This is why you're NOT safe using Lipo Safety Bags (pt. 1/3) 

That's because "safety isn't cool" RU-vid channels with lots of views get there by showing cheap products in the best light possible. RU-vid (and TikTok) videos get many views by only showing one side of the story, the good fun side. That's how you get views and make deals with manufacturers. Having experienced a lithium fire myself, I am concerned about safety. The problem is, all other battery types before lithium batteries had a bunch of bs warnings about explosion danger. But if you actually took a blowtorch to those batteries, they would barely burn and never explode. So, when lithium batteries put the same warning on their batteries, everyone ignores it "like the boy who cried wolf" they assume it's just BS put there to cover the manufacturers ass. Most people have no idea how insane a lithium fire is, not just the fire, but all the toxic smoke. The truth is, most products that use lithium batteries don't want the customer to know how dangerous they are, because it would be bad for their public image. I know some people who will squeeze their battery packs if they're not charging right, charge swollen batteries, etc... because they don't believe the warnings.

Appreciate your sharing the interesting insight Steve! Also hoping that those fires did "only" destroy property (as bad as that already is) and not harm any people

Unfortunately the labor day fire had 34 fatalities. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_MV_Conception In the Red Sea, there was one fatality, all others escaped into the water. www.divephotoguide.com/underwater-photography-scuba-ocean-news/red-sea-aggressor-sinks-after-fire-killing-one-diver/ This is why these videos are meaningful.

OMG what an absolutely horrible incident. Thank you for sharing

A friend of mine who helped during filming stated 'this bag is not a protection, it is an inferno generator'. And compared to the burning battery as such (i.e. without any protective case) it was a totally correct observation, as unbelievable as it may sound. Up to that point I wouldn't have believed it myself, but it's fact.

Really?:o Maybe you could tell more about that in the future videos!

Per person, you may take 2 lithium batteries up to 160 Wh on a plane (carry-on baggage), in addition to an unlimited number of batteries up to 100 Wh. 115 Wh is not a small battery size, but small for any serious R/C heli or plane (which is our reference scenario), and rather small for today's power tools other than drills. The point re. LiPo "Safety" Bags is, they imply they're safe in general, and typically do not spec any max. rating. From the video, however, you can see that the battery cells go off one by one - and even after the first ones, it is already an inferno. Thus, the bag is not really so safe. It may be safe in some applications - but which are these? And does it make sense to take the risk, especially when there are better alternatives? We don't want to recommend or discourage anything - we just show an experiment, and everybody should draw their own conclusions and evaluate what works best for them in their respective situation.

I've just asked around a bit and no-one has ever heard there were different versions of the lipo bag. Could you point me to a potential source? Important is that the bag seals tightly, otherwise there will always be fire jets even if the material was better.

@@HeliGraphix I think liposack uses a real fire proof material like this stuff ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-Dbr5sUnlx2Y.html but fire jets would certainly occur with larger batteries.

Exactly

​@@HeliGraphixthere is certainly real fire proof material out there that can resist a lipo fire; however I wouldn't expect it to be as cheap as 10$ like most these lipo bags are. Also you certainly do not want a complete seal or you'll have an explosion. Not sure how one would tackle the problem of either causing a pressure vessel and possible explosion by sealing it, or having fire/heat spew from the vent/leak.

@@RandoManFPV Agree on all points. Actually, the ZARGES battery case (which we tested in part 3 as a prototype) ticks all these boxes - unfortunately including the price tag. This said, someone called the company and got some useful tips from their customer service. The respective thread is I believe in the comments section of part 2 of this series.

This is a great question. Without having tested it I would say the documents in the bag - as long as they do not come into contact with fire directly - should be protected for quite a while as the bag will insulate them from heat and itself not get ignited by the heat. As with all matters fire, there will be a certain fire resistance rating (typically this would be 30, 60, 90 or 120 min.), meaning that if the safe heats up enough then the heat alone (without fire) will eventually char the documents. Direct fire would likely also burn the documents as one of the shortcomings of the bag is that even when closed there remain holes on the side where the velcro closes, thus fire can reach the documents. *As a summary:* in a fire scenario where a house is on fire for a limited time, and where the documents are in the bag which in turn is in a safe, they will survive (= my guess).

Just a shitty bag or poor use for the video

I agree. Given how fast the bag got penetrated and that it doesn't seal the battery, I still wouldn't use it. Risk is much too high in my opinion, no matter which battery size. The bag is just not suitable.

That's exactly the Wh of the battery we used for testing, so what you see in the video is what to expect if one of your lipos goes off. I was in the exact same situation BTW. Right after testing I threw all of my bags into the trash and changed to another storage option as detailed in part 3.

In principle you are right. In reality, it does not affect the outcome of the experiment; I briefly mentioned this in the video. Reason is that the weakness of the bag lies (among others) in not closing tightly, and most of all not being able to withstand the fire jets that a lipo in a thermal runaway condition can "eject". When watching closely you can even see that around the nail things are even surprisingly calm. So in short: the nail did not have any significant impact on the course of this experiment. The bags are a failure and should not be sold as a protective solution for lipo batteries. Simply because they're not and will fool people into non-existent safety.

I always thought the same thing, used those bags for years. After seeing the outcome of a real-life test I, too, am of the opinion they should not be allowed to be sold.

@@HeliGraphix personally I use the bags to store them, keep moisture out and prevent something like this from happening and then I store them in an ammo crate

Many of us have followed the same path as you do. My personal belief after having seen several tests is that the bags don't work. They *sometimes* do, but it's not reliable and you don't want to base your safety concept on "it may work". So yes, the sooner you move on to another solution, the better and safer.

Thx Daniel. I have very good video footage of BAT-Safe, ammunition (metal) box and also ZARGES Akku-Safe that will show in detail how well they work. Parts 2 and 3 will come next week and the week after

It sounds like this could work well in terms of controlling the spread of fire. Also, it should be scalable to a degree. Battery transportation on the other hand won't be possible. Since the smoke is toxic and tends to stay around for weeks, it would still be advisable to have this steup in a well ventilated or at least "compartmented" area to avoid the spreading as much as possible.

Yes, same type of battery. The plastic encasing has little to no influence on the thermal runaway of the cells.

Definitely. Actually what you'll see is how alternative solutions behave in detail under the otherwise exact same conditions. Everyone is then free to draw their own conclusions.

It will depend a bit on the size of the battery (thickness of the protective bag is more or less always the same), also on its orientation inside the bag. But honestly in my opinion it just adds fuel to the fire. They shouldn't be promoting these bags as a means for safely storing batteries.

There is an equal number of videos where it doesn't stop the fire, "box" or envelope. The closer you get to the specified rating, the higher the likelihood for a catastrophic failure. The thing is - as said in this video: you don't know and cannot predict whether your use case is "safe" or whether in case of battery failure the bag will also not protect you. And in my book this uncertainty alone rules out these bags/boxes as a suitable, safe storage solution.

This should increase its ability to withstand the thermal runaway, especially when you flip each layer by 180 degress so that there is no direct opening. Consider, though, that every solution that is a hassle tends to be bypassed soon. And since the solution won't be supperior to any of the more "professional" variants, it seems logical to go for one of these.

​@@HeliGraphix I'm wondering whether one could wrap a couple of layers of several standard kitchen fire blankets around batteries for longer term storage, and also wrap some copper wire around the whole package to maintain it in the wrapped shape?! or possibly also bed the batteries in something like rock wool first?!

@@laus9953 Again it seems that such a solution could be effective (would need to be tested, though). Combined with a storange in a non-flammable area this might make sense for longer-term storage. Like said before, if you need to access the batteries more often, you will soon find yourself taking short cuts; thus the simplest (as in most convenient) solution that works is oftentimes also the safest one, simply because it gets used.

Thanks for sharing. The idea certainly is good - keep us posted about practicability. The best solutions won't be used unless easy to use, otherwise many of us will get "lazy" after a while and then the best safety concept is of little use. Might be the case when dealing with a higher number of "double cans". Either way, great idea, please do report back about your findings and progress.

​@@HeliGraphix With the labeling of the cans, you can find your batteries quickly... Yes, the effort is increased to open 2 tin cans. But I feel safer for that... But of course I can't guarantee whether it's really safer, because sheet metal is certainly not a good thermal insulator. Customized ceramic jars would be best...

@@Sugalime3D_FPV OK! Do report back your experience over time, will be interesting for many.

Ideally you charge them in the BAT-Safe. If this doesn't work, then yes, any non-flammable surface without combustible material nearby should work. A friend of mine burnt down part of his house because platic pipes on the ceiling caught fire after a battery had a thermal runaway during charging; afte melting away the plastic pipes in less than a minute the fire spread to the adjacent rooms. You may want to keep this in mind when looking for a charging spot. Best is to always attend the charging and have a plan what to do should a battery catch on fire.

I had heard before that LiPo guards didn't work in some tests, but somehow I never realized they're useless until I saw it myself. Next week and the week after will show a 1:1 comparison (exact same conditions) to safer alternatives. Thanks for commenting.

Didn’t realise they were that crap thanks again

Worse than worse. Don't use them.

No going to get a metal box

The end of the world as we know it 😅

Yes correct, in some cases we used penetration (= nail) to start it, in others overheating with a small lighter. Both methods will change little to nothing in terms of effect. Especially with the bag it is interesting to see that at the point ofpenetration nothing happens to the bag; instead all the action concentrates on the front and rear end. Likely because of the orientation of the cells.

Actually, just an ordinary power tool battery. The specs are mentioned in the video, in addition there are some really interesting threads with further details here in the comments. It's worth browsing. All the best!

@@HeliGraphix WOW I guess it is because power tools use LiOn cells instead of LiPo, (usually only see LiPo fires in the RC hobby) I have heard that the reason Ebikes, Ev's (like Tesla) and Power tools Use LiOn is because they have Higher Energy Density per cell but release it Slower but when there is a Fire it must release that energy ALL at once and that increased Density leads to a bigger BLAST of fire

@@ocularcavity8412 Interestingly, this is incomplete information. All of these batteries are Li-Ion. In R/C we tend to use Li-Ion Polymer batteries, but that doesn't make a difference. Instead, the biggest difference is that in R/C most commonly pouch cells are used. In a fire, these tend to give off the energy in all directions whereas "canned" cells such as in EVs, power tools or e-bikes will release the energy in form of fire jets. The latter appear more violent, but when in an enclosure such as a container, bag, etc., the net result is the same, as the stored energy is the same. If anything, on a per cell weight basis, the violence of a fire will be even higher in R/C (lighter cells!). This was BTW also mentioned in the video(s). Please watch them, there is even more information.

@@HeliGraphixCool thanks that is very interesting there is SO MUCH false or incomplete information out and as just a RC hobbiest (not a battery expert) it is hard to tell how much is true or just commonly considered true but no the whole story, I am glad I was always paranoid and used metal Ammo cans for batteries, I have to do more research on LiPo vs LiOn the fun part will be to decipher the facts from myths

Because the bags cannot even really handle the smaller ones (one single 12s 5Ah alone is around 250 Wh in charged state!), and it's also a form factor question. In addition, consider that many people use 12s as 2x 6s, so overall a 12s stick is not very common. You may instead choose the BAT-Safe XL, an Ammo Box, or the ZARGES Battery Safe. See my two other videos.

lol that's awsome. Finally, a safe bag ... why not give it a try :D

Unfortunately doesn't exist because the energy content is well over 600 Wh - in such cases ZARGES will be among the very few players to provide you with officially tested boxes to withstand a potential thermal runaway of this magnitude.

@@HeliGraphix ZARGES Boxes expensive. Thanks for the info

😅

Just check out the channel videos, all parts are conveniently compiled as a playlist

2000 mAh at what voltage (= how many Wh)? Where did you find the info, I've long been looking for such a statement but never found one. But even then, given the construction of this bag, if the odds are against you then you'll nonetheless burn down. Not worth taking the risk, the bag's a good idea but simply doesn't work.

The music is correctly balanced, but some devices have audio enhancement algorithms activated by default. If such a piece of software were to decide that it's predominantly a music track rather than a voice track with background music, it will boost the music so as to give you the best listening experience. In that case (and we ourselves have had such cases every now and then) you will of course have problems following the voice. Check your settings and deactivate all kinds of Dolby and similar enhancements.

check check check, but it's still loud :(@@HeliGraphix

Unfortunately, as explicitly mentioned in the video, the outcome is exactly the same.

6s with 115 Wh of energy. It is clearly stated in the video - you should watch it, there is more interesting stuff to know! ;-)

@@HeliGraphix i think a 3S 1300 will be not so terrible

@@r-k.fotografie2071 Smaller battery is certainly better. Because the cells go off sequentially (i.e. one after the other), it'll probably still be a similar result, only that it'll last less long. Question is if within this time span it can light something else on fire (like a house or garage or car as some have reported here), and how much damage will the smoke do. I think the more decisive factor is the state of charge of the battery - fully charged will always be devastating, while storage voltage will be a lot less grave.

@@HeliGraphix Thank you for this Info´s

😄 Just don't let them unattended in the car in plain sun light. This also goes for tool batteries.

There is a video somewhere on here where the guy tests a lipo bag with a 2s 2200mah lipo it still burned through.

Yes correct, ammo (or any rugged metal) case is much better. I have some real great footage showing how an ammo case behaves under the exact same testing conditions. Slow-motion reaveals some interesting facts; let me know your opinion once you've watched that video. Will be out next week, roughly same time.

Cool, looking forward to it! :)

Then you use 1 for each lipo. The bag helps but the other solutions are better. I have an even better idea. Lipo bag in an ammo canister. Thats 2 layers.

It's 6s with 115 Wh of energy, so that's 5,200 mAh. A very common size in R/C modeling, and honestly, we often have much bigger ones.

As explained in the video, it actually doesn't - look at the failure mode!

I believe we pretty much all thought that at some point. Well, they aren't.

Hi Tobias, yes correct - it is mentioned and explained in the same video at around 1:20. The overall result and conclusions are the same. You may check some lipo fire videos on the net that are even worse. The exact outcome seems to vary and we've heard about cases where the bag allegedly worked; but again, as said in the video, in most cases it doesn't and who would like to take that risk? It certainly defies the purpose. Therefore it's good to know there are alternatives we can choose from.

This I've never heard before. In that case the problem would be that they're clearly marketed otherwise, misleading people (including myself) to believe they provide safe storage. I'd also say it's unrealistic someone uses the bags for transportation (?), then takes all the lipos out for flying, puts 'em back in for tansport back home, then pulls 'em out again for charging and puts 'em into another container for storing. The LiPo bags I've seen are BTW also marketed for safe charging which certainly is equally dangerous as they do not hold back the fire. I appreciate the comment, though; maybe someone else can contribute whether they''ve seen these bags as being marketed for "puncture reduction only".

HeliGraphix.com Yes they are very misleading! I only learned this from other people in RC over the years, not from the places I bought them!

Fun fact: I just saw that on one of my bags it says "Minimizes the risk of damage caused by LiPo fire". So at least this one was clearly marketed as "fire-proof". I think most are, if not every single one of them. The realization they at best will be able to prevent punctures is probably the very wise conclusion your fellow modelers reached over the years. They should spread the word more.

And he is using lithium ion wich tend to get way way hotter than lipo and can explode iv had a lipo fire in one of thease bags a 4s lipo and it puffed up and smoked like hell but contained it so meh

Andrew robinson plus the battery he put in it was humongous!!

True words! The lipo bags however will never provide you with reliable protection, the design as such is flawed.