This Panel RUINED Ant Man 

I was introduced to Hank via the "Avengers World's Mightiest Heroes" cartoon and really liked him. He was creative and always tried for non-violent solution. Of course when I shift to the comics the fandom made sure to tell me how awful of a human being I was for liking him.

For those of us who discovered Hank Pym through Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes and Michael Douglas, his domestic abuse drama constantly feels like whiplash. No wonder adaptations constantly edit it out.

What bugs me is they dealt with this in an issue of West Coast Avengers when Hank and Jan were on the team. They had a long heart to heart both apologized for things they did in their marriage and Hank especially for slapping her in the middle of his mental breakdown. It was a great issue and really showed they were both over all the drama and they left the conversation as friends again. Then no one even brought it up for a good 20 years until the Ultimates and some really bad Avengers issues where all of a sudden it was front and center again like it happened yesterday.

I'll be honest. As both an abuse survivor and someone with bipolar disorder, I feel like this story- along with the rest of Hank's disordered and unstable issues- kind of makes me like Hank Pym more. Not in the sense of liking another person or a friend, but as a character he's got this darkness that I (to a far lesser and not abusive extent, of course) feel almost... seen with. That yeah, people like me exist, the struggle to be a good person is something even heroes and icons deal with. That mistakes, even horrible mistakes, can follow you but doesn't mean you can't still try to be a hero. Though maybe I'm a bit biased and in the clouds about this.

Hal Jordan almost slaughtered the entire Green Lantern Corp as well as the Guardians. DC managed to redeeem him but somehow Marvel can't do the same for Hank.

01:42 Tigra just chilling while Hank and Janet are having a fight is the most Tigra thing ever.

The problem is not what Marvel was fumbling. It's what never occurs to people. He has paranoid delusions. Basically, he is schizophrenic. But writers have gone full domestic violence with Dan Slott making it (and himself) worse with the whole "It was one time" phrase Hank makes in Mighty Avengers. Marvel didn't untangle it all from the get-go.

This is an important story, both in its portrayal of abuse and the ramifications it has had over the years for *both* Hank and Janet, but things need to be kept in context. Prior to the whole chemical exposure thing Hank was negligent, locking himself in his lab for long periods and generally not being available for Janet, emotionally abusive, and increasingly frustrated by his failures (especially Ultron). After the chemical thing it started to ramp up to the point that Hank was basically in the middle of a paranoia-riddled, psychotic break when he struck Jan. From where I sit, Hank was not a wife-beater (he struck her once at the height of his breakdown and paranoia, never again) but he *was* abusive in other ways before the chemical shenanigans ever started. He *may* have gotten to the point of physical abuse on his own, failures and resentments mounting over the years, but the chemical exposure speed-ran the process.

Even if the original intent was supposed to be an accident, Hank's callousness afterward towards Jan wouldn't have changed much, in my opinion.

Hank helped create the Avengers Academy and protect the students from danger. He stopped Ultron by merging with it, sacrificing himself. It’s so weird when right after these achievements, someone will bring up the wife-beater allegations, as if he can never redeem himself from that.

I was too young for this story, but I started reading the West Coast Avengers when Hank was still dealing with the ramifications of it which lead him to the point of attempting suicide. Hank was the first character I had ever seen try to take his own life. It really made a big impression on me ( I was about 12 at the time) and I have been rooting for him ever since.

Favorite soft-retcon about the incident, for addressing it directly while also taking it thoughtfully within the context of the bipolar disorder conversation, comes from the first Unstoppable Wasp series, where Janet explains to Hank's daughter Nadia that the slap wasn't the reason she divorced him, it was because he had been refusing treatment for years. The slap was just the moment where she reconciled with herself that she couldn't save him and was putting herself in an unsafe situation.

I think recently a story brought up how Hank is most associated with that slap. It frustrates him how he invented pym particles, was a founding member of the avengers, one of the greatest minds to be Scientist Supreme of earth, but all he's remembered for is slapping Janet and Ultron. It would be interesting how a writer could make a story of Hank finding a way to actively redeem himself while seeking help for his mental issues.

My first exposure to Hank was in West Coast Avengers in the mid-80s. This was well after his and Jan's divorce, but with both of them on the team. Hank in his Dr. Pym: "I dare not ever use the Pym Particles on myself for medical reasons" persona. At the time, there was a definite push by the creative to show Hank and Janet making peace with one another and perhaps working towards a reconciliation. There were fans that were adamant that they not do this. And not just because Hank's actions were unforgivable in their eyes, but because it would make Janet seem weak and pathetic to go back to the ex-husband who had abused her in the past. Again, in their eyes. I've always been conflicted, having heard good points from both sides. As such a significant moment in both characters' history, Hank's assault on Janet (intentional or unintentional) should never be forgotten or brushed aside as "no big deal.". Plus, as a tale of domestic abuse, it's a powerful, visceral story. On the other hand, as someone who wants to believe that people can grow and change. That repentance and redemption IS possible, I want for Hank, who has expressed regret and remorse for his actions many times over the years, to someday be forgiven. It doesn't mean he and Janet have to get back together. And as I said, I don't want that story to be forgotten. I'd just wish that we as fans could move past it.

I laughed harder then I should have at *"Did hE sTrike tHee, wOmAn?"* 4:17

I'm very disappointed that this story, while well executed, has made a character with a lot of storyline potential radioactive to use. Also, the fact Shooter is quick to say he wasn't planning to make him a wife beater, but makes him extremely verbally abusive. Like that's much better.

I think it had a very realistic finish after the cursed panel. People acted like it was a real world occurance....how people would treat the situation if it were happening around them IRL. It sparked real emotions from many because they either dealt with a similar situation, knew someone who went through something similar and just like real life it's been hard for Hank Pym to recover from it I think it was a needed panel for the time...especially because topics like that were rarely addressed. It definitely got a lot of attention which could have been part of a way to shock fans...but who knows...

I once spoke with Jim shooter at a convention and I spoke of the issue afterwards where Jan divorced Hank. He said that during that time he talked with Stan lee about how the fans hated it and he said that Stan told him “don’t sweat it. People sent me hate mail all the time for giving Spider-Man a hard time. By the way how many books is it selling”. Jim said how many books were selling but I don’t remember the number but it was apparently a lot. Apparently Stan replied “you’re doing good kid”.

I can never stop laughing that Tigra, Is in these issues, and after seeing everything that happens here, she still decides to become Hank’s girlfriend later.

I like Hank, the science adventurer, but Yellowjacket is proof that the Avengers really REALLY need Doc Samson at all times. I don't think the slap should be used to say Hank a bad person because this isn't something he would have done if he was of sound mind. He was having a mental break down, and everyone just ignored it. Jan even used it to finally marry him like she had always wanted. I think the slap is fine to bring up in the context of Hank seeing it as one of his biggest failures and something he personally needs to keep striving to put behind him. I don't think they should have other characters bring it up as a put down or insult to make Hank seem lesser.

He was not a failed scientist, he invented the pym particle, giving him AND Janet the ability to change size. also a helmet to talk to insects. And as mentioned invented a lot of robots including Ultron.

I feel with context, Hank Pym isn’t irredeemable, he obviously is dealing with mental issues, and if Iron Man can be praised for dealing with alcoholism, a comic character dealing with mental problems that reflect the real world is pretty unique and can show a positive scenario with dealing with the illness Also I though Mary-Jane wore a lot of lingerie around the house, I guess that was a bit look in the 80’s

Is it wrong that I was hoping Sasha would insert the panel of Iron Man saying, “Maybe we should disband while we have the chance” in the middle of the tribunal sequence? 😂

I'm glad I got my introduction of Ant-Man from reprints of the actual first stories. I still remember how good of a man Hank was, and how joyous Janet felt during her first flight that she decided to love Hank forever right then and there. It was such a magical origin story due to that love, and very much in the core of old Marvel canon just like the family life of the Fantastic Four. I don't at all appreciate how Marvel changed over the years from supporting these forever love stories and marriage to actively going out of their way to ruin these love stories and marriages.

It is quite fascinating that a lot of patently horrible things heroes have done were forgotten or pushed aside. Remember when Venom had to eat brains to sustain himself? Neither do any of the modern heroic Venom writers. I suppose this is a good example of how the more mundane and _real_ issues can have a stronger and lasting effect. Demon in a Bottle was brought up here, which was one of the most praised portrayals of alcoholism and how to get out of it. This stuck with Ironman too, because people could relate to it. Only for him it turned out to be a redemption story. Either way, I like that when things get real it feels more visceral. A black eye is one hundred times more earth shattering than the 20th time all of the Justice Leage got killed by some supervillain.

Poor Hank just can't live this down becuase the writers can never let it go.

My feelings about this storyline are…complicated. On the one hand, mental illness and domestic abuse are both incredibly important subjects that are absolutely worth discussing, but on the other hand, using a fan-favorite superhero couple to explore those topics in a mainstream comic book is…a controversial choice. As you mentioned in this video, it’s something that risks damaging the reader’s perception of these characters for years to come, and can come off as shortsighted at best and downright offensive at worst if the issues aren’t handled with the sensitivity and respect they deserve. And while I can appreciate what they were trying to do here in exploring Hank Pym’s battle with depression and how toxic it is for people to refuse to acknowledge their mental health, I can’t in good conscience defend how badly that one panel messed up his characterization for decades afterwards.

13:42 Also props to Shooter for only selecting the ones where Hank didn't save the day. It's easier to do a character assassination that way. Which Avenger was the one most likely to beat Kang? Pym. Avengers 8, Avengers Annual 2, The Contest of Champions.... though Yellowjacket always just kind of sucked. Pym had the most success as Goliath... it kind of helped he was the team's remaining "big guy."

Comics was always the worst when it comes with dealing with mental illness. The Avengers: The Crossing is a good example of this. The guys behind the attempted soft reboot of the Avengers tried to claim that the Hank slap was an earlier attempt by Kang to subvert/control Hank Pym that went awry, so Kang decided to switch to Iron Man because he's more able to bend than break. The creators (writers and editors) had Tony murder the then Yellowjacket who returned from the future to warn the Avengers of Kang and his plans for them, the nanny for Crystal's and Quicksilver's daughter, and then attempted to kill Janet Van Dyne. They've made Tony so irredeemable, but their plan was to have him replaced by a teenaged version of him. Which didn't last long, esp. with how annoying the younger boozing that always screws up (endangering friends and others, encluding the burning down a frat house and almost murdering his girlfriend, etc.). Thanks to Heroes Reborn/Return, most people were able to forget about how Iron Man was portrayed, while Hank Pym's forever tainted. Recently they tried to redeem Hank Pym, by killing off Janet, have Hank take her identity, and have him trying to date Jocasta who had Janet's memory engrams. They had Hank and his team meet up with the Inhumans, and the member of the royal court who can see the vulnerabilities of his enemies claim Hank was 'more complete/whole'. It seemed that Hank went off the deep end again, and that was before the Ultron/Hank Pym skin thing. The writer and editorial teams should consult with experts who understand mental health and therapy, as well as marriage counsellors, if they want to really start to redeem Hank Pym. It may be a long story arc, but it'll be worth it.

Considering his deterioration in the lead up to "the slap", I think having it be an accident would have diminished the impact. This was a story about a man in a downward spiral. It's disturbing, but it's real. Maybe the problem isn't the panel itself, but that he's never had a successful redemption arc?

Hank and Jan are definitely interesting characters and have a weird dynamic. I always thought it was strange in the marriage issue how she reveals she knew Hank was suffering from DID and had formed Yellowjacket to deal with the stress...And she married him anyway just because she wanted to so bad. The relationship was toxic on both ends. And yet they were close more than they were not. Jan suffered from abandonment issues and Hank suffered from a host of mental illnesses. But, ultimately they overcame them and remained close throughout. Stories like this definitely have a place in the Marvel Universe. If there were more like this, people might care about the characters more.

Sasha, are you going to cover the panel of Spider-Man punching Mary Jane while she was pregnant during the clone saga? I think it would be interesting to discuss why Peter was forgiven for that, but Hank hasn’t been forgiven for hitting Janet.

I feel bad for the Hank Pym character. It would have been better post incident if Marvel stuck to one track with Hank, kept him as a hero or a villain instead of yo-yoing him between the two. In Avengers Academy, Avengers A.I., and the last Ant-man mini he's owning it and giving a real go at being a hero. But he's the bad guy in most of his appearances and it sucks because it feels like mental conditions are being demonized. I definitely don't want him and Janet to reunite but I do want him to have success and happiness while managing his conditions.

Even as a little kid (1981?) I was like "what are they doing?". The Avengers had just gotten back together with a good lineup, and then they had to go mess it up. I liked Yellowjacket, and the making of him into a villain was really forced, and the character has really never recovered since.

I think it's important to remember the story frames the slap as something bad. I've never seen any version of the event in which it's justified or excused (they even make a point to establish Hank wasn't a skrull then, it was all him). You shouldn't feel bad for liking a character that did a bad thing and that was treated as a bad thing.

As messed up as this is, it's nothing compared to some of the other shit that the other Marvel Heroes pulled in their lives. I mean murder, world domination, brainwashing, mass arrests, etc. The comics even mention compared to all the bullshit the heroes have done over the years, Hank smacking Jan while suffering from a mental breakdown is actually quaint in comparison.

Plenty of people still like YJ Miss Martian, and she tried to alter Connor's memory of being angry about the fact that she was frying villains brains.

It SHOULD happen, a story like this should be told, but the way Marvel choose to go afterwards really did no favors to Hank. They never improve upon him, they just... let him fester, to actively making him worse. It's been nearly a decade, and he's STILL Pymtron, meanwhile MCU Hank is doing fine, and other Hank's in media are either completely fine, Yellowjacket (poor EMH Hank), or dead, like Ultimate Avengers movie Hank... that's possibly the best outcome for a Ultimate Hank, because WOOF.

Hank Pym, though, had mental health problems -- some of which were brought on by his size-changing powers -- some of which were of his own self-doubt. But he was not a serial abuser -- there is a huge difference between someone having a breakdown -- and someone constantly abusing/bullying a spouse. Writers such as Stern, Englehart, and Busiek move the character forward -- only to have guys like Bendis and Millar undo it (though Millar was writing the Ultimate version -- still, it didn't help matters).

There have been several stories that dealt with the consequences, good ones even, but this panel seems like one that will always haunt Hank until the end.

You are right - this DID ruin Ant-Man. He was a hero to me as a comic-reading kid. I loved that he was a scientist & a thinker, I liked the team-up with the Wasp but the domestic violence & abuse ended him as a hero.He's never redeemed himself since. It was even worse in the Ultimates.

Could you talk about Carol Danvers? From her start as being the Lois Lane to Marveel then getting his powers then Rogue stealing some of hers. Then that huge fiasco of her being mind whammyed into giving birth to her own son who kidnaps her? So much to unpack (I hope they never do it all on film.)

I’ve always loved how every other characters turns evil and are forgiven Because it’s was the phoenix force or chaos magic taken over or it’s not really batman zur en arrh is to blame or the lazarus pit turned them evil it’s no there fault or caps only a nazi because of someone else’s time travel (like basically every character has turned evil but there’s an excuse which takes away the blame) but when Hank turns evil and then says it was him but instead yellow jacket everyone still holds him responsible and makes out like yellow jacket isn’t an excuse. Like it’s kind of comical like image being Hank you tried explain it wasn’t you but the yellow jacket personally and everyone is like “no Hank it was you, you have to live with your actions “ then the next week you see Jean Grey kill 1000 of people across multiple planets and everyone forgives her and says “it’s not your fault Jean the evil space cloud took over your body and maybe you do it” and then the next week captain America becomes a nazi or professor x goes insane or iron man does something dumb and they are all forgiven. Like that should be enough to turn Hank into a supervillain because what the hell is this double standard

People don't talk about how Yellow Jacket & Wasp's relationship directly influenced The Comedian & Silk Spectre's arc in Alan Moore's Watchmen. I think this storyline is one of the most critical in the history of Marvel Comics (right up there with Bruce Banner's relationship with his father & Tony Stark's relationship with alcohol), but I get the controversy. Kinda like when Dan Slott casually revealed that Starfox was a rapist, it forever taints the character(in the eyes of some). Personally, I find it a fascinating time capsule of social mores in transition. Abuse, whether verbal, sexual or physical, was something often seen, but not commented on - at all - which helps perpetually normalize it(in 1987 there was the famous [some would say infamous] Barbara Walters interview with Sean Connery {where she brought up a 1965 playboy interview} where he expressed similar sentiments towards domestic abuse), so spending issues focusing on how wrong it is is crucial. Plus it continues the (understated) theme of how many superheroes often have the same psychological trajectory as supervillains, the simply choose not to let their worst mistakes define them. IMHO, The Maker(aka the Ultimate Universe's Reed Richards) should've been revealed as the evil Ultimate Hank Pym.

13:09 It never occurred to me to look at Hank in this manner, although if you go by Ulton's personality (it was based on Hank's mental make up) it seems to make sense to a degree. Hank Pym had unresolved issues that eventually broke out and broke him.

The problem is, some creative teams want to redeem him and some want to have him live with it. Like Kurt Busiek has him beat Ultron once and for all and then Rick Remender gives him planet sized Ultron guilt and kills him off. They even had a chance to undo The Slap after Secret Invasion but they didn’t want to retcon it away. At least he’s not Ultimate Hank Pym.

People forget that this was Hank at his lowest point. He felt inadequette as an aveneger, been on and off the team, created a robot that nearly killed everybody in the world and never truly mentally recovered. What Hank did was horrible, but this was a mental breakdown and was him at his lowest point. This isn't like Tony durring Civil War where he just had a different outlook on things or Carol who was full mad on power and consequentialism. And those two actually killed their friends and they were rewarded in their universes. Hank did something wrong, gotten called out, and Jan and others didn't forgive him for many years later. Truth is this did ruined Hank, but people is willing forgive other heroes who even in the right mental state fulled blown have done worse I'm willing to forgive Hank. Plus this is a superhero comic he most likely died horribly later down the line as universal comuppins and got brought back.

I think Hank pym is like a 1 hit wonder in the eyes of some writers. Where he's brought on stage to play the same old song and dance of guilt over the slap, "redeeming himself" and then plays his new songs which aren't nearly as popular. I think Kurt Buseik did hank the best but I question if there are writers working at marvel now that see hank and want to him as a character and not just as a Archetype. Part of me thinks the slap should just get the same silent retcon that Captain Marvel interactions with Marcus got.

Honestly, I think Hank is treated a little unfairly after this issue. They even say that he was all hopped up on "untested gases," and he had a "king-size dose of accident-induced schizophrenia." How many characters have been mind-controlled, or influenced, or otherwise taken over, do something horrific and violent, and are almost immediately forgiven? But not Hank Pym, not for this. This was beyond the pale? And this has been the character's defining character trait since 1981? Spider-Man slugged the shit out of Mary Jane. Remember? No? Reed Richards hit Sue, and his kids. Admittedly, Reed's a dick, but was "abuse" his defining character trait?

This is a great hank pym video I feel like we also need to have this conversation about Scarlet Witch and the "no more mutants" debacle.

Honesty as bad as I feel for Janet in this story, i think this is a seminal piece of the medium in terms of evolving what type of stories that could be told. Should we forget it? No. Its is important.

Kurt Busiek would copy the robot part of this story several years later in "Astro City." The B-list superhero, El Hombre ( an obvious homage to Zorro) tires of being seen as the least popular and least powerful hero in the Honor Guard super team, and so creates a robot to defeat his team, and he plans to rush in and save the day. Of course, it all goes wrong, and he is kicked out of the team. But unlike Hank, he continues his trajectory to the dark side, becoming a villain.

Don't forget Hank gets some redemption a few issues down the line in that he at least becomes more mentally stable, defeats...ugh...Egghead... and accepts responsibility.

It is funny/sad that people remember that one part for Hank but all the moments of other characters get forgotten. How many times has Tony Stark betrayed his friends? The whole Hank/Jan relationship is not a good one. Maybe a marriages where one person was going through a disassociate break is not a solid one.

I see this as a beautiful tragedy. This is a well written culmination of the downfall of a hero. All the things leading up to and after the slap are all well written and horrifying. It's heartbreaking and i think that's what makes it a great story.

The one thing I can’t stand is this instance bleeding into other continuities and interpretations. Fans of the character will be the first to say, there’s a lot more to Hank than this one panel but it’s unfairly characterised iterations that don’t even share the events of the story. A version of Hank, like the MCU, should not just be sidelined because of a story involving a completely different version of the character. Especially since with adaptation you have the choice with what you keep and what you don’t. You can easily rework this arc to have the same impact of Hank becoming unstable and pushing others away, even becoming cruel towards Janet without the slap, if that action is a line that a heroic character can’t come back from. I find it strange to be so definitive about what a character can and cannot be redeemed from. If you showed me the end of the original GOW trilogy, I wouldn’t have thought Kratos could ever even approach a path to redemption… then 2018 and Ragnarok were written tremendously. Kratos did much worse than Hank. I think it would just take a competent writer to rescue Hank from the memory hole due to his bad slap public image.

I think the result we got from the panel was more engaging than if Shooter had gotten what he had intended because the past actions leading up to this and the writing of this scenario support his violent outburst being what it was. If he'd hit her by accident it'd honestly feel like they weren't willing to commit to the story they were telling.

What's weird is that Peter Parker full-on backhanded Mary Jane across a room when she was pregnant (he'd just found out he was the clone and Ben Reilly was the original Peter, and was completely freaking out - she tried to comfort him and he lashed out), yet nobody brings that up nearly as often as Hank hitting his wife. Maybe it's because it happened during the Clone Saga and Marvel hates the Clone Saga (as evidence by their repeatedly humiliating my boy Ben).

I wonder if Jack Kirby, who created both Jan & Hank, ever said anything about this. It's a safe bet that he was royally pissed.

I think the story of Hank has a value, and that he CAN be at least partially redeemed to the point some are willing to work with him again based on him actually doing better. But also stories about him starting to crack under stress again. There are some things a person can never just move past. That will haunt them for the rest of their lives, and this scenario mirrors a very real one. Hank got caught up in the desperation, seeing himself losing this position that he had come to define himself by, and he goes to absurd lengths to try and salvage it but in the end makes everything worse, ruining so much beyond JUST losing his treasured position.

I always thought it was interesting other heroes, including Spider-Man, have hit their spouses, to varying degrees of guilt but Hank has forever been branded wife beater.

Hank's mental health problems go back to TTA 44, the Wasp's first appearance. In this issue, we find out about Hank's first wife Maria, a Hungarian woman who was murdered by the Communists, following which he (quite understandably) has an emotional breakdown. Jim Shooter's explanation does sound a bit suspect. He could quite easily have had that panel redrawn by a staff artist without missing deadline. Stan Lee did it all the time. I read somewhere that Shooter made Gene Colan redraw a number of pages he wasn't satisfied with when Colan was the Avengers artist. Maybe it wasn't in his original script, but I think he liked that panel when he saw it, because it was the logical conclusion of Hank and Jan's relationship, and he decided to go with it. I think it is a very powerful story, and shows that even superheroes are not immune from abusive relationships or mental illness.

I remember buying this issue on the newsstand back in the day. Was quite an issue dealing with things I had never seen in my early teen years.

My opinion on this is that it's low hanging fruit. Yes it happened and there was a big fall out because of it. But now, some 40 years later, it keeps coming up whenever the story calls for some cheap drama surrounding hank and the writer doesn't have any better ammunition. And I believe hank has actually called people out for that at least once (when he and ultron shared a body I think). It shouldn't be forgotten but I'm tired of other characters not letting hank move on with his life.

I got a cursed panel for you. The one where Onslaught showed Jean Grey that Pro X was once in love with her. I mean, did Marvel turn Prof. X into a "kiddy enthusiast" and kind of gloss over it?!

This wasn't just a seminal moment for Hank, who became self aware of his failings, but for Jan too, who after this became much stronger and more confidant as a hero, even going on to lead the Avengers.

Hank is one of my favorite Marvel characters. I've had severe breakdowns that lasted for extended periods and hurt people I cared about. So, I unfortunately relate to it. Not necessarily the physical violence part but the gaslighting and other forms of mental abuse. I also relate to his attempt to take his own life in West Coast Avengers. Same for the fact that he carries with him his guilt, regardless of being forgiven by others. This will always hang over Hank and he'll always wear it as an albatross around his neck, but I wish more readers would move past it.

One bit I liked in Secret Empire was Hank pointing out how many times he saved the world but all anyone remembers is this when every other Avenger has done far worse stuff and forgiven.

Those who argue you should never like this character because of this one action are probably coming from it from a trauma-based type of experience. I think it gave the character a real grounding in real life just like Tony Stark's alcoholism. I believe it would have been really good if they showed him struggling with these issues because of people within the comic books talking behind his back, judging him, even after he'd get help. It would really drive home a great redemption story, but show how people will sometimes continue to judge you for one mistake you did in your past. This is really a missed opportunity, they could even do character development where he continues to go to therapy and anger management or visit the trauma he himself went through. That would be a great thing to even spread education on how behavior like that can be generational and the importance of reaching out for help.

I feel like hank’s struggle with his mental health and the things he did add the most depth to his character we have gotten out of marvel.

As someone who admittedly isn't a huge Avengers person but can't avoid this panel as someone just in general comic circles, I have complicated feelings about this. I think it's an interesting story to see a member of the Avengers not be this paragon of virtue and instead be presented as an abuser. Whether or not it was meant to be as brutal a hit as presented on the page, and like you said this is a pattern of behavior being built on over several issues, it is a really fascinating and uncomfortably real take. I also think Hank as a less popular character has less of a chance to shake a moment like this off bc besides creating Ultron there's not really a lot of definitive Hank Pym moments for one to think back to. Spider-Man in the heat of the moment slapped a pregnant MJ during the Clone Saga, but that (like a lot of the Clone Saga, let's be honest) is just considered by many to be better forgotten, and it's way easier to memory hole when you think of all the other iconic Spider-Man moments that can "cover it up" as it were. So to me, fair or not, this makes Hank a more interesting character, but again I'm someone with only a so-so knowledge of the Avengers. The other side of that coin is I can't imagine how much it must suck to be a Hank Pym fan and a handful of issues has irrevocably colored the perception of the character in the stories and the real world. That's a real bummer and I can totally see the desire to just move on from the moment and have their hero back. Idk if this has made any sense but tldr I think abuser Hank is interesting but totally empathize with fans who are stuck with this being the status quo of one of their faves seemingly forever.

there needs to be a hank pym retrospective...

2:00 The way Jan is written in this era is just painful to read sometimes. "I'm such a *dumbbell!* It's a good thing I found you to think *for* me, darling!" Barf

All Hanks go crazy in Marvel. More importantly, why was he all doubled cheeked up in that first frame? Nightwing who?

Thing about how realistically it's portrayed is, the page right before the slap, Hank demonstrates Sal's power by having it pick up Jan in its giant metal claw, with Janet even saying that it's hurting them. And later, Hank has Sal pummel all of the Avengers, including Jan. But since that violence was done via giant robot, no one cares.

A lot of superheroes have done plenty of morally questionable or unheroic things over the years. But again, they are often much more grandiose and fantastical. Making it easier to look past the quandaries they may raise. Things like Quicksilver having reality altered or Namor blowing up an entire populated planet. While there's usually plenty of fallout and stories to explore, the characters eventually come back around to that point where they're generally accepted again. Tony Stark is pretty much the poster boy for this. Manipulation, war profiteering, kidnapping, torture, mind alteration en masse, murder. And whenever it does become a problem, they'll bend over backwards for a way to absolve him. Like resetting his memory back to pre-Civil War. In cases like this however, it feels so visceral and real that any attempt to undo it would just cheapen the moment. Whether you think it should have happened in the first place or not, there's no denying it carried weight. It hangs over your head whenever you see Hank because it hangs over his head too. It's something he has to live with. Though he has moved past it, even made peace with Janet, it will forever be a part of both characters' histories. Which makes both characters feel more multifaceted than any retcon ever will.

This was a time when characters would go through some very dark things, like Tony becoming an alcoholic (and later Ms. Marvel). It shows you that harming yourself can be forgiven much easier than harming others; this is why so many people hate Spider-Man's writers, haha!

"It wasnt even supposed to be a slap, I was just shooing her away!" "Yeah and you shooed away your career along with it."

Despite the seriousness of domestic abuse, I have to give Marvel credit (although it may not have been intentional on.their part) for this having a lasting effect on hank and Janet's relationship. Their relationship never completely recovered after this. Too often comics have HUGE moments that are practically forgotten after a couple issues. Moments should have consequences (good and/or bad) and Marvel's crossover event fetish is prime reason why this never happens.

20:26 I see you using that Ultimate Hank and Jan panel. Perhaps we'll get a sequel to this video? (For the record, I think Mark Millar's take really holds up, despite being incredibly uncomfortable, difficult to get through, and just downright unpleasant in places.) The original definitely threw me for a loop when I was looking into the history of the Avengers and the JLA as big flagship teams. I wondered why it was that the Avengers let a "wife-beater" into their team and the JLA didn't. And it was much more visible to me than the whole "Marcus" story with Ms. Marvel, which only exists as a weird bit of trivia. I'd say the closest the Justice League ever came to a disaster like this was the Identity Crisis story, but even then, that seemed more like a scandal for the writers and editors than for the characters themselves. Great video, Sasha! Loved the wig!

The slap panel is the logical culmination of Pym's insecurities. He was abusive towards Janet for AGES & no one ever called him on it. The storyline is unfortunately so true to life, especially juxtaposed w the often absurd plots that surrounded it. "High value men" who abuse their partners are all too often given a pass for their reprehensible behavior and this plot addressed it in a really daring way for the time.

Hank Pym, suffering from mental illness slaps Janet once and is a Pariah. 'Noble' Reed Richards has slapped Sue Storm at least 3 times to my knowledge, and nobody remembers it because Sue was deranged or under mental control. Double standard a bit?

I think what bugs me about this whole thing is that the actual story surrounding it is one of Hank deteriorating to a mental breaking point, but that context is always lost in favor of just this one panel so that ends up making the whole story that Hank is abusive. "Strange chemicals altering Hank's brain" is a more fantastical comic thing than just pure abuse that he could've come back from. Peter hit MJ in another story, and Reed was abusive to Sue verbally and physically many times in early stories, but they aren't defined by it like Hank. I think the real nail in the coffin was the dark and edgy Ultimate universe taking this and running with it, just making Hank a cartoonishly evil abuser and cementing that as his legacy. It's really awful to see him be used just to show him suffering now. Like when we had a few pages of him saving people and being congratulated only to reveal it was his dying hallucinatory dreams as he was killed for good (I mean, as "for good" as comics can get). Fun fact: He's also not the only Hank Marvel has ruined, but that's a totally different story.

What’s funny is ULTRON has a soft spot for Jan (WASP) and one could argue he wouldn’t even strike her in that fashion LOL!

Pym particles. Bit of a triumph! This storyline is one I use to demonstrate that comics can and should reflect real life. Everyone makes mistakes, some are colossal and devastating. Jan forgave Hank. Why cant I? When Jan died, he took on her Wasp identity. To hate is easy and speaks of someone who has never made such a grave error or had such an act forced upon them by someone they love. Life is more complicated than that. To err is human, to forgive, divine.

I get why, but it still strikes me as funny that Hank slapping his wife is seen as a bigger deal than building a GIANT KILLER ROBOT to attack his friends.

Angry Hank voice is hilarious. I get the event is sh!!+¥ of him. But that doesn’t take away from Sasha’s fantastic voice acting. 😹

Jan does come off as incredibly supportive *in this issue* -- but in several previous issues and runs she's been incredibly toxic. She first latches onto Hank as a substitute father figure, then quickly romantic interest, when her father dies. This is somewhat understandable: she had been the sheltered daughter of a rich inventor, suddenly thrown from a stable, paternally-guided life into a battle with an alien. That'll rock anyone's world. However, as her father was a friend of their neighbor Hank, she knew that he was still in mourning for his deceased wife, who had been abducted by the secret police when she visited her family in (if I recall correctly) communist Hungary (I'm sure the sliding Marvel timescale required a retcon of what country it was to a fictional one at some point). She died under torture, as the government thought she was privy to American classified scientific advances due to being married to Pym (it was later revealed that they'd lied to Pym about the death and she actually died years later, which didn't improve his already shaky mental health when he found out). She also likely would have been aware of his swings from excited and vivacious to secluded and withdrawn (she might not have known it was bipolar disorder at the time, but as her education, exposure to an array of genius teammates, and intimate knowledge of Hank's moods expanded, it seems hard to believe she *never* had a clue as to how mentally fragile he was). That didn't stop her from flirting with him, or becoming romantically involved with him. Despite his apparent lack of interest and desire to treat her as a crime-fighting partner only, she eventually won him over. Which if the genders were reversed would *not* really resonate very well as a story, frankly. Not sure if it does without the genders being reversed either. When the Avengers are formed, she proceeds to flirt with or comment about the attractiveness of every male member except the Hulk (who had an intellect level barely above childlike at the time, though he was forming complete sentences -- about halfway between Grey Hulk and Savage "Leave Hulk Alone!" Hulk) and teenage Rick Jones. This was apparently a ploy to manipulate Hank into being jealous and possessive, which she seemed to think would indicate (and strengthen) his love for her. Again, fairly toxic behavior. Hank repeatedly over the years expresses his desire to retire from being a superhero and return to laboratory science, citing the stress, the fact that he doesn't feel cut out for battle situations, and the physically and psychologically damaging effects of using his powers (he's gotten stuck at various giant sizes, including one occasion when he grew so large it induced a heart attack, and once had a psychotic break causing him to believe he was a villain who had killed Hank Pym). Janet always resisted and tried to maneuver him back to rejoining the Avengers because *she* enjoyed the adventure and fame that came with being a superhero. The prize-winner was that she married him when she knew he wasn't mentally sound. During the psychotic break (caused by exposure to chemicals he was working with in an effort to stabilize his powers so that he could continue being an Avenger without potentially killing himself), he proclaimed that he was the powerful villain Yellowjacket who had killed the weak Hank Pym and was going to claim his due prize, Janet van Dyne. He was wearing a costume none of the other Avengers had seen before, but Janet recognized him (the old "I've seen you naked, did you think I wouldn't recognize you because I couldn't see your cheekbones?" trick). She allowed a wedding to take place (supposedly to placate the villain and allow him to be captured) and then revealed that she had known it was really Hank and had chosen to marry him while *he* didn't know he was Hank because she *was sure he wouldn't ever have asked her* otherwise. FFS. Hank let the marriage stand, which was awfully damned generous under the circumstances. But yeah, the backhand slap was never written in the script for the episode, it was an independent decision the artist made to "jazz up" the action in the scene. It is now canon in the comics, though, and the character Pym described the moment as "the single greatest regret in my life" -- and this is the guy who built the genocidal AI Ultron. So, yeah, it haunts him.

Yeah, it absolutely needs to keep coming up. But also, that makes moments where they're reconciled all the more uncomfortable. It's a pivot point.... one you can't walk back and can only deal with in the right way moving forward. But at least it's not Avengers #200.

Long time viewer, first time commenter. Absolutely adore your content; I have never owned a comic in my life so I don't know how I ended up on this side of RU-vid but I'm so glad I did. Just wanted to tell you how much I am enjoying this particular Cursed Panels playlist and to keep the hits coming (yet another assault pun)

I do like Hank Pym, but I don't think this panel or story should have been forgotten. This should be something that needs to be atoned for. I think it's also important that is depicted including the fallout because it's important for people to see abuse is a big deal that even powerful people have to deal with and that it's ok to walk away from it.

Character assassination is a very real thing. It is like in X-Factor when Cyclops marries Madeline because she looked like his dead ex, had a child with her and then abandoned his family when said ex showed up again, after admitting he only married her because she looked like Jean Grey. No ammount of retcons will ever make me respect this character again.

Sorry if I get long winded here but I'm old. I actually bought these issues off the newsstand from my local drug store. Issue 212 is literally the first comic book I ever read. So when I was 9 and read this story I just thought Hank was mean to Janet. He acted like a child who wasn't getting his way and lashed out at his closest friend. He didn't mean for it to happen but bad things happen when you do bad things. The next time I read these I was in college, so early 20s ish. I had filled in some gaps in my Avengers run, like issue 214, and wanted to re-read my earliest comics. I then knew more about Hanks past and where his story went from here so I saw Hank as a person with mental problems and probably needing therapy. But not a bad person, just someone who needed help. The overarching story here was the fall and eventual redemption of Hank Pym. Everyone remembers this panel from his fall, even though it was not the beginning of his fall, but no one seems to remember his redemption by single handedly defeating Egghead's Masters of Evil team as Hank Pym and not a costumed hero at all. His time in the early days of the West Coast Avengers as their civilian science advisor should be more remembered because that was Hank after working through his personal demons. Today when I read it as a 51 year old I can see the domestic abuse clearly. Where you are in life influences how you read this. The more life experience you have gives you more clarity to see the things you couldn't see before. But Hank moved on from this, even Janet forgave him. The comics world needs to move on from this single act. Hank is flawed but not evil.

Marvel could of fixed this with a redcon with Hank by saying it was a pym particle side effect that messed up Hanks mental stability with a redeem arch

I think it is a lucky mistake for it to be drawn as it had been. I always think of this story with Iron Man's alcoholism or Speedy's heroin addiction. It presented a real problem that comics don't usually touch on. And they could have retconned it out of existence. During Secret InvasionHank was asked if it was really a Skrull impersonating him when he hit Jan and, to his credit, Hank owned it and didn't try to use the Secret Invasion as a convenient alibi. Also, Pym Particles are a much greater research result than Ultron.

This Hank hitting Janet was awful as was Tony Stark being an alcoholic. I know that the comics were technically for male "kids". I wonder if it was a strong message to young men growing up. Messages like: "Don't be abusive to your spouse." or "Alcohol will ruin your life." It's funny nowadays the market for the Marvel films is for a male action loving audience but it also touched on topics like these.

Isn't inventing Ultron, a homicidal android with the desire and capacity to wipe out life on the entire planet at least just as bad, if not worse, than hitting Janet?

There’s an episode of Disney’s Marvel What If where Hank Pym kills all of the Avengers and I think that perfectly sums up the trajectory of his character over the decades since that panel. He’ll always have the shadow of a villain over him. He’ll likely never get a cartoon, was skipped over in the films, never truly be appreciated as a hero.

The problem with boldly driving Hank (or other characters) insane is, it breaks them. That might not be so bad if they were characters owned by a single writer who limited them to a fixed catalog of stories, but in ongoing serial publication where characters are shared among creators, creators have an obligation to return characters in good repair. If I were Editor In Chief, I would make it a goal to repair characters who had been damaged by bad (?) writing. Let's go with the simplest possibility for Hank: it was a Skrull, and the Pym particles caused him to lose his Skrull marbles. There, Hank's off the hook. Is that a lazy cop-out? You're goddamn right it is, and I'm proud of it. Quit complaining or I'll come up with something even lazier. I'll tell you another one I'd like to fix, over at DC: John Stewart and the planet Xanshi. "Cosmic Odyssey" was written such that John was out of character, and the bomb situation on Xanshi was such that John was destined to fail to save Xanshi. That's been hanging over John's head ever since. Now that John has god-like powers, I'd like him to have a god-like insight: the planet Xanshi was destined to explode for reasons - it was somehow necessary - but John is now in a position to go back and save the people of Xanshi, maybe teleport them all over to Mogo. Maybe John couldn't stop the cosmically inevitable, but he was able to save people of Xanshi, even if it took 35 years.

Hank...I guess they wanted to do a complex story with the character, but didn't realize how close to reality they would end up...and it has been difficult to use Pym since. I did a video a year back about characters who would end up characterized by a single, terrible moment in their history, with Hank Pym getting a segment. While doing research, I took note of events that occurred afterward, but I didn't know about Hank destroying the dress or the belittlement out of jealousy that took place immediately before the incident. I may have done a few things differently if I had known. You can do as much research as you want, but there really is no substitute for actually reading the material and drawing conclusions, I guess.