Sometimes the correct thing to do is actually to spank a women as if she was a child if she has done wrong, altho its rare. But in present society be weary of the state.
@Wyatt Kooper I went ahead and watched this video just so that thumbnail would stop popping up as a recommended video. I'm not a complete party-pooper though. The only reason I didn't upvote you is because you had 69 upvotes. 😜
Well, he did scold the chefs but I don’t think there was much proof in improvement, unless, the chefs themselves want to improve and took Ramsay’s dagger like words to heart and uncover their meaning.
"Something changes drastically in the brain between being a child and an adult" Yup, years of being brainwashed to obey in the "education" system, were curiosity is taken to die, independence becomes dependence, complacency becomes the norm and the will of your masters becomes your own. You are taught to please, of course negative feedback is going to trigger those 15 years of Pavlovian Conditioning.
We should really ask "what are other variables we can change", to try to improve the data from experiments. What about an adult that has had different history in their childhood? I'm not sure these experiments had a control variable.
@@Anonymous-hx3pu He Just sounds like a bent-out-Of-shape guy who’s had it rough. Don’t listen to them. Education is incredibly important for development and learning.
This is the key point regardless of adult, child or animal: If the adult, child or animal doesn’t understand why their action or behaviour was wrong, punishment is not only useless but damaging. On the other hand, if they know (or should know) that the behaviour is wrong or have been reminded before and continue the behaviour, punishment is very important and absolutely neccesary. Reward is completely different. There should always be at least some type of reward for positive actions or behaviours, with the degree of reward increasing as the frequency or magnitude of positive action or behaviour increases. Lack of punishment, lack of reward, undue punishment and undue reward are all equally terrible things that can cause severe problems in the life of a human or animal. In fact, I would say that a large percentage of the social problems facing our society are caused by these 4 things, especially when they are allowed to occur during childhood but also certainly in previously well balanced adults.
THANK YOU. Punishment is not "better" than reward, and neither is the vice versa true. They're BOTH necessary tools that need to be used equally for good development and learning.
@@MastaGambit I mostly agree, but while all are beneficial and all are needed, some could play bigger roles, even if by themselves they couldnt accomplish the end goal, in this case teaching humans what is right and wrong
When you're a teenager you've started to learn a few things. Of course, the natural human reaction to that is, "Wow! I know SO MUCH stuff! I can't imagine that there is much more to know than I know now! My parents must have just forgotten everything they knew when they were teenagers... That must be why they never seem to be sure of the answer to any questions." No teenager actually *thinks* those thoughts consciously but that is the natural reaction to learning just a little bit about how the world really works. Obviously, as you mature (if you mature), you start to realize that no matter how much you know you really hardly know anything at all and even the things you are most sure of aren't really absolutely the truth and that everything deserves careful consideration before you can make a wise decision. Another horrible fact of human life is that our brains don't finish developing until we're almost _thirty years old_! Even worse: The last part to develop is the part that allows you to understand future consequences of your actions. Yes, your 'teenage' years actually last until you're almost thirty years old.
@@MyName-tb9oz Yeah, no. I always knew how little I knew and could ever know. As a child (don't know why I said that; nothing's changed) I always knew there was _way_ more to know than I ever could, and that's always saddened my desperately curious mind, but I've conseld myself that even if I can never be as knowledgeable as I would like (I want to know everything, and know I will never get anywhere near) I must at least be wise for realising that, and that it's also kind of a good thing that there is always more to learn, trying to put a positive spin on it. But yeah, I got all that from very young. This desire to never miss out on information is part of the reason I never skim-read, pause to read all the writing I can in programmes/videos/films, and go back whenever I don't hear anything (the main reason I don't go to the cinema).
@@conlon4332 I don't think that happened to me until I was in High School. It really is sad, thinking about all the things I'll never know. Not enough time anymore for the knowledge to go to any use. At least there's the internet now. At least knowing a little about something can make me feel better about it. Hey when you say "everything" does that sometimes also include relative experience in general? As in, other people's experiences and knowledge? Not just informational? I sometimes get sad about the loss of knowledge from other peoples experiences. Does that sound weird? I lost my dad not long ago and think its been affecting me in this way. But the feeling I have doesn't pertain to any person in particular. People I have no knowledge of and knowing I'll never know comes up in my thoughts. I know that part is kinda weird. None of this really bothers me but it is on my mind sometimes. Sorry, I was thinking about that last part lately and wanted to put it into words here. Have a good day.
A good takeaway from this video is that we as humans are already intrinsically motivated to improve. We don't necessarily need external pressures like rewards or punishments. They won't necessarily change the rate of improvement, especially when it comes to developing complex skills that take lots of time and energy. What they might do though, is affect morale. From my experience, rewards boost morale and motivation, whereas punishments lead to burnout and discouragement.
A bit late to the party here, but I would say both reward and punishment can have a positive effect, and is necessary for growth. However, if you are punished without really knowing why, it can work against its purpose. The same with rewards, as you may learn that you don't really need to improve or work very hard to get something good. If you are neither punished or rewarded for your behavior, I believe it can lead you on the wrong path as you are never told how you should behave because your actions doesn't lead to consequences (neither good or bad).
I found that you were often confusing negative reinforcement and punishment in your videos. To be more precise, there are four types of learning in operant conditioning: -Positive Reinforcement [adding a stimulus that will increase the chance of a desired behaviour being repeated, e.g. getting a raise (the stimulus) for doing a good job (the desired behaviour) in your work] -Negative Reinforcement [adding a stimulus that if removed will increase the chance of the desired behaviour being repeated, e.g. the state wants you to drive according to the law, so they added an annoying beeping noise to cars that is sounded when you don't buckle your seatbelt. By putting on your seatbelt, you stop the annoying beeping ( the stimulus), but at the same time you drive by the law (which is the desired behaviour)] -Positive punishment [ adding an unpleasant stimulus that will decrease the chance of an undesired behaviour to be repeated, e.g. receiving a speed ticket for driving too fast so it won't be repeated) -Negative Punishment [taking away something pleasant to decrease the chance of an undesired behaviour reoccurring, e.g. Your child misbehaved during a class in school, so you punish your child by taking away his/her tablet for a week. It is common for people to confuse negative reinforcement with punishment just like you did in 03:04-03:15 or in 05:56-06:13 However, there is a difference that separates those two. Reinforcement is to *increase* the likelihood of a desired behaviour, while punishment is to *decrease* the likelihood of an undesired behaviour... just wanted to point that out
I've found thoughty2 to not be very accurate with his videos and most often he is wrong on things here and there, he's a human being afterall and everyone makes mistakes, but the general idea of his videos kinda make sense most of the time
1990: Ok we need to teach people how to drag and drop so I made solitaire 1992: We forgot to teach them how to click first. There's chaos everyone! Release minesweeper!
Mental popcorn Windows wasn’t selling really well until afternoon 1992 and Windows 3.1 and Windows for workgroups in 1993. 1990 was early adopters and people who were using the computer at work when they had an Atari at home a lot of them already used mice and they were the type of people who would persevere at it (I know I did). You could still use short cuts and mouse keys and survive without one till windows 95 and higher screen resolutions when it sucked to go without.
The best in my opinion is a combination of positive, and negative reinforcement.... Positive reinforcement to make you feel proud of accomplishing something, and negative reinforcement to make you understand you did something wrong. The important part is not to give too much negative reinforcement, because our minds love to focus on the negatives, forgetting that we actually accomplished something. And if there is too much negative reinforcement we will end up being scared of doing something wrong, and then end up fearing doing something wrong, which will stop us from dong "hey, I wonder if this will work", and instead think "no, no, no, AAAA!". If people end up doing the latter, then people will end up being indecisive, instead of creative.
What's actually important, is to figure out the core of the issues, rather than how you react to it. Cause is always more Important than the reaction, and understanding the cause is always the way to go. Kids are smarter than one might think, and in the end it's all about showing them that you are on their side.
punishment should be done in a way to encourage people to handle something better next time. never to discourage them to try that thing ever again. most parents dont understand this
@@cherrybansx7398 ¨This also goes for general teaching. In every class I've been to, the ones where the teacher incourages people's work, while giving fair criticism, everyone work a lot harder compared to teachers who scold or have a negative and punishing attitude towards students. An easy example is when a teacher doesn't acknowledge a student's quality of work, and instead just says they're disappointed by the quantity of their work - and then go on to give them a low grade to encourage that they work harder next time. Giving a low grade to encourage harder work - from people who were already trying to work hard but just didn't manage to meet the requirements, is a failsafe way to lose the respect of your students and make sure that they don't want to put effort into the work they do for you ever again. Some people can't see the difference between criticism and negativity, you can be positively encouraging while giving criticism. Positivity always goes miles farther than negativity, when it comes to inspiring others to do better.
@@Real_MisterSir If you can manage it try to turn your thoughts into their own thats the only way to win the game I've spent years in school and i looked at every end of the spectrum heres the 5 things ive encountered the most 1: Positive verbal feedback: Its nice at the time but it burns out rather quickly and at times gave me the impression that using half measures would be enough 2: Financial aid: (from my parents and other family members for doin good work) Once again it only managed to motivate me if there was something i really needed the cash for 3: Negative feedback (scolding sometimes): All this managed to do was to force me into a defensive position where i held my ground plus it made me loose interrest in the subject 4: Punishments: By far the worst thing one can do as it forces some people into fightback mode especially if the the punishment is given out to a person who didnt have their part in it. This happened to me a few times and all it created was a battlefield where that teacher and me traded shots all day long (me beein butthurt about every comment interpreting everything as an attack and my teacher constantly giving me a few less points on my exams so i would fail them) the fighting did indeed get so bad that i couldnt be asked to put up with it anymore and i quit school 5: ''Downtalking'': I had quite a few teachers that completely ignored what i had to say and instead insisted on my parents to come and speak with them this is the one sort of person i have absolutely no respect for as it just made me feel like i was the spare tire in the trunk of the the car. I met 4 people in my life that were able to give me feedback in a constructive way that would make me feel like i should change sth. 2 of them beein teachers (in a private school) when i redid my final exams after i turned 18 they seemed interrested in my perspective and gave me the feeling of talking eye to eye failing their classes would have made me feel like a complete ass thats why i really put time and effort into their subjects. The other 2 were fellow students that helped me push through the subjects i didnt enjoy so much. Respect is a currency not a privilege that comes with a few more digits on your age counter a badge on your chest some title in front of your name or a higher position in life..... cash is only worth its weight if your willing to spend it otherwise your just the proud owner of a bunch of painted paper. Treat people as equals and hear them out thats the key to success even when dealing with people whos company you might not enjoy instantly. Btw its 3 am here so this text might be full of mistakes plot holes and missing commas so sorry for that
Negative reinforcement and punishment are different things. Negative reinforcement would be removing a negative stimulus (e.g "you don't have to do the dishes tonight.) Other than that, great video!
My wife has her best orgasms while being choked and slapped. I always worried and wondered why this is. Then I met some women who were into BDSM, and now I understand. Society teaches women that they aren't allowed to enjoy certain things. But a D/s relationship gives them permission, and so they enjoy it even more, once their inhibitions are lowered.
Praise may not cause an improvement in performance, but what it does is encourage the person not to lose the drive to continue to pursue their activity.
@@asiminapastra6067 I have discipline problems myself but here's what every single person on the planet can do - work at it. Discipline is a skill that can be cultivated over time For someone to throw their hands up and proclaim that they just can't do it are the types of people that say that they are unwilling to make the change that'll keep them doing what needs to be done irrespective of the pain of the process-they simply seem incompetent
I can't believe they took them so long to realize something so obvious. When you showed the graph it was plain obvious, just like investing. When they hit an all time low, there's a higher chance of a rebound then for it to continue dropping. And vice-versa with an all time high.
Hears the thing. From my personal experience in the US Army, during training, nothing beats home a lesson like a good chewing out. If you f up, you learn REAL quick not to make the same mistakes again. Now, yes, there will be instances where mistakes are inevitable, like when you are suffering from fatigue, but that is something out of your control.
"But when you present a middle aged man with a computer mouse who has never used one before, he looks at it like you just asked him to launch a nuclear missile with a sandwich." Lmao, why is this such a perfect description 🤣🤣🤣
Well, not anymore I think.... sice everyone middle-aged 40-50 was not born in 1970+ and, at least for the computerised west and far east, they have all had jobs or works with computers at some point. :D or take it the other way... those who we born in 1990 are 10 years from being middle aged.
@@tomasvrabec1845 I understand that. I'm pretty sure many "middle aged" people now are quite fine with a mouse. I just got a funny image in my head when he said that. Wasn't trying to be mean or anything :D
@@ashleysmith2800 if you think a moment with your middle aged brain the subject was time dependent. Edit add the other guy too. Oops too late time lapse.
This is definitive proof that I am still a child. On a serious note, all of these studies are based on specific tasks in specific circumstances. Some tasks are danger-oriented, while some are not. Some tasks have peer pressure involved while some do not. Many confounding factors are being overlooked in this simplification.
Nit pick at 2:55. In psych, when it comes to punishment and reinforcement, positive and negative only refer to addition or subtraction of something. Negative reinforcement doesn’t mean to punish, it means to reinforce a behaviour (make it more likely to happen) by taking something bad away (ie. Homework). Positive punishment, on the other hand, means to punish a behaviour (make it less likely to happen) by adding something bad (ie. Pain). Dying in minesweeper from clicking the wrong one would be negative punishment, as it takes away something good.
42's videos in a nutshell: Anything: **exists** Thoughty: "It is actually the very opposite from what you have been thinking your whole life." (PS: love ya, mustache man)
Before watching the video, having read only the title: I have seen insurmountable evidence that reward is generally better than punishment, especially when it comes to raising children. Reward is ten to a hundred times more effective than punishment. Even the argument that "maybe so, but you still need both for best effect" falls flat because, while it is generally true that they have a tandem synergy, punishment is still so ineffective to the point of often being counter-effective that commonly if not most of the time reward-only is better even than the optimal application of both. There are times when both reward and punishment works best, but I've never seen a single case where punishment alone worked best. The closest I've seen is people finding some limited success with punishment only and declaring it best out of the narrow range of strategies they had tried. Usually in these cases I could easily spot a reward path which would be successful. Most of the time I've seen peoples' reward tests fail is because what they call a reward is actually insulting to those receiving it, thus it becomes a punishment under the guise of reward, one of the most counter-effective types of punishment. - - - Coming back after watching: The video's message is that reward and punishment both don't have a strong effect, and that many of the popular sources claiming effect don't show it very well. The second part of that is true, but the first part is not very accurate. There are many cases where reward and punishment have very little effect and many other cases where they have very strong effect. Fighter pilots probably experience a much higher amount of punishment in their mind when they see themselves almost get killed for their mistakes than they do from hearing their instructor yell at them, while simultaneously good flying can be extremely rewarding, that's why these pilots are willing to risk their lives to do it, after all. I was thinking about the topic and I realized that there are plenty of cases where punishment is better than reward: specifically when the punishment comes from an external agent. We see this in many simplistic studies, as well as childrens' development, and it makes sense with our understanding of natural selection. Telling a child to not play with that animal as it may bite them has little effect or may even be counter-effective, even if you include corporal punishment. But getting bit by the animal, even a very small bite, often is extremely effective in deterring them from picking it up. Reward is most successful when it comes from role models and figures of authority, internal sources. People respond very poorly to punishment from internal sources but typically quite well from rewards from internal sources. External sources can have plenty of effect both from reward and punishment. This may have something to do with how North Korea keeps the people in line. Of course they are deprived of information and fear for their lives, but the constant claims that everything bad that happens to them comes from other nations may be reinforcing its effectiveness. This could be similar to how politicians in the first world have so much success when claiming that our problems are caused by a minority group most of these people have very little exposure to. People not only respond well to external sources of punishment, but also to internal sources of pride, and are all too eager to believe they themselves are the best and that the gradient of quality in people matches their connection to the self.
As someone who tutored, people already know when they make a mistake/performed badly and rubbing it in via scolding is a waste of time. What IS effective is reminding them via example and repetition. Example, if someone makes a math mistake screeching at them about it won't help them instead show them how to do it correctly and then have them drill on the process so that they remember in future. This is how teaching software does it's thing so well.
But then the kid thinks that everyone will be nice and take time out of their day to help "them" specially which causes problems and then in later years the child or adult thinks they are entitled to others to always help them when they fail. If you mess something up then fix it yourself, don't go and get someone else to help you.
What people seem to mistake in learning is the direction of learning and the speed of learning. Punishment and reward can majorly change the direction of learning. For example you may praise your partner for dressing really well that day, you will see that in the future they will be more likely to try and dress well. What you won't see however is a sudden major increase in their fashion sense. If they dressed like garbage before they will likely continue for a while until they slowly learn how to do better, and that takes time. What reward/punishment does is influence what you try to learn not how fast you do it.
Punishment is great for adding speed. My sister tried for weeks to teach her cat not to jump on the table. It jumped next to me ONCE, and in surprise I knocked it across the room. It never jumped on the table again, even when I wasn't there.
I'm usually interested in the subject of math and I always get good grades in it, until in the 10th grade I got much lower grades while I was doing a lot better than most of the class. That personally made me hate the math teacher but it also made me study much better and eventually become the best in the math subject from the whole class
Damn. When I was 15, classes became hard to me when I have problems at home and now at school, my mental health became worst cause both at home and school is stressing me out and driving me nuts
Thoughty2 is one of the more thoughtful performers on RU-vid. Here's a quick related anecdote. I had a janitorial job while a young college student. One night my boss totally went off the wires, criticizing me for something not my fault. None the less, my performance improved. This was not by chance nor by regression toward the mean. I was just pissed off.
Fascinating stuff. Could there perhaps be a threshold, though, so if punishment is disproportionately severe it might deter people from the activity altogether?
@@automaticninjaassaultcat3703 LOL true. Also, people in middle east who are given capital punishments for their terrorist acts, discourage terrorists from doing terrorism in their homes and move abroad to do it in nicer soft punishment vacation countries, terrorists improved much greatly in terms of sphostication by moving from poor third world to rich first world=))
Yeah such as being murdered if you fail. I don't think people are going to stick around and do better at their free will. However, could be useful in an authoritative scenario where they have no choice on the matter. Succeed or die. They'll probably do the best they could ever possibly do.
@@spaulding304 Nah , maybe in terms of mindless labour and work that requires less skill But I highly doubt murdering applied mathematicians for their lack of productivity in 17th century would've led to them all publishing stuff at the level of Principia Mathematica
This didn't really go into any depth. The way I see it is: Short term performance can improve from added effort induced by fear. In some circumstances fear can cause resentment of the instructor/teacher. Long term, reward is more productive as it encourages exploration and builds good habits, while fear focuses only on avoiding issues. Overall, studies show that a combination of both is most powerful, though when working with people (even just yourself) caution should be used with including fear, as negativity breeds negativity.
That's not entirely true, it depends on the reward and punishment offered, the frequency of each, and the ability of performer to understand not only what the reward and punishment are but how that relates to the actual performance. There's more to it, but putting it simply you could use some more research.
i agree, also the thumbnail to this video is very irrelevant... please just no... i don't know about airforce people who tend to face stressfull situations a lot and are a lot more serious. but in a more normal setting people are rarely allowed to use negative reinforcement on you without your consent and be socially acceptable, and even if it is socially acceptable that doesn't mean it's ok. also in video games, game overs aren''t all the same, in most video games you get used to it and become more brave and able to try more risky things after it happened a few times, rather than triggering the same feelings as worrying about your answer on a test in school. it is negative reinforcement if you want to classify it but in minesweep it's so inconcequential with the flash game version i like to play that it doesn't really matter. in video games in general you just get back up and try again unless you're getting frustrated. some games are more like that than others but it's nothing like getting a bad grade in school which always pushes you to study or else. i ranted for long enough already but it's also a thing that if you aren't a nice person to be around people will just go do something else without you, life is complex and there's more ways to get to rome.
This isn't true, foremost because negativity doesn't breed negativity inherently, only unjustified negative responses do so, you can test this with adults whose parents punished appropriately when they were younger, in most cases you'll find in the short term the children would resent the parents but as they grow older and wiser they come to understand more often then not that the punishment was for their benefit. Its common in more traditional regions for this behavior to consistently repeat, praise too likely assists the children come to better conclusions for the future, but sociological behavior would present that the older we get, the more we get stuck in our ways and the more arrogant we become, the more necessary negative consequences are required over positive ones. Especially since adults regularly coast on positive reinforcement that they can't do so with negative consequences. Children don't embody this and alongside likely having a bit of a harder time following negative consequences, they also aren't set in arrogance and their own ways like an adult and thus will be less likely to pick a way they made up. They are also more sympathetic and caring (generally) of others then adults (least for relevant cases) and especially to their parents. This means they are more likely to consider positive reinforcement, especially since they are continuously adapting, improving, and changing whereas adults aren't. This alongside traditions, cultural and religious standards, which also report generally that child is more susceptible to these behaviors say to disagree with positive reinforcement as a generalized justified standard. (I also can't personally think of anyone still that resents negative reinforcement because of the negative reinforcement, in every cases its because the person was overly harsh, was retarded, or was straight up wrong and was totally unjustified at the start)
Well in my own personal pov.. i prefer punishment than reward ( i mean to me not doing it to people)... Not because i am masochistic, the punishment doesn't come with pain but with pressure like you wont get paid at all.. or you have to spend your holiday to fix what you broke kinda pressure... I don't know why but as a kid always stop after got praised, never doing it seriously after a praise. i simply assume theres nothing wrong in it. Now the problem is the decline after the praise, because I didn't realize what i have performed before is not perfect and simply assume it is because i got praised, the error that wasn't came out before start to come, and would probably ruin everything. Now i always give threat to myself to finish what i do at certain time limit or i get punished, Example: I'm an aircraft mechanic (base maintenance), so everyday there this schedule of parts or aircraft that have to be finished, if I've done my part at my job and got praised by the good performance that i did based on the time limit that i put in myself, im not get punished. if i got praised but more than the time limit, i get the punishment or vice versa. If i succeed the time limit would shortened, like if I've done my job schedule for 6 days and the limit is 5 days next time the limit is 4 days. and so on until it is impossible to finish within the time limit, then i get punished so the punishment is always happen. I know it sound stupid but my best record is 52 hours but i didn't get praise because i didn't go back home for two days just to finish a small engine so i still have to take the punishment. The punishment is like i have to go to work by walking for a week even tho my workplace is 10km away from where i lived or buy everyone in my team whatever they want for dinner even tho its very expensive. Now again i know its stupid because at first my physical condition keep declining because i keep get punished, but fortunately i don't get sick that bad, just feeling sore or tired. but if i keep on winning the game, i can use the free time to keep myself healthy like go to gym, eat more food, etc Surprisingly it worked, i got paid more (bonus) because my good performance, at some point they forbid me to go to work for 2 weeks because they think I'm overworked so i went travelling to spend that two weeks, the most good thing is that now I'm a supervisor of two teams and i accomplished that just by 2 year of work. (i always thought my senior would get pissed because of this but they said they feel happy for it because if i get punished they could get more expensive dinner :D) TL;DR i use punishment to make myself pressurised so i keep doing it seriously and keep my performance up
Positive reinforcement is a relatively new concept. Maybe the young adults who were tested were themselves used to punishment from their childhood and were wired to respond to it in their older age. I would like this test to be redone with young adults who were raised solely with positive reinforcement to see if they responded the same way to neg reinforcement
As a flight instructor, I have to say that punisihing the student is the worst thing an instructor can do. The student will then shift his/her focus from flying the aircraft towards fear of being punished again. This causes the student to perform worse over time.
@@ssjduelistDD If youre implying children need to be belted, id say they wouldnt act out in the first place if raised right. So doing that is just admitting your mistakes. Parenting is hard and most cant do it lol. Belt is a bad parent crutch unfortunately.
I'm the captain now Where did you get that from? Also how are they going to know every single undesired behaviour let alone not doing it. They have to make mistakes so they can learn.
I tend to pick up the pace at a job more so when I'm threatened by my boss by some form of punishment. But I do hate the shit out of him and am currently planning to leave him high and dry when I find another job. Punishment will provide results. But as a side effect it does seem to breed resentment over time.
That's guilt vs initiative which is what many miss. You're not necessarily doing things because you want to, only because you're afraid of what will happen. Once that fear is gone you're likely to work less or just try not to get caught. Versus someone on the initiative side who does things because they want to and they feel joy from it.
This is what's fantastic about science, one study is enough to prove a point, there is no need to replicate the study and see if the evidence is consistent, let alone the exemption from controlling all the variables that, like it or not, coexist.
@3m you said that "blowing yourself up" is negative punishment. It's actually positive punishment. It's the addition of something (an explosion) and not the removal of something, which makes it positive. If a secondary win-state was possible after the explosion that removed the explosion, that would be a negative reward. You're removing something (an explosion) which makes it negative. Hope this clarified the difference between positive and negative versions of rewards and punishments.
@@DeusVult87 Your stance on positive reinforcement is irrelevant. You said "And people wonder why not spanking your kids results in more crime" which is objectively false. 0/10 bait for the rest.
This explains a lot about why some children never know the fact that they made a mistake at all most of the time. They just couldn't process it because they weren't punished, and it's more complex to assess it as a mistake than to assume it was the correct solution.
Balance is key. Tell people when they are doing well. When they do poorly do the same, tell them. Its important to make clear how someone's performance is going. If someone neglects to do something, you need to talk to them and tell them how it affects not only them l, but also the community at large. If they do well, it's important to acknowledge that for the sake of them and for the community at large. It's just about being an honest and respectful leader, and likewise as the ones learning, you must understand that your growth is based on your ability to not take praise or punishment personally.
@Nospam Spamisham I don't remember the vote where you speak for all women? :) But you're right, he is definitely underestimating what women want, I couldn't have said it better myself. Why have a little when you could have a lot?
It's basically different for children and adults, solely based on maturity. Children feel like a setback or punishment is a reflection on themselves (you've been a bad girl/boy). They don't know how or really see the point of going forward after they've made a mistake because they don't yet see the value of what they can learn from their mistakes, and they don't understand yet that their mistakes don't define them. They more or less think, "well if I'm getting it wrong then why should I keep going? What's the point?" . Adults have grown and they have a wider worldview, they are more determined to learn from their mistakes because usually their dreams or livelihoods depend on it. They also don't define themselves by their mistakes and can understand in the ways that "getting it wrong" could help them. They can take criticism and understand that it's only there to help them (or, sometimes I guess depending on how mature you are as an adult). Adults can usually identify their problems and use existing knowledge to solve or improve the situation. . Children are the opposite, they don't have the knowledge or wisdom to know how to fix their mistakes or improve. Basically, they don't feel like they know anything, so positive reward and affirmation, whilst pointing out what they could have done differently, helps them build on something they feel like they know nothing about. They are then able to grow and develop their personalities and skillsets, and as they learn more and more they start learning ways in which they can learn from their mistakes; and how there is growth in that as they mature. . In conclusion, punishment and reward yield different results as we grow because our perception of ourselves and our reaction to making mistakes, changes. It's best to recognize the way it changes as we grow from young to old.
One of the problems I had with 1st year 1st semester that had been only the carrot is their difficulty with taking negative criticism. I always lead with Positive then Point out where improvement can be done. If it's not all positive they would have disproportionate reaction to the negative criticism. They also had trouble understanding the exact points I was grading on and they would not employ the point of the assignment. Unlike public school I have to be fair to the class and grade them down because the other students did what the assignment was grading on. Their has to be negative reinforcement so they can deal with the negative appropatly and they can will learn to follow the instructions instead of doing whatever they wanted and still get a pass on a complete fail of the assignment.
Ok that's all fine, but I have a phew questions: 1 - adults are able to learn from their mistakes, because they know how to put their egos aside, unlike children. But does that mean that adults dont learn from positive reinforcement aswell?
@@gabrielgouveia554 I never said adults don't learn from positive reinforcement, there was even a scientific study was done that proved the positive mental effect with encouragement as opposed to discouragement, where adults of all genders were told to solve a puzzle in a set amount of time. Group A was solving puzzles with a guy behind them constantly saying intimidating things, "you'll fail, you won't make it, etc..." where Group B the same guy was saying positive things, "you can make it, you're almost there!" Group A went slower and got more baffled by the puzzles as opposed to Group B, who was constantly being encouraged through the process of solving the puzzles. This is a way that adults and children could be similar, in the sense that when an outside person affirms you WHILE you're doing the difficult task, you believe in yourself more and are able to complete the task to the best of your ability. Whereas when someone puts you down while you're doing the task, your self-esteem plummets, and you don't feel like you can do anything as well as you actually can. Encouragement is better than discouragement for all ages, but when it comes to test-taking and punishment, like what this video was talking about, it still sucks to get something wrong on a test as an adult but adults differ from children in the sense that they are so much more DETERMINED to fix their mistakes and improve to reach a goal of theirs, unlike kids, who don't yet have a sense of purpose and putting them down for getting something wrong wouldn't build them up in the way that they need to be built up in order to find their sense of self. With kids, your criticism needs to be more constructive, and while it's the same with adults, they can use criticism a lot better to improve themselves because they already have a character to build on. That's what I was saying in my comment.
@@dua_junaid ah... ok, thanks for answering my question with kindness, my intention was genuine but I feel I left the impression of criticism, so either way, thanks for the clarifying answer.
@@gabrielgouveia554 Haha I'm sorry if I came off as critical, in no way was your question offensive. I was just analyzing/clarifying, wasn't really worried about how I sounded- no I did not feel any criticism from your question and I'm glad you asked :) Hope it made sense!
Positive and negative reinforcement does not mean reward and punishment, respectively. It refers to adding something or taking something away, respectively. What you are referring to with the carrot and stick is positive reward and positive punishment, respectively, because you are adding a carrot or adding a beating. You could also have negative reward where you take away the carrot if they do something wrong or negative punishment where you take away the beatings if they do something right
It really boils to what makes them encouraged to do better. There's some people that really need praise and some need some punishment to encourage them to do better.
I think there might be a correlation/cause problem here... What you would have to test this properly is to test on a large sample of cross cultural subjects, preferably immensely different. What this study tells us use that Western people, born and raised in this way, have these results. A famous example of this is early childhood volumetric awareness. In the west, for decades it was thought that children developed volumetric awareness late. This was considered settled. Then a researcher tested tribal African children, who were raised making pottery, and found that children as young as 2 had more volumetric awareness than 8 year old western children. This was the test that showed two vessels, one short and fat, and one tall and narrow, or equal volume. Skills are skills, and training is training. This is all still mysterious.
I've lived a life where punishment is just gonna piss me off and drive me away, probably because I've been wrongly punished. I respond better to rewards, but I recognise the drive to work harder that comes with being threatened. I'd rather not be threatened by a person, but by life circumstances. For example; if I don't work, my family wont eat. Not if I don't work, my boss will fire me. I guess I'm a natural solo worker.
In my opinion you can count this as studying, you learn more if you choose to take in information than if you force yourself to. Either way, stay in school, or don't. Whatever floats your boat.
Rewards make desired behaviour more common and punishments make actions leading to punishment less common. Unfortunately a huge caveat to this is that when punishing people, they are likely to learn to avoid punishments through deceit rather than improved behaviour.
The only reason that adults learn better in negative responses is because adults are generally more neurotic than children, thus remember and respond much faster to negative stimulation, than to positive (roughly). Children on the other hand, often live in the present moment and dont regard consequences that much, so they dont learn, they play and they find the process fun (roughly). Ofc both adults and children respond to both negative and positive stimulation, but often more readily to one than to the other, that is why I emphasized the roughly.
Missed a golden opportunity to say that "subscribing is the kind of reward that goes a long way towards making sure more of this great content gets created".
The problem exists outside the lab and is actually an interesting problem of applicability of findings in lab settings for real live. Unless punishment and punisher (e.g. parents/bosses/teachers) can be separated, punishment creates disdain for the punishing person and reduces their effectiveness as instructor or supervisor.
Before I even watch the video: Dogs have been seen most affectionate with owners who punish and reward over BOTH punish only AND **reward only** owners. I forget who conducted the study, but relevant, regardless.
A but late but as a person who owns 10 cats I can agree with this. I get mad at them when they do wrong and just rub them when they do something right (Like say, killing a mouse or a snake). They seemed to have learned that bad stuff entails punishment and that good behaviour entails headpats and rubs. Won't stop them from pissing on stuff that smells like other cats though.
There's a lot of interesting things to talk about in this video. Trying to go for as neutral of a position as I can, I think both positive and negative reinforcement has it's place. Both can be effective. When it comes to the air force pilot instructors in Tel Aviv, I do have a little annoyance with how their 'experiences' were purely anecdotal and very prone to one's own bias. It doesn't mean that what they had to say was or wasn't valid, but personal experience is not great evidence that something is "actually" working because of that innate bias we have. So, I've often heard people say that "my experience contradicts the data". It may very well be true that an individual has had a different experience than what the data of many individuals in a less-biased study may suggest. It doesn't mean the individual experience is invalid. Granted, with an entire room of instructors stating similar idea certainly warrants a further look into the study and to try and figure out a more comprehensive way to look into this. I am curious on the flight instruction. Was the "negative reinforcement" merely telling them what they did wrong, rather than what they did right? Because even there, there's different ways to explore positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement. Telling someone they did something wrong followed with comments about ways to improve it in the future vs. commenting about how one should not make that mistake again. The whole regression towards the means idea seems reasonable, but at the same time, I don't see that as having all that much to do with positive or negative reinforcement. It has to do with just the matter of learning from one's mistakes. I don't think it's particularly controversial to suggest that one learns from their mistakes better than their successes. It seems that ultimately, that's what's actually being talked about in this video. Not positive or negative reinforcement. And the title of this video is surprisingly misleading and incorrect as a result of it.
I've found that encouraging people's natural desire to do whatever they are doing, is the way to go. If you can inspire someone to learn or change their ways out of their own self interest, then they will add more constructive criticism to themselves than any teacher ever could.
Praise too much and it becomes worthless. Punish too much and you'll become a tyrant. Though life. :/ You're right. As with most things in life, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
U know what i feel it depends from person to person Not everyone likes being punished for wrong some really need some motivation or a source of positivity That is what i feel Rest depends on You
I was in my thirties and I never gave using a mouse a second thought. I remember the first time I used it, my brother in law stood by me and I asked him what was up and he said he was surprised that I just started using the mouse with no problems. I thought he was joking!
well you probably have seen other people using a mouse before. Also you were probably kinda familiar with the concept of a GUI at the time. Both of these were new back then. I still remember first learning to use a mouse too. I got it very quickly, but it was explained it to me first. I don't know if I would have figured it out on my own or not. Probably I would have, but it would have taken a little longer. I still remember that at first I believed the mousepad had something to do with sensing the position (there are/were mice* like that, but not any mouse I ever used), so at first I didn't think to pick up the mouse and put it down again to increase the range, like we used to do back then, as for some reason the speed of the cursor was very low compared to today... maybe because the ball mouse was less precise, so setting the speed too high would have resulted being unable to properly control the cursor position. Back then, we were moving our whole forearms, nowadays it's all in the wrist. *) Or is it "mouses"? I know, the correct plural of "mouse" is "mice", but somehow I think that applies to the rodent but not to the input device.
Haha loved your last comment thoughy2! Anytime a girl cooks for me. I always give them love/praise back. They deserve it for their hard work. A former girlfriend of mine, did the opposite after I cooked her a lovely dinner on Valentines day. Her response was I don't like seafood and don't care how much money or time spent on this. Then said this is so I will sleep with you and I will anyways and laughed at me. I simply looked at her and said no you are absolutely wrong here. I cooked for you because I like you and not for any praise. I enjoyed the dinner regardless. We broke up shortly thereafter a few weeks later I think and felt great for it. I guess my praise was when we broke up haha 😄
“Do not act as if you were going to live ten thousand years. Death hangs over you. While you live, while it is in your power, be good.” - Marcus Aurelius
@@conlon4332 Vampires cannot be considered inherently evil as you can't consider as evil a wolf hunting other animals. If an immortal human being would exist, I would actually assume for him to act "the least possible" being neither good or bad. I think death gives us the chance to be good or evil, because there will be no concrete consequence of our actions after our last breath, while immortality would make every single choice shape our lives for eternity.
@@ModernVisage Most people who think someone needs to chill are doing some serious line crossing to piss someone off and get a reaction. Those people can proceed immediately towards the exit.
@@MastaSmack thats worth considering. I just know sometimes people are assholes because they dont filter or manage a healthy relationship with their feelings. At the same time some people enjoy being sardonic, snarky, or critical. Guilty, haha.
Dear editors: @0:14, there is a stock price that is going down to the left. But it should go down to the right. You can reflect the image right to left to fix this next time. Because I think you took a rising stock video and then time reversed it to go down. But a horizontal flip would have completed the job. Otherwise, you do great work. I nit pick
When I was doing my driver's license my driving was good but I would always slow down and roll on stop sign instead of fully stopping. My instructor nicely explained to me several times and I would always repeat my mistake and said "ohh sorry I forgot"... When I did it the next time he slam on the breaks on his side and gave me a hairdryer for good 60 seconds screaming at me that I need to FULLY STOP on a F****** stop sign. I was mad, I was upset, but I never after that rolled on a F****** stop sign again.
@@lifetruthseeking5808 Have you worked with kids lately? Some of them can be really disrespectful and just mean both to grown up people and other kids. I'm not saying you should punish as in hit them. Much like Thoughty2 talks about, punishing in this video is not about hitting people when they do something bad, it is to tell them it's wrong or give them a reprimand of some kind.
@@latviandragon2718 I should, if I hit them. First of all, it's a joke. Second, I'm not talking about hitting them, more about their actions having consequences. They need a reprimand sometimes that should be stronger than a "You may not do that. Now say you'r sorry."
@@zwippie92 there is a Corona virus outbreak. Last thing I would want is to scare the child but tell them to be calm and they will not get corona virus
The phrase does never suggest reward teaches "faster" than punishment, it states is BETTER because it yields better results. Wjen you learn from punishment you commonly do because of fear of being mistaken while someone that learns from reward learns from drive of being correct
What most parents don't understand is that punishment is simply that, but most parents go out of their way, and they punish their kids out of anger instead of administering a corrective measure. I learned this with my father, yeah, he used to hit me with towels and other materials that caused no real harm other than scaring the living crap out of me and when he punished me by taking away my stuff, he also had ways for me to proactively earn even more stuff out of my own effort. In the end, punish for the right reasons, not to relieve your frustrations. Parents punish their offspring in the wild all the time.
"The carrot is better than the stick" is actually quite accurate. As that phrase particularly involves loyalty and motivation. Not simply learning. People generally resent being punished, and so motivating through punishment can backfire if you should ever lose your authority over those you were trying to motivate. Rewards though get people to like you, so they will more often continue to like you and respect you even if they later are not under your direct authority.
I'd say the importance of the occasional praise isn't about improving but more about boosting morale to keep on trying and improve over time. Then again I haven't made or read any study so what do I know :D
Praise and punishment are both important. The past 20 years the failed experiment of only praise has been going on and it has destroyed an emtire generation.
The issue is that not everyone’s brain/conscience works the same way. When I was a kid, whenever I did something bad, I regretted it immediately. I didn’t need a punishment or a reprimand to know not to do it again. My own conscience was loud enough. But then I’d still be punished for it, overcompensating. I got this idea in my head that if I ever did a single thing wrong, I was a horrible, useless human being. Even now, I can’t make a mistake or take constructive criticism without hating myself for it, and that can last weeks or months or years. It’s part of the reason I’m in counseling.
All I can tell you is that I will resign from any company who punishes me as a way to "teach me" while simultaneously failing to reward me monetarily for my successes. They can call that whatever they like while they respectfully cram it up their ssses.
