SHAPING IS KING! Thank you. For a new baker, I’m proud of my bread results. I follow your directions exactly. My son spoke to me about shaping and it really helped. I love watching your experiments, and I wanted to see the results of shaping verses no shaping. I recently made your sourdough Jewish rye. Amazing. I do have a couple of general questions. Do you cover your read while proofing in the fridge? Also, are you spraying water in your container before you put the dough in and on your work surface? Keep up the good work and keep the videos coming! Thanks again.
Before I got it right I failed, failed failed. But I was persistent. The key was NOT to let it rise too much after stretch and fold phase, 25 - 50% max. It is a very crucial step that is NOT stressed well enough and it is easilly overlooked. My bread comes out perfect every time now.
Less than 50% rise during fermentation was key for me too. I ferment in my oven, under uncontrolled conditions. I cut off a small chunk of dough and put it in a jar with a rubber band marking a 25% size increase. I’m not always perfect at ending bulk fermentation right at 25%, but I never go above 50% anymore. You’re right, avoiding over-fermentation can’t be stressed enough.
I would have to agree with you on the topic of proofing. If one is making traditional yeast bread that is being baked in baking pans, then you want to let the dough rise more, but overproofing works against you if you are making an unsupported (artisan) loaf. It seems to go against all instincts early on in your baking career (I overproofed a lot of loaves), but as long as you score the dough properly and get good oven spring, then a miracle happens early on in the baking process.
I think that the common cause of flat loaf is due to the lack of activity of the starter, as casual bakers at home, that's the fairly common cause that people often neglect.
my starter doubled in seize last three times I baked and it was still not rising xD with the third one I fed it two times before making the levain, the levain was on the counter for 5 hours and I shaped, stretched and fold etc. I am at a loss right now :_)
Shaping is king. As usual great experiment!! I was really surprised to see how much the shaped doughs grew during the 18 hours in the fridge. Mine grow a little, but not as much. Yours almost seemed to have grown a good 50%, or is it just an optical illusion 😂. Thanks again.
I ferment really warm. 30C/86F, so the carry-over heat will make it rise until it's come down to fridge temperature :) That's why I usually only let my dough rise 25% :)
Shaping is King: As always, great video! For an video idea I think it would be fun to see how more exotic/uncommon flours affect crumb etc. I commonly use 20% rye and spelt but I know there are many more options out there. Thank you!
You can probably get an open crumb if you use a shifted flour of those kinds, but I usually use the whole grain variant to add the taste of that flour. Also, the sifted kinds are not readily available here for some reason. I’ll have a look what I can get when I go to the States over Christmas 😊
@@Foodgeek Thank you for the information. I hope your holiday here is enjoyable and relaxing. Have a great day. I’ve got a day of baking ahead of me. Two boules of your stand mixer sourdough with 20% spelt and two trays of focaccia with roasted garlic and red onion.
It seems that no matter how you shape it or not it really all comes down to the bulk fermentation and whether you have it down or not. I still struggle with the bulk phase. Out of every 10 loaves 2 or 3 will be either over or under.. They all still taste great but again I am shooting for consistency on my breads for customers. I m just small cottage baker out of his house.
Thank you Sune! I have been struggling with my sourdough, I keep ending up with a dense crumb. Question for you; When I take the dough out of the refrigerator after final proofing, should it look like the dough has risen 100%? So if I bulk fermented in a warm place 25%, then I should see the remaining 75% increase in the banneton? It's so hard for me to know when my dough is ready and has proofed long enough.
Shaping is king. Thanks for a comparison. Always interesting to see how others shape their dough. I noted you didnt use flour at all, but olive oil spray? It would be interesting to see an experiment on BF on different ranges of rising, 25, 50, 50+ to compare the outcome. 80% is very high hydration, but i guess that's to do with the rye flour. What protein content is the bread flour you used? Thanks.
I use water on the table, just to avoid sticking :) I have a video on extactly that: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-UvUJQ0nFVPg.html Note that this experiment is made at 30C/86F fermentation. The more complete truth is 25-50% at warm temperature, 50-75% at room temperature, 75-100% at cool temperature, The protein content of my flour is 14%: fdgk.net/buy-caputo-bread-flour
I am on a different quest these days. I am making boules with a good %age of whole grain flour. I don't want big ears or a lot of oven spring. I want big round boules with well-structured crumb with as much of an intact crust as I can get. Any suggestions,? At the moment I am pushing the proofing to the max and over-nighting in the fridge without plastic. Some great results, some (especially high % rye) need better developed crumb even after they perform the forbidden oven-spring. Love your channel since forever. Cheers❤️
Proofing enough to not have the skin break, that's next level ;) I haven't tried, but at least 100%. With more whole grain it might have to be even further :)
Shaping is king! thanks for the great video (as always): I have noticed that I get less oven spring if i'm shaping the bread into a round loaf instead of a batard. I think it makes sense because for the batard I create more tension in one direction - but maybe I'm jut imagining it?. It will be cool to see an experiment about it.
@8:24 Is that oil you're rubbing on the countertop just before final shaping? @12:20 Can you explain or give a link to explain what "stretched upward" holes look like, and what mechanism causes that type of hole formation in under-proofed bread? Thanks and thanks.
A bit of labeling as you go along would be nice, I got them mixed up as they look the same- until the last cutting and showing the insides together to camera.
No, I was trying a new thing where I wanted to label them in editing instead of using label, but then I forgot to add it during editing. D'oh! Yes, the puffier one is the well shaped loaf :)
This is a good experiment, but I think the temperature of the (challenger?) cast-iron also has an affect on the oven spring. I feel like waiting so that it comes back up to the same temp as it was when the control loaf was put in would get more similar results. That being said, I still think shaping IS king and pretty essential to get good height. 👍🏽
It's not the lid that is the issue it is the base. It is possible that the baking of the first loaf would have impacted the temperature of the base so that the second loaf wouldn't have the same amount of heat transfer which would impact the oven spring negatively. It would be better if you removed this variable from the comparison.@@Foodgeek
@@harlanellis I've baked this way for many years. Usually four loaves with completely comparable oven spring, not just the first. The reason I use cast iron is because it heat retention is great, and it recovers quickly when you lave lots of "stored" up heat :)
I haven't been successful at all with sourdough and I just reverted back to using commercial yeast. If you could make a video series detailing real time, step by step, day by day process each week or something, Sune, I may be able to figure out what the devil I've been doing wrong
I had the same problem before I got it right. The secret is: DO NOT let it rise too much after stretch and fold phase. It is all in the instruction but it is NOT, again it is NOT stressed enough and it is easilly overlooked. The dough should rise 25% and NO MORE than 50%. If you get good seasoned starter than it is impossible to fail.
As I found out , there are many minor steps that can led to problems and everyone has a different set of issues to resolve. It took me three years to work out my own sourdough process.
@@mattmallecoccio8378 I’ve been trying for months. 😞. It tastes good enough but never gets a nice ear. This is a great video. I just found his channel and I’m excited to get better at shaping :). I refuse to give up. Lol.
Wondering about the variation in the temperature of fermentation. You state that you ferment @30C. Mostly I have been using 26-28C. Looks like you get consistent oven spring. Mine is not always that good. Perhaps an experiment would be good?
I dont shape very much and my sourdough rises well. I think its cuz I use 70% hydration and I make my loaves big enough to expand to fill my dutch ovens perimiter and climb the sides a bit. I just shape it in my hands as I transfer it from my mixing container to proofing container so I don't have to get my counter dirty, then stitch right before baking.
Shaping is king. I am no expert at shaping, that's for sure. However, I have very satisfactory results when I shape my loaves and cold-proof them to bake the next morning but not quite as good results if I shape a loaf in the same way but let it proof at room temperature to bake later during the day. Does the latter require more or different shaping? One thing that is noticeably different is that the shaped loaf is much softer and difficult to score when the dough is warm.
Using my methods, I'd say you should only proof for an additional 30 minutes (while the oven heats) before baking. Yes, scoring warm dough is no fun. I'll often just pop them in the fridge if I am baking the same day. Also, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th loaf won't over proove then :) (plus they are easier to score)
@Foodgeek I just saw your 5-minute score video. I'm definitely trying it the next time I can't cold-proof my dough. BTW Thanks for the Ferris clip at the end, it never fails to make me smile! Also, thanks for all your excellent videos.
A nice experiment would be if freezing affects rise. Some people will freeze the proofed dough for 15-30m in the freezer before baking. How does not doing it compare to 30? 1h? 2h?
It can be a bit harder because the surface tension is disturbed all the time. Have a look at my jalapeño cheddar recipe: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-nNQsOHJ7Y3c.html :)
Love your successes. Would you please put your ingredients on screen when you put your dough together? Hearing it only spoken on your video is not enough to catch your recipe. Thank you.
Hi, Sune. I was making your Honey Oat bread at the highest hydration. The dough was really wet but I baked it anyway. It was flat but still baked well and was delicious. What can be done at the point you realize your dough is probably too wet. Say, at the stage you might be shaping? Do you add more flour and re-proof? Do yo just bake it and hope for the best?
Shaping is king…or at least prince…so, boy, questions? I have questions. Mainly why do I not EVER get spring like ever. Single. Bread baking. Video. Out there? Pursuant to this particular video, my last loaf was shaped like none before it. I was quite optimistic how the shaping went; did some serious stitching at the end. End result is a delicious sourdough loaf, but as an artist, visuals matter to me. I wish I could just leave it at “a delicious loaf,” but it’s become an obsession. The crumb was not “tight” tight but the spring didn’t happen much. My difference here was using 30% spelt, 70% Caputo Manitoba. 70% hydration. As for this video, and being well familiar to your modus operandi, I’m really confused by the process seen here. You did not check for windowpane effect. Do you just assume at this point in your bread making? Also-and this really stumps me-your starter. It was so loose and creamy. It did not look active at all. My starter is a mass of bubbles that collapse if you look at it strangely. I dig in with my spatula and it looks like what I imagine the brain looks like from mad cow disease. But yours? Not at all! Where am I going with this? I dunno. I just don’t understand…I’m having another slice of toast…
We eat with out eyes (or senses, really) :) For Caputo 70% hydration seens a bit on the low side. How does the dough look and feel? You don't talk about fermentation. How did you fermentent (temperature,and how did determine is was done)? I don't check gluten anymore, when you get a feel for it, you can feel if the gluten is developed. Also, the sheer amount of time that the dough ferments, it's as developed as it can be. With regards to my starter, I often end up using it after it's deflated, and also for the "mise en place" for the video (everything in separate bowls), I pout it from the container where it grew into a bowl which means the bubbles will often diminish :) I hope that answers everything, otherwise ask more :)
@@Foodgeek I’ve always had a problem with terminology. “Fermentation” How do you define it (especially how you use it above)? I “grew up” using your master recipe. In it you call the final 25% rise in the Cambro as “bulk fermentation.” And I took “fermentation” as the overnight proofing in the fridge. Yes? No? Your recipe is so much simpler than so many others out there: mix ingredients; stretch/fold for gluten development; rise 25% in Cambro; final shape and into the fridge for 12-48 hours (side note: this 48 hours business. Reallly? My loaves act over proofed after 16 hrs); bake 450ºF in Lodge Dutch oven. If I follow this why do my loaves consistently display signs of over-proofing? I don’t understand where the overage occurs. For instance, I just baked a loaf. Mixed ingredients (35% Manitoba, 35% King Arthur high gluten bread flour; 30% Red Turkey whole wheat; 75% hydration). I thought the gluten was developed (window pane). After the 25% rise it was nicely jiggly and bubbly as others have referred to as a good sign. First shape/rest. Final shape and into banneton for a good deal of stitching for surface tension. After 16 hrs in fridge I place it on peel and it starts deflating; even more so when I score it. This is a sign of over-proofing no? Fortunately, my breads are delicious so I am doing my best not to get lost in the weeds. They don’t spring as much as others and the crumb could be more open, but it’s damn good eatin’. I just wish I could understand how creating these are so much more different than others despite my best efforts. (I won’t even get into how your one 20% einkorn recipe turns out so beautifully even tho all you do is mix the ingredients and throw in the fridge-uncovered)
@@alanbrunettin5584 There are no rules about what to call them. I call from when you mix the starter with flour until you bake 'fermentation' and from stretch and folds are over until the shaping starts for 'bulk fermentation*. Your fridge isn't cold enough. It would be best if you placed you dough on a shelf where it's 4C/39F (or below) for fermentation to completely stop :)
Shaping is king: I've accidentally OVER shaped my dough before, tearing the gluten network. It's a real pain to try to recover from this. Any thoughts on over-shaping?
Can any techie types suggest why when I use the bread calculator on my laptop it starts loading but the wheel keeps spinning and it never fully opens (i.e. I get the bread calculator header, but the recipe never opens), yet on my phone it does open. It used to work fine on my computer, but now it doesn't. Any guesses as to the reason, or solution?
By any chance was the second bread baked at a lower temperature? After removing the first bread, the temperature of the challenger may have been lower than at the beginning of baking the first loaf
