This was such a classic low stakes scenario and such a great example to learn and get better. These are the scenarios, where value is so Important, he would've made between $30-$70 more and that starts adding up in similar hands/scenarios during a session, especially a long/longer one. Thank you Bart!
Leo Rubio the theory is you have to check flushes and straights here but bet trips and full houses in the hero spots but when he bets 35$ you have to raise here I’m surprise Bart didn’t put aj in the equation on the river I think he could have bet 35$ with aj too
Maxime Dumontier with it being low stakes then you are getting called by AK possibly AQ any big flush draw and any flush draw with Jd. Now I wouldn’t say jam but a 3 bet isn’t out of the equation with such a textured board.
@@jamesmulrey6061 another thing I'd want to know is how villain plays. Does he just make these small bets all the time disregarding pot size? Many do. I would have bet/folded which Bart says you don't want to do lol. In this scenario I also call. It's so player-dependent at low levels. And heads up? Bonus!
You can tell it’s a great call when Bart sits back in the chair and looks like he is talking to an old friend and not at work. Bart in his prime must have been tough to deal with on the tables. Great show Bart, top notch analysis as usual.
When he tanks for 90 seconds on the turn before calling half pot, it means he's hollywooding with something pretty good he has no intention of folding. He did call a flop raise. He might check back some rivers, but on the turn I would think I'm being trapped, and should check every river.
That's kind of my thought process as well, but just in this situation particularly because of the idiot rolling his eyes and leaving/villains reaction to that
The amazing part of this video for me personally, was at the end when Bart was calculating combos of how many weaker hands would bet here, I specifically thought that he didn't include 9Ts and 89s. I loved how we get walked through the logical process of the hand. It's spot on, you see spots like this all the time in the low stakes. Really great vid Bart! 👍
This guy was open to suggestion and a gentleman but I wouldn't call Bart only to push my narrative. The takeaway here is Bart explained why a boat is so unlikely and I think he is right. Next time you can bet or bet/fold (stack depth dependant) the river in this spot. Nice one Bart.
How do you call a reraise on the flop with bottom pair 8? There is a reason he never considered 8’s as a possibility as he assumed your opponent was mentally sound.
um he beats a ton of flush draws that will give up on the turn or river, like what the caller had. He isn't x/r an ace unless its AJ or A8. There are tons of flush draws and some backdors the caller could have
@@amalguptan6716 a solid back door flush that was not discussed was T9cc. OESD on the flop, pick up flush draw on the turn, and then drill the flush on the river. My 1/2 game has people showing up on the river with a decent amount of bad backdoor combos. If you let them see the turn for cheap, and they pick up equity, it can be difficult to get them to fold, because they know if they hit their flush, they’re likely going to scoop the pot. The situation doesn’t play out flush over flush often enough to account for often.
Thing is, you have so many possible combos with only a HJ raise preflop. Literally, he could have anything. The $5 bet was really weird as I guess that it's an attempt to pot control with a bottom pair and maybe get you to fold if you completely missed the flop. But essentially it's so small, that it's just a check if you got any piece of the flop
I think your videos have been helping me figure out things mentally that I'm doing wrong as of late. I level myself into making too many careless mistakes, miss value, and generally over-think just about every situation. Might as well be playing with my cards face up.
Bart, one of the reasons I like watching your videos, is that these scenarios show just how much poker coaches often mis-understand as well as show where the callers can learn to play more exploitatively. When I hear you make statements like "x player is never going to bet with anything below AK+ here", I have to give a little chuckle. I play regularly across four or five cardrooms in the Bay Area, CA. I see formations like this all the time where villains in position will bet rivers with hands like A 10 os, A Q, K Q os (busted str8/rivered 2nd pair), or hands like missed draws 10 9s. Obviously some of those holdings are more polarized situations so you'd see a river bet closer to 80% pot, but experienced players know that math well. Run of the mill aggrofish will bet hands like AQ here just thinking they are good or that they're beating a chop, and will mis-size their bets because they aren't good players. Happens all the time. And I would add, that just because a caller says that someone is a good player, that's a subjective thing. It's more helpful to know if the villain is a profitable reg or not. So maybe one of the things that would help inform your videos is asking the callers whether or not the villain(s) is a reg/grinder and is profitable, rather than just asking if they are "good". That then makes your explanations of "villain would never to x in this spot unless he/she had y hand or better" more contextualized. Great analysis overall though. I do agree, that betting out on these rivers in spots like this is where a lot of regs make profit where non-regs don't.
Bart you mentioned if you bet here on the river you can’t fold. I’m trying to think of natural bluffs and there aren’t any. Would you call because V could be overvaluing a trips or AK hand? Thank you 😊
To me a small bet in this spot (from a competent player) is a lot scarier than a big one. Anything $60 or below feels to small to be a bluff. I'm still never folding but I feel better calling $100 in that spot.
Matthew Metzger BS doesn’t really matter as still no point in raising as V won’t call with a thin value hand,if you think it’s a sign of strength then no point raising either
Thin value implies that your hand is weak but you're still betting. Villain had trips and basically thought he had the nuts, he was putting as pure value hoping to get called.
@@codmott286 Exactly - is thin value being used to describe "a small amount" of value Matthew. Thin value means marginal hand you assume to be likely better than your opponents hand.
In just my last 2 sessions alone (.50/$1) I have made over $200 by just value betting the river. One of the most profitable moves I have added to my game.
The move has been known by the best players since poker was invented- always have the best hand when the betting is done. That makes the most money playing ANY form of card game.
I thought for sure hero had to be ahead because of the tanking on the flop and the turn. What hand could he possibly have that would need to think about what to do on the flop that he can’t beat. Maybe the guy is a great actor, or was thinking about whether or no raise a monster, but the way the story was related, I’d be thinking about how to get most money in the pot, because there’s so few hands that have to think that can beat a straight.
I wouldn't be in that spot like bart said, but if I happened to be in that spot, jam river. As what the hell am I trying to improve to, if not the straight, I also feel the $35 check raise, on river is super weak from opponent, apply pressure.
About the river decision it can be a tell to notice the betsizing. Villains riverbet is very small compare to the pot. My thought is that if villain has a hand that has thin value and wants to be called by worse. He bets small like this. And theres also the occasional inducive small riverbet from very capable player offcourse. But in this particular case it was an obvious tell
Summary: everything was fine except for the river play. Hero should have value bet instead of a check. If the stack sizes were right, it is ok to value bet and then fold to a shove. Don't miss your value bets. Bart, your analysis is very constructive, I liked that you went through your though process without information overload, and putting the focus on the most important step that you would do differently: betting on the river. Often it is too much for students to learn and focus on all different options they could do in the hand and it is better to learn step by step, focusing on one point at the time and learn gradually. First preflop play and later something like in this hand about not missing the value bet. Thank you.
So you would have folded to a shove with the way he placed his bets earlier in the hand? Personally I would call the shove, if he has the back door flush or better, so be it.
A player with your mentality is very exploitable. I would be bluffing you off river value bets left and right. By the time you decide to start calling me down, I'd show up with the nuts.
@@davidculhane4388 Not really, I would balance my value bets so that there are planty of those that would call your shove, depending on the stack size. In this case I would probably not fold because we are not that deep and the opponent could shove for value with a weaker hand. Also if you are shoving with a polarized range I would probably call with Q8 faster than with QT, because Q8 blocks more of your nut hands. So I don't know what are you talking when you say my mentality? If you never fold to a shove when value betting that is bad mentality because it is wrong from a theory point and it can also be exploited.
i think you have to bet the turn after taking the lead..and you said he didn't call quickly when you raised the flop, so i doubt he has an ace...maybe villain has KJ or something like that, which is going to fold a lot. there's a lot of better hands that would fold and you have queen high. 30 is too small though, i'd go like 45-50.
I like a $100 polarizing lead on the river. Let him think you’ve got a missed flush draw (which you can represent easily because you missed a flush draw) or a boat. If he’s a thinking player he’ll call with pretty much all his aces thinking you’re polarized.
it's not really a lead at this point since hero has taken control of the hand with the flop x/r and turn bet. It's our initiative now so a river bet is just going for 3 barrels. I think a jam is far more polarizing than betting 100 and leaving 60 behind. So I like either a jam or betting 50 to get looked up by ace rag who thinks he might be chopping.
Before I even heard the outcome I think its a shove on the river not a check 🤦🏻♂️ - you can tell by just this one hand that both these players have plenty of room to continue to improve.....
Derek Tomko Well I think a bet /bet fold could be better. Shoving 235 into 130 mostly only get called by better hands. It could depend on yr villains' image of yr bet sizing. I would bet and if I get jam I wish to find a fold since there r not so much blufding room on the river.
I'm with Peiyong on this one. At 1/2, with a villain who's clearly at least trying to be a thinking player, shove sizing can only result in a game theory disaster.
Peiyong Chen yea bet/folding at lower stakes will save you a lot of money.strange to hear Bart say he never finds much in these spots as in a ton of other videos he says river raises (even turn raises)are extremely under bluffed
Bart was right to eliminate all trip 8 combos, because who is calling a check raise on the flop with bottom pair and at most a K or Q kicker. Bottom pair with no draw, isn't exactly something that you want to call a check raise with. The only thing that the villain had going for him, was that he was in position.
People can have anything at 1-2 breaking down hands dont apply gto theory to these games...they dont know what u are talking about...most call everyhand so where is there range...free range...ughhhh
Villain's bet sizing on the river, tank-calling the turn (including processing the button's hissy-fit), fairly light call of the flop check-raise, and down-betting the flop in the first place all indicate someone whose level is significantly above " _typical 1/2 fish_ "
@@alistairwillock7266 Herocalling a checkraise with bottom pair only makes sense if you put hero on a draw, and if hero is on a draw you should be raising the turn with trips not calling. And on the river if hero has either hit his draw and has you beat, or has absolutely nothing, then why even bet when you can check back? Villain's line is completely nonsensical.
FefeLeVrai hero calling a draw when you have bottom pair is especially bad when your bottom pair is so weak. Even against K2 diamonds or T9 spades you’re basically only flipping because they have a draw plus overcards to your pair. And against a combo draw or pair plus flush draw (eg JT diamonds) you’re getting crushed. But yeah hilariously bad to then spike your miracle 8 on the turn and just flat call.
The most interesting (read weirdest) thing was the flop play with 87. Villain betting 5$ does accomplish what??? And then calling a raise for some indiscernible reason (certainly not EV)!? No wonder Bart did not consider 8x on the river...
Bart, Why wouldn’t he bet A10 or even AQ on the river?? This is a wonderful spot to bluff for villain, as is. Hero can credibly have an Ace and villain may think he’s pushing him off a chop. Just wanted to throw this in there. Needs to be considered.
A Player who called check/r flop with a bottom pair bottomless kicker and with a double bottomless draw - can still make you can’t believe he misplayed the turn?
The villains reluctancy to call the check-raise on the flop would have me believe he has an ace with a weak kicker, JX combo or a lower pocket pair. I wouldn't have put an 8 in his holding so I would've fired again on the turn. He would've probably raised my turn bet. Then I would've tanked and thought about his holdings. Since he was the opening bettor, I would've put him on either JA or a Ax of clubs and thought him holding an 8 would've been unlikely. I would've checked the river and probably folded any river bet. And that's why I still play $1/2, haha.
x/c river. H played hand well. If V had 87h why could not he have 8Jh?...or 67c, 9Tc...etc. With all these hands V would've played the same way he did with 87h. So: No betting the river! If you bet you could easily be bluffed here: He jams, you fold. Or call jam just to realize you lost to a better hand??? Those who preach for bigger river bet... It's easy to be a general after the battle. . H already maximized the revenue in this hand. Am surprised nobody talked about V profile. V is a calling station. If that was a sound player, he would've kicked H out of hand on turn...or shove the river and kick him out there.
Check-raising him on the river seems super thin, especially since you were too scared to lead out there. // Regarding villain's weird min bet on the flop, lately I've been seeing donks do this a bit more online at microstakes with monsters, as a slowplay, hoping to induce a raise or whatever. // Other player at table who was essentially talking about his hole cards after folding should be issued a warning!
Keep in mind that what you know about the players action is based on perception, translation and description. He could have just been annoyed with the $5 bet and how the hand was being played. Maybe he folded 89 or tens. Don't just assume another's perception of something is correct. Every man in history killed his wife if you listen to a woman's perspective. Odd how often people see what they want rather than just sticking to what they actually know. However if we are going to assume meanings. What does the disgust mean? He folded A8, AJ, JJ, QJ, KJ.....he maybe folded AQ. But I think we can start reducing value hands for villain based on hands that might be marginal folds. If we add together the disgusted player and the villain combined with the 8 pairing. Doesn't it make sense the villain believes disgusted player is saying he folded something like J8 or K8, but most likely an 8? If there are two 8s on board, villain has one and disgusted player folded one, what's left for hero? Starts to make the $5 bet make sense from villains perspective. An Ace or Jack, maybe 10s call but many hands might bluff, so bet tiny. It's almost certain hero doesn't have better than a pair here. We can either disregard the disgusted player since we didn't witness it, aren't trying to use the information. Or, we can use it by trying to understand the other players perspectives based upon actions. Humans are flawed and I'm sure no one would want it otherwise. Poker would not be much fun and certainly not profitable if people weren't flawed. Try not to be that player but embrace that player too. He's the one who's going to tilt of his bankroll because he can't control himself. Ask him nicely to be careful about giving information when he's not in or heads up in a hand. But don't hate him or chase him away, move, give up your seat to someone who enjoys players who give information so readily. You're lucky...? That's what made this guy fold? I would try to get lucky anytime this guy was in a pot. Just some thoughts, a different way to deal with things that otherwise might get you off your game. Wish it wouldn't happen but it did, now what?
I'm still looking for which play makes the most $$ myself.... I think it's that we should be raising the flop when the villain raises >25%... looking back he would have folded that 8 with a good checkrasie
So going into this I knew from past vids you sort of miss what your guests say. So I watched, and the guy was very clear, and somehow you missed him several times. Its like im talking to my wife. And hey, no hate. Just saying. 👂🏻👂🏻👂🏻
I don't know why just calling the flop wasn't discussed as a valuable option as he was nicely priced in for his draw. A lot of times we wish we were priced in to make a +EV move then when it's handed to us on a silver platter we think we have to do more and make things complicated. Just my 2 cents.
@@iammojay So your just doing it for image reasons? I guess thats fine if you're playing with the same people all the time and don't want them to label you as a calling station and exploit your 'just' calls on a draw heavy board. I just don't know why it wasn't talked about further since calling the flop is long term gain without any other factors needed. When you check raise you bring in other unknown variables that need to be equated. I'm assuming he is wanting the fold with the check-raise so fold equity is brought in. The opponent players style has to then be brought in. The flop call is priced in to be long term profit if everyone was a monkey. How does the math work that the check-raise will be? I'm not asking to be a smart ass I'm asking cause I want to know. EDIT: The check raise is not easy to figure out no? Thats because there are going to be unknown variables in the equation. Variables that a new player will not know how to deal with. Isn't this information geared towards new players to learn how to play profitably? Telling someone that check-raise here will be the best profitable outcome is like giving a kid a jump-rump before he knows how to walk. Check raising here is absolutely CATOSTROPHIC for someone twinging on being a coin flip away from being in the positive or negative. And yes I was kind of being a smart ass cause this is terrible advice to give a tweener. Hey you got 100K profit and people know you sure check raise that bitch. But a new player that is struggling just call the fucking flop dude and you will profit over the long haul on this call. Or don't I could care less. I don't even know why I bothered to reply.
@@josheisert8380 Just my guess (I'm not a pro). With a draw this big you are going for stacks. It'd be a shame to hit your hand and win a tiny pot. If he folds to the raise, then he was just stabbing anyway and you've lost nothing. If he re-raises, you've gained a ton of information and your decisions moving forward are simpler. Finally, anytime you can check raise a flop profitably, you are adding to your image as a player that is frustrating and difficult to play against, which makes your opponents more likely to make mistakes against you in the future. People talk about establishing ranges, which I agree doesn't always make sense in small stakes, but cultivating an image in the short term as a player who's capable of being aggressive and putting people in tough situations pays off.
@@edb7742 Raising on the river at low stakes is almost never a bluff, so when you are raised, they always have it and you should only call with the top of your range.
@@edb7742 yeah. It basicly means that you can go for value in many spots, if you have the discipline to fold strong hands to a raise. Otherwise you burn your money away. There are some crazy player types, that you have to call down, but I have played bet/folded with high overpairs on the flop in a single raised heads up pot in position against the correct opponent
Kit Billion exactly,I called a few river raises the last week due to blocking value/unblocking bluffs/pot odds/the boards favours my range/Vs line didn’t make sense.Everytime I was beat, Unless I specifically know a guy is capable of rivervraise bluffs I’m folding all the time now,sure I might get bluffed a small percentage of the time but overall I’ll save cash
Is he betting 5 with a set? Yes ofc. he would. Small bet is also slow playing and opens for a steal from opponent. Which you call and can now tjeck turn letting opponent fire one more time. On the river there is only one play for the hero and that is tjeck, call. Why is this even being discussed?
In such low stakes its hard to play poker.. People can do anything... in worse case scenario they loose 200$? Would be a lot different play if they wore about to loose 2000$. 200$ doesn’t have enough value for poker.
It seems simple but he's live streaming these calls so there's a lot more going on then him just talking to one person. He probably has a que of callers, live messages coming in and various audio levels to look at. Not to mention the audio on his headset might not be as clear as what we hear.
Bart luv the videos...admire the infinite amount of patience you must have for callers because frankly it must be difficult to counsel players specially at this level; that are less than competent when it comes to ranges and factors in hands that really have no bearing on the decisions they've made. Bsafe out there in quarantine land wash those hands both literally and figuratively lol...Bgood
The guy who rolled his eyes and walked out of the room after the turn is a monumental douche. If this hero had lost the hand because of that idiot giving away that he had an 8, he would have every right to be furious. The type of behavior should get people tossed from poker rooms because it effects the outcome of the hand.
Man my 1st time hearing this and i knew the guy had tripss...u just lost a fan..live n learn...ill be checking u out in the near future though ....good luck homie
A Player who called check/r flop with a bottom pair bottomless kicker and with a double bottomless draw - can still make you can’t believe he misplayed the turn?
