For me character placement is a different story, I put them in slots where I can see their animations better for example mando I put him in the second slot so I can see it better even though I have seen it millions of times, and another example is the bad batch, I put echo in the first slot so I can see the never any doubt ability better, and put tech in the fourth slot so I can see him roll that sweet detonator down
i always put my tank in the second slot. dunno why, just always have. then my main damage dealer or second tank in 3rd. support in 4, and healer/second support in 5
@@AhnaldT101 I think I figured it out. How it works is the order works is sun fac is faster than geo soldier but they are around the same speed so I guess it's based on speed and then placement because geo is a head sun because its placement i guess because of the similar speed. I dunno its just my idea you don't need to listen to me I'm not that smart
I place in order which is easiest to assist and see. When using Phoenix team, I had zeb in fourth slot with chopper in fifth so it's was easier to click on them meanwhile having ezra in the third because I won't be clicking on him as much. So it's kind of a tall characters on the left side while shorter characters are closer to the screen.
Jolee being in the 2nd slot isn't because people want him to attack first, it's mainly because if multiple people die (except Revan) at the same time the savior unique will trigger on the character who is in the 2nd slot before the 3rd, 4th and 5th, so basically it keeps your Jolee alive to revive the others, but ofcourse if Revan also dies with them, then savior will always trigger on him because he is in the 1st slot.
This might be 2 years old, but I somehow missed this video back then and just saw it. Been blowing my mind and this bit about Savior mechanics has as well. Cheers!
To see who attacks second you could use a mass assist on a character with foresight so the first character misses and the second one gets the deathmark
In the case of the Chewies is easier to understand what's going on with the assists, you can clearly see that Og Chewie shoots faster, so he's getting the deathmark
@@AhnaldT101 I think the Threepio&Chewie in the 3rd slot while Chewbacca in the second slot means that the AI will apply Guard first, THEN the stat bonuses will apply after including to CLS. So the only difference will be who gets guard. Obviously I don't know how to test that for sure without seeing what the numbers are but I'm fairly certain it doesn't weaken the overall stats for the Rebel team.
@@delouisterlongejr.3763 yeah im almost certain thats the case. chewi checks for the weakest, applys mark then chewpo shares stats. or chewpo shares stats and then chewi checks for the weakest, so someone else will get the guard(only if someone else is weaker ofc). you could check that with their dmg just do the cls basic a few times with chewpo in second place and a few times with him in third place you should see the same amount of dmg dealt
The easiest way to see animations speeds is to see when they return to their original spots. Notice how Sun Fac and Geo Soldier's animation has them standing and shooting with the same exact animation (resulting in a tie). With Jolee, it's super easy to see he's first to return to his home position. You can also use this to see who goes second, third, etc. Just look at the order in which they return to their home position
I've wondered how this impacts FO lineups with the Hux mass assist and KRU's tenacity down and I couldn't find anything more insightful than Bulldog's video. Thanks for the testing that I'm not able to do on my account yet, GA!! (PS hitting level 85 today)
THANK YOU so much for this amazing video Grand Admiral!!! So Happy the community might finally figure out exactly wtf is going on with all this!! In regards to CLS: It might be a slight misnomer to say it makes your CLS team "STRONGER" by moving Chewpio. I don't think CLS just suddenly loses the bonuses from Chewpio if you move him later in the lineup. It just changes the order of determination as to who is weakest FIRST, establish the guard, and THEN the bonuses are still applied. If anything, moving the guard to Embo (or anyone else) might hypothetically make your team weaker, as you might likely want to guard CLS over others, given the choice. But CLS should still get all the bonuses from Chewpio either way, he would just get them AFTER Chewie establishes the guard first, if you swap spots. But simply knowing that you can manipulate who gets the guard at all, just by moving Chewpio around, is massive!! The implications of that are wide reaching indeed! Really appreciate all this great information and testing on this subject!!
@@jgadventures4161 mine are just under 86 and I have beat it the last 3 months. We used the theory that they assist in the order you place them, so what Ahnald found doesn’t change anything bc we had Sun Fac above Soldier already.
I’ve been trying to tell my guild that this was an actual thing with certain teams and they didn’t believe me! I know they almost all watch you now after I put your videos in the discord!!!!!
Also about the Fives sacrifice thing, the reason why you want him to be in the 5th slot is because if multiple 501st clones die at the same time, and if he all clones are placed in front of him, then the game will count his death as last, therefore he will sacrifice and give his stats to all the clones who were placed in front of him. If any 501st clone is placed behind Fives and they die the same time as Fives, then Fives's death will count before the clone that was placed after him in the slot position, in other words Fives will not sacrifce himself for that clone, which means the rest of the clones will not get any stat bonuses.
Ahnald, I think the 'tie' is broken by the distance they have to cover - in the fives/echo example, assuming both characters have equal animation speeds, you can see that fives was closer to the target in the first instance, and echo was closer to the target in the second instance - and that corresponds to the deathmark. This also corresponds with the chewie example. Maybe try targeting RHF instead. that's why I always put soldier and fac in the top row in geo TB, and poggle in the bottom row, just to ensure that everything WAI
this is exactly it, I've tested when they have 6 on the other side so it's clearer, if you go for far left or far right character you can get different results.
I just found out that for geonosians, when you call an assist with poggle first, if you call spy or brood the first character to go won’t change (based on placement), but if you call in sun fac or soldier to assist, the one you call in to assist will be the one who gets the death mark, regardless of placement.
You are always great ahnald but havent been watching your videos for awhile because of all the disney content in this game lately... i enjoyed and was quite interested in this video tho, good work!
I’ve always had a suspicion that it’s attack animation time. Looks like whoever’s attack hits the enemy first gets the deathmark. So by putting Sun Fac or Geo Soldier in the back it makes their attack take longer to hit the enemy
So, I'm going to throw this out there: It's likely not "animation speed" so much as it is "hit frame" - Games handle attacks via 2 separate mechanics, the attack animation, and the attack frames. This is most widely known from stuff like Fighting Games, where frame data is very widely known and analyzed. This is why in many games there's parts of attacks that do zero damage despite looking like they should, or parts of attacks that deal damage despite nothing actually occurring that should. This is because "hit frames", "attack frames", whatever you want to call them, are often NOT the same as the animation frames. For swgoh, this would likely be a very specific frame set on each attack that's augmented by distance, that would "trigger" the effects of the attack. This leaves 2 questions though. WHEN does this trigger - Is it an arbitrary straight line, so distance from character to character doesn't matter and you're basically looking at a specific pixel, or does character to character distance matter and targeting someone on the left or right could theoretically change attack order? and WHEN in each animation does the "attack" trigger? These are both relatively simple to analyze using frame by frame analysis, albeit it would take a while to make a useful compendium. IF someone is going to test this, test the first one first. It's MUCH easier, as it exclusively can be done with one character - Do basically this same test, but target each different enemy and do a frame analysis to determine if the frames for multiple attacks and/or characters are largely identical regardless of target - Preferably using a character that's already on a flank - For example "does vader's saber throw always trigger on the same frame regardless of which character I'm targeting, and what's the difference in frames depending on vader's position if so." Then, I would follow up said testing with mass assist testing frame analysis in order to try and get a decent sample size of how individual attack's damage numbers popping up compare with getting deathmark/etc. - To help make sure there's no wonky behind-the-scenes stuff that makes analyzing the frame data harder/nigh impossible without tools. And then lastly would take the findings from all of those to just go through every single character in the game and figure out the frame data for them. Which could then be thrown into an actually useful "tool" to optimize team placement for any set of characters in the game. Alternatively, this is "probably" something that's also able to be datamined, but honestly I'd figure we would've had the info by now if it was that simple.
to sum up, for mas assists, I think this is happening. Which character attack first is based on animation speed, but when two characters have the same animation( sunfac, geo soldier), suddenly who ever's placed in front will attack first. Except for geo soldier and sunfac, all the other geos have melee basics, which means animation speed are generally slower compared to a flying projectile. That's why no matter where you but either sunfac or geo soldier they will always get deathmark before the other three.
It seems like slot placement determines which character starts their attack animation first, but the first to deal damage is actually determined by when their attack hits the enemy. Sun Fac and Geo Soldier have a similar attack animation (like you said), but it isn't quite a tie because the attack animation for whichever one is placed first is started slightly earlier. It's quite a weird workaround that attacks are triggered based on contact/finishing attack animation rather than when it starts and having a definitive ordering, but oh well.
Clones seem to be the most inconsistent team to try and predict. Ran 501st with Shak, Rex, Arc, Fives, and Echo in that order. Whoever got the deathmark seemed to be determined by who I fed the turn meter to at first. If I fed the turn to rex with the swarm he got deathmarked, if I fed it to echo then echo got deathmarked. So I tried feeding the turn to arc and it got inconsistent. I targeted R2 every time and fed the turn meter to arc every time, and the death mark kept going on either rex or echo, but it was random. Sometimes Rex got it, sometimes echo got it, always fed turn to arc and always targeted R2. Clones don't play by the rules.
For the Chewie/Chewpio thing, I don't think it actually affects the overall strength of the team. It's just that with Chewbacca in the 2nd slot, his unique activates before Chewpio gives stats to CLS, so CLS is the weakest character at the moment of activation. However, I'm pretty sure he still gets the same stats afterwards when Chewpio's unique activates, making Embo the new weakest character, but Chewie's unique had already activated, giving CLS guard. So really, I think the only time this would matter is if you're using Chewie and Chewpio on a team that isn't a full rebel team and you want guard on the weakest rebel instead.
I know this would be very tedious, but might be able to get some more info. If you use this challenge battle as a control, bring in the leader/character that calls MA. and do a couple of tries with the leader and 1 alternating character of the team. Record the average damage the basic does, and keep alternating until you have the numbers down. Bring in the full team, call the MA, and freeze frames until you see the numbers appear in the order they are dealt.(As i write this i am not even sure the damage numbers position correlates to at what time the hit lands or not, but hey... What else is the Admiral for, if not ultimate science.) This might be a bit hard, but as i see it, if you have the challenge battle as a control, armor/damage taken and so on, should stay the same, and the numbers you get should be replicable within the small damage variance basics has. Cheers for the video, love the content you've brought over all these years. It has been an absolute pleasure watching the prod value go from a guy in a SW t-shirt with a mic, to polygons capable of melting your mind!
For the character attacking first it's the animation. Poggle and spy have longer animations because they have to run to the target before they apply damage compared to soldier or fac that just shoot
It's even worse when you learn that different abilities have different effect speeds. For example, Grevious' basic is faster than his last special. You can see this with B1 and him together, where B1's basic will hit first if you use the special, but Grevious will hit first if you use the basic. Very helpful for gaining Separatist Loyalty or whatever its called in DS Geo TB. Edit: I clearly typed this without watching the video first.
Under your note about the faster animations, I actually noticed that myself when I was using a mass assist with the Bad Batch and Hunter hit last, which was the opposite of what I wanted. (Expose) It made me wonder about the whole assist speed thing, but I figured you might find this interesting
The code is applying Deathmark to the ally that first makes contact with an enemy hitbox. You can verify that clearly @17:35 with the wookies. So what we can get out of this testing is that you're right about attack animation being semi-important for who goes first in the lineup BUT in terms of unique activation, everything is slot dependant.
In order for animation speed to matter - then it matters when the target character is HIT by the attacks. So a possible explanation for the wonky behavior with Shaak Ti is that there is this whole extra variable that hasn’t been considered - which enemy is being targeted and the distance between that enemy and each of your own characters, not just their slots
I think what matters is the speed, if Sun fac and soldier both have the same speed the one you place first will go first, but maybe if you have a poggle with more speed than the rest he will go first
That moment where you can’t tell if this is an elaborate “who’s on first?” Story. Jk it’s a very informative video as always Ahnald, as well as being entertaining to watch.
If it's like in DSA, the distance between attacker and target is importend, too. Speed of animation hitting the target can be different from one position or another. That could explain the Fives and Echo thing. If you not target Poe, but instead someone closer to Fives, he should gain deathmark again.
It could have something to do with Travel Time. Melee units need to close the distance to the opponent before their damage is counted, and ranged units need their projectile to hit their opponent before it is counted. Therefore, each unit theoretically has three different stages to their attack animation: 1: Pre-attack 2: *Travel Time* 3: Dealing damage The second stage is the one that's being affected by the placement, and is causing different Geonosians to apply damage at different times. If this is true, units with very close animation speeds (like Sun Fac and GeoSol) could be applying their damage faster to characters that are physically closer to them, leaving units at the back of the pack to apply last.
I always throw Bastila Shan in the second slot for my JKR team. Once it's here, hit GMY with buffs and then he spread them around, usually kicks back over to JKR and a Mass Assist is done with a buffed team (ha pun).
You can figure out who's attacking second, third, etc. by running undersized squads! For instance, if you remove Cassian from mothma, you'll get to see who attacks immediately after him in the lineup
16:55 I would like to clarify that the stat difference showcased is only relevant for the very start of the battle when the uniques are still being activated, the stats become boosted to the same point in either team placement. I expect a similar effect would occur with R2’s unique. Also, it’s worth noting that in an all Rebel team this probably won’t change who becomes Guarded.
One way I can think of to test the damage first thing is cara Dune and Sunny D attacking at the same time. Cara has a longer attack animation for sure, however I can imagine it being hard to get them to both assist at the same time while being the first to attack
Placement is key for me since day one. This has been the difference between winning arena battles, lightside and Darkside nodes, events, etc. It has been the difference between no surviving units and full units.
With Echo and Fives, it seems to suggest that it's both animation speed, but also physical placement on the game map. I guess the fifth slot, despite being called on last during a mass assist, is closer than the 4th slot physically in the 3D environment. Attacks only actually proc when they hit their target afterall.
I always wondered this myself because in my Rebel squad, Legendary Chewbacca attacks WAY faster than Chewpio. So i have Chewie up front to inflict Tenacity down first which will make Chewpio's evasion down debuff easier to land.
In clone trooper example, Fives in first try is closer to the Poe, than Echo, that why he gets deathmark. BUT(I tested it right now) if you choose Finn, !!!Deathmark will be applied to the Echo! As I understand, Echo and Fives have very close animation speed, but with different placement you increase range between Fives and Poe, increasing animation speed between them, and decrease range between Echo and Poe, decreasing animation speed between them.
Actually in a cls team, if chewie is 2nd he will give guard to the weakest ally then 3pio 3rd will share stats. With normal modding chewie 2nd and 3pio 3rd could give 3pio guard and 3pio 2nd and chewie 3rd guarantees cls guard. It’s not making you rebels weaker… Also jolee 2nd in jkr is there in case him and someone else get killed and trigger savior he will get revived, won’t matter most of the time. And if you want to know the rest of turn order just run indersized squad while removing first attacker
This will probably get lost in the comments but what if you’re right about the tied animations goes to the first character in the line up and on top of that it also matters who you target on the enemy team.
haven't finished watching yet but came here to say that animation speed + distance to character is what determines who hits first. in geos it will always be sun fac or soldier first as they have guns edit to also say, kenobis unique in second slot makes him taunt a lot more
now I've seen it all I'll add, what ahnald did with chewpio, it works with a full rebel team too. so if you've got a weak chewpio and put him before chewie you'll get guard on cls, if you do it the other way then you'll get guard on chewpio (r2 number crunch is also something to factor in)
I think attack order relies on when the attack animation contacts the enemie units. When sun fac is in the front row his projectile is faster than soldiers. But when soldier is in the front and sun fac is in the back the solder shot lands first.
For the unique order I don't think that your team is weaker if Chewacca goes first it's probably because Luke has less stats than Embo before the Chewpio boost so he gets guarded and then gets the Chewpio boost. So it's likely he has more stats than Embo but still keeps the guard since it was applied before the stat boost
I'm not sure anymore because I just tested it out with a different setup: my Vader has more health and protection than my Palpatine, but When Palpatine's unique activates My Palpatine ends up with more stats. It seems that even if my put Palpatine in the third slot which could mean guard activates before Palp unique Vader still ends up getting the guard
After the video, I tested it out myself and I think it might have something to do with character hitboxes. What I mean is: The character that hits the enemy first with their hitbox, will apply damage and effects,... first. I tested this out on my Padme team. At first, I placed them how I always have: Ahsoka second, Ani third, rest doesnt really matter. Then I opened with Padmes stun on Rey (Rey evades bc of foresight so Padme doesnt get deathmark). I found that its actually random on who gets the deathmark and that might have to do with lag (tested it on smartphone, I think on emulator you might get the same result every time bc it doesnt lag as much, not sure tho). What I did next was putting Ahsoka in the lead and Ani in the last spot as he would have the maximum distance from Rey. There I found that Ahsoka got deathmark 100% of the time, which would agree with my theory. Now its only a theory, one would need to test this with more teams if possible and also I have no clue how the unique stuff works, but its a first step.
So with clones, no matter what placement I have them in if echo and 555s are in the same row, my echo gets death mark. If they're in the front row together, echo gets death mark. The only thing that makes a difference for me is if Echo is in the back row and Fives is front row, then Fives gets death mark. So it looks like the way it's works is: processing power of mobile device>distance to opponents=attack speed animation>general placement in squad.
