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Man, if you're playing with a symphonic band or orchestra, drumset dynamics are a different animal. It's tough finding the right volume for those kinds of situations. But the "louder-drums-quieter-cymbals" still can apply, especially in a large-ensemble setting like that with tons of other instruments.
I used to play in a jazz assemble with guitars and the mood of the songs was usually quiet and balanced and was asked to play quieter some times. Then i went to a big band assemble and the director said "This is the first time i will have to ask a drummer to play louder". So, i guess sometimes you just have to go trough the experiences and have a feel of what works when. For me the main issue is having an idea of how the sound level is coming across for the other people, since our spot behind the drums makes it difficult to evaluate objectively.
Me and my band practice in our garage and I try my best to play at volume with the vocals, guitars, and bass but I also make everyone wear ear plugs so they're all safe
I'll add another reason. If you're playing a big "Me strong Neanderthal drummer!" look, raising your arm way over your head before hitting the snare, you will be too loud regardless of the actual volume because you'll LOOK loud. Cut down the theatrics in a small room a little to avoid the psychoacoustic problems.
True story. A sound man I used to work with had a dumby slider specifically for those people. He would let them "adjust" the volume to their liking. It's amazing how many people were happy with the sound levels after moving that magic slider.
I'm not a drummer. But a self-proclaimed old rocker friend of mine said once a long time ago. "Don't 'hit' the drums. 'Play' the drums." Same thing goes with cymbals. There's a "sweet spot" level of power that you put into your cymbals to get the best tone out of them, and I've found it's between 1/2 and 3/4 power that makes them sound the best. If you just "tickle" the cymbals or if you "smash" the cymbals, you're not going to get a good sound. And there's a lot of grey area between 1/2 and 3/4, so tailor that to the specific scenario.
My old band teacher always yelled at us saying the snare and bass were too loud. So one day we decided to stop playing for a minute and she still yelled at us. Yes I died laughing but sometimes people just expect things to be loud and they don’t listen to it enough and that’s another problem. My brother doesn’t even give me a chance to play quieter he just gets mad even when I try to play quiet.
Hey man this is a really interesting video and I'd have LOVED to watch it years ago. In my experience are three other important factors that complement what you're exposing: 1. Cheaper cymbals = noisier sound. That not necesarrily makes you louder but surely makes your overall sound more annoying, specially when playing cymbals a lot. 2. More massive sticks = louder sound. Try to bring different sticks to different situations or rooms. 3. The more close to the end you're holding your sticks, the more volume you gain (and viceversa). Use gravity smartly.
Can confirm with the sticks. I used to play with thicker sticks and people complain how loud I sound (and it honestly hurt my ears) but then switching to thinner ones, like 7A, not only it gave me more speed but also allowed me to play quieter.
One thing I've noticed is that brighter cymbals in smaller venues don't mix. Zildjian A Customs/Sabian AAX and other bright variants tend to be aggressively loud in smaller venues (even though they are phenomenal cymbals to record or play larger venues with). Darker/unlathed/semi-lathed cymbal variants work way better in intimate settings. They sit well in the mix and don't overpower other instruments, like an acoustic guitar or a percussion ensemble. If there's one tip I'd add to this, it would be to use darker cymbals in intimate/smaller venues. Oh also, maple sticks work pretty well in smaller venues. They're lighter than hickory sticks, and you still have the option of playing cross-stick grooves, which isn't possible with Hot-Rods. Use nylon tipped sticks for better stick definition.
Man. The problems in your videos - in every one of them - are so important and so relevant for my playing that I can't say how much I appreciate what you do. But what you do is really good stuff. Thank you.
If you beat the crap out of everything, its louder and doesn't mean you are a good drummer either, just like being fast and not precise. If you play moderate to light, you'll get more sounds from everything and you won't have to worry about cracked cymbals or broken heads or sticks. Plus nobody will say it's too loud.
3:35 i actually like that mix. In my opinion cymbals are usually way too loud and annoying when practicing or at small venues. Bought some sabian low volume cymbals and love them - they are MUCH quieter and take away the loud ass screaming piercing cymbals and not bother everyone in the house/block yet loud enough to still use with guitar/bass players and be well balanced with all the other drums when practicing - like they are not too quiet they are still a really decent volume. It actually feels more like what a drum kit "should" feel like instead of having everything be so easily drowned out by the hihat and the lovely toms drowned out by the shrill cymbals. It also sounds better if you're jamming with your buddies just trying to capture the jam on your phone wrapped in a towel and not having everything drowned out by the hihat. Cant recommend them enough. Can not believe it took me almost 2 years of playing to realize low volume cymbals existed they are a tad expensive but worth every penny. Hope I can help even one person find them. Nice video - cheers
Drummers that hit too hard are like guitar players that turn their amps way too loud. Don’t be that drummer. There’s no need for it. And you may lose friends if you do it on their kit and they have their dream kit.
ive always been an extremely hard hitter, especially on the snare and kick, and i can say.. If it makes you feel like ur deaf after playing you needa quiet it a bit down cuz its more than likely somewhat the same for the people listening.
what reslly opened my eyes was working at a jazz podium. The really good drummers could play with such intensity and it never felt loud. Turns the drums into a whole different animal.
Gotta say...as a hard hitting drummer for 37 years,I have been told that drums have been too loud many times but 9 times out of 10,it's been the snare drum....only time I've been told to lay off cymbals has been at gigs in smaller venues where sound man needs them lower for his FOH sound...
garypetrol: I get the same issue at many gigs I play. The funny thing is, the FoH guy is in charge of the snare volume! I tell him I’ll play pretty consistent, and it’s up to him to mix it right. Seems they don’t like to be told that...😑
@@Rockin_Ross True to an extent, except when the volume is so crazy that you have the half the stuff muted, and everything else backed down to where it's almost not even getting ran through the PA anyways, then how much control does the sound guy really have at that point? I've ran sound for bands outside that I had the guitars turned all the way down and you could walk a mile away and still hear the guitars, and the mix was horrible because their stage volume was deafening and too loud to actually try to put any of that in the PA, and this messes up the balance of the mix. They basically had their guitar amps louder on stage then I would have made them out front, and that meant that even with them muted they were drowning everything else out because I didn't have enough PA to get everything else that loud which is crazy because it was actually a very nice PA even though it was smaller and I had no problem blowing people's minds night after night at this festival with rock bands, Dead cover bands, and some jazzier acoustic stuff . I think some people don't understand that mixing live sound is not the same as mixing a song in the studio with complete control. When it's live, for everything except outdoor stadium gigs, you are blending the stage volume with the FOH sound. That is what the audience is hearing, a blend between the stage and FOH. Even if you have in ears the drums still have there own acoustic volume on stage. This is also the same reason that recordings straight off the board's main LR are almost never what you heard while you were there. Instead you usually get way too much vocal (because it's sound isn't being produced anywhere else so you have to have it loud in the PA) and the drums or guitar that was so loud on the day on stage and even loud out front is barely audible (because it was already loud and didn't need much if anything put though the pa)....I say all that to say, remember that a good sound guy is there to help you sound the best you can, and if he's asking for something from you, work with him, he might be right. He might also be wrong, but at least he cared enough to try to fix it. Only good sound guys will ask you for stuff like turning something down, the lousy ones will just throw it up, make sure it's not feeding back and go take a break. The most important thing, is to put the sound of the music first. When people start caring more about the sound of their own instrument is usually when it gets messed up.
I remember Steve Goold talking about this in one of his videos - he said the smaller the room, the darker the cymbals. I guess dry would be the extreme end of that. I've also used Gen 16s when I needed to be quiet. It was actually both times a pretty big room, but both times we were supposed to be background music, so people had to be able to talk despite us. The Gen 16s work pretty well for that.
Makes me less anxious to get into drums, I thought it was inevitable to make a lot of loud noises and now knowing that it's possible to play quietly makes me happy :)
you good guy.God Will Always Love you.my guy drummer is Very Aggresive and loud,i told him but He is trying to Dump me.Now i left already,to avoid my eardrum getting more damage.
The key to playing at an even volume is to play comfortably. A good rule of thumb is to set your drums up to how you sit naturally, not to fit yourself to the way a kit is set up. If you're feeling awkward then you're sitting wrong. If you have your cymbals a mile high above your head, and you slam into your drums by playing from your shoulders, then you're going to play too loud, and you will eventually hurt yourself. Cymbals should be no more than 12 inches above your drums, and somewhere between 30 to 45 degree at an angle. Your hi-hats can be level to a fifteen degree angle, but you'd want them to be at rack tom level. Your snare and toms should be angled slightly, about 15 degrees, so you're not coming straight down on any of the heads, but you're still getting a good amount of volume. Your stick swinging should come from wrists and forearms, with as minimal elbow use as possible. Also, rods rule, and any drummer who hates them isn't a real percussionist. Just my humble opinion, of course. ;)
30 degrees or steeper and 12 inches or fewer above toms? That sounds a bit excessive on the angle. Picturing it, I can't imagine being able to get a crash sound in a cymbal with them that steep.
Yeah 30 is a bit steep, mine sit about 15 degrees. A very wise man once gave me some incredible advice which changed my drumming forever. Set your drums and cymbals so that with ease you can reach every single one with your hands (not sticks).
You know, you're right. Never been good with math. 15 degrees would be best, and about 12 inches above your drums max. You really only want to kiss your cymbals. Trying to beat the shit out of them to get volume will cause wrist fatigue, break cymbals, and shorten your lifespan as a drummer.
Sometimes I wish that RU-vid videos could only be 45 secs long. Like on Instagram. Ej. If you’re playing a small room, they get the (... blank..) cymbals. Bye Everybody: 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
Self mixing, We don't play the same way as we did in the 80's and 90's the rooms are all smaller. I thinks it is important to adapt. smaller amps and self mixing. Most all the recordings I hear in Pop, Blues, Rock etc have the snare drums audibly higher than the cymbals. This is probably due to the amount of sonic real estate the cymbals use up. This is not a rookie thing either. I know many drummers who have this habit who are in their 50's.
My guitarist is ALWAYS too loud- the only time we sound good is when we play out with a sound guy. He also doesn’t take well to being asked to turn down…he’ll always try to sneak the volume back up.
What amuses me is when guitarist are turned up around 11 on their amps, but us drummers get the blame for playing loud. I've done experiments and played super quite on a gig only lifting my drumsticks about an inch. I did the whole song at pianissiomo level, I was drowned out in volume & I couldn't even hear the drums. When I asked the guitarists about it in the break, they had no idea of what I was talking about. So that goes to show some guitarists only care if they can hear themselves, that's it.
this is pretty simple really...if you are "crash riding" play the middle of the cymbal & not the edge....or any other cymbal for that matter...it does sound better in almost any situation because you are "balanced" not beating the shit out of them which can only result in breaking your cymbals long before they need to be .......it took me a long time to finally understand this.....and Ive been playing 40+ years.....goes to show your always learning....
Gnarly vid so I subbed. Anyone have a link/recommendation to some decent Hot rods? Also I know people like a certain tone but I'm surprised more people aren't talking about the tightness of the drums, it definitely has an impact on noise levels. I like mine tight for the A7X feel but my drums are so much louder than my cymbals.
I'm a drummer that sings and the band I'm in has 2 guitar players one of them is always too damn loud and claims he can't hear himself. But yet he's clearly the one that's throwing everyone off
what about smaller cymbals are better for smaller rooms? Or fast crashes or dark crashes are better? I'm not sure about this...just throwing it out there.
I'm planning on starting with drumming, but I'm not sure if can get away with playing acoustic drums in my house. I've been playing electric guitar with a loud amp for 5 years now, and my neighbor has been really nice and not complained. But i'm worried drums might be even louder. Any thoughts?
Maybe you could talk to your neighbour and do some test plays to calibrate your strength, in the best case he won't complain either :) If you're not tight on budget, you could get a set of Remo Silentstroke heads and Zildjian L80 cymbals, boom, problem solved
I'm a band drummer, so this is true! I keep the volume very low for rehearsals at this small house. This guitar player *always* saying "this drummer is playing too loud! The kick is too loud that I can't sleep at night!" I'm playing Promark hot rods or very small sticks, light on the cymbals, using Moongels, and I never solos on rehearsals! That guitar player is also a drunken wreck, being 1-2 hours late every time, very loud vocals and guitar parts, and soloing during our cover song lists. Jeez some people.
I’ve been using the Steve Smith Tala Wands (4 bamboo slats held together in a square like rods). They do much like the Rods do but with less mass in your hands. I can get good punch and feel from those that leads to a great balance overall. Great video, man! You always have most excellent things for us “little guys” to consider.
Thanks for this! I've started using hot rods even on my cymbals while still using a regular stick with my snare just because I know I play my cymbals too loud
Good tips. When I play in a small room or quieter gig, I like to use maple sticks, like Vater Recording. They are lighter than hickory, making it easier to control cymbal volume.
At band practice I whale man, just like live. BUT. I used cracked cymbals, so it keeps the volume a little more chill. I like to practice with the same energy that id use live. That way I don't struggle with adjusting for the first couple shows in a tour.
So my band recently played a show in in one of the worst rooms I've ever been in. All kinds of natural delay and reverb from the room. Our sound guy said we'll need to be quiet for this one, and we were. We had long-time followers come up to us after the show and tell how it was the best sounding show we've done in a long time.Listen to your band mates, listen to the sound guy (if you have one), and play for the room.
good content, thanks. As you said right, kick and toms usually never are considered too loud, it is the cymbals (and snare) -When buying cymbals, drummers should always consider that they should not be too bright, it is especially the heavy drummer fraction that uses way too loud and gright sounding cymbals which in this style of music is usually mixed down anyway.
Luckily this isn't an issue in Extreme Metal. I'm in fact told to play harder and amp up the aggression by my band. I currently blast at 230bpm but they want 240! I WISH I had it as easy as a lounge/session drummer having to play quieter! I love it though, keep on drumming! :)
Yeah, cymbals for me are the culprit, I need to practise more to get them in better balance and especially to get consistency. And the point 1 is something as also a sound guy I always stress to all the bands (including my own) - the band has to be able to mix themselves. I did a band that I actually almost didn't need to touch the faders because they were able to balance themselves so well it sounded great out of the box.
how about when your guitarist uses a 100 watt tube head into a 4X12 with scooped mids and a smile eq who keeps turning up because he can't hear himself and plays this way at every gig no matter the size and every gig people come up to the band and tell everyone to turn down because the guitarist will refuse to acknowledge his own volume because he can't hear because he's scooped his mids like an idiot and everyone else is drowned out from their smaller rigs that they brought for a smaller venue and then you just fire the guitarist hahahahahahah :(
Hey man! Great video! Does tuning change the volume of your snare/toms? Also, I've been playing drums for 8 years and no one has complained... Until now. I've switched to hot rods but my toms and cymbals don't sound good with them. I'm thinking about converting my acoustic to a hybrid but I just bought my acoustic 6 months ago. What do you recommend I do?
I totally agree with the general argument. Your light playing is very, very light though, esp for the rock/punk styles you're doing there. Playing rock drums is a noisy business, but smashing the cymbals with full force is a bad idea. And not just for your ears, those things also break and cost lots. I like to really whack the snare and hit the cymbals just enough to get them going with a consistent sizzle. Sounds better too without the dominating cymbal wash. One more point, use earplugs people!
I've been playing at gigs for a few years now and for that I would like to ADD some points of view/experience on that matter: Number one point is EXACTLY what Stephen said in the end of the video. Drums aren't always the problem. Keeping that in mind will certainly minimize some self critics you may be having. Sometimes the guitar player is keeping the gig loud without even notice, and thinks it is you (drummer) who's pushing up the overall volume. WRONG. Next time try to suggest him to bring down his volume so you'll do the same too, and everybody will be happy at the end. Second thing you should consider is music style and your audience. You can't play a hard rock setlist in a restaurant or a cafe, and THAT may be the main problem here, because your music style will lead the band to play louder, heavier and powerful than you should due to the venue and audience you're playing. One option can be play your set with a different approach or arrangement, but everyone from the band must set their minds into that, not just the drummer. It won't work you play with brushes if your guitar player is still on his electric guitar soloing the hell out of it. The band must function as a solid, trusty and homogeneous thing. Third thing is: you must respect your contractors. After all, 90% of the time you're there for the money (let's keep your love for the music aside), so, if they come to you to complain about volume, obey. And try to find alternatives methods to help you do that. It doesn't matter if you don't agree with him, otherwise you're gonna loose future gigs. That obedience can be a mentor for you (in the hard way, of course), but that's life sometimes. And finally: be aware that you may not work for some things, that's normal. I'm terrible using brushes and I think I will never get used to them in my life of a drummer, so, everytime someone calls me to play somewhere that I REALLY need to keep it down, I explore some alternatives, like using broomsticks (which are awesome), or dampening very hard my drums to play with regular sticks, I may use a different drum beater aswell, and even turning off the wires from my snare helps sometimes, but again, that will only work if your whole band follow you!
Here’s an inexpensive way to make your “bright” cymbals instantly “drier and darker” - wrap some electrical tape around the tips of your sticks. Cuts out the highs and softens the attack. Also set your cymbals in a small room on a steeper angle so that you are only able to hit with the tip.
Great video, but I don't fully agree with the rimshot aspect. Sometimes I feel rimshots are mandatory to get a modern and tight sound (not always obviously). Learning to play kind of quiet rimshots is important as well so you don't have to limit your sonic possibilities.
another way to tell if your too loud: if you cannot hear other instruments clearly , you are playing to loud , excluding concert stages of course...this really applies to smaller venues...well lets be honest...in small dives...
huh, see I feel like I specifically had to practice playing loudly. It was always easier for me to practice with just my wrists and forearms, fewer moving parts. If I need to pull my whole arm up and down, it would mess with my timing. Now, having practiced using more arm, a bigger motion, and gripping way back on the stick, I feel like I can really bring out some nice punchy sounds out of the drums, which I never got before.
I have been a soundtech for several years now and mixed more than a hundred bands. Most of these gigs were in venues for up to 200 people. Especially in the rock and metal/hardcore genre there are a lot of drummers who hit the snaredrum and the cymbals way too loud. These kind of concerts are very loud anyway - around 100dB at average usually. Still the snare and cymbals are just too loud and i end up in not using the snaremic and overheads at all. So i agree to your point that its the cymbals that are way to loud. However i think the snare is also often hit way to hard. There are just some drummers around who hit the snare so incredibly loud that it just hurts the ears! Like full force rimshots! That doesnt help neither the sound nor the soundguy :P I highly suggest that - if the snare is miced - you just play it moderatly with rimshots if you're in a rock or metal environment. The soundguy can than bring it up to a fitting level for you and you will not hurt your audience or bandmates with unnecessary volume. Another point i wanted to say: consider that an empty room is way louder than a room full of people when you are checking the drumsound. If your in an empty venue the cymbals may sound way to loud but as soon as it is stacked with people they will dampen the reverb and reflections a lot.
What do you do if the drummer always wears ear protection and he can't hear when he's being waaaay too loud for our really small practice space? Also, When we ask him to quiet down he tells us to buy ear protection....
I never owned a kit, or had lessons in any way but I can drum well enough to impress someone that doesn't play, and be a 'meh' drummer to good drummers. I've always played on my drummers kit in bands I was in. This was always my approach to playing, being lighter on the cymbals than I would drums. Glad to see this is actually a thing.
Good advice, Stephen. I've lived by some advice given to me when I was a very young drummer and it works every time. I was told, if I can't hear EVERYBODY else in the band, then I'm too loud. In 38 years of professional drumming, I can count on one hand the number of times I've been told I was too loud. Hot rods are great for rehearsals too. Greatly cuts down the incidents of volume creep.
