This Non-Euclidean Strategy Game Is SO CLEVER! - HyperRogue 

cool

Deez

Im so happy to have gotten this notification! I used to comment about this game because I knew you'd get a kick out of it, but stopped at some point, really glad you checked it out

one might say that there is exponentially more depth than in a euclidean game

Its like a normal game with a fish eye camera.

Seconding. Right clicking is really useful to understand things about the game. I'd also recommend changing the setting to make it so ranged orbs (such as the Orb of the Frog) to require you to hold shift to use them. It makes it so you don't accidentally use the orb by clicking too far away from your current cell.

I would like a link to it.

@@Green24152 I tried, but my comment kept on getting deleted (auto-flagged?). Google sends you straight to it.

So, if "Sokoban" is "Warehouse keeper" (Soko = warehouse, ban=management/accounting), then ""sōkyokuban" is "hyperbolic manager". The "So" part doesn't appear to be related between the two words. In "sōkyoku", it's represented by the character 双 ("Sō" meaning twin); in "sokoban" the "soko" bit is represented by the two characters 倉庫, which is basically saying "warehouse" twice, and the pronunciation of each character separately is unrelated.

Computers probably dont care about weather things are euclidian or not. Of course we, the programmers, do, so it mustve been a big fukin pain to program yea

Look up hyperbolica devlogs

Think of it like a soccer ball, which has pentagons surrounded by hexagons. Except instead of a ball, it's a hyperboloid, and instead of pentagons, it's heptagons.

@@tghy71 just imagine it like a globe but klein bottle

@@sapphire--9375 No, the computers definitely care. If you tiled euclidean space with any tiling, you can very easily represent a tile with just a couple of numbers. e.g. a square tile in the normal square tiling can be represented with just an x coordinate and a y coordinate. Telling when tiles are adjacent is also pretty trivial. If you want the tiles to tile hyperbolic space though, you'd have to represent tiles in a different way that's not quite as easy as "the coordinates, orientation, and type of the tile" since coordinates are harder to use universally in hyperbolic space. (so basically, I agree it would be a massive pain to program compared to a euclidean version)

Meta-nested programmatic interactions. Putting the Cursed in Recursed.

Same :c

try and make a flat surface with the specific tiling... go on...

If you think this is euclidean then you don't really know what 'euclidean' means

You are unable to tile the Euclidean plane with hexagons and heptagons with the tiling shown in the video.

Yes, this also means that they usually cannot follow you out of the biome because heat is only tracked in certain places.

it's more than that. they can only move to cells which are strictly warmer than the one they are standing on, and, they will actively move away from cells that are below freezing.

@@paradoxica424 Oooh, I see! Thanks for the info

good if you can click with it, just like any other genre. some of my friends said they don't like having to restart from zero, but i like it that way.

The dev’s been at the game for five years at least

I think Hyperbolica achieved its goal of being a tech demo. It always felt like the gameplay was treated as secondary by the developer (which is a shame)

i was so upset when he said he didnt like hyperbolica. i dont care that he doesnt like it, it was the way he said it and how he said it. he didnt have to be so harsh ive been watching the dev logs for so long and i know how much love and thought went into the game just for him to say something like "i despise it" (i dont remember the exact words but he could have just said its not for him)

@@pvic6959 He didn't say that. He said "It was very intriguing, but ultimately it was an adventure game, and adventure games disgust me"

Also Hyperbolica is finite and has a premade map, whereas this is procedurally generated and infinite. So it explores hyperbolic space in two rather different ways.

Triple a games vs indie devs in a nutshell

@@JacoTheDeadRuler im pretty sure both are indie just with vastly different intentions

HyperRogue is over a decade old and the developer is an active geometer in academia, it's kinda hard to polish a game visually, mechanically, and juggle an academic day job trimultaneously.

Warped Coast was specifically inspired by parity-dependent gameplay in Crypt of the NecroDancer.

@@paradoxica424 parity huh? I called it parity before, I knew it's the reason i can't smack that goblin. Still, it's kinda cool others use math to describe game mechanics

A grid of only hexagons- rather than the hexagons interspersed with heptagons as seen in a few biomes here- would give you a euclidian 2D playing field. Using hexagons and pentagons together gives you spherical geometry- as you may have noticed from some soccer ball designs.

unique properties of hyperbolic space, particularly the stupidly massive amount of space it provides (for example a circle in hyperbolic space has 10's - 100's of times more area than a circle of same circumference in Euclidean space), Alot of the biomes involve puzzles that take advantage of or show off these properties like the is a holonomy biome where you have to walk in circles to reorientate the world around you. and the biomes like the one with the vines wouldn't work in Euclidean space because it would fill too quickly.

In hyperbolic space, straight lines diverge. This means that if you run away from enemies, they start to line up, allowing you to hit them one by one. You simply couldn't do that in euclidean space, they would all keep the same distance. You couldn't do 1:30 with a grid of hexagons (in euclidean space, you can have hyperbolic hexagon grids), both hunting dogs would always be right next to you.

The game actually has several examples of how the game would work differently in euclidean space. It would be much harder to find other areas, it would be more difficult to escape, and the gimmicks of several areas simply wouldn't work at all.

The Alchemy Lab and Living Cave are both far easier to navigate because of the geometry, they branch and branch without looping back on themselves or hitting dead ends. Alchemy Lab in particular would have way, way more dead ends. There are some later lands that explore other aspects of hyperbolic geometry, with infinitely large structures that couldn't exist in Euclidean geometry like the Clearing (an infinitely large mutant ivy) and the Haunted Woods, which is a "bigger on the inside" trap where you can become lost forever. There's also a process called holonomy where you can change the orientation of things around you by walking in a circle. This is used in the Burial Grounds to dig for treasure with a sword that always points the same direction. There's the Round Table, which is a circle that is only 28 tiles in radius, but contains more area than most cities. Finding the center is an extremely difficult puzzle, whereas it would be trivial (and much smaller area to search) in Euclidean geometry. There's the orb of Yendor, which has a key 100 paces away, and then you have to find your way back. In Euclidean geometry it would be simple enough to retrace your steps accurately enough just by memory, but in hyperbolic geometry, even a single error in retracing your steps can lead you someplace very far from where you were trying to go. In the Land of Eternal Motion and the Hunting Ground, you would never be able to escape the dogs in Euclidean geometry. The lack of parallel lines in hyperbolic geometry makes it so that dogs can't run alongside you, they have to run on exactly the same line as you or get left behind, so they line up nicely in Hunting Ground and get left behind in LOEM. Every land in the game has some way that it interacts with the geometry to create situations that couldn't exist in Euclidean geometry, those are just a few.

You mention Pixel Dungeon in particular, but that's how basically most roguelikes (in the traditional sense) work. I mean, this particular thing is a consequence of the general idea of a character moving in turns on a grid. Fans of this genre are annoyed by how "roguelike" popularly means something totally different now. Any good trad roguelike should be cool too! Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup is one of the most popular ones currently.

iirc he played it on one of his mega variety streams

maybe cause it was a bad adventure game, really shallow with few puzzles or gameplay elements in general, while this game is deep with all of those things

is this adventure though? it has a different flavour

Zeno didn't like that direction of development because of grinding being a potential issue. So instead we have what would be considered an "experimental roguelike" (ignoring the part where this game has been fully fleshed out for a very long time) Of course, some people like grinding but it's not for everyone.

Most are infinite. Camelot, though, is the SFL type.

In practice infinite. Technically every game is limited by (1) player patience, (2) computer RAM, (3) used number representations (think Far Lands in Minecraft). HyperRogue uses a 16-bit signed integer to store the distance from the origin, so if you are patient enough (and have enough RAM) to spend a few hours to go about 30000 steps from the start, weird things start to happen (inspired by Far Lands). Which means that the size of the world is a number with about 7000 digits. Not sure about the individual sections, but they are definitely larger than, say, No Man's Sky (about 20 digits.)

@@ZenoRogue gotya, so limited moreso by computation than geometry. intuitively its really weird to think like, a space can have 3 or more non parallel lines and still be infinitely large, byt thats hyperbolic space for ya I guess

@@ZenoRogue It's funny to think that every zone you encounter are like areas of chords in a hyperbolic circle that has radius of 30000 steps and they never intersect except at Crosslands 3 and 4.

is this adventure though? it has a different flavour

i never thought this was up his alley so i didn't even bother.

significantly faster, not just "faster" (lapse in language, it's forgiveable). for a disk of radius 20 units that's the difference between pi*20^2 ~ 1257 and pi*1.722^5 ~ 165125 units.

It's WAY faster, as the other guy said. A circle with a diameter of 56 would have a circumference of over 10 million.

there are hexagons and heptagons

it's been continuously polished in its mechanical depth for over a decade, so naturally it's going to be better.