The first officer is clearly a young fellow and this was probably his first emergency. You can hear a bit of quiver in his voice at the beginning of the incident but by the time he was working with the controller to get set up for final you can hear him realizing that pilots can rely on their training and proficiency to deal with non-normal situations and make it home alive. Congrats, sir. Well done.
The A team was on duty for sure. ATC probably does not get much practice directing no-gyros vectors, but the controller was masterful. As a retired avionics type, I would be super interested in knowing just what the hell went wrong with that airplane. It sounded a lot worse than just having the IRS locked in attitude mode.
I'd imagine the entire team at JFK / NY Center / etc in that region is the A team, 24/7. That airspace, and the one around the Capitol, are both so insanely sensitive to national security concerns, and JFK/LGA/EWR is even more congested. I would suspect only the best of the best make the cut to sit in those seats. Everything in that region is just turned up to 11/10.
Hope the FAA does a deep look at how the heck a commercial passenger jet looses redundant systems. That failure on an Atlantic crossing out of radar coverage or even in weather, could likely be catastrophic. The stupid thing is, a $500 adsb receiver with adhars connected to the pilots ipad would be a valid backup.
Spectacular performance by him. I could imagine him sitting right up in his chair just fully focused on detailed precise and concise instructions. Just spectacular
You can hear a little bit of nervousness in the (I am guessing) young FO's voice at first, but he handled things very well. By the end of the video his voice is very calm and stoic. Talk about some insane on the job training. Good work to all involved.
I was about to comment more or less the same thing. He is nervous, up until the point they get visual with the runway, I’d say. We’ve done similar training in the simulator, and you do feel helpless, in IMC, with limited to none accurate navigational situation. I have to add : I’d resort to my EFB (electronic flight bag, e.g. an iPad) with moving map, in that situation. The GPS position information PLUS a keen ATC would make it much less stressful. Don’t know if these guys had access to this, probably not, from the heading they went to (southerly) after being given a 220 degrees vector from ATC. Anyhow, pilots and ATC made it work, and that’s all that matters in the end.
@@vbertrand Also him saying 73 pax, 76 flight crew makes me think this might have been a checkride for the flight crew, so extra nerves aswell on that front. All around great job by the crew and ATC
Army atc has to train emergency approaches for monthly currency. So No - gyros are easy....(not to say game like) but it does make it a fun challenge to count your turn seconds and get them bang on course haha.
@will gaukler "Standard rate" is what we fly in IMC conditions. It is 3deg/second. This is so a 180 degree turn takes 1 minute and atc can accurately get us on headings using time. We use the turn coordinator (a flight instrument that is not powered by the same system as the other gyro instruments) to accomplish a standard rate turn.
Wow! Relying on a call of 'stop turn' to get your heading... I would love to learn more about how the gyros failed. Old airplanes had magnetic compasses which while needing to be re-calibrated regularly against geographic north would be helpful in a situation like this to at least get a relative heading for each turn.
Old? How old you talking? If you are referring to the Heading Indicator on a steam gauge aircraft, it is powered by a vacuum. If you lose the vacuum then you lose your heading indicator, but you are right that you can use the standard old fashioned magnetic compass that bounces around on the dashboard area. 3 degrees per second with a standard rate turn using the electrically driven turn coordinator will give you a 360 turn in 2 minutes. One of the biggest common errors when you lose a system (vacuum) is that you dont want to admit it....and that can lead to disaster and often does if you are flying in IMC. Also dont every become so dependent on your autopilot. There will come a day when you are going to have to maneuver and HAND fly an instrument approach in IMC. if I confirm that I have instrument systems failures, the autopilot gets immediately disengaged and I hand fly using partial panel skills. Often easier said than done tho. So thats why its important to stay fresh with hand flying (without autopilot), and practice partial panel exercises frequently too.
As an IFR student pilot my CFI hammered incessantly on no-gyro flying, relying on the compass to navigate. Still remember Accelerate North, Decelerate South.
Its funny (not really) that we can fly partial panel when our CFII covers up the vacuum instruments and tells you that you just lost your vacuum, BUT what if he didnt tell us? What if they just failed, and all the while you still think they are working??? The takeaway is that we all need to train on constantly verifying that the instruments AGREE with each other. If they stop agreeing with each other, then we need to be trained to recognize that and make our own conclusion that one of the systems (vacuum or pitot static) has failed. Once we verify, then we go into partial panel mode. Our CFII wont be there in real IMC to tell us that the system has failed....someday when it really happens.... Food for thought. Fly safe..!
This is encouraging. I was almost expecting a clown show, but everyone involved handled this very professionally and, all things considered, calmly and deliberately, with clear coms - particularly the ATC team. Amidst all the news noise suggesting incompetence in commercial aviation it's comforting to see something like this. It never developed into an actual threat to safety but it could easily have gone off the tracks. Kudos to the presumably young FO - particularly nice to see newbees acting diligently and relatively calmly under the circumstances. This experience has undoubtedly given that FO some valuable first-hand experience that will likely save lives in the future.
this might be the first time ever nyc atc wished someone would talk slightly slower on the radio... great handling by everyone, glad everything worked out!
I am very impressed with all players in this event. During my IFR training in the late 70s I did several Precision no-gyro approaches into KCHS (with instructor on board). It is very reassuring to have no-gyro approaches available. While listening to this I felt myself tensing up a little. Congratulations to pilots and controllers alike.
I crashed in a sea plane taking off from Santa Catalina Island in 1979. The plane sank quickly but we all survived. In 2003 a flight landing in Mallorca, Spain couldn't slow down for some reason so we landed at something like full speed. That was interesting because you're used to how fast a plane should be going when you land. And we were going twice that speed. The applause after that plane finally stopped - and it took a while to stop - was uproarious. I don't fly much anymore.
In crew environments theres the PF and PNF, pilot flying and pilot not flying. The pilot not is the one on radios. At the end and 3:10 you can hear the older senior Capt jumping on the radio. He's the pilot/ hero.
Yeah, the PNF had a slight speech impediment, so the fact he was able to talk that fast and that clear must've taken LOADS of work on his part. Super impressed.
@@MasterCarguy44-pk2dq There are no "heroes", the Captain and First officer worked together to bring the aircraft down safely. Emergency situations aren't handled by one crew member, they're handled by all.
@@morerightrudder9742 the actual person "flying" this plane, let alone in imc near dark is "the hero" with the kool calm nerves. The approach controller would be the other hero. The PNF is just there for back up. Pls get 15,000 hrs in a 121/135 environment as a pilot and has had the unfortunate experience to live through three incidents then you can talk. CRM is only as good as the PF's experience.
Back in the day our local controllers appreciated the opportunity to practice these no gyro approaches so those of us flying for practice approaches would often put the discs on the instruments and ask for them. In this age of glass panels and gps these kinds of skills are becoming a lost art. My guess is there was a grey bearded veteran controller in the room who lent his skills to the task. Bravo to all involved in this for bringing the 73 souls home safe.
That was amazing! You can hear the stress of the 1st officer when they where 4 miles out and had no visual of the run way. Everyone was straight up bad asses.
Always thought there was a mechanical compass in the cockpit. Either way, this pilot probably dug out his boyscout compass and put it in his flight case for next time 😂
I've never actually heard a no gyro approach given. That whole thing was a pain in the butt! I've never flown the CRJ, so I'm curious what all went wrong. It sounds like they were down to backup instruments only, which would likely mean a failure of multiple systems. Not even getting the ILS makes it even weirder. Either way, top notch work by everyone.
@@Snaproll47518 If one takes off in ATT mode then switches to NAV mode it can take up to 10 min for the system to align, in the interim there would be HDG and NAV flags. In the AHRS aircraft such a switch is required when departing runway with known magnetic anomaly. Interesting how there was nothing wrong on T.O. and about the point the switch would be made they reported loss of nav and hdg.
@@buckmurdock2500 I was never around AHRS but had a lot of experience with Honeywell IRU and ADIRU platforms. It's not possible to align inertial platforms with the aircraft in motion. Selection of ATT is an abnormal procedure after loss of NAV function. Losing all three platforms, supplied by independent power supplies, at the same time is improbable. Finger trouble is more probable.
@@buckmurdock2500 Didn’t seem like they had their flight director. The manual for the RJ says that the loss of the FMC would result if you lose gyros. They would have basic pitch and roll displayed. That being said, you might be correct as I am not a commercial pilot. Still wouldn’t want to be in that position in IMC with a low ceiling.
That's how it's done. The ATC was so calm and proficient , it sounds like he could have been playing a game of bridge and sipping tea while talking them through their turns.
A few comments: -requesting any hold during navigational failures is a terrible idea and was probably more of a sim-trained reaction. Luckily departure knew what was up and gave them vectors -commenting on the ground about “not having any fires or any emergency like that” is kind of just your minds reaction to downplaying the scenario when it was in fact definitely a serious emergency. But they’re on the ground at that point so they get a pass lol -the pilot talking the most is most likely the FO / PNF. The deeper voice is most likely the CA / PF. -I believe the only instrument remaining was the mini standby attitude indicator between EICAS 1 and 2… so really good job flying off of a small standby instrument in IMC -you can definitely hear the approach controllers voice get 100% focused and precise when he transitions into no-gyro rather than just intercept vectors -Some people are commenting on the (supposed) FOs shaky voice .. Not sure if y’all realize a shaky voice can be a number of natural reactions that can happen for lots of reasons other than “being nervous”. His speech was clear and concise the entire time so I wouldn’t say he reacted nervous (although everyone was probably nervous). Some people just have shaky voices .. -This is one of those scenarios nobody trains for anymore because it just “isn’t realistically likely to happen”… fantastic work on everyone’s behalf.
They told them when they landed they didn't need any services because ATC told them earlier that the Port Authority had fire and medical on standby in these situations so they were letting them no they could stand down and it was all good. No fires or emergencies.
Best comment yet. A hold would have been a terrible idea, pretty sure the Captain would have vetoed that before long. Remove as much workload from the pilots as possible, they will be very busy, they don't need you yapping in their ear. They will let you know what they need. The 1st 2 controllers spoke way too much, this is common in the U.S. where controllers tend to speak very quickly, as if they are on the phone, then they wonder why they have so much trouble with foreign pilots trying to understand them. Don't get me wrong, they are good at what they do, but for some reason they don't recognize this... The flight crew knows you are going to ask for fuel remaining and souls on board, no need for a monologue. Ask if they can actually fly headings or will require no-gyro vectors. Assign a heading/turn and altitude. Ask if they will require vertical guidance on final, if so, determine final approach speed and recommend a vertical rate of descent that will begin at your direction, enabling them to be level at the missed approach altitude (DH/MDA) no later than 1nm final (simple math). This is an emergency surveillance approach. Vector them to be on at least a 12nm final. Final descent usually starts about 8nm final, then you talk them in every mile, advising if they are left or right of course, along with no-gyro turns as required. You also advise what their current altitude should be each mile (close is good enough). Before this 8nm final starts, you instruct them on ad-hoc missed approach instructions, and you instruct them that it is not necessary to acknowledge controller instructions on final, they just listen and follow your guidance on final (you can yap all you want at this point 🙂 ) A few more steps, but that's most of it. The flight crew were excellent here, the Captain as cool as ice, and the f/o didn't miss a thing considering his mind must have been racing! Very well done.
I have only a casual interest in aviation YT video, but the ATC in this episode would have to be the clearest I have yet heard. Likewise the crew in response.
great teamwork all round, props to the clealy young FO who kept calm and in control and to the captain for an outstanding performance pobably just using the little backup atificial horison through clouds like a boss, my hats off to everyone fantastic work!
this is probably the first time I heard of actual no-gyro vectors instructions. This makes things more clear... now I wonder how those Radar Approaches works...
There's a great old black and white movie set around the Berlin Airlift. The radar approach controllers had to talk the C-54s down the glideslope and center line beam using a 2D oscilloscope. It isn't exactly relevant to this event but, even being out of date, really shows clearly the principles of a radar vectored approach. Back then, all the way to the threshold. The fog could be so bad even taxiing required a "Follow Me" vehicle to guide them on the ground. I wish I could remember the name of that movie.
If I lost my gyro I'd be pretty sad. There is this really good joint down the street that has authentic gyros, as soon as you walk in the guy with the big gold chain necklace greets you in a heavy Greek accent and hooks you up with a big fat juicy gyro.
This channel is awesome lol just found it like last week and have watched hours and hours worth of vids. Love the detailed descriptions at the beginning, keep em comin!
I live on Long Island. Right where this guy turned around is McArthur airport in Islip. They could of landed there, but since there was no emergency I guess they didn't need to. Excellent job guiding them in!
Not really sure how this could have happened but great just by Approach to get them non-gyro vectors all the way until they were in sight of field. They don't have a ton of extra time.
Thought the same at first, but everything else in how they handled the situation led me to believe it might just be a natural tremble, rather than nerves. 🤔
They were in the clouds most of the time. If you've been in those low, cold ocean clouds the turbulence can be like driving a car on a washboard dirt road.
@@slartybarfastb3648 I hope their artificial horizon was working at least? Or does that depend on the gyro too? Recall that one of the Kennedy's that lost his bearings in clouds crashed in a dual prop plane.
I hope this will be the subject of an NSTB investigation. There must be a serious single point of failure to take out not just both gyros, but both ILS as well.
It is very unlikely but not impossible, they share the same power source. There is a reason why most passenger planes are equipped with three independent hydraulic systems. It's been just two years when an American Airlines Airbus A320 had dual hydraulic loss.
Plane was only on the ground for 5h after the incident before returning to normal service (just per the flight history for the reg), so I'm not confident that this will be investigated, though I guess it's _possible_ they downloaded the FDR/CVR data while it was being repaired, that seems like a very short turnaround for such an event if it were being investigated.
@@buckmurdock2500 Airlines are required to report immediately to the NTSB when, inter-alia, there is more than 50% loss of "primary navigation display (PND)". This incident appears to qualify. One must assume that the NTSB, at least sometimes, wants to investigate that. [Code of Federal Regulations, Title 49, § 830.5] bjn714's observations about the time the aircraft spent on the ground cast doubt on whether this all happened.
Wonder if the controller had to give a no-gyro PAR when was the last time he did that? No when was the last time the pilot had to fly a no-gyro approach. Doing a no-gyro PAR to a DA under a hood in rotors was actually fun.
Amazing that I'm 3 minutes into this and they haven't even declared pan pan yet. Those are some smooth operators, id have at least declared pan pan as soon as I lost the nav
Glad it worked out. I was confused as to the extent of the navigation failure. Was it the FMS, the FMS and VOR/ILS receivers or both plus the attitude and directional gyros? The crew was accepting vectors, were they using the whiskey compass? Without any further discussion the controller started issuing no-gyro instructions. Kudos for that. I read about no-gyro approaches back in instrument ground school and practiced one before my checkride. Don't think I ever practiced one in the USAF or the airlines. Well done all around.
I'd guess the PFD and MFD's were out so they were using that little standby instrument for attitude, altitude and speed (but not ILS or VOR), plus the wobbly wet compass which is why they accepted vectors but also were fine with no gyro instructions.
Sounds extreme and mysterious how several supposedly independent systems could all go south simultaneously. Whenever something gets too much out of the ordinary in the cockpit, I can't help but think that it's my brain that has failed, and not the onboard equipment. It would be interesting to find out what happened here.
I worked on the KC-135s in the Air Force... If the main computers for the flight management systems both failed (called the common computing modules), the pilots would lose most of their navigational systems. I only heard of that happening once in my five years of time in the AF. In this instance a power surge from the generators caused them to go offline.
Can someone compare this situation to the type of equipment an Allied bomber pilot would have had when returning to England from a night raid over Germany?
