (yes I'm dying on this hill we need a WIN but paul and morgan can sit outside we don't know them)
i left this comment to someone above, but i think it's SO applicable here: "the hard truth is that most people just don't have any incentive to change their foundational beliefs, those beliefs that underly their lives and how they operate in the world, UNTIL it becomes personal to them. and why would they? because confronting and potentially changing beliefs that are foundational to your life, that's freaking terrifying. if you alter one belief, what else changes? everything. and ESPECIALLY when it comes to indoctrination like this, when you have beliefs that have caused real harm, having to confront that means ALSO having to confront your part in causing harm. it means having to face all kinds of guilt for past actions and the harm you've done in the past. And a LOT of people don't want to do that work, because having to sit with the shitty things you've done as a result of your messed up beliefs is uncomfortable as hell. so most people just don't have an incentive to do that kind of work on themselves UNTIL it becomes DEEPLY personal for them. Until their kid comes out as gay or until they find themselves married to someone who's deconstructing. and some people, despite having it become super personal, will never do that work. it can be SUPER frustrating for those of us who chose to challenge our own beliefs and work on ourselves without it needing to be personal, but simply because we have empathy and want to be better. because if we can, why can't they? but like, i also get why most people don't want to sit down and really introspect. shit is scary as hell." I think you're SO RIGHT though. That approaching anyone who's willing to even begin doing the work or think about their own views and why they believe what they believe with kindness and willingness to help them CONTINUE to grow and learn, can be SO VALUABLE. everyone has to start somewhere. And it's SO difficult to overcome indoctrination when it's all you've ever know your entire life. but if we can instead approach these kinds of people with kindness and empathy, especially from a place of like "hey, i used to be where you are now. I started there too, i get it. but i'm glad you're on this journey, and i'd love to help you along," then we can encourage and further their growth. And that's a win for everyone. cuz like you said, no one can grow if they don't start. and everyone has to start SOMEWHERE.
@@bottomofastairwellyes, so much both of y'all's comments!! ❤ I love that Bethy and Dav are actually in touch with zelph on the shelf and will have them over because that's the so needed bridge building right there! And can you imagine the positive influence a deconstructing (at least the harmful beliefs) Bethy could have on her community/following?!😮 It could be a massive ripple effect... Fingers crossed! 🤞 I am sooo curious how this will continue to develop.
RE: your points at the end about PD's - it is SO frustrating when people just casually throw around narcissist casually. My mother was not diagnosed, however multiple psych(iatrist/ologist) of my own have suggested it as a possibility, I had an abusive ex who was diagnosed BPD. I certainly had a fear for a while of BPD, but then I found out someone I had worked with previously was diagnosed with BPD and she had always been the kindest most loving person and it really made me re-evaluate and realize that I was painting with a very broad brush. I think the biggest issue I have with the use of narcissist or NPD/BPD is that they aren't being used diagnostically or in an attempt to classify and educate, they're used to denigrate, to mock, to other. They are used as an insult, to point out the flaws of a person and conflate it to an entire identity that they can then impress their own thoughts upon. It is so frustrating, and I've even gotten into arguments with people in the comments here about this. About Paul. Honestly, I think that far too many people are far too casual with what they say, and they don't consider what they're saying, what it can mean, or what effect it can have on "society" at large.
Yeah I fully agree. I also think people don't realise having a PD is actually awful in itself, it doesn't make it okay to be abusive (but also obviously not everyone with NPD is abusive) but people seem to think narcissism is about wanting to hurt other people. There are a lot of people who want to / don't care about hurting other people that have nothing to do with narcissism. And there are a lot of people with NPD (or any PD) who are passionate about making sure they do not hurt other people. But many people with PDs who are manipulative and hurting others are doing so as a result of their own extreme inner turmoil. Personality disorders are literally based around very firm maladaptive coping mechanisms that protected you when you developed them but are ultimately harmful and difficult to unlearn. If as a child the only way to survive in your family dynamic was by being 'manipulative' and that's the way you learn how to handle your emotions and your existence basically (keeping in mind that growing up it is your normal, and you aren't aware that it's manipulative or possibly hurtful, you're just trying to get through the day) it IS extremely difficult and heart wrenching to try to navigate the world in a way that feels unsafe and dangerous to you, even if it is ultimately the healthy way to do things, because it WAS unsafe to go about it that way as a child. Again that doesn't negate the harms you can cause to others but I hate the narrative that it's just being an asshole for the sake of it. People with PDs who are working on themselves to become safer people and function better for themselves also, should receive support & not name-calling.
I'm very much of two minds about conditional empathy. On one hand, yeah, i do wish people would see the value in everyone without having to "make it about themselves" but on the other... as long as the end result is greater empathy and a healthier world outlook, I think it's valuable. Especially if they can then take their own experience and extend it outward (ie. my husband is no long christian and is still a good person and so other people who are not christian must also have the potential to be good people too). It's better than never learning empathy at all. I'm eating crumbs, I know.
It IS brave to deconstruct and a strength that can come out of that is evaluating who you are and the harm you’ve been taught to do in that process, and putting a stop to it…as an exvangelical this pulls at my heart, and hope for change 💛
I'm so happy that Dav and Bethany have such a good relationship foundation. They actually like each other, which is more than some couples (Paul and Morgan) can say. This would never go down so amicably if not.
1:10:22 It’s interesting that Dav’s integrity is something that Bethy notes as ‘not cookie-cutter’ to Christianity. It was enough to make him stand out against allllll the Christian men who might’ve been potential suitors. I wonder if she has or would explore that thought more - “my husband’s integrity, even though it’s leading him away from the religion I thought we shared, has allowed him to shine more as himself, as my husband, and as a father. What might that mean about the examples of husbands/fathers i have seen around me for 30+ years?”
This is tender to watch and hits home in a lot of ways. My husband and i were both Mormon when we met and married, and now six years on we've both left the church and deconstructed entirely. It has been really challenging, but I think having a partner through this has been so helpful and comforting. We are stronger than ever, and I hope that Dav and Bethy can grow stronger as individuals, as parents, and as a couple.
Ouu can't wait to hear your take. Honestly I'm glad for the new growth for Bethy & Dav, and I hope that Girl Defined's content becomes more positive moving forward.
I hope they move more towards mainline Christianity. A lot of what Dav seems to be reacting negatively to is specifically evangelical Christian beliefs
So excited to have you take on this 😊😊😊!!! Paul and Morgan bring no added value whatsoever to anything to definitely think their time out is a good idea!!! I also love your podcast❤❤
Listening to them share how lovely Paul and Morgan are and how kindly Paul treated Morgan, etc., made me smile. Whether they've been taught to be polite guests or there was masking going on (I don't think that) most people behave themselves around one another in social situations. Their observations of P&M's could be accurate, but in truth, they don't know.
Although, getting closer to the end of the video I'm still getting a severe lack of accountability on Bethany's part. It's another sudden change without acknowledging the change at all, just behaving as if this is how accepting and cooperative with folks who disagree with her views she's always been.
This is HARD WORK it’s hard to come to terms with questioning a belief system that threatens eternal damnation that threatens your reputation in your community and relationships to your family and friends it’s hard and I’m proud of them for starting the process
this is genuinely such a beautiful, thoughtful and deeply refreshing conversation. that doesn't erase the harm that they've done, but i really hope to see more of this from them in the future and that she can continue to further deconstruct
I feel like it’s important to acknowledge too that the fear of destructing because your whole life is centered around a certain type of belief is a feature not a fluke in fundamentalism.
I wish they weren't so public so that they could undergo this process privately but i also am happy this is public so that so many people can see how much freeer dav looks
I love this! I was wondering if you would talk about this, and the way you called yourself out for being wrong was so beautiful. One thing that stuck out to me was that they both seemed to make a huge effort not to speak for the other. They would say something and then backtrack, like I don’t know how you would say that. It’s very different from past videos.
I randomly stumbled across this channel a few days ago and I gotta say that I love your content. Your perspective on relationships, religion, and mental health are a refreshing and gracious take on the issues.
I'd like to speak on the taught self-hatred in Christianity. I was raised in a super devout Christian home. My dad was a southern Baptist preacher until I was 12. We had a terrible church experience with some really nasty people and he stopped preaching after that. Music was huge in my childhood and even though I'm no longer a Christian, I still listen to contemporary Christian music from my childhood. The other day, I listened to a song I hadn't heard in a while. "Need You to Love Me" by Barlowgirl. I immediately turned it off. I won't put the full lyrics here (definitely look them up if you're interested) but the whole premise of the song is that we don't deserve God's love. We question why he's still with us when we're so broken. I've been in therapy for a year now. And a lot of my self-discovery has been the fact that I have been conditioned to think poorly of myself. That I'm not worthy. That it's a gift I don't deserve when people love and value me. It's been difficult and painful. I am so encouraged to see Dave rejecting this dogma in the same way. It doesn't feel good to hate yourself. Shouldn't a loving God make you feel good?
They need to STOP wondering why people like us are the easiest prey for Narcissistic spouses. Our first love was an imaginary, self-grandiose genocidal maniacal narcissist who gaslit us into believing he did something great for us by sacrificing himself to himself per the rules he wrote himself.
Shout out to those of us out there who didn’t have empathy about something until it was personal. Sometimes things just won’t click. I don’t think that necessarily makes you a bad person.
Great minds! The first thing I noticed was that they just seemed so much more relaxed, authentic, and human! This is the first time my amygdala didn't immediately register Bethany as a threat.
Never in a million years I would have thought to shed a tear watching these two interact but here I am getting emotional watching them caring for each other. This is one of the realest videos I've ever seen from them
Mickey, I just want to say I wish we were friends in real life!! People like you are so rare and hearing you in your episodes is so refreshing. The empathy, the compassion, the way you speak. Everything just makes sense to me ! Love your channel!
mickey!! this is such a wonderful video!! i know you're worried about your impact and the energy you're bringing to the internet when talking about fundamentalism and the like. i think this was an incredible representation of how to be constructive, kind, and overall incredibly useful around this type of topic. this feels almost like the "old" mickey vids where you did more tips and teaching format rather than an almost debate style (armed with your expertise and integrity, of course). i think this is a really lovely balance you've created
I have never heard you refer to yourself as autstic before. I'm thinking, "well, duh, you knew on some level you gronk on the same wavelength, makes sense."
I'm really happy for them as a couple, but can you imagine being a fan of theirs who dumped a good man because Girl Defined said he wasn't worth it because he's not Christian? I would be hurt watching this. It's fair to say that Bethy could have grown a lot since the early days of her career, but there is no undoing the harm she and her sister caused.
