there are millions of antique Japanese swords. what about European ones?  

Unlike in japan, weapons in Europe generally had very little sentimental value beyond perhaps a familial heirloom. Whereas it wouldve been sacrilegious to reforge a sword blade into a scythe or plow in japan, europeans did it without issue. Outsise of particular nobles weapons Europeans viewed a majority of weapons pf war as just tools like any other. What swords that are left are often gifts or peace offerings. Like the Alexandrian Swords gifted from I beleive Venice to the Egyptian Mamluks. Well made and preserved longswords made from mid to high carbon spring steel.

Comparatively to Japan, iron was relatively easy to access. So if you could access a sword, losing a sword would not be a huge deal. Therefore, there was no culture of sword preservation that developed to the extent as it did in Japan. Also, Europe doesn't have great conditions for preserving swords. On top of that, most swords that might still be in good condition are all going to be in a museum or in someone's collection. They're almost definitely not going to be circulating at all. On top of that, a huge number of swords, as well as many other artifacts, and fossils, that were lost in museums when Germany, Britain, and other nations were bombed during WWII.

From what I've seen, there are still many, many 19th and late 18th century European swords in circulation. Certainly tens or even hundreds of thousands. They were mass produced in factories for the all the Great Powers. They were literally part of the uniform of everyone from NCO's to diplomats. They get increasingly rare once you get pre-Napoleonic/pre-industrial. Swords from the 17th to mid 18th are more expensive but findable from what I've seen. By the 14th century what we have left tend to be museum pieces only, and most of them are in rough condition. Migration and Roman era swords are incredibly rare. It's literally world news when a new gladius is found, as we saw with the recent finds in Israel.

I’ve collected swords for most of my life and what you usually find from Europe are mass produced swords usually from Germany from the time of the German empire and ww1. These swords are fairly easy to find. Then you can get swords going back to the Napoleonic wars (so 200 years ago) not quite as easily and they’re a lot more expensive. After that swords become extremely hard to find and very valuable. You’re just not going to see a medieval knight’s sword for sale anywhere. Maybe certain stores in Europe have these but I’ve never seen any. I’m in the US and have had a lot of collector friends and the oldest European sword I’ve seen was probably 1770s era. But the oldest sword I’ve seen was a Japanese sword from about the 1400s

I have a cavalry sword from the early 1700s. It’s still in very good shape. I’m pretty sure it was rehilted in the last hundred years though.

From what I understand, the lack of antique european swords at least in part comes from how they were stored. They were kept inside their leather scabbard, which ultimetaly rotted, and the humidity eventually destroyed the sword until it wasn't in a state in which it could be repaired anymore. In comparison, japanese swords were better maintained, and when not in used were stored outside their sheath, without the handle and other parts which could trap moisture.

of course it's hard. Katana design stabilized in cca 13th century and japanesse preserve historic artefacts. Can you imagine Napoleon's troops fighting with 13th century swords?

There are literally thousands available especially from the 17th through 19th centuries, but many of them are in museums - there are entire arsenals with thousands of antique european swords which were essentially converted into museums with their inventories intact. The point where it begins to be truly difficult to find antiques is around the 1600CE mark and earlier

It is exceedingly difficult to find any European swords on the _private market_ over 200 years old, yes. But there are countless examples far older in museums. Most of them are in storage rather than exhibited, and the vast majority of these have been preserved by mother nature rather than human owners, until found by archaeologists, at least.

The Royal armouries in Leeds has all of them

one of the issues is that sword styles changed all the time in europe while japan stuck with the Katana, Europe in the 15 century used long swords as well as a wite range of other blades, once reliable firearms came around we see things like rapiers and single edge sabers becoming the weapon of choice due to armor not being a thing anymore, Then the militarys tend to go from favoring slashing sabers to straight edged thrusting sabers on and off until just before ww 1

During World War II, it was quite common to take an old katana and give it military plastic fittings. Most officers carried these kinds of swords and there are probably a ton of them in the US taken from the battlefield. I know because I have one in my garage.

Scholagladiatoria has a fantastic video on European vs. Japanese sword preservation. It mostly boils down to Japanese swords retaining the same general style and being refitted into newer koshirae, even in WWII. Europeans would likely recycle metal as newer styles of sword came about. As a Portuguese man in 16th Century Japan once said, Japan's styles are slow to change and remain the same. Europeans are constantly seeking to partake in the next trend.

It's going to be mostly hunting swords from germany, french cuttoes and varrious hangers in any kind of shape and available.

i don't know much about collecting but museums are full of, i'd say, late medieval period/renaissance to early modern european bladed weaponry and similar stuff. I remember visiting Castello Sforzesco's Civic Museum and its armory in Milan (Italy) and it was full of them. Milan was an industrial hotspot for cold steel weapons back in that timeframe. I visited quite a number of museums, armories and temporary exhibitions throughout Italy always saw this kind of stuff. I'm not sure but I can be wrong I didn't see many items from middle ages proper, let's say 1000-1200 in good condition but my memories are a bit blurred. I visited Louvre once and I think I saw something there too but I admit I focused on art stuff and then on archeological stuff (prehistory and ancient time) that one time

I think it's a culture difference between the two pleaces. In Europe most swords where seen as tools so where more disposable but if I remember right in Japan they where more thought as heirloom so where looked after.

Anything revolutionary war based is pretty easy to find, you just have to know where to look. I'd say a good comparison when it comes to Japanese swords is Edo era and later are a lot easier to find than finding something from the Warring States period with it's original fittings. Japan would reuse blades over long periods of time where it is viable over 200 years though that doesn't happen with European swords and the rapid changing of sword design, plus you also have how they saw metals like iron and steel. Japan was a island with far more limited resources than about any European nations especially when you add trade in as well.

There are still many blades from up to 500 years ago as that's when arsenals became a thing. Still, probably most swords are now in the hands of museums, or the state.

Someone call Matt Easton

You should try find a Saingeom from Korea. They are extremely significant as you can make them once every 12 years on the year of the tiger (yup).

"I would suspect that if an antique sword of any kind was available for purchase that it would be fake." Lol what kind of logic is that? Antiques are literally out there to be purchased lmao.

I think people are confusing fake with authentic. There are hundreds if not thousands of antique swords out there, that being said forgery was a common practice, so a smith might forge the signature of a far more famous smith or an apprentice might sign the name of their master or their company, you likely are buying a sword that is hundreds of years old but you would need a specialist to verify its authenticity if it does not come with papers verifying its authenticity.

Anything beyond 1500 would be quite rare. Anything behind that is more likely to be from an archaeological source rather than a heirloom piece.

Completely different cultures. The entire culture of reverence around Japanese swords comes from the absolute dedication and discipline it takes to make a quality sword out of what is literally pig iron. Europeans had iron and steel coming outta the wazoo.... the old beat up sword got turned into a scythe or other implement, they could just go down the road and find another sword if needbe. Japanese family's held onto and coveted the sword because it was literally priceless.

Their are plenty of European weapons that are older than 200 years but due to the culture around weapons being different (in Europe that are seen as mostly a tool) and so not as much reverence has been given to them over the years so finding old swords in good condition is rare.

I look for 17th century German or Polish weaponry. Swords aren't that common but they're still available. Axes, spears and pole axes are common. Muskets are very rare.

The oldest sword I have seen in person was a napoleonic royal guard sword. It was made in 1810 and was owned by a private collector that I met at a ball. He had the sword with him. That sword would be just barely over 200 years old. The only other swords that may be somewhat common are swords from the American revolution, as they were treasured and passed down from generation to generation, those would be about 230 years old.

We kept on killing each other. Swords just became obsolete

Antique European swords come in 3 main flavours: - Victorian curios and reproductions - Highly valuable, ceremonial or State swords - Thousand year old, diminished relics pulled from the ground That's about it

I think the cultures around swords not only as weaponry but as art was different. And it's worth noting that European sword design varied greatly over the medieval period, but unfortunately a lot of these swords weren't cared for or preserved the same as Japanese swords and thus rusted into the earth. Of course there are still some brilliant examples of medieval armor and weapons still preserved, but a lot of it rusted away or was repurposed into other tools. At the advent of black powder weaponry, swords in Europe were slowly being phased out while it took longer for Japan to see this change due to Japan's location. When firearms took over the battlefield, the role of the sword was more symbolic or a backup option. Swords were phased out for more compact and lightweight bayonets, and as firearm technology advanced, even bayonets are being phased out. Now you have the combat knife which serves more as a glorified MRE opener than anything combat related. Knife kills in combat are very rare these days because of how our military is structured and how firearm's technology has advanced. That being said, I would always rather have a blade on me than need one and not have one, even if it's just for opening boxes.

People don’t realize how recently samurai’s were like most of the stereotypical history we think of happened in like the 1500’s just a couple hundred years ago when compared to like Rome or Ancient Greece which was 2,000 +

while not actively collecting european antiques, i have quite a few friends that do and we talked about this exact topic before. while something like storage and culture does play a role they arent the only things that matter, one key difference is sword distribution. samurai as a caste are quite big and at the very least since the edo, but probably as soon as the first shogunate ruler was established. samurai having quality swords were a thing. at the very least, every samurai (till the empoverishment in the edo period) had a blade of somewhat quality. while for knights, that wasnt necassarily the case. we can also assume that most "peasant swords" of both europe or japan usually werent well preserved. now finally the culture part plays a role. in japan, there were simply more high quality blades of earlier times that were appreciated more deeply and were cared for with more energy. For European high class it made little sense to preserve a sword that wasnt worthy of their status in their eyes. a sword surviving over multiple generations was just immensely more likely in japan

As just about everyone has said so far, European swords weren’t considered sacred for the vast majority of owners. Swords of nobility were probably passed down a couple generations till either it got stolen or the sword got destroyed in combat. As for the Japanese as far as I can tell swords are practically considered religious artifacts and as such are maintained through countless generations. Even if the sword was stolen it was probably still revered in that way and so more ancient Japanese swords that are intact exist comparatively to European

The reduced supply has to do with the role the sword played in Europe before the 19th century. It generally being a side arm rather than a main weapon, naturally lowering its usage to a wealthier demographic (being able to afford a secondary weapon). However since it's primarily a side arm it now has to compete with daggers, axes, maces and etc. All of which have better anti armour capabilities than swords, something thats pretty important since good quality iron was far more available allowing more soilders to be equipped. For example, by the end of the hundred years war it was rather common to have foot soilders equipped in brigindem/coats of plates. Something that a sword would struggle with dealing. This changing in the 19th century since guns and large armies had made armour obsolete allowing cutting swords to come back into prominence.

problem with european swords is the preserving practices, regular swords that were not part of nobility didnt have that luxury of been kept in shape. i think mr easton of scholagladiatora explains better the issue

Little In Europe sword was a tool not a collectors item so when their usefulness ended they were melted down

It has to do with the avalability of iron/steel in europe. European Iron was of such good quality and so abundant that often blades were recycled for use as other weapons and a new sword made to replace the repurposed one. the only blades we have left that are that old are heirlooms, diplomatic gifts, and royal regalia. Blades that already had that sentimental value to avoid being disposed of.

I like the ones that are over 500 years old cuz they were likely used to kill a demon see a lot of people don't realize but some swords were actually designed to kill demons...

I inherited 6 swords 3 from the 1850's and 3 from the 1930's/40's.

I own two museum quality European swords. 1) 1906 (118 yrs old) This one has a strong known lineage of who owned it, and what battles it was in. I purchased it in 2001 for $9600. The family has contacted me twice over the last two decades to acquire it. But im not ready to sell it. I'll probably gift ot to them at some point down the road. 2) A dress sword from 1697 (estimated, it could be as late as 1705). 319-327 years old. I bought this at auction in 1999 for $3100. No known lineage. And designed for formal dress. Fun fact, to the absolute horror of my instructor amd fellow students, I used this in class when I took light saber fencing! But only for about month. 8 classes or so. While I had supreme confidence in its craftsmanship to handle the contact. I still got nervous after a while and replaced it with a modern one for sparring. . I have no idea what either are worth today. Both are displayed on a wall behind glass in my home.

In Europe, swords were just a tool (if a killing tool), so if yours broke and/or you didnt need it, you get rid of it

Consider asking Matt Easton from the scholar gladatoria channel. This is literally his job

I had no idea that there was so many Japanese swords available or still in existence. That's pretty remarkable

European swords were mostly considered tools. In terms of production there was by orders of magnitude more swords made in Europe than in Japan. And most of them were much cheaper than Japanese swords. It was simply the case of abundance of good steel in Europe vs relative scarcity of good steel in Japan. A sword in Japan was a major investment most of the time. And while munition grade swords did exist, but generally they aren't preserved. Collector Market for European swords is quite small, swords older than 200 year old generally end up in museums, not traded.

Military collector. European is very hard to find. The vast majority is in private collections and museums, good luck finding anything that old that doesn't cost an arm and leg.

I believe that for European peoples it was seen as much of a tool as one has a hammer or scythe so people wouldn’t try to preserve them unless they were of true value (like one commissioned by a noble) while in the East I think the value of one’s sword was way higher.

I'm no expert, but I would suspect that a part of the reason that antique European swords are harder to get is because they are either museum pieces, family heirlooms, already bought by people who are unwilling to sell them, or, especially for very old swords, part of a grave.

It's not that they're not out there it's more that they're almost all Nobel heirlooms or have been in the hands of collectors treating them as such

It's very likely due to the history and progression of weaponry in the respective regions. Prior to the kamakura period (c 1192 - 1333), the weapon of choice was a straighter bladed chokuto. Following Ieyasu's unification of Japan (c 1599), the katana became status symbols rather than weapons so there was only a period of about 400 years where the katana was used primarily as a weapon. Compare this to the 1000 year period of the Middle Ages where swords were a weapon. Even further, during the Tokugawa period a shorter weapon came to the forefront - the wakizashi. And during the Edo period, regulations were put in place as to what a katana could be like and who could carry one further cementing the katana as a ritual or decorative piece. So for most of the history of the katana, it wasn't used as a weapon while the European swords spent most of their period of use as weapons. So more katanas survive.

Different contexts. You guys have loads of super well preserved swords up to around 1000ya. Here we have fewer and in much rougher condition but we have loads of truly ancient bronze age pieces and in good shape, dating back to as far as thousands of years BC.

The thing is the vast majority of European swords were manufactured as munitions grade equipment particularly for the likes of skirmishers and mounted men under arms. Much like how a Japanese samurai might be equipped with a bow or a spear and their sidearm would be a tachi, A European soldier filling the same role would be far greater in number and equipped with munitions grade weapons and armor. A big part of this just comes down to the way war was viewed. War in Europe between the various kingdoms was just as much if not more so a matter of business than it was a matter of pride and prestige. I genuinely think this goes along way to explain why technology as far as weaponry and the infrastructure and industry for said weaponry advanced so quickly in the west compared to the east because for the last 2 1/2 thousand years Europe has been in a state of a continuous war time economy. Compare this to say Japan where might have as long as two centuries without a major regional conflict. As an example, the years between the rise of the Tokugawa shogunate and the emergence of the Meiji restoration most conflicts were between individuals or small gangs as opposed to small states or entire nations. Hell Italy and Germany for most of their history I’ve been in a state of endless civil war. Really only within the last century and a half have either nations stabilized the point where they could be considered a unified country. And the only reason those two nations stabilized was that they would stop getting bullied by all their neighbors instead beat the shit out of them in turn

In Japan weapons were seen as more, don’t know the exact word but it was more sacred, whereas in Europe most weapons were just seen as a means to an end. Plus most were cheaply made, some times out of farming equipment to achieve a mission and then reforged back into tools, it’s only if you have a very nice looking weapon would you pass it down as a family airloom and it would become the family’s weapon that you hang up somewhere and it’s kinda in bad taste to try and sell it.

There are some, but they are mainly in museums. If you closely observe antique European swords, even high status ones, you will see bunch of imperfections in fit and finish that do not affect their function, which signals to me that swords were treated as tools, not objects of beauty or spirituality, so main reason for a sword being preserved is it either belonged to notable person or was involved in some significant historic event. There were auctions of used swords documented in pre-Renaissance period where lower status soldiers could buy used swords cheap, so even if they survived the campaign they might have been reworked into tools, crossbow limbs, brigandine armor, also stored inappropriately or even discarded.

Once in a blue moon you might find some 15th century European blade or some that are even older but compared to Japanese blades it's like trying to find a needle in a haystack. I can count on one hand how many times I've found Medieval European blades at Arms & Armour fairs meanwhile I can almost guarantee you that you'll find at least 4 guys at these fairs selling Japanese blades

Not only were European swords, very easy to replace, and usually with no sentimental value, they also generally, we’re not stored in an environment that kept the sword safe along with many of them never having coverings or being kept in a sheath or scabbard.

Japan's respect for the sword, the smith and the creator reflects in the numbers. ❤

As Zekeolopwi6642 said, yes, most european swords were valuable. Steel that needed to be kept and reused continuously. Most swords that stayed swords, were broken or damaged and rusted away in open fields, or were buried/sunk with their dead owners. Otherwise they are heirlooms, or historic symbols. It just didnt make sense to own a sword but need a plow. When a bow and arrow would do for self defense/hunting in the eras being discussed.

Thank you for your information. Very helpful. I am researching antique Japanese swords for investment purposes. I didn't realise there are millions out there. I have A LOT of research to do 😂

A bit difficult to find, but you can definitely find loads if you know where to look. You can pick up a M1789 British sword for like 300e. I have 1 you can have for 200 if you want it. It’s damaged on the hilt tho and pretty rusty

most of Europe was never as tradition oriented as Japan, for the knights and even more for other kinds of sword users their weapon was tools in the first place. one kind was replaced by the other- longswords were rid of after rappiers were introduced, rappiers were replaced by sabers and so on. also European fencing styles suggested blocking with the cutting edge, this is where crossguards came from, while kenjitsu often uses blocking and parrying with the flat of the blade, tsuba grants that, and iaido does not suggest blocking at all. therefore european swords were often damaged and destroyed in use or got rid of without use, while japanese swords were kept as family relics

Do a video on the drying pole sword used by certain smeri

I think it also has to do with the weapon value of the katana and a European arming sword or long sword, the samurai kept their katanas clean and always prepared for battle and although it wasn’t uncommon for them to break in battle it was seen as more of a tragedy then say if a knight broke his sword.

I wish I could like tag or mention robinswords in this short

Depending on where you are, 18th/19thC is pretty easy, 16th/17thC significantly harder, medieval exceptionally difficult and/or very expensive *on the market*. Many examples in museums and private collections, but also many blades that were repurposed, sold abroad, etc.

Warfare was much more common in Europe they went through swords and armor far more often than in Japan as well the Japanese swords having some form of sentimentality to them that’s why it’s harder to find antiques of European blades than Japanese.

I have saw and would love to have an ancient katana that was created by a master bladesmith such a Masamune or Muramasa ect. They are masterpieces of both beauty and lethality.

Japanese black Smiths are the masters of making swords

European swords are one piece and we're expected (according to historic accounts) that after a battle to appear more like a saw blade than a sword I believe most medeval swords past 500 years ago were just turned into another sword after smashing against a knights helmet

iirc most antique European swords have been modified from their original design (pieces being redeisngned and replaced by collectors) heavily damaged, or turned into scrap metal to several another purpose (forks spoons, farming tools). Not all European swords were the status of nobility or something you'd want to keep around.

DO THE WHOLE ALPHABET

It depends on your definition of a sword. If you just want the blade, then there are plenty of European swords (found in archaeological sites) dating back to the Bronze Age have been found. As far as being in working order goes, though, most of the examples of ancient European swords we have today were badly neglected for decades or even centuries, as it wasn’t until relatively recently that weapons like that started to be seen as valued collector’s items

“European swords” is also a huge statement considering it could be a Gladius from the 1st century, a Seax knife from the 5th century or a bastard sword from 1300 or a claymore from 1600 or broadsword from 1700 or a cavalry Sabre from 1850. All of these being from relatively or vastly different cultures, places and zeitgeists. A seax knife might as well have been a katana to the wielder of a gladius. A cutlass and a Viking ulfberht sword are as foreign to each other as the previous comparison. A lot of uninformed commenters here are misled into thinking European weapons were a “tool” this is not true for many European cultures especially Celtic and Germanic people who often believed even into the late Middle Ages that swords had a spirit/soul. Vikings and other German people across northern and Central Europe had very similar beliefs to the Japanese about respecting tools let alone weapons that had been handed down from father to son, giving them not only the weapon’s power but the power of your forefathers. I can’t imagine the Slavic people had dissimilar beliefs. It just becomes criminal and blatantly political when people deny these things… I mean, even if you went back to the Jacobite armies of the mid 18th century you’d be hard pressed to find a man who wouldn’t swear on his sword for his king. People are brainwashed.

Ask Matt Easton! After promoting RAID Shadow legends he’ll give you exact number😅

My brother found a 1500 century family sword in the back of an empty U-haul truck he rented. It was placed in the corner of the rear over-head door frame standing up. While driving down the street, he could hear it rattling in the back.

Japanese swords were passed down from father to son, the same as European ones, but most European ones were buried with their owners, so they rusted, and the ones that have survived and are in good condition are in muse

Japan had a culture of preservation. I own and have seen plenty of antique katanas I ve seen one anglo saxon era sword that barely made it through the ages

I say you just buy a sword and wait 200 years for it to ripen to this legendary antique sword

If you want Japanese swords, go to the families that still makes them today... That way, you're supporting the continuation of an age old craft, and prevent it from dying out!

Really want a fully functional katana like sword....b would be great for cutting my hunting trails in the off season

It's very easy to get one. Eastonanticarms sells europen sword mostly

Its the sentiment. Swords were just tools in Europe. Rarely inherited, usually used to failure. Not to mention the tradition of being buried with their sword which is why if we DO find old swords they are usually in graves.

The difference in aged swords is the culture around the swords

Once again the Japanese were always ahead as far as craftsmanship and quality even way back then also I believe they had more appreciation for the art

It is known that since Iron was way more rare in Japan than in the rest of the world, Japanese sword smiths made only high quality blades, whereas in the rest of the world, swords were less rare and less valuable. Also in Japan, owning a sword was a sign of status and power. Most Europeans didn't care to keep and maintain old swords that were not the best in craftsmanship. Europeans saw swords as tools, that would be thrown away once a better tool would be created. The Japanese saw sword-making as an art, an important tradition, something to take pride in. Europeans didn't have the tradition to pass on swords of great craftsmanship from generation to generation. That's how I see it, from my humble and limited knowledge.

Weapons in Europe, were more so treated as tools, unless ceremonial of some kind, sadly not as much care was put into them and thus many are lost to time.

It's probably very difficult to determine exactly how many are around from any period, although from 17thC onwards european swords are still fairly common. But european swords were almost entirely military supply from the middle ages on, and so they tend to be in collections whether private or museums/estates. We have not had a big sword culture like japan did. Even in the middle ages when swords were commonly worn there was not a culture dedicated to the swords as japan has. They were often more of a tool and a status item which became irrelevant when the fashions changed in civillian life and in military use were nothing more than a tool.

I want a sword but only if its a real one

Well what do people consider antique is my question, I personally think of at least 100 years old as antique

not millions but several thousands if not tens, even older than 200

Most euro and indo euro sword including American are either on a family mantle or a museum and the rest are either destroyed or a collector has them some are barried with they're owners.

Bruh, 200 years old is US Civil war times. Plenty of civil war swords

There are a fair amount of 1800 and 1900's military sabers, but as it fell out of favor it became far rare to see. That being said. Old Black powder are FAR more common. Even older bolt action rifles, with Japanese Rifles being far rarer.

It is true. I have worked in a sword shop for about 22 years. I've got a 580-year-old Katana and a 100-year-old sword of Mars but no European swords. I have not come across an old European sword

It’s mind-blowing that someone can buy a 500-year old sword for under $2000. The polish won’t be museum-quality, but depending on age, condition, koshirae and special aspects, relatively easy. Just have to do the legwork to make sure the dealer is legitimate. Judgment papers are always a plus!

True

look at variation of European and Japanese sword design.

Far fewer than Japanese sword and when you do find one it's generally priced substantially higher than a Japanese equivalent.

It seems like it was a matter of tradition. Japanese swords were taken care of for generations, while European swords were melted down and metal repurposed. If Europe had a similar tradition, we would see many more European swords.

So older than about 500 is rare older than 200 is the time of Napoleon and they are fairly common the thing with European swords is they were more economical and weren't held as family heirlooms so the ones that survived were trophies or high end swords then add the fact most people who speak English have a certain type of sword in their mind as a sword where other European states had different swords that we wouldn't call a sword like a falchion that is a sword but we don't call it a sword

Mostly. Japan swords where honoured longer snd took on spiritual meaning. European swords where honour but tools wepaons and old ones that fell out of Foyle or use where surplus to requirements. Spiritual meaning was lower outside of a few special or niche areas. Add style snd design, of European weoaons changed alot, alot faster than Japan. We where rapidly changing how warfare was defined