I've suffered from this strat, because I got people in my games (high plat) that saw this and thought "Hey that's busted I can do that" turns out, they cannot do that.
The Kruggs camp resets off the two initial kruggs being dead, the smaller kruggs that spawn out of them dying do not impede the reset timer. So with Kruggs, you either take it all if you need the gold, or just kill the big one and run off, and the medium ones that spawn out of it will vanish in like 30 seconds.
I've suffered from this strat in an insane number of my ranked games, but the weirdest part is the people that are going around taking the camps and denying ny farm have blue health bars?
Best thing about seeing the different playstyles and mindsets between Baus and Tilt is that they both fall back on fundamentals of the champion, cheesing and getting as many charged Q as possible, dying in the best way possible to maximise disruption in the passive and getting as much farm as physically possible because Sion gets so much more gold value from it
I mean, if you don't do those things you're just playing the champ wrong? It's like saying "it's funny how top, jnugle and support maokai all use the same fundamentals. They abuse the short cooldown and high damage of Q, try to get as much passive procs as possible, use sapplings as wards and to delay rotations of enemies, use ults for zoning and dodge skillshots with W." Having a different playstyle/role shouldn't mean that you stop playing your champ correctly. There are multiple correct ways to play a champ, but not using what the kit offers is always bad.
@@poro3246 but what is the defined 'correct' way to play Sion? In 1v1 the enemy can easily dodge charged Q so you would normally tap or bait abilities but Baus runs into brush and instantly charges Q in the direction he's already going for the enemy to walk forward into a full charge, I've seen no other player do this effectively. Yes fundamentals are obviously basic champion combos but Baus and Tilt are a whole level above this in knowledge. Is dying a fundamental part of Sion? What about the way Baus does it to gain CS and force the enemy to miss farm or let him scale? What about the way Tilt ignores going for auto and Q to get into better positions in teamfights and die to disrupt? That's more than just 'playing the champ right' they know the fundamentals of dying for maximum gain, just doing it in different ways
That's the problem with riot though. Taking out clever or interesting strategies that make the game fun. If you're so bad you can't figure out how to counter it , you deserve the lost. That's the point in the game isn't it? It's all a strategy game. Imagine having a game of chess where a new tactic was found and it was very strong cause no one seen it. So they ban it or change the rules cause no one figured out how to counter it yet. 🙄
@@johnrodrigues2018 I'm of the idea that speaking of counters is a bit much, the strategy baus has in pretty infamous at this point. We know for a fact that he thrives when ignored, and if he gets camped it's hard for him to do anything relevant because he's too weak to proxy, he only claws back when the enemy laner leaves and he goes full ape, 10+ Cs a minute and catches up or the top laner becomes an idiot and tries to fight him in a bad spot or gets spectacularly outplayed with vision tricks. It's not even a counter, it's the usual. Camp him and he can't do shit, you do that with strong players, and Nasus, I guess. Kinda funny that at that point, it's the player soaking up attention from the enemy jungler if you camp him, rather than the champion's playstyle. I like off meta, whatever the game, it's 100% better than meta. Meta is boring. If you can win with style and wit it's incomparable to just winning because you're strong.
@@BygoneT exactly. But riot doesn't like offmeta at all. They have nerfed soo many offmeta plays over the years that I lost count. I still dream about ap yi mid. The same shit with worlds, out of 160 champs only about 30 were played/banned throughout the worlds this year because the other champs are dogshit nerfed into the pit. WW got a rework and he still doesn't make championships.
@@johnrodrigues2018 massive differences between the fundamentals of chess vs league aside, chess has indeed received it's fair share of rule changes, mechanic implementations, and so on. chess hasn't remained the same game with the same exact ruleset for its entire history.
I remember running double jungle back in like season 2 with Shaco or J4 or other early pressure junglers. Obviously not quite at this level but still good to see all this time later it's still ruining the enemy team's day XD
It's really hard to pull this trick off if enemy laners don't all pick losing lane matchups and aren't afking in lane. You can't get away with this cheese above plat, let alone pro play. I know this was probably meant as a joke, but still.
It would be interesting if the support role in general shifted more towards a disruption playstyle instead of "the guy who sits in the same lane as the ADC and just builds damage anyways".
@@aubinaps1427 well an support just can rotate and ward through the map, nothing esle. I mean they can make magic with the "support" there are no limits.
The way you play is so intentional, every move you make has a clear and concise reason behind it. The most informative league RU-vidr for me personally
The add on PP has been a literal game changer i cant express enough how uselful the information it collects is in a game like lol. Knowing your own strenghts and stat improvement has been very usefull to me and the jungle timers are almost like cheating to someone like me who have no interest in timing everything myself as a toplaner.
Love these videos, not like other big league creators, like zwag, or neace or other really extra, you're just really entertaining and know what you're talking about!
The problem with zwag and others is that they smurf in iron/bronze and their enemies are literally inting. Anyone can be good by going 5/0 at 5 mins coz the enemy is just braindead. This guy, however, is throwing these strategies in high elo where people aren't dumb af anymore
It's just super nice to see, after all these years, players still finding new ways to play this game after so much 'meta' has been set in stone. Thanks for opening our eyes to new pains for everyone alike ;)
A sick and pretty complex gameplay imo. Tbh the problem here is to coordinate ur rotation with the jungler's one, especially if u're not premade. Nice job man, what I was questioning now is if this strategy can be applied also to other champs.
I am a mono sion for a long time and you was my inspiration for playing the champ, recently i got diamond 2 with sion using a very cheese oriented play style, my acc name is Blooder Knight and i play in the Br server. This new format of the video that u explain what is thinking teach me so much. i wish you and you family all the best, thanks for the videos.
It's still not working i mean c'mon it's a fun strat but after i checked his account most of his sion support games are losses and if you win with that strat it just means you would have crushed them more by playing normally, fun strat tho tried it on ranked losed my games got reported a ton but still fun :D
I won 4 out of 5 but to be honest I got carried in 2 of these games. My enemies were always covering their jngl. But this in turn led to a mid lead for my team for example. The risky part about this stray is that you need teammates who know how to play with the lead you are handing to them. So it’s def. no solo carry strat. And sometimes it’s hard to give away the responsibility^^.
@@Schwachsinnn agreed, in my case : my adc finishes at 0/10 because of him not knowing how to play it safe against 2 opponents and i also end up in 3v1 situations in their jungle with my team not ss ing the sudden dissapearance of their laners and not moving towards me to help, so basicly i end up feeding at the cost of my team getting jussst a little bit of exp and gold boost while my adc and me die a lot, but yeah i also played that badly because i never played this strat before
@@Tilterella hmm i just checked right now, you got more wins then last time i saw from 49 to 61 % win at sion support (18 games in total) it's great but it only works because you're good at it, most of us can't run this strat especialy in lower elo where people tend to get angry easier and are obviosly not good enough to react to this (as teammates more then ennemie) edit : I am not hating btw i love your countent and watch your videos and shorts everytime they get recommended to me keep it up king :D
Would love to see how this strategy works into kalista/draven + engage support or lux/morg + cait, your adc can never play the game and enemy team just gets free plates and can dive after some time as well
I am a Sion OTP since 8 year, learning from a wide group of Sion player, in the time where Sion was unplayable on tank, I learn the laning and lithality BD from Baus, highground mining with Longsiji (a chinese cheesy Sion main), how to int from Godlike and Big G (The int for tower and nexus, not baus inting strat), and how to cheese and having fun from you. It is amazing, how the Sion Gang plays and how different and unique every single sion mains are. Without all these pioneer, i think i can not ever get to plat this season, hopefully riot stops to target nerfing sion playstyles, it is such a amazing designed champion with a lot of fun in it.
That reminds me of that one game I played where I was autofilled jungle and faced a toplane Janna tp/smite, midlane Syndra tp/smite and a Kha'zix jungle, and I litteraly couldn't farm a single camp for like 5 minutes straight. That was before the support item change and the nerfs to Janna top that aimed to keep support on their lane
You can press alt+z (it takes you to Geforce experience) go into settings, hud layout and you can turn off the mic and circle icon at the bottom of your screen.
I actually was just thinking, Sivir Solo bot is great because she's basically unpushable with her kit and having Support Sion just roam freely. This strategy is nuts
3:58 - this is what a gank is. Not every gank is to kill. Sometimes you just exist to deny the enemy. Regardless though this is only possible in high elo's as the biggest problem with low elo is a lack of confidence. They're not confident enough to make large or in some cases even medium sized decisions and often just hover around hoping someone else makes any decisions or carries them. A lot of people in silver are very good at hovering the smurf of their team, but aren't good at making and committing to a decision of their own. As if it goes wrong, they will get the blame. And they don't want to be at fault. However they are quick to blame your bad call, and even sometimes try to sabotage you so they can blame you for the loss. Sabotages include stealing farm, never helping, never ganking, wasting their own summoner spells on the air, throwing their ultimate at you, and in some cases stalking you to try to last hit anything you try to. This is also why so many of them believe that just because you died multiple times in lane it's actually a reportable offense that can get you banned. So many "9x top GG" or "/all x9 bot pls". They don't make decisions due to lack of confidence, and then if someone else's call goes unfortunately wrong, they flame you.
It could require further experimentation but... If you run smite and don't appear in lane they will likely assume you are invading. If I was the kha I would blue to red every time to try to deny if I can, or I would insist on leaving a ward to view it at least. Because you show or draw the enemy jungler top its likely safe for you to tell your jungler to do his bot side buff into their bot side camps as they will be open. If everything works out you could leave the enemy jungler without any camps but his leashed buff camp
I have been trying a kinda similar strategy with Shaco sup with smite and TP. It’s been having really good success even with Shaco being a champ that doesn’t scale late game.
This is such a high risk high reward strat which relies on your team. Just mentioning that it relies on your team kinda increases the risk part. Not many people are open to this and are hypercritical when a mistake is made.
You rely much more on your team if you are just playing support the usual way. You're flipping topside, jungle and mid. With a roaming supp strat you have an impact on every lane and create tons of pressure, especially vs a yuumi who cannot counter your roam
Yep if you team never rotates or always fails to secure prio you pretty much have to go back bot and minimize losses because you'll be constantly 1v3ed. Would be cool if there was a way to know if a player on your team is super passive and never roams.
This reminds me of the ole Trick2G nunu strats from back in the day. He would counter jungle and leave them with nothing but the “babies” from each camp and the guy would be level 5 at 20 minutes lmao.
the fact that riot would permaban you if you used curse overlay to get the jungle timers is kinda crazy that u have these things normally without punishment
Sadly, junglers don't want to cooperate in my low elo, so I tend to stand on lane (after the cheese, ofc). After lvl 6 I go roam collecting all the camps on my way and tracking the enemy jungler with wards.
Hey, I’m the 2ndJunglerSion comment from last video. I highly recommend taking umbral glaive, as that helps you invade without being seen as well as keep up in vision score. I go smite flash but after your point about the ADC being tower dove and using TP to save them, I’m thinking of taking TP now! If you want any tips for this strat I could give you some with my hundreds of games of experience with this.
I'm really curious to know if you think strats like this work with anyone other than Sion? I understand that his passive allows you to leverage dieing in a way no other champion can, but I'm really interested to see how other support Champs could run this strategy successfully
I would think shaco could pull it off fairly well. karthus would clear faster so it would be a little bit safer for not getting caught. dunno about as a support though.
Double Jungle has been a cool off meta thing that has worked for years, but has overall been unused due it requiring lots of communication between teammates
This is why jungle is the most OP role. Simply being counter jungled out of the game makes your whole team suffer. I go 4-0 top and maybe i impact 1 or 2 top side jungle fights or help mid, but overall its just my gold lead against the other top laner. Jungle lead however give the whole team a gold advantage.
I play smite and support running at the enemy JG at level 1 was so meta that they had to nerf it so hard So when I played league I tried it a few times with my best attempt with pre rework volibear denying enemy JG farm for 5mins It's nice to see someone actually doing it
Hey Tilt, Is this strat specific to just Sion? Or are there other champs that are capable of doing this? Because I'm not really sure why you specifically use Sion
remind me back when jungle items had one that was a ward item (the green one). I was playing ivern smite support. I would then start the laning phase by getting enemy buff in an istant with ivern's passive then come back to lane with a blue or red buff, 50% into level 2 and no minions xp lost. And then my smite was usefull for drakes and for warding. At the time there was no "support item" with wards. so it was really great. still other player would be negative thinking I was trolling but it was quite an interesting strategy imo.
Highly suggest you download Porofessor and use the Map timers before you attempt this strategy. Download POROFESSOR for FREE: link.overwolf.com/tilterella-porofessor
Sion Smite Teleport Jungle works too, I am a Sion main! May I suggest a more agressive rune sheet tho? First Strike, Magical Footware, Minion Dematerializes, Approach Velocity Nimbus Cloak, Celerity You will stay on people a lot harder and earn BIG gold and I do mean BIG gold buffs from RWEQW Combo.
i tried a similar startegy with bard but without smite, and it is always hilarious how the enemy support also tries to roam, instead of playing for the adc who was allowed to farm for basically for free the entire laning ohase
yo tilt, around an year ago, I played lethality sion support for about 20 games and it was really nice. My strat was pretty similar to yours, sometimes tried to pull off lvl 1 stuff in enemy jungle, sometimes just wait for lvl 2 in lane and i started roaming to mid and helping my jungler 2v1 the enemy jg. After getting serrated dirk (sometimes on lvl4, due to some early kills) I can just oneshot pretty much every enemy jungle camp. And the enemy jg never had raptors, wolves and krugs! You could try that out too! Also was wondering, for sion smite support, wouldn't it be better to get evenshroud or some other support item as a mythic, cus of their low gold cost?
What if you swapped out demolish secondary for the zombie ward and maybe the treasure hunter. So you deny vision and get vision from it and ad lol. And then the treasure hunter can help if you get a lot of assists. Maybe demolish secondary is still better. Just an idea that could maybe fit what you are doing lol
Does this still do well without the support item? Is this still worth it even though you'll be lacking vision control? Love the strategy though and everything off meta :)
this works because sivir is a decent 1v2 laner againt her lane and that they seems to fail freezing. Put a .. jinx vs blitzcrank+adc that freeze well and she would be 0/5 in no time
It's not just the fact that those tiny XP leads are so important in the early game... but also the fact that you're tilting them off the face of the earth. But... of course you know that, Mr Tilterella himself. It's just so frustrating because as a laner/jungler without proper reactions from your team it's next to impossible to deal with.
I like how different tilterella and baus sion playstyle is. Tilterella is 10000 iq deny playstyle + cheese while babus is farm die farm die proxy than BOOM "Baus Special"
I got a 15 day ban for trying to learn this in normals... did 2 matches, won one, and didn't do well the second. Riot told me they inspected my gameplay and told me that I deserved the ban. 12 year old account, never had a ban before. Crazy stuff.
It's a tactic, there is no reason to remove counter jungling. It straight up destroys the jungle, strategy, map movement and ... Kindred... oh poor Kindred...
You forgot one part, the sivir never got an xp lead due to laning against Nilah. Nilah reduces xp sharing drawback. Maybe worth to ban when playing this strategy
this strat is op i played against shaco support with smite when i was jg it was so anoying cause he was stealing half of my jg and was ganking more than his own jg
7:09 "He's not coming to blue side before a very long time" *rek sai going to blue side at the exact moment* I'm a jungler and to be fair, if they decide to waste their support slot to do that, seems fine to me. It's a trade.
Honestly I don't mind the change to invading where the smaller monsters disappear after the larger one dies but man do I despise the reduction to damage on jungle camps when invading. That's genuinely one of the worst changes to the jungle they've made in a long time.
@@hinro It's not a bug it's a confirmed feature. They said something along the lines of "We don't like the current state of invading so we're looking for ways to change it, we tried other stuff but it didn't work out so this is what we got." Basically.
@@hinro I mean nunu still does true damage. He's not really known for being a counter jungler nowadays anyways. Kindred will feel it pretty hard though.
Everyone: Riot is removing counter jungling in season 13!!!! Reality: The enemy jungle camps have the same resistances as the live patches in season 12, the only changes moving into season 13 is that the camps on your side of the jungle have those resistances negated while they remain on the enemy side. This means you deal more damage to your camps while dealing the exact same damage to enemy jungle camps. Counter jungling will be the exact same in season 13 unless riot changes or reverts this in the future, every good counter jungling champion will be nearly the exact same as season 12, nothing in the enemy jungle is different. As for the video, I love the idea, but as a jungle main I'd want to be in voice with the Sion so we could coordinate better. I don't think it would be a viable solo strat in most situations, especially since we all know how ADC mains get when they're alone and have to farm patiently and safely for any amount of time longer than 20 seconds and probably throw the game out of spite even though you're winning. Like this is league we're talking about, even if you let your team know what you're doing in champ select it's a coinflip whether or not they tilt off the face of the earth. I'd also worry about the Sion since there's still a surprising amount of people who still don't know that Sion dying has benefits, so they just see a 1/7 Sion and flame him because he's throwing even though most of those deaths were calculated to fuck over the enemy as much as possible, then they go full doomer mode, start calling for FF, afk in base and flame Sion for the next 14 minutes even though he's literally winning the game for them. I'm a jungle main, I've seen mids throw won games because they didn't get blue from me. I've had top laners literally RQ because they counter picked themselves in champ select fully expecting me to camp and babysit their guaranteed losing lane instead of helping the other lanes that can actually win the game. Strats that require 3 people to not be NPC's to win just aren't going to be worth using over more solo focused strats where you get yourself ahead and carry from there.
I havent played LoL for a long time but I belive there is position in post game stats thats says you how much jungle camps player did. It also divides them for your camps and enemy camps. It would be great to see them for Kha in this game.
Yea there is, but it is completely bugged right now. It shows how many of your cs are from jungle camps, but it always shows 0 from your camps and 0 from enemy camps. Often tried to track that to see if i did well in screwing with enemy jungle, but sadly it doesn't show. Maybe they fixed it on the last patch, but since this is bugged for several months, i doubt it
Looks very obnoxious to play against, but I feel like I have an idea that can (kinda) save counter jungling. Maybe I am just shit and this is a completely trash take, but what if they change smite so that it removes the armor for enemy camps so that the camp becomes just as strong as your own camps? This would make it so you have to smite early if you actually want to kill the camp in a reasonable time, but since you have to waste your smite in order to save time then there will be counterplay for the enemy jungle since they can simply outsmite you when the camp is low on hp. Since you have a limited amount of smites that means that you cant expect to be able to steal more than one camp, since you need the smite to not completely waste time and hp killing a tough camp. It also makes counter jungling a bit risky as you get completely fucked if you use smite only to have the camp stolen by the jungler or a laner rotating to punish your invade. Opinions?
Im really wondering if you can only do this with sion, bc of his passive. Theoretically if u dont die and you know that you and the enemy jgl are alone, bc everyone else is on the minimap somewhere else, you can do this with every toplaner. The toplane is the longest lane, and the minions need time to be at your tower right?
thank god riot is removing/nerfing counter jungling. it always made me feel useless when i cant clear out my own camps and unable to gank or do anything. i feel like the game is just already lost from there because the enemy team already has the advantage and i cant do anything about it.
ntgl. I am kinda glad that they nerf counter jungling in some ways. Cuz You cannot just free b camps anymore without having a chance of being punished. But I still want power farming possibilites back.
I did this in one game. I farmed all the enemy jg, killed him in the process 3 times. Somehow my team managed to die to him in ganks, even tho he was underleved, then he started killing our jungle... This strategy seems like it's a solo carry one, but it's highly team based. If your team makes 1 or 2 mistakes early, all the work you put into denying their jungler is reverted...
boggles my mind that u can install an app to have timers. why don't they just add it? it seems fishy because theres also summoner timer app but you have to manually click that but with camps not???? makes no sense tbh
I don't see how any of this requires the removal of counter jungling, and I hate the idea of removing it. These unconventional strats should be something supported in the game, just how like jungling itself was a unconventional strat in season 1. Instead of denying the strat, it should exist for long enough for people to learn to play against it. Goes the same with jungle funneling. While I hated playing against it, it got removed so fast before people could learn how to deal with it, making the game IMO less fun in the grand scale of things
This is almost like the nubrac strat except he doesn’t have a squeaky washed up jg crying to a riot employee to get him banned 😂 I think it’s a great strat and funny as hell
Bruh if the enemy adc got a decent supp like thresh or even taric your adc wouldnt farm the entire game and would be tower dived by the khazix. Also the second invade has a very low chance to work if the enemy top laner has a stronger early game.
Ok, you atleast need GREAT GREAT GREAT map awareness and game sens for the whole team An adc that can solo lane for a while A jgl that can 1v1the enemy jgl when yours is invading. It's super super niche Also due to not having a supp item you will inevitably fall behind in vision
Riot is not removing counterjungling. They make it harder for laners to take camps witch is fair since junglers get the Monster Hunter debuff when farming minions. It's not because of sion cheesing people. One buff means nothing if you know how to play
