@@mobydick3267 doctors disagree with you, science disagrees with you, trans people have been well documented in science for a very long time, if you don’t accept that? Who cares… you are not a doctor or someone who has actual credentials to make an informed decision about healthcare? Idk it’s just stupid really… spread love not hate yknow? Intersex people exist, trans people exist, gay people exist, we are normal.
this was so confusing. It was like Tom didn't want to say the wrong thing so was ambiguous with every statement. I'm all for a good argument but this was giberish.
I may be wrong, but Tom appears to be confusing personality with sex. Tom's wife may have an atypical personality for a woman, but that doesn't make her a man.
The trans community does the same, They separate sex from gender, then they use gender to represent whatever category you identify with, so your gender can be fluid, can go from male to female. I think they’re also getting confused with personality.
literally not atypical just describing an attribute. thats the problem to say masculine women are atypical. they aren't. and when u say they are then u get into some weird inaccurate categories and expectations and assumptions
@porshp8941 Yes, perhaps 'atypical' isn't the right word. Conflating personality attributes (which vary greatly) with sex differences (which are fixed) seems to be the root of the confusion.
I feel like we had reached the consensus 15ish years ago that was “it doesn’t matter if you’re a man who likes to wear dresses and cook or a woman who likes to work on cars and play sports. You can do what makes you happy and doesn’t hurt others and be who you are, which is /still/ a man or a woman. Not all men are exclusively masculine, not all women are exclusively feminine, and THATS OKAY” but now, we seem to have regressed into a mindset where all thoughts, behaviors, and feelings are gendered and if you do not fit into the narrow categories of what is supposedly masculine or feminine, you are no longer a man or woman, but something else ENTIRELY. And that, in my eyes, is where the confusion resides I believe wholeheartedly that there is a basis for binary trans identification that results in social and medical transition (previously known as being transsexual). Based on our embryonic development alone, I can see many pathways by which someone’s mental perception of self is incongruent with their body’s physical reality. I would imagine this would be DEEPLY painful (aka, gender dysphoria), similar to if you experienced a tragic accident and lost a limb that you /knew/ you were supposed to have. The minute that we started saying that a) you do not need gender dysphoria to be trans, b) every behavior you have fits into “masculine” or “feminine” and if you have too many of one or the other that doesn’t fit the expectations of your assigned sex, you MUST be trans (or nonbinary or genderfluid or whatever else), and c) you do not have to do any kind of transition to be perceived as and treated as your desired sex, THATS when we started having problems. Transness is not the problem imo, but self-ID definitely is.
Well---the problem is you won't have personal development much at all if you let maniacal ideas take over your culture and force you to speak a certain way, eat a certain way, never leave your house, etc... or be punished. I spent years saying common sense and logical people should leave the public school system cause it was a mess---and now I see the error of my way was leaving the vacuum for idiots to have control over the mass of publicly schooled kids and now I've got to deal with them in the culture. I should have never had to worry about checking the genitals of the "men" who propose to my daughters are actually there and work---and not some skin graft BS.
These are facts. Really disappointed in Tom for wading into this unproductive conversation, I assume for attention, clicks and views. This is the kind of topic video that needs to be done in a debate format anyway
_Little prod to the left, little prod to the right. That's how you keep the cattle in check._ I think the Hot Cash wanted to make little KK here into the UK's version of little Ben Shapiro. How is *rDemocracy* working out for you all?
The algorithms discovered it creates more engagement and time spent on social media. There's all kinds of ideas thrown out and this one stuck. It's likely an idea from a another country trying to meddle in Western society affairs or some deranged groups of people who've managed to amass sympathies from millions.
Tom… I couldn’t understand anything you were saying... Were you trying to be the advocate for something you can’t even explain? Your guest was very clear though. Reality / truth is clear.
Simplicity sounds good, you are being led by sound bites not actual critical thinking. Go see a scientist or a doctor who majority agree and support trans people’s quest to be seen as themselves, surprisingly people are in touch with their feelings enough to know when their body does or does not match.
Feelings aside, gender dysphoria was a dsm-5 mental illness until roughly 2013. Until we address this as fact there can be no logical discussion. I’m not interested in how you feel. I am only interested in facts. I’m old enough to avoid becoming emotional over meaningless words like bigot.
If feelings are what determine a person's access to rights, then anyone who 'feels' like they are 65 years old should be able to claim their pension now. If feelings are what determine a person's access to rights, then any prisoner who 'feels' that they are innocent should immediately be released from prison. If feelings are what determine a person's access to rights, then any adult who 'feels' like a child should be allowed to circumvent safeguarding laws and re-enrol at a primary school. Etc. Etc.
Humanity is the only species we do this stuff with. I've never seen anyone pump hormones into their male dogs to make them present more female in appearance. If you need surgeries, hormones and affirmations to be seen as something you're not then you're not the thing you're wanting to be. It really is that simple
Actually, there are a number of species that can and do change their gender. We are also the only species that wear clothes, so comparing our behaviors to the animal kingdom is already a bit of a stretch…
@@nickn.1436 you mean the various species of animals that do this through a natural process? That's often a part of the survival mechanism for those particular species and is something humanity is incapable of, if one of the sexes was wiped out humanity would die out soon after. We're giving people surgeries and hormones to appear like something they aren't, nothing about that is a natural process. Comparing something which is an unnatural and experimental process we do those with a certain type of mental illness to something another species can do naturally is an incredibly stupid argument. Next you'll be telling me that getting some feathers transplanted onto a person to create some wings will make them a bird.
@@nickn.1436 a species that can biologically change is not the same as pumping hormones into people, giving them surgeries and then using affirmations to tell them they're something that they're not. Humans are incapable of this change.
Sense of self is a very real thing, trans peoples sense of self usually does not correlated with their assigned gender at birth, this is well documented science. Most doctors disagree with transphobes… most psychologists are not transphobic…. You are nearing anti science.
Actually you are more your feelings than anything else lol. To be more accurate you are consciousness, the awareness that perceives reality. You are aware of your feelings, but your feelings are a marker or system that your body shows you when you feel safe or fear. Simply put, if you perceive fear, your body will have the sense of fear as a 'feeling' and what you are, is the thing that is aware of this happening. Therefore you are awareness, and your perception of reality is based upon how you feel about it. That's the most accurate and relevant truth that neurology, quantum physics and neuroplasticity and psychology can offer. If you feel a certain way, then it is true. Regardless of whether it is good or bad, it simply is just true. No person, not you, not I, not society can take that truth away from any person. We can argue and agree about biological sex and agree that there are defined genders, based upon procreation and genitalia, but this doesn't define who you are as a conscious being. your baseline argument is actually wrong. What you feel - is actually true, and it is you. I agree with Tom here. I also agree with the other guy, you can't just say you are a woman, and reap the benefits. But you can identify as feeling that way .. that is true I don't care for your biased rebuttal until you study this thoroughly with neuroplasticity and psychology.. stop going with the internet circle jerk biased response crowd
Kisin puts the stake in the ground-Tom is trying to nudge it loose, but I don’t think it can be nudged loose. I look forward to hearing the rest of what Tom will say. I respect them both, but it’s not looking good for Tom…
Andrew Tate seems rather un-nudgable. Maybe that's why he's a threat to the Matrix as well as every other masculine man. I wonder what kind of people think a feeble, dementia ridden, corrupt old man is a good president for America?
Oh not? You know that whta You describes as reality is all build up buy your Brain? Your red is another red what i am seeing.....your range of being affraid to details on persons/objects is also different. How would it be possible that two person asked by the police describe two total different people then? the one said he has blue pullover , the other on a yellow one. So facts arent real facts, your facts on this earth it what your brain molted toegther out of every information in your sourrounding. So i'm not sure with your your opinion
Just thought I would share some info on words used in science. A lot of people don't understand these things. Phenomena: Things that exist. Level 1 (lowest), Fact: A fact is just a piece of information that someone has observed about a phenomenon. While a fact is typically considered a confirmed and observable occurrence, there is a possibility that a fact can be incorrect if there are errors or mistakes in the data collection process or if there is a misunderstanding of the observed phenomenon. Level 2, Scientific Law: A scientific law is a consistent observation about a phenomenon, a collection of facts, or a single fact demonstrated repeatedly to occur. A scientific law is a statement that describes a consistent and universal relationship observed in nature. It often summarizes a pattern or regularity in the behavior of the natural world. Unlike a theory, a scientific law does not explain why the observed phenomenon occurs; it simply describes the observed relationship. Level 3, Hypothesis: A hypothesis is a testable and falsifiable statement or prediction that is proposed to explain a specific set of observations (facts) or phenomena. It serves as the foundation for scientific investigation and experimentation. A hypothesis is often formulated based on existing knowledge and is subject to testing through experiments and further observations to determine its validity. Level 4, (highest) Theory: A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is substantiated through empirical evidence and repeated experimentation. It is a comprehensive and coherent framework that integrates a set of related hypotheses and observations, providing a thorough understanding of a particular phenomenon. In science, a theory is the most comprehensive and well-substantiated explanation of a set of phenomena, supported by a body of facts, laws, and tested and confirmed hypotheses.
Wow, this whole conversation was over after the leading argument was laid down. I've never seen a counter argument fork off in so many directions desperately looking for a counter argument.
What a person feels is just that, a feeling. I do not have to subscribe to their delusion by granting them the same treatment as a biological woman. The same way they feel like they should be treated like a woman. I feel like they shouldn't. So why don't my feeling matter.
@@macwhite7257 exactly.. I just wish people would understand that we are right in front of them all the time.. not some of the folks the media likes to use as tools to represent all of us. Those people also seem to love the attention.
@@garrett7101 there should be (I think there is) a differentiation between a lot of the people who are portrayed online, - spewing nonsense - and people like us just wanting to blend in, be respected and not make any sort of scene. Transgender vs transsexual
There is no "Productive Conversation" because it's designed to create confusion. That's why Tom is doing mental gymnastics and Konstantin lays it out with simplicity.
I've never though this about Tom before, but...he just said a LOT of things and also NOTHING at the same time. Which is fair enough for him being out of his wheelhouse and still stumbling through. But he was not clear and never actually got to a point. Still an avid listener though!!
Because it’s not just feelings…gender dysphoria can lead to depression and anxiety that left untreated can be harmful to one’s being (if severe enough)
We can completely take the sails out of this entire debate if we as a society just decide to categorize people according to their biological sex, rather than "gender" which seems to be a contested social construct. Just have male/female bathrooms, sports leagues, prisons, etc. For the less than %1 who are intersex, then they can go to the side which they best physically identify with. This would solve this entire problem. Feel free to go by whatever gender you desire and "feel", but you'll still be assigned and categorized as male/female/intersex when it comes to bathrooms, sports, prisons, health, and statistics when a descriptive ID is necessary. Treat gender in society like a political party you're affiliated with whereas biological sex is what our society is operating on as reality when it comes to things that matter.
Every society everywhere, including most of the Anglo-American world where this BS started from, categorizes people based on their biological sex. Literally everywhere. It's this minority group of liberal arts educated folks who have captured the mainstream academic and bureaucratic and political engines that began inventing an entirely new way of looking at people. We've ALWAYS categorized man and woman as biologically different forms of humans. They are reproductive configurations. We take the sails out by as easily as STAYING THE WAY WE'VE DONE IT BEFORE, and say to Gender Theory: "justify your proposal first. Otherwise, no, thank you."
Since this ends up being a political question, let me say this from a political philosophy standpoint: the only robust and workable notion of identity is as the sum of characteristics that apply to you independently of your volition, because for one thing that makes them stable whereas human wishes and feelings are complex, ever-changing, ambivalent, layered between the conscious and the unconscious, and never fully informed (because no one is omniscient). For example, anyone working in marketing, psychology or behavioural science will be able to confirm that what people say they want, what they think they want and what their behaviour shows they want are three different things. So what are those stable characteristics? You did not choose to be a mammal, a specimen of our species, the member of a genetic subgroup, the son or daughter of your mother and father, nor your sex. And yet, all these things are very relevant to the way we organise society and where you fit in it. There's no way around that. If you do in fact have a proclivity to act feminine as a man or tomboyish as a woman, it's most probably not a choice either but something to do with your brain structure, early development, hormonal exposure in utero etc. So we could come up with words to express and acknowledge this like Tom says. The trouble here and the reason we have this delusional debate is that some important ideologies make the false promise that anyone can become anything because we can all pretend things are a certain way when they are not in order to make the individual will paramount (ignoring the complexity and changing nature of volition). Obviously, society cannot function like that. It's one thing to pretend someone is Italian because they live and pay taxes in Italy even though they are not ethnically Italian (at least arguably), provided they speak Italian and "act Italian". It's quite another to let a man use the women's lavatories. The fakery is too much and the risks are too great. Fighting nature is always a losing battle, we can only achieve harmony and peace if we live with it.
My identity is not hung up on me being a woman. I love make up and I love science. Genders are very socially influenced, look at 18th century. Men wore heels and make up. No biggie.
Facts are not determined by feelings. Things really are very simple; your sex, male or female, is genetically determined in humans and is immutable. It’s not an assignment or choice, it’s a verifiable observation.
@@garrett7101 The number of births with ambiguous genitals is in the range of 1:4,500-1:2,000 (0.02%-0.05%). This does not apply to the vast majority of men declaring they are women. And its certainly irrelevant to the argument that biological males should be allowed into ladies changing rooms and sports etc.
@@garrett7101 Data suggest that around 1% of 18 to 24 year olds identify as transgender. That's 20 to 50 times more than the number born with abiguous genitalia. The issue is when biological males can declare themselves to be female and gain access to female spaces/sport.
@@iestynjones5796 but even within the broad term of transgender there are differences - there are people who are mostly concerned with outward appearance (transgender) - there are people with that concerned but also very uncomfortable with their body (Transsexual)
Maybe start with realizing that clothes are inanimate objects that don't have a gender. Historically and in current times, there are many countries/cultures where people wear skirt like clothing - for example kilts and pareos. Doesn't make the person wearing them more or less male or female. Konstantin seems quite transphobic and clueless about this issue.
And if your a police in the uk you are also entitled to intimately search a woman too, because that was the outcome of a discrimination case . Basically a woman’s rights religious rights etc etc don’t matter, to accomodate their feelings.
It's funny to ask a trans person what "male" or "female" even means and watch them struggle. At best they'll give you some vague answer about how it's either a construct, or it's different for each individual. Which makes it very strange that it's so important to them for society to validate their label of choice. What's the point or importance of a label if it's arbitrary or undefined?
@@juiceberry I know exactly what gender I am, because unlike trans people, and other garden varieties of gender confused weirdos, I have a precise definition for each gender, based on biology; the exact definitions I have for the sexes in fact. In my case, I'm a male/man, because I have a Y chromosome, male genitalia, a particular hormone balance, bone structure and density, chest and facial hair, and all the other biological trademarks that make males males. Is that clear enough?
It’s the same is if someone called you a lil bitch boy for crying. You’d get offended that someone called you out. When they could’ve minded their business but wanted to define you in that moment in your life. These people are just trying to find out who they are just as if you did with whatever the fuck you did in your life. Everyone has a different path God put them on. 🤷🏽♂️ so what’s the big deal?
2 месяца назад
Thats where 'non-binary' comes in. Which is just cognitive dissonance. Its ALL a proxy for turning the mind inside out. Literally psychotic.
I was born female, who knows why…but I was. I’ve been transitioning for 9 years because all my life something felt wrong with me. As if I was this puzzle piece that just doesn’t fit. There was no language for this when I was growing up, but from the moment that my body started to grow breasts I did everything I could to squeeze them out of existence. Staying low weight, three tight sports bras at all time, and hell…I considered cutting them off myself. I grew up in the Bible Belt, raised in the baptist church, with a fairly traditional family. Attempted suicide several times, spent years entrenched in self harming behaviors of all sorts. Then one day I met someone who transitioned from female to male. The moment I knew it was possible that there could be language to describe what I was experiencing it changed my life. Took me three years to actually come out and start transitioning myself. 9 years later I finally got top surgery, on the outside I look like any other guy, but I just joke that i didn’t come out all the way assembled. For the most part, I live a super normal boring life. I’m an IT guy and a developer, passionate about making my life better and hopefully leaving some kind of positive impact on the world, which is probably why I’ve followed your channel for so long. I have a few good friends, a few dogs, and a partner who’s luckily loved me pre during and post transition. I doubt you’ll ever see this, but if you ever want to pick the brain of an actual transgender person i don’t mind. Impact theory kinda saved me when I was in a dark place honestly, your videos have always been a light in my life.
@@SophiaAphrodite it's not a case of "allowing", it's just pointing out obvious illogical waffle. Men and women aren't defined based on their personality traits.
Thank you for this conversation!! I have to explain my 10 daughter the confusion that the world is doing about that !!! More than never children need a good base parenting. She was confused how to call her friend that didn’t want to be called she , He but be called “Thing “
Male XY Female XX biology is your personality. Feelings are a small part of the senses that we use to encounter the world. Men don't know & can't do what women are. Women don't know or do what men are. Saying I am the wrong gender isn't based on truth. Trying to switch genders is stereotyping women instead of accepting the wide variety of women 🎉 there are. That is true about men, too.
IMO, the basic piece is the brain and body don't match up, causing internal conflict. I think of it as having a female brain in a male body, or vice versa.
So Tom says they work better because he is more feminine bd she is more masculine, yet she wanted him to be more masculine so nudged rewarded that. Yet thinks feminine and masculine work less well 🤦🏻♀️. Maybe it’s just the people he is giving advice to rather than a general thing 🤷🏻♀️. I have some areas where I think in more masculine way and get along very well with males, yet I’m feminine and like my male to be masculine. Actually I find feminine men quite unsexy.
Kisin keeps bringing up some claim spoken by some group or individual not present at that conversation. This is a setup, and a fairly commonly used one. The remedy to that tactic is pretty simple: "I'm not here to debate points that aren't mine. You're having a conversation with me and nobody else, so only address claims I'm making here and now". Otherwise Kisin can just pick and choose the most suitable claims from anywhere in the world to suit his purposes, and they don't even have to be claims that really represent the group he's referring to because... that group isn't present in the conversation. It's not something a debater worth their salt should ever concede to.
The real question is why the fuck do you care what someone else "identifies" as? I don't. If you are so secure in your identity, you shouldn't give a fuck whatsoever unless it directly affects you.
I don't have a horse in this race, but the distinction between sex (male and female) and gender (masculine/man and feminine/woman) argument seems simple. One is biology the other is a social standard.
It's not about masculinity and femininity. Masculine females can still ID as female and effeminate males can still ID as male. Also female to male TG people can be effiminate or masculine same has male to female ts. It's about the gender your mind is hardwired as. Like when you were a little kid and you just knew you were male or female and not because of the body you have, but how you identify.
@@garrett7101 what do you mean "gender your mind is hardwired as"? I don't have a gender. I have a sex and a personality. Sounds like you were groomed as a child if you were contemplating how you "identify" rather than just realising and accepting what sex you are.
Biologicaly can't be a dispute: XX is female, can get pregnant, XY is male can make a female pregnant, then you have turner X0 and klinefelter XXY. Socially you can go as complex as you wish. Identity can go as far as you want as long as society allows you. When society does not allow you have a disorder, if society allows you are sis, trans, or any variaty....
I parse it this way, René Descartes postulated, " I think therefore I am ". Now with regard to those who espouse gender fluidity their validation point centers around, " I feel therefore I am ".
What we have to realize is that it takes unbelieveable courage to accept oneself i.e., the person one becomes and I can only slightly imagine how difficult and scary and all the adjectives you can think of it must be for someone to, say, be born a boy and grow up and then realize that they are not at all a boy or a man or masculine and then somehow find the courage to admit it to themselves that they are female and then tell others and then go through whatever one has to go through to become someone of the opposite sex. This is why these people need compassion and understanding and we have to create a new space in society for them.
I completely agree. There is much good to learn from Tom but on this I don’t agree with him. One thing I learned from people who feel they are not the gender they were born with is that this is all a Legitimate feeling and understanding that they have of themselves.
Indulging the fantasies of others is not compassionate. We wouldn't dream of encouraging an anorexic person to 'live their truth'. You can admit to yourself that your temperament is more masculine or feminine, but that doesn't magically change your gender. This time in history where this behavior is turned into an industry will be remembered with embarrassment.
I don’t understand why we can’t just be who we are something happened to where people are no longer feeling comfortable in the skin that they were born in and they’re literally trying to escape from who they are being male or female. Nothing against transgender people but what happens what type of switch flips when you no longer want to be in your own body That in itself is huge that is a major cry for help and should not be made to seem like that is “normal” or OK not dismissing feelings towards it. It is OK to be human and feel and go through things how you respond to that is completely different people wanting to change themselves is very drastic and in my opinion unnecessary and then you switch your mind over to follow these ideologies on what you believe it is to be a man or a woman which is something you have never truly experienced. If you’re switching genders we have got the male and female concept all mixed up and you have to ask yourself an important question, why do men want to be women and why do women want to be men? If there were no rolls that we had to play in society how would you know you would want to be a woman if women didn’t have breast if women were all bald if women didn’t wear nails, or make up or talk in a certain fashion, if none of that associated with the woman existed and if you’re transgender and wanted to switch to a woman if none of that existed in a woman what would you be able to grasp onto and how would you know you wanted to be a woman? And what if men acted completely feminine women who want to switch over would you still want to be a man? The ideologies are all mixed up and confused and so are people
Why is it so hard to believe that in utero my brain got one message and my body got another? Most get the same message, but some of us get a mixed message? I was given a female body, but I never identified as female. Then I started testosterone, had surgery and live my like 100% male since 2001 and I feel relaxed, happy, and well adjusted. I'm sorry that you can't understand my experience, but it is what it is.
@@garrett7101 Why is it so hard to understand that a mental disorder isn't a good enough reason to force your experience and perceptions on everyone else? If you hallucinate are we all supposed to pretend your hallucinations are real? Would that be good for you? Do our feelings matter, or only your feelings matter to the exclusion of all physical reality and natural human boundaries, such as women who don't want to pretend a man is a woman?
I get where is going and where he's coming from because I follow Lisa as well. I can see how her masculine energy (tom boy-ish side) and femine energy manifest.
I’m pretty sure there are at least two categories here. People, as Tom’s example of his wife always having been a tomboy or felt some masculine traits or feelings vs people who say and feel that it goes to another level for, that truly know from early age that their soul has been born into the wrong/ not matching physical body. The evidence for this if you will is in the case of Tom’s wife and the alike saying they are tomboys or exhibit some masculine traits but do not say or think or feel they actually are a man vs in the case of the latter they do say this and take it to the level of surgically changing body parts. I think there’s a fundamental difference between the two. I guess the other group would include a lot of what is discussed here, people abusing the issue by not being completely sincere or honest with themselves and others.
Whatever you side is on this it is essentially gaslighting people and to boil down the problem into an abstract question it would be " what is reality?" that is essentially what people are debating over.
I feel like a being called a sis by someone who isn’t a sis is micr aggressive behavior and a dog whistle to other trans people to prejudge me with certain characteristics that they define. Who made them the know it alls?
Being called a nonsensical term is like if you and I, being humans, are called "cishumans" by furries all of a sudden, and when we say, how about no, we're just humans of the regular sort, the furries get to get politicians to libel us with being bigots. Like, go be a furry. But we're still just humans, not some imagined category that can be aligned or not aligned with based on some mental images of the self.
