I once swapped out a 15" rtr woofer for a jbl 2225h in a custom designed speaker with no other changes, and it was a HUGE upgrade in every way, for the entire range covered. It's a speaker that already needed eq, and still needs eq, but imo ALL speakers need eq, if only to boost the low bass, and a good dsp eq does not harm the sound imo. The jbl 2225h is superior for a hifi woofer duty than the 2226 that replaced it. It's an amazing woofer to this day.
pretty impressive results. After seeing the original stock measurements, if the speaker were mine, it would have been quickly posted on ebay or USA'mart to move it on.
that would have been stupid, measurements dont always tell the truth about speakers ability to play spesific music. as it is in this case.. fools stare at "measurements" instead of actually listening to a music. Danny is a great guy but hes not exactly a right man to make a call wether speaker plays Mozarts music beautifully... hes a "measurement guy" , rigid mindset that relies on numbers But thats not what music is about.
previous stupid comment i have you post. amplifier, cd players, dac have some different sound. would you want to start with something neutral sound like a speaker.
Danny you're the real deal, I can attest to his honesty and being forthright after having talked to him about some inherited speakers. I still have those Kingsdale 3's but didn't pull the trigger on the repairs. Keep up the great video's. I'm glad that these were fixed :)
Andrew Jones, now at MoFi, has a new 10" dual concentric, 2 way, purpose designed, engineered, tooled up, & built from the ground up from scratch. It's got a 2" thick faceted baffle. All other cabinet walls are 1", & it's got 2 rear ports to break up modes he says. Custom made paper cone & 1.125" silk dome tweeter, XO at 1.6khz. I'm a Tannoy fan so I'm looking forward to seeing the reviews. $22k for Tannoy DC10A is way more than I can afford. These MoFi Source Point 10, maybe I can afford.
I got lucky when the tweeter in one of my Epos ES14's began to fail. I got a pair of Peerless DA25TX00-08 1" Corundums and adapted them to the front baffle, and instead of the original caps swapped them out with Panasonics much better than originals, and at a value that allowed the Peerless to play lower frequencies. In my situation, the Peerless are much nicer tweeters than originally, with both good dispersion and ability to play low. Danny did 2 videos in Dec 2020 with the ES12, a later single-cap design. Original ES14 suffer from some issues Danny mentioned about the ES12, such as standing up and losing much of the highs. That's no longer the case with mine, because I let the new driver fix the issue. Although I'd never claim my setup is ideal, I do not currently notice any issues with the woofer playing too high, nor either driver playing too loud or soft. I kept the original foam inside, already much more effective than the light material Epos supplied inside the ES12. My ES14's have been greatly improved, and that's something you rarely hear anyone say about the ES14.
I got lucky. As a hobby, I figured I'd mess with some budget RCA floor speakers 2000 era. Bought three way crossovers from Parts Direct, and replaced the tiny crossovers in them with the larger, beefier new crossovers. Wasn't expecting much, but it actually made the speakers respectable, keeping in mind they're old school box design, and not audiophile grade. The crossovers really opened them up, and the bottom end, which was always lacking without equalizer adjustment, was there. Figured what the heck, went ahead and put two by two hardwood crossbracing in the middle about 8" apart, and it's an improvement also, again, keeping in mind that they're budget speakers.
Wow that frequency response is really impressive now that upgrade is amazing and worth the money.Yes old moving coil designs and cabinets are no match for modern drivers and good crossover parts etc
The basic technology of dynamic drivers and how they work has not changed very much, if hardly at all, so I think you're confusing "moving coil designs" with turntable terminology instead. The cabinet designs of modern (GOOD quality) speakers, are considerably better than most vintage ones, especially in the overall baffle size and orientation, but really the only other things that have significantly improved in (better than average quality) new speakers vs. most typical vintage ones, is the crossover component quality, mainly in the type of capacitors that are typically used, being that most vintage speakers pretty much ONLY used electrolytic capacitors, even usually in the tweeter circuit, because that was the only types of capacitors available, but nowadays most above average quality speakers at least use (mostly) basic level polypropylene capacitors instead, at least for the tweeters. However, the basic principles of how dynamic driver speakers work is still pretty much exactly the same as it was over 50 years ago.
I was wondering why I scratch myself that much while watching your videos so I count the times you scratch urself in the video and that was Exactly 20 times! lol Thanks for the great video and I have to confess that each one of your videos teaches more than a college course! Thank you sir.
I enjoy taking old speakers and replacing the drivers and using a new crossover. All you have to do is calculate the internal volume and find a woofer that works in that volume and model it in Winisd for an acoustic suspension or a ported enclosure. You almost make it sound like it can rarely be done correctly. I do it all the time with good flat responses.
Wattage Post CrossOver...................................? I would be curious to compare gross wattage input versus net wattage per driver driven after the crossover. Or maybe at 1 watt in, as a standard. I would think the difference would indicate a crossover efficiency, if there is such a thing.
It's a real problem. I blew my tweeters running my guitar into them ( not a good idea) I did find similar that had recommended crossover a bit lower than original . But sensitivity is lower and obvious. The unit is also about 2mm less diameter. It doesn't sound too bad ,little less harsh.
You would be better off getting one of our X-LS Encore or X-Bravo kits, and a flat pack, or even a fully assembled pair of bookshelf speakers that will easily compete with the Mozart Grand Upgrade kit. The upgrade kits are intended for those that already own the speakers.
I have to wonder how manufactures think they have to design a monitor with some kind of a "sound" to distinguish them, even though it means the monitors are miles from being transparent and natural sounding. This one's measurements are beyond belief. I mean, I don't think, say, Andrew Jones has ever or will every design a speaker that bad. Likewise companies like JBL Pro, or ATC Professional. Anyhow, while the "good" manufactures have always strived for linear anechoic response, controlled dispersion, low distortion and low dynamic compression, some fancy consumer manufactures ship garbage like these originally were. Amazing salvage job as well.
I was wanting to swap out the woofers on my Series I Klipsch RF-7's but yeah, ain't nothing gon fit the holes. I only ever found one driver that looked like it was the same stupid shape Klipsch chose. I wanted to switch them to something different cus somebody dented one of the drivers when they were trespassing in my space and messing with all my stuff without my permission. Original Replacement Drivers for the Series 1 RF-7 are unobtanium and the ones I found were always dented way worse then the dented one I have already.
Hello Danny. Great video that we all thought about at one time or another. I rather go with your kits. They sound great and are not that hard to build. If I could do it anybody can. I have built 5 of your kits and they all sound fantastic. My wife had me paint mine to match the living room interior. How easy. I would like to know what size shirt you wear so I could send you one. Thanks, Ted Allen P.S. I love the speaker wire kits also. I am breaking them in as we type.
In looking at the tweeter response, I see the dip between ~2.8khz & 4khz but it never seems to drop below ~92 db. Is there no way, with more parts of course, to drop the level above ~3.5khz to ~92 db as well as drop the the peak at 2khz to get lower extension out of the tweeter? With a passive crossover? With your woofers and an active crossover/dsp it seems like taming the tweeter would be easier.. I guess the only "gain" would be in the vertical off axis response.
Question- do you do these upgrade kits/videos for a hobby or is it actually profitable for you? I would think updating your existing product line would be a better use of time but perhaps doing these upgrades may even serve as an opportunity for you to test a variety of components.
@@RennieAsh . Can you re post that through some tube connectors? Can’t read your writing the signal is getting smeared , or maybe it’s your sand cast resistors 🤣
If the speakers sound good they might not need updating/improving. One day I might buy a set and try them myself. As for now, I have other bills and plenty of speakers that sound fine enough but could definitely be better.
There's a few different things. Usually a sudden rise & then dip in the measured response indicates that there's ringing/breakup, often due to the cone being highly resonant at certain frequencies. Especially metal cones, but also many cheaper polymer cones, tend to show break-up issues. It can even depend how a paper cone is doped will affect the response & create ringing. It can also come from resonances within a woofer's frame depending on what it's made from (aluminum, sheet steel, plastic, etc) Those kinds of ringing show up as a long trail. In the mids of the new response, the lumps in the spectral dip down, then rise back up, which indicates that the back wave, within the cabinet, is re-exciting the woofer. In that case the fix is to add some loose polyfill or fiberglass insulation into the box to help absorb that back wave.
@@raynerstuelgalid the shape of the spectral delay. A driver ring starts as a peak & keeps ringing longer than the rest (see the original response around 1000Hz). When it's a cabinet issue, the problem looks like rolling hills, where it falls down then rises back up and back down again.
Would love to see a video where you take a pair of "White Van Speaker Scam" units and critique them. Maybe see if you could improve them. Would be a hoot to watch.
It would be interesting, but there's no way it would be worth it, they're often so poorly and cheaply built, the upgrade would be several times more expensive than the speaker..
Confucius & Danny say Speakers are like A square Peg in a Round hole it never works Cookie Boy......😄🤣.... Great job explained once again from Down under...
Do folk buy because of all these graphs or the sound,, all folks hear different to others so a graph would look the same to all so it would make them all happy by sight but the sound would not be the same to them all then their unhappy, because if there's meant to be a comparison it can't work for all. and if there's not meant to be a comparison why the graphs.
I immediately noticed the Vienna. I have the Beethoven concert grand reference speakers (along with the Maestro grand) and I think they're great. I know you've replied to me about it before, it's just that when I see thesevon here I geek out a bit. 😆👍🏽So curious how much they could be improved.
Very few reviewers start with measurements, so they can get away with it once in a while. I've always said (for decades now) that I've often heard things that measure well, but sounded bad. But I've never heard anything measuring bad that sounded good. Some people disagree with me - but they often never look at measurements except those from the marketing department.
Nice work! Couldn't you just keep the lower woofer and make this upgrade a bit cheaper? I know that two different drivers would then cover the same frequency area but if you fade out the original one early enough, I doubt, this would me much of an issue.
The response of the stock woofers is so bad we would have had to add more parts to the crossover get a steeper roll-off. Using our M130 woofer, we were able to use only a single coil to achieve the desired result.
We have a very low order filter on that lower woofer of ours. If we used theirs it would require a much higher order filter to get the nasties out of it. So it would be more expensive than swapping out the woofer and using a low order filter on it.
Because there's many different types of bass. There's the sloppy, really deep bass you hear when someone pulls up beside you in a car, for one example, then there's the beautiful, controlled tight bass, as another example.
Correct, in the sense that you can't just swap out drivers using the same stock crossover. That's a needle in a haystack chance of working if at all. If you change drivers to something other than OEM replacements, the crossover will almost always need to be adjusted to account for differences in both electrical & acoustic output, which is what he did.
Wait, wait, wait. I thought by listening to the first 13 minutes it was a driver swap. OK cool, no problem. Now at 14 minutes in its $520.00 to $618.00? Hey it's all good. But where was the option for the driver ONLY swap and cost option vs response? Can that be done without all the added expense? If not, just buy another tower with greater efficiency and flatter response. Then sell that "defective" unit on fleybay and use that reward to move upward to a more viable option. Hell, I don't care to mod, but $600? Just admit you're first wife fooled you. Then be told to move on. But it will cost you.
Makes you wonder, do these original designers actually have a good listening session with their flawed creations. Or do they just throw their hands up in the air given the poor quality of the drivers they are forced to use.
there should have been punishment for making such bad speakers. they had measured it so it showed that the speaker was such a big disaster! But still, they sell it to people probably only with one goal and trick people into buying so they make big money.
i do have to say though.... subjectivly.............lol my ears are very sensitive @ 1.5k. i do love balance but i do like that dip for my retarted ears. lol
Danny is a great guy but hes not exactly a right man to make a call wether speaker plays Mozarts music beautifully... hes a "measurement guy" , rigid mindset that relies on numbers But thats not what music is about.
:-) Actually, I spend thousands of ours listening and comparing crossover parts and many other aspects. I am well known for my listening experience and many companies send me products just for me to listen to them and give feedback.
I sometimes run across videos from GR. Although I have to say that I've never utilized you, and I'm sure you're talented in what you do, it just seems like a constant trash-fest. Nobody makes anything good, except you? Numbers can say all they want, but if was objective truth strictly by the graph, why couldn't you simply design a speaker according to the numbers and it would be universally accepted as "the best"? Because we're all different with different tastes. So maybe have a bit of grace and acknowledge that different people like different sounds. Personally, I took my VA Beethovens over Sonus Faber (by a hair) and far over the Paradigm or Focals I heard. I'm sure you do good work, but calm down with the histrionic trash talk. Claiming objective truth in a subjective reality is just arrogant.
hang up on these fools - tell them to stop acting poor and buy a new speaker - these people are wasting your valuable time - nothing could be more disrespectful
People don't know what they don't know. We've had people send in speakers with swapped out drivers and they're always a disaster. We would rather the customer "waste" a little of our time than have them waste hundreds on new drivers, only for there be nothing we can do to remedy the issues that creates.
