My Episcopal parish, Calvary-St. George’s, in NYC explicitly proclaims the Law-Gospel distinction in its mission statement and preaching. Glad to have Phil speak there a couple years ago.
I was introduced to Dr. Carys work in my Lutheran confirmation class. His work on St. Augustine and classical Protestantism is unmatched. Looking forward to this!
I just want to put in a quick plug for Dr. Cary's course on the History of Christian Theology available through the Great Courses website. I really, really enjoyed it (and, fwiw, I'm a Catholic and think he does a great job being evenhanded). Also really enjoyed this discussion, particularly his points at the end about the need for liturgy. When he mentioned the Gospel message and our response to "Oh come all ye faithful," I shouted, "YES!"
I love Protestants and their love for the Bible and Christ. Also their passion for talking about our Lord. What I don’t like is them going to Catholic Churches and telling people that they are going to hell. I really do hate that aspect of Protestantism.
I’m confessional Lutheran but went to a Dominican college. It was a great experience and I met some of the most wonderful Roman Catholic Christians. Most Protestants in my circles view Catholics and Orthodox as Christians without hesitation. My son is American Coptic and we often have great conversations about church life, the gospel etc…We don’t hide our differences and we celebrate the unity we do have in Christ. I know there are Protestants that dismiss RCs and Orthodox and it’s just stupid. Most of the time they are speaking in ignorance.
@@Athabrose Agreed. There is more than enough of that coming from the Orthodox & Catholic end, too. Literally no one's hands are clean. Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy on us all
your guest is correct, We are saved by the finished work of Christ on the Cross. Not by works. Works is evidence of being saved. Works comes after a changed heart.
According to a 2015 Pew Research article there are "more that six former Catholics for every convert to Catholicism." For Evangelicals there is "1 person leaving for every 1.2 joining.
This is a dynamic that is definitely not reflected well in online conversations. I expect that's because former Catholics tend to be less passionate about being former Catholic (and thus publishing content) than converts are about becoming Catholic (and thus making a lot of content). To me, this is yet another example of how RU-vid doesn't always reflect reality on the ground, for all traditions
Austin,your love and devotion to the Creator YHWH just oozes ftom you. I wished I had a son like you. You have an amazing "Kavanos"which is a Hebrew word for ones complete feeling and sincerity for G-d. I can't think of a better way to describe it.
Amazing interview! I would like to add that I think the idea that St Thomas and St Augustine had about the “aha!” moment of the beatific vision is pointed at in the Bible. St Paul in 1 Corinthians 13:12: “ For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.” I might be missing something, but I was reminded of this verse during the conversation.
Hi, i m orthodox christian and i know this video isnt about orthodoxy, but i think it would be interesting for you to look up about how government of montenegro (country in europe) last year tried to take all churches, monasterys and land away from serbian orthodox church and how that unite people of montenegro and how they defended church
The Gospel delivers Christ to us through the Means of Grace (word and sacrament) --> Through this delivery, by the power of the Holy Spirit, we are united and incorporated into Christ by faith --> The main benefit of incorporation into Christ is that we are identified with Christ and thus all that is true of him by nature becomes true of us by grace (the legal/forensic declaration of righteousness that was placed on Him at His resurrection) --> Our justification (and resurrection) is thus a participation in Christ's justification (and resurrection) --> As we are incorporated into Christ (by faith) for the sake of our Justification / Salvation, Christ is likewise incorporated into us (by faith) for the sake of our Sanctification / Renewal. That is classic Protestant theology. Simultaneously forensic/legal and participationist/ontological.
A very thoughtful man.. I appreciate his point of view. But I think that a "decision " is still actually "doing " somthing...ie a "work" to use bible terminology. Therefore the promises of christ are conditioned apon our continued participation in that legal agreement...not just a one way covenant, its a two way relationship, just like a marriage. Thats my opinion anyway. But I like his work as it generates contemplation on the most important thing we will ever do! Become believers of christ, the only garenteed path to heaven. Peace be with you 🙏
Two way huh? Don't tell Hosea that. Matter of fact, don't tell Jesus that. What did we contribute to the marriage besides sinning to the point he got nailed to a cross for us? What does he contribute but patience, love, his own agony and blood, always listening to our arrogant prayers without judging? If this marriage is a two way thing, he should have divorced us a long time ago, cause we are not keeping up our end. No. In this marriage he gets all our debts, liabilities, bad reputation, and dreadful enemies. We get all his wealth, credit, perfect reputation, and magnificent friends.
Phillip Cary! Phillip Cary! Shameless fanboy here! I'd have left off any kind of Lutheran thinking a decade ago if not for you! Did anybody ever address your question about the Formula of Concord in Concordia Quarterly?
I have a question about the musical metaphor. There are three levels by which I come to know music: theory, listening, and practice. Of all these, the only one necessary for me to truly know music, as in my mind containing its Form or gestalt, is hearing. If a person were to never listen to a song and only learn deeply about all the theory there is to know, they could perhaps explain music very well, but they wouldn't know it. If they were to practice without ever hearing at first, that would prove impossible since they can't reproduce something they don't know. Therefore, listening is at the core of music. Still, in a practical manner, theory is essential to improve both listening and practicing skills, and playing, singing or practicing music is the way through which we manifest or knowledge of it, bringing it's form into actuality in the world we live in. Could we say the same for the gospel? Theology, like music theory, can tune our ear to better listen to what God tells us. Good works and rituals such as prayer are the ways we express our knowledge of God to others and to him respectively. Listening attentively to the Word of God remains the core, but isn't the lack of theology or liturgy in many modern Protestant churches similar to a music school that would teach without theory or practicing scales?
Union of the Body of Christ would be wonderful but the devil is in the details. whether it’s Filioque between the Orthodox and Catholics or the spectrum of Protestant disagreements with everyone, seeking unity will ultimately only be found in Christ. Theosis, or deification, is a transformative process whose aim is likeness to or union with God. Sanctification is the proses of being made holy. A Christians holiness is based on them being transformed into the image of Christ. Mystical union with Christ is a Holy Spirit powers participation with Christ and there by with the God head Each one of these has to do with the believers connection and transforms into the God head in an ontological union with Christ.
I always thought the similarities between sanctification/glorification and theosis was worth being discussed more. Great comment though, if we all declare our allegiance to the Lord of Lords then we will naturally be aligned. One way I think of inter-faith discussions is like this: If a police department refuses to help the FBI in an investigation (because they want the credit for solving it for example) can it really be said that the police swore allegiance to the country? Or did they swear allegiance to just their department and their own well being? If both the police and the fbi truly wish to do what’s best for the country, surely they’d work together on a case.
The answer to Austin’s last question hits the nail on the head with the problem of Protestantism. One could have any number of Protestant churches on a street and get a completely different gospel each time. He had no real answer to the “so where do I go?” question. That is what I love about Orthodoxy, no matter how dynamic or how much of an (expletive) the priest is, he is still going to give you Christ on Sunday and the building, the icons and the whole set up facilitates.
@@ronaldfelix1000 You both missed the point entire, haha. All Protestants aren't the same, that's the problem. All Orthodox ARE the same in that the liturgy gives you the same thing each time regardless of differences in the priest or language.
You dont have to do anything to be justified ? What about James ,,You see then that a man is justified by works, and NOT BY FAITH only.'' Faith without deed is dead'' ,,4 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. And Gospel doesnt say what we should do? But only say what Jesus does? Doesn't Jesus say feed the hungry , clothe the naked? Gospel say what we should do .It's not only what Jesus does but also what we should do. In James gospel :,, But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without [a]your works, and I will show you my faith by [b]my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe-and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is [c]dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made [d]perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was [e]accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only
This may be helpful…… Faith is not what some people think it is. Their human dream is a delusion. Because they observe that faith is not followed by good works or a better life, they fall into error, even though they speak and hear much about faith. “Faith is not enough,” they say, “You must do good works, you must be pious to be saved.” They think that, when you hear the gospel, you start working, creating by your own strength a thankful heart which says, “I believe.” That is what they think true faith is. But, because this is a human idea, a dream, the heart never learns anything from it, so it does nothing and reform doesn’t come from this `faith,’ either. Instead, faith is God’s work in us, that changes us and gives new birth from God. (John 1:13). It kills the Old Adam and makes us completely different people. It changes our hearts, our spirits, our thoughts and all our powers. It brings the Holy Spirit with it. Yes, it is a living, creative, active and powerful thing, this faith. Faith cannot help doing good works constantly. It doesn’t stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an unbeliever. He stumbles around and looks for faith and good works, even though he does not know what faith or good works are. Yet he gossips and chatters about faith and good works with many words. Faith is a living, bold trust in God’s grace, so certain of God’s favor that it would risk death a thousand times trusting in it. Such confidence and knowledge of God’s grace makes you happy, joyful and bold in your relationship to God and all creatures. The Holy Spirit makes this happen through faith. Because of it, you freely, willingly and joyfully do good to everyone, serve everyone, suffer all kinds of things, love and praise the God who has shown you such grace. Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire! Therefore, watch out for your own false ideas and guard against good-for-nothing gossips, who think they’re smart enough to define faith and works, but really are the greatest of fools. Ask God to work faith in you, or you will remain forever without faith, no matter what you wish, say or can do. An excerpt from “An Introduction to St. Paul’s Letter to the Romans,” Luther’s German Bible of 1522 by Martin Luther, 1483-1546
So, how then do you square James with Paul? As in Ephesians: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." Or in Titus: "But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.” And again in Galatians: "For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith. But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us-for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”- so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith. And finally in Romans: "for by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law." So then, if Paul repeatedly says that justification is not by works but by faith and he says that to Christian in Rome, Christians in Ephesus, Christians in Galatia, and to one of his most trusted associates, Titus, then maybe James is not talking about the same justification as Paul, or he's making clear that you've been saved by grace and you should probably start acting like it, just as Abraham did who believed, i.e. he had faith, in God and it was counted to him as righteousness, i.e. he was justified; in other words Abraham was justified by faith through the grace of God. Moreover, we can also straight to what Jesus says about doing the works of God in John 6:29 - Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”
h@@pete3397 You don't know what you are talking about, you think you know better than 2000 years old church , thank you for your answer. God bless you , and I finish this conversation with you .
As a Catholic, my main problem w/ the Protestant faith is interpretation of the Gospel. Instead of hearing and believing the Gospel as stated (i.e. the Last Supper, Mary as an important intercessor, and Peter as Jesus' vicar, and successor via handing over the keys to His Church etc.). It also seems the Old Testament & Letters are "used" by protestants to twist doctrine according to an agenda. As in: Faith over works for salvation.... when the two are clearly bound in scripture. IMO Protestants leave their Faith for Catholicism because they realize; you can't separate or reinvent scripture. It needs to be accepted as written. Amen
I’m Lutheran, but I do appreciate evangelical teachers who stick to and teach and preach the Bible. I liked this video overall, but I was a bit disappointed in his lack of appreciation for non-Liturgical churches and what they bring to the table, so to speak. At least, that’s the impression I got. The only thing he could say is, you’re at the mercy of the preacher outside a liturgical church, so it might be best to avoid them. Well, sometimes in liturgical churches you’re at the mercy of dead formalism and lukewarm laity who have forgotten their first love.
Lots of lukewarm non-liturgical Protestants out there. Liturgy doesn’t necessarily lead to dead formalism. It isn’t the structure that’s deadening, it’s the people and their hardened, cold hearts which is the cause of the lack of vitality.
@@mamafortuin That's true. But even die-hards like Pr. Will Weedon are trying to promote better usage of the liturgy. He demonstrates that the way we do it now is just less fun than the way it was done in earlier centuries.
@@Mygoalwogel “fun”? I would hardly characterize the Divine Liturgy as fun. Reverent, solemn, majestic, holy, and certainly joyful. However, “fun” connotes the modern ethos’ focus on shallow frivolity that isn’t appropriate in the worship of the Creator of the universe.
@@mamafortuin I'm dead serious. You know those hymns with like a dozen verses? The whole congregation might sing v1, then the men might sing v2, the women v3, a children's choir v4, etc. A great example that's survived is Praetorius' Quempas arrangement. There were no pews. They'd bring blankets and stand, sit, kneel, oblate. Kids could walk around and look at the stained glass windows, statuettes, icons all while singing the liturgy from memory. Listen to Pr. Weedon's conference on RU-vid. He's no liberal.
"In a divided Christendom, we all (Protestants, Romanists, Easterns) need each other and have things the others need." I love that. That is the reason for the ecumenical movement in a simple phrase. Truly beautiful. It's similar to the question of which denomination is the undivided Catholic Church... and the answer is (by definition) none.. at least not without the others... because without the _whole_ being _united_ , we lack catholicity and oneness -- balance and correctives. "Moreover, in the Catholic Church itself, all possible care must be taken, that we hold that faith which has been believed everywhere, always, *by all* ." ~~ St. Vincent of Lerins
Nice guest and a pleasant exposition from beginning to end! Not 100% in agreement - for one example, I would give a very different description of Augustinian and Thomist concepts of beatific vision - but Dr Cary exposed his views in a very balanced way.
To say, "Justification is not central, Christ is" seems to me to be a false and unnecessary dichotomy. To talk of Justification is to talk of what Christ does.
It really isn't though it's just the medicine. It's about what he wants us to become with the fullness of her what the fullness of our humanity can be.
Jesus sayd love God with all your heart And love your neighbour like yourself . How can it be misunderstood ? Humans are like children and not ment to intellectualize about why and how, the only result is conflict. We are not whole , but rather half ... Jesus was not an ordinary "human" but son of God. He came from above, we come from below . If you believe in Moses, you also believe in Jesus , for Moses write about him .
@@mming_my Correct, Christ’s United body on earth is is found in his people partaking of the one cup, which is his body and blood. It’s not a coincidence that he self identifies with his church, calling them his body, while also showing the Eucharist to be his body.
@@mming_my They are cut off from the continuous Eucharistic community, which is defined by the worship and episcopate of the original, authentic church.
It was interesting hearing him talk about the animals and how they don't posses the "intellect" as humans do. As an Orthodox Christian, I would like to point out that the Greek word that we use for this concept is "nous" we believe that we are body, soul and nous. A sort of trinity that constitutes a person emblematic of the way God is a trinity. I do think it is good that Protestants have such a zeal for reading scripture, however there is no reason you can't have this and be Orthodox. In fact, you should be studying scripture continuously if you are Orthodox. Many of our greatest saints said as much. It's just that many people don't see it as important (wrongly) as Protestants do.
What do you suppose causes an inattention to Scripture by the Orthodox. To be honest, I thought that was a weak point from Cary; i.e., that the Protestant contribution is reading the Bible. I don't say it isn't true, necessarily, but if that's it, the problem is easily remedied. Which is to say, become Orthodox or a Papist and read your Bible more. That really isn't the Protestant contribution. Or, at least as a Lutheran, I wouldn't say that it is.
@@marcuswilliams7448 I think it's the same cause as many of the other spiritual sicknesses we have in this day and age. Namely distraction. We are too busy and proud to be bothered with God in our modern world. We only seek God when we feel we need something from him and yet can't realize that he in fact gives us everything that we already possess. I am curious as to what you consider to be the great protestant contribution to Christianity.
Always dancing around the authority- stripped out of the temple mount by Jesus- and given to the Apostles, who lead The Church. Priests were always part of Christianity. Paul points out the many Priests who believe in Jesus. ...he never said they were no longer priest. And often enough, we see the Apostles worshipping at the temple mount AFTER the Resurection. Protestantism is not The Church as established by Jesus. There were no bibles in the first few years. And there was ONLY Judaism until 92 A.D. So why reject the Orthodox Church? Why not accept the sacrements of Jesus as given? Because the authority given to the Apostles was gi en by Jesus himself. If you lnow Jesus exists. Why turn away from what he gave? Building a new church you can understand is a purely reactionary position to the heresy of the Roman Pontiff. ...even your transactional atonement model is roman...so how far away did you really get?
He specifically asked the Confessional Lutherans a very necessary question about the Formula. Nobody has attempted an answer. If Dr. Cary lived in Taiwan, I'd go to his church and feel no guilt about it.
@@Mygoalwogel it's a bit strange to just make a refence to some great question without saying anything about the content of it or back it up. What am I supposed to say to that :) what was the question? And don't get me wrong I think he is a great theologian and I'd love to read this new book of his
@@tuomassalo6102 I see. Sorry. I wasn't picking an argument, though I like sparring as much as the next person. I'm a Confessional Lutheran, myself. I was merely responding to your OP. Becoming a Confessional Lutheran is problematic for some, and Carey has better reasons not to than most.
Good show. Lots of Augustine which is hardly ever referenced in Orthodoxy but heavy in the West to the point that you might think the East didn’t exist. What you said though was a move away from rational theology where everything you want to know about God is fully explained. “I have ALL the answers and can tell you how God operates in detail.” Instead, you came access sounding more ‘Orthodox’ almost used the word ‘Mystery’! (We Orthodox love that word) You are correct.. Christ says “This Is My Body?” and that’s good enough for me! A little known fact FYI is that Orthodox do not have wedding vows! None!! The wedding sacrament is God joining a man and woman to be one. A song sung at the end of the wedding (the song of the martyrs), makes the strong point that the couple are to live sacrifically for the good of the other.
Lutheran sacramental theology dwells heavily on the notion of Mystery. One of the primary critiques against Rome's insistence on transubstantiation is that it is precisely the application of human reason to a mystery of God. It's an attempt to rationalize and explain something that cannot be and does not need to be explained. It simply is. I'll add further on my first statement: not only is Lutheran sacramental theology focused on mystery in the Eucharist, but our Eucharistic theology is taken almost entirely from the Cappadocians.
DL Moody would not be happy about what you are doing. “ preach the gospel to all the world “ don’t promote other gospels… Paul said whoever comes to you with a different gospel RUN!
@@GospelSimplicity please please please look into this with decernment and the Bible ( word of God) . I have been struggling 40 years with my Catholic , some are saved) family / brothers but most act as the world … don’t know the Bible at all. They feel all they need is the mass. You have a sweet spirit and I love your person but please watch Netflix Vatican documentary… it’s horrid what goes on there brother. Love you in Christ
What he described around the 7 minute mark....reminds me of the old saying that rings more and more true the older I get...and that’s this: weak Catholic become Protestant, and strong Protestants become Catholic.
min 9:19. The best of Protestantism is union of Christ?!?!? Don’t steal from the Catholic faith just come an live the fullness of the truth. We embrace in a daily basis the union with Christ. If that was remotely what Protestantism has to offer you guys will be in love with Our Blessed Mother Mary Ever-Virgen, but you sadly are not.
@@logicaredux5205 it may be my hearing but I really love God , Ge has done so much for me and family . This “representative” or Protestants is not our best. He is too cerebral. Intellectual. I was quoting DL Moody on that one. He was a great man who did great things in Gods kingdom. If Austin brings on the best Rcc reps then Protestants should have best. Inspired by the Holy Spirit. I’m clay in Christ’s hands. If I am convinced RCC is where I should be then I will be there. If not I will wait on the lord and be justified by faith and live obedient to Christ everyday. God bless you. I only have sincere motives.
@@callingoz7466 - I wish you every blessing God can give you my friend. But DL Moody is only one voice. I heard nothing that could be considered heresy from this man. Certainly not warranting such harsh words.
@@logicaredux5205 greetings, apologies I never meant to suggest heresy only that his words did not have anointing to provide spiritual meaning. There are some who speak from human intellect and some who speak from inner man quickened by Holy Spirit. Spurgeon is example .
@@logicaredux5205 I guess what I’m trying to say is that I’m a charismatic where pastors are guided by the Holy Spirit. After the upper room baptism of fire the 120 were given power from Holy Sprit , boldness to say the words despite death by stoning. This guy is too carnal talking about human behavior rather than our fallen flesh rotten by nature quicken by Holy Spirit to do the will of Christ. I don’t agree with this video at all . I have heard thousands of sermons over 45 years. I know when someone is controlled by Holy Spirit. This guy is cerebral I fell asleep when he was talking. God is spiritual so we need to be spiritual. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. We are saved by Grace through faith lest anyone boast.
What ecumenistic nonsense. We don’t have a divided Church. I converted to Orthodoxy 20 years ago from Lutheranism (LCMS), my father and other family members were Lutheran pastors. Thanks for promoting one of the gravest heresies of the 20th century: the heresy of ecumenism and an invisible Church.
@@GospelSimplicity Yes It's your pleasure Austin , don't be arrogant. I like you , but I have noticed you are just politically correct , You are an intelligent , nice, young man . But sorry to say you are to intelligent to not know where the truth is. I just don't believe it , you just reject the truth , it's your decision , just please be honest , I promise you , you won;t regret , just ask God where the truth is . You will find it only in Catholic church. Check this this out ,,"Heretics abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the Flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ." St. Ignatius of Antioch, "Epistle to the Smyrneans," c. 105 A.D.Because it may turn out that instead of a lot of good you do a lot of evil, and I say it not out of malice but out of concern. You make people believe that nothing needs to be done to be saved, only faith, if it were true, Jesus would not have to warn us about hell,,not everyone who says to me: "Lord, Lord!" will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven "(Mt 7:21). Moreover," a servant who knows his will lord and has not fulfilled it, he will receive a great flogging. But the one who does not know his will and has done something worthy of punishment will only receive a little flogging "(Lk 12: 47f).
@Christos Kyrios That's God's business, not ours. It is not up to us to judge. The Orthodox Church knows where the Holy Spirit dwells. It does not know where it doesn't.
I got everything that I need to be saved in my Lutheran Church: God, Christ, The Holy Spirit, the Gospel, The holy Bible, the creeds, Baptism, The Lord's Super, Pastors, Christian Fellowship, THe charisms of the Spirit.
