balancing new pve content is gonna be very hard, the diluvian is a bad example of balanced content imo, since you need a good pve build to stand a chance. But the thing is there will always be a pve meta as fundamentally pvp and pve are different. I do agree there should be a way to balance pve content for pvp builds, but i dont think that should come at the downside of pve players not having fun. The only thing i hard disagree with is pve builds being more mindless. while thats true for the most part no one can hop on a god slayer or layer 2 speedrun build and operate at anywhere near 100% Edit: the way i see it, pvp players should be able to do pve stuff with enough skill but if they want to efficiently do something then they should invest the time into making a build
Yes, but pvp players should still be able to grind the same shits that pve players do. Less efficiently, but they should still be able to accomplish that.
I dont think efficiency should derive from a person’s build, it should derive from their ability to complete said event or boss because of their skill or understanding of a boss. At the moment most bosses are minmaxxed with builds to the point of killing them in around 30 seconds or so. And bosses don’t have enough skill expression where its a matter of skill fighting these bosses that determines your speed in killing them, its quite literally that PvE builds makes the entire boss fight magnitudes shorter than fighting it with a PvP build. Take a look at any of these chaser/duke/ferryman PvE builds for example, they shouldn’t be rewarded with the ability to blitz the boss because they chose specifics mantras💀 . In those cases they rarely even have to fight the boss for more than a couple seconds.
If you want an example, examine this video: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-x18ZL0Ec95s.htmlsi=LJ5DcUCmPm2oW6PJ This player being able to beat the boss in a minute and 30 seconds is based on his understanding of how this boss attacks, while getting those precise parry timings down alongside when to use his heavy attacks. His build aids in this process but isn’t the reason he can clear this boss so quickly, it’s the player’s understanding and practice of this method that makes it so quick. Compare this to Deep and you can’t find any examples close to this for bosses to showcase skill expression on this level, and really only the preparation of a build can unfortunately lead to you having a much much faster fight.
@@Agamatsu there isn't many cases where things are an autowin, with the exception of ferryman where if you can parry 1 attack on a certain build you autowin, while efficiency is partly derived from a build its not really something you can fix without nerfing alot of stuff, there is still a ton of speed and attack power granted to someone from truly understanding how a build works. if you want examples just look at no major glitches runs for layer 2, sure they are using a really strong pve build but they need to know all the strats to allow the build to be able to clear chaser in 3 minutes. thats something that can take weeks to master. i am not opposed to making knowing the boss more rewarding but outside of the diluvian and hellmode, where you just stat check, there is skill involved in timing things perfectly
The main problem with Deepwoken is the accessibility of pvp compared to pve. One major example of this would be the chime skulls. This system is by far the worst game mechanic I have ever seen when it comes to online games. Why would players go out of their way to learn pvp if it means going into the 1v1 game-mode only to have 3 attempts PER DAY just to get sent to the depths. If the devs just straight up remove or added a non-ranked gamemode in chime which removes the skull system, this would most likely motivate pve players to try making new builds in order to experience what this game has to offer when it comes to pvp. It's such a shame how so much content deepwoken has to show is then wasted because new players and/or pve centered players never try learning how to make pvp builds as the punishment for losing is too harsh.
@@4xmoit means make learning and practicing pvp less risky so that the pve players who typically only pve because it’s less risky would be willing to try it and improve on their pvp skills
they have to add a risk factor to chime of conflict, else people will simply be on it all day even more so than they do now and the overworld would be dead if somebody wants to get better at pvp they can simply just spar with their friends, and if they have none then just join a guild
chat hear me out; new boss/pve content like you were talking about, but, hear me out on this one, it ***doesn't have the monster attribute*** so it's unaffected by DvM, but it could still be like a monster or whatever and it's still affected by PvE buffs like power level then, so it isn't ridiculously hard for PvP players, they nerf what the health would've been and make it lower, so it's pretty much as difficult on a PvE build as it is on a PvP build.
In any other game there is a clear divide on PVP and PVE there is pvp gear and then there is PVP gear thats how all mmos work so what is this man chatting about you gotta get better to get better
Best pve rework NEEDED especially for PVP people that are required to get like an oath and lean over for help for the pve community because they lack the damage and stuff like that. Thank you agamatsu
You mustve misunderstood the video, the idea is to buff PvP builds in PvE while also allowing PvE builds to do much better in PvP and to give them a fighting chance
@@Agamatsuit’s quite hard to do that honestly tho, maybe a handicap for player m1’s damage output to be increased if their m1 is lower than a certain amount? I dont really see how to close the gap on pvp and pve build
Aga is right, we cannot have OP pve builds if the devs are gonna optimize pve content around those builds. Pve should be a mechanic that anyone can do with their maxed build without being put at a huge disadvantage. Remove DvM, nerf monster HP, scale light/med/heavy to do the same DPS and we are golden. These changes should’ve came way sooner.
PvE builds should be made to get around the map quick, have better survivability against mobs and maybe even support allies. But the TTK on mobs should remain roughly the same for any build, and any wep class. Unless of course PvE players wanna use certain mantras and talents that give them a slight edge mechanically.
@@woundead3232I think you slightly misunderstood what aga mean, I don’t think he meant that heavy, light and med should all be at the same level. I think what he meant is that pvp builds (light, med) should be able to farm just as efficiently as a pve build, assuming they are skilled and really know the stuff they’re fighting. But pve builds can do it just as efficiently with less skill. I don’t think he meant that choosing heavy for pve should be the same as choosing light
@@thecomet653 I didn’t say each should be at the same level, I said the DPS of each weapon should be the same against mobs. So 10 seconds of damaging etherion with a heavy weapon would be the same as 10 seconds damaging etherion with a dagger. It should not take 5 cycles to defeat etherion if you aren’t running heavy.
Bruh the only thing that they have to fix IS TO SEND YOU INTO DUNGEONS WITH THE RIGHT SERVERS, I AINT OUT HERE FIGHTING ETHIRON ON CALI SERVERS AND IT TAKES 20 YEARS TO EVEN FIND A GOOD SERVER
Why don't they make it so mobs can have DVM resistance or certain bosses having a higher resistance to DVM like 50% resistance to it so like if the player has 40% dvm, they would only get a 20% dvm buff against the boss
I need everyone to explain to me in detail why the PvE dragon king and PvP joe builds NEED to have such a massive gap. DVM absolutely contributes to efficiency, 70% DVM on a PvE dragon king takes Ethiron from 40 hits to 24, it's just barely off from a 50/50 damage difference, the rest comes from the build, mantras, and damage multipliers. Why do we NEED this massive gap, I speak as a primarily PvE player, there should be no reason why PvP builds SHOULDN'T be put on the same level of efficiency as dragon king PvE builds. I've been playing a lot of Soulsborne recently and I main an antspur rapier in elden ring rn, horrific poise damage, rarely staggers bosses, I'm only rl94 with most of my stats in vigor, stamina, and faith for incantations, but my understanding of how the enemies work is what carries my efficiency in fights, not purely stats. That's what Deepwoken *used* to aim to be, skill oriented, but the rant for how it feels like mage spam is rewarded by tempo and how it feels more like an MMOJRPG is a rant for another comment.
you say there shouldn't be a that big of a gap between pve and pvp but THEY ARE LITTERLY TWO DIFFERENT BUILDS I'm gonna give you an example of what your saying because obviously your not getting it. You saying that is like me saying that in a game where there is mage and melee builds they should both be able to cast spells with that same power and hit at the same power. Like there is a difference for a reason. You cant just mush two things together when they are meant for different thing. Ngl your fr the reason that deepwoken is getting ruined.
YOU ARE COOKING with this and that pve and pvp needs to be closer as always pve can be stronger due to the min max for it but dvm can completely change difficulty
honestly the only thing that bothers me about the nerf is the increased gap between pve and pvp builds. i've been using an astral evanspear silentheart build which still does great damage, but i had to switch out my high hp gear for DVM to effectively solo diluvian mob spam like i did before the update. now my hp gets shredded much faster and i'm extra useless when i get ganked by 2+ people in the depths. at that point, why wouldn't i just jump in the void to avoid them? it feels scummy, but not as scummy as trying to wipe someone's squishy-ass pve build with 3 metamancers so you can make em waste 4 more hours remaking the build. deepwoken pve and deepwoken pvp feel like two whole separate games now, and personally i don't care too much for it chief
builds should stay seperate otherwise if everyone is forced to run a pvp build because trying to make a pve build is useless then the game will ALWAYS be pvp, I do not like having to constantly pvp and like taking breaks and by removing DVM you remove quite a large amount of content from pve players and make pve feel a lot less rewarding for making a build for it. it would only encourage pvp for people who dont wanna do pvp at all.
Example: spy with wraith and snap geli vs sigil knight with a broken leg running crock. Obviously the sigil can do it but it will be significantly more tedious. That is pve in deep. I make pvp build but have to get cancer to kill ethiron for medallions bc i use light weopen and pve exclusive builds shouldnt exist
I feel they should remove? Change? Perma death, deepwoken is desing like an action rpg but is also a rogue like? Those two fundamental in desing kinda contradict each other a bit, specially the hyper focus on harder content on the depths dunno, feel like I'm wasting time griding so much just to wipe
The way that I see it is that the devs should just accept people who are gonna make pve builds to kill these bosses as fast as they do (for some people this is the fun of the game because they’ve optimized a build for one purpose and it’s fun to see it pay off) The way that I see things that if archmage and ragoozer want their content accessible to all builds that people make, they should probably be okay with the fact that players who have dedicated literally everything down to their weapon,enchant,accessories, talents, oath, can deal with the content significantly easier than players who haven’t done so. Me personally I just don’t see the issue when someone does everything they can to specialize in PVE and then they are really really good at PVE Like if you don’t want to have single player content be so easy then don’t play with a pve build that’s all I’m saying, it’s not an issue that someone can make a build to specialize in the content they enjoy on the game Icl
completely agree dvm should be removed, imo every pvp build should be viable for pve, the fact i need to make a specific build to learn layer 2 was demoralizing and annoying. when i want to play deepwoken i wanna enjoy both parts of the game not one at the time !!!!
I would like them to make all types of weapons viable in pve and change some mantras so that they work well, like lightning and shadow(shadow seekers only are so boring bro) makes builds more complex and varied, rework some oaths so they work well in pve (always wanted to use arcawarder or vision shaper in pve)
Imo the swam of mobs type thing should be removed, that's the thing that's hindering pve. As fun as it is to kill groups of mobs like in hellmode or dilluvian it makes it nearly impossible for a pvp build as its essentially a stat check. I think instead they should lean into higher health enemies with more complex attack patterns and mechanics so that any build can beat it so long as they have a good grasp of the attack patterns.
honestly I think the devs should expect people to make mindless pve builds when the endgame pve (excluding bosses) is literally a mindless stat check, prime examples being diluvian and hell mode
3:50 corrupt payback(your build) is A LOT more needed than DVM for diluv you can consistently do diluvian solo with corrupt payback and lower dvm, but not with max dvm and no corrupt payback even if you gave a pvp build 100% dvm, it wouldnt be able to do diluvian also half of pve content is l2 in which dvm does not matter at all, bosses like chaser, duke, ferryman arent affected by dvm and ethiron can be 1 cycled with little to no dvm on any good pve build.
If the devs were smart they would put their focus on pve, its by far the most popular content, and its what brings the most players to the game. Pvp being popular is a sign that there has been no new noteworthy pve content dropping, and proof that the devs dont realize what the majority of their playerbase wants.
what if instead of pvp and pve builds it was just builds. so instead of catering to either pve or pvp you made a build you genuinely found cool and didnt have to worry about categorizing it and instead having fun.
ye their build is not working in pvp meanwhile Im getting 2 shotted in depths by a pve silentheart build that has hubris nemesis while I got 40phys with 550 hp
I do not agree I spent 7h progging a pve build to get assasinated and ilusionary realm. If it isnt even stronger then a pvp build I rather just not make a pve build.
if they change pve to not have dvm game becomes super easy i do all my pve content on pvp builds lol but people tell me my pvp builds look like pve builds
atp when evan got nerfed i switched to stone pale briar and farmed maestro for sinners ashes and stuff like that, it was good but not as good as diluvian
Removing DVM: -closes the gap on efficiency in pve between pve and pvp builds -pve players wouldnt be forced to void if they get attacked by a pvp build -pvp players dont need to struggle so much in pve if they dont have the 47% dvm 6% astral evanspear
Problem, you say basically, yes but don’t pvp have acces to talents that are way more worked and good for PvP, for instance they still haven’t fixed emperor flame not proc on monster, pve is the exact same build, either gale or flame or ice, or even M1 dmg if that’s the pve player thing but the builds are the same, PvP is in that sens pretty good.
honestly that bleed bugfix kinda did half the work in nerfing top pves but it nerfed the shit out of everyone else too 🥶 kinda just relocated the gap instead of closing it
bro i was making a monster mantra build (legion kata) and was level 15 thinking i could do ethiron... at 25 light weapons, it took WAY too long, i genuinely do not remember the amount of cycles it was that painful
What if they gave harder mobs that have harder attack patterns. I noticed that Elden ring attacks have several parts to them, where as Deepwoken mobs have a kick or bite most the time. More advanced move sets with less window to attack would be healthier for diluvian, with unique diluvian bosses every 10 waves that can only be found there and scale with the amount of ppl and have phases to them. This would also turn it into less of a DPS mantra spam game mode
"people want to feel special whenever they get something extremely rare" like the most real words through the whole video I've been a pve player more than a pvp player and whenever i get into games i expect to see difficult challenges to get to a certain part of the game and for doing all of that work and getting something extremely rare i want to feel like i achieved something but the past couple months I've seen these new "god slayer builds" etc. i make them and like just for a moment i feel joy on how good the build is but that comes with a cost. Me getting something like a crypt blade or a curved blade it no longer brings me joy and i feel like a speak for most of the deepwoken pve players that when they get something rare their reaction most the time is "oh cool a crypt blade" and not like just being so excited screaming yelling whatever. what I'm mainly trying to say is that the pve has gotten so bad to where the reward that you achieve for doing an extremely difficult challenge no longer feels like a reward it just feels like nothing..
I think they should add things, for pve such as running around and doing parkour or anything of the sort, without having to fight anything, like having booby traps around
but then the problem with that suggestion is why bother making a pve build when a pvp build is also able to achieve the same feats (albeit slower) BUT it also has a much lower risk of getting ganked
Yeah, a pvp build can do chaser and ethiron just fine but flat out cannot do stuff like dilluvian. He’s looking into the future but right now I don’t think there’s much of an issue.
The point is that eventually PvE builds would also have PvP combat ability as well, and not just feel like easy targets when in fights. PvE builds would still ofc have the edge in minmax PvE for more efficiency, but now you can choose to also diverge some of your kit into PvP readiness incase you get jumped without sacrificing a ton of PvE power. Hope this explains it.
a pve rework would be nice, i hate having to use heavy all the time just so i dont take 10 minutes to kill chaser or 5 cycles just to kill ethiron. i dont wanna even think how long that shit would take with something like a one handed gun
Just sounds like the need for slill based pve content. That way, you have multiple options towards grinding for things that doesnt exactly create a meta, but give a health variety.
Here's the thing Aga, Assuming you know what the devs are cooking, your point is that future PvE content might as well just be statchecks right? And so your solution is, to remove DvM altogether and either give everyone flat DvM or reduce the HP of monsters, to bridge the gap between minmaxxed PvE builds and builds that are either PvP focused or just an average joe schmo build. Great and awesome point! But I propose an addition to your solution as well. Alongside bridging the gap, how about adding more skill-based PvE content as well? Wherein, you can add mechanics that DON'T rely on any statchecking, but instead something skill-based. Simple example: Instead of Ethiron's cycle feature, there are x amount of enemies in the arena that take a flat amount of hits to kill no matter the damage (of course, different hits per different weapon type) and the enemy has some moves/mechanics you need to dodge/parry. Successfully killing enough of those enemies, damages ethiron. Of course, this is a crude example, and its biggest flaw is that it basically timegates every ethiron run to X amount of enemies killed. But my point still stands, WE WANT SKILL-RELIANT PVE CONTENT.
