This Waterproof Coat Doesn't Use Gore-Tex (And That's a Good Thing) 

That was a well put together piece. I teach outdoors and have done for 25 years. My Paramo Anaolgy jackets have worked longer in more environments and outlasted every other (and I've tried everything!) jacket I have. The core truth is that nothing is waterproof always and everywhere. Paramo Analogy (well looked after) is drier longer and in more places and situations. Our entire outdoor staff (20 outdoor teachers) are issued Paramo.

Slight terminology correction: liquid water on a wetted out face fabric is just liquid water, I incorrectly referred to it as 100% humidity. The term '100% humidity' is best to only be used to describe moist air at the point it can't accept any more moisture. Much more on this in my next video.

Bought one a long time ago. Cost the earth. From the first day, when it rained, I got wet. Wore it three times. The last time, I got soaked. I don't know whether it was faulty or simple didn't work but all I know is, I got wet and the coat cost a fortune. As for guarantees, well you can imagine how that worked out.

I had a pair of Paramo trousers years ago and whenever it rained my legs felt soaking wet & whenever it was dry they were to hot to wear . The best way to view Gortex is as a windproof outer shell that'll keep you warm and keeps you dry in rain to a certain extent

Yes! Hope to see more NikWax products available globally. I've never even seen a Paramo anywhere I buy, but I've been using NikWax liquids to improve water resistance of leather and clothing since about 2006. Going steady

Rab with their Pertex and Nikwax coatings is another way to deal with the inclement weather issue. Here in the UK I’ve found a soft shell jacket treated with Nikwax wash in waterproofer will provide almost an hour of water resistance at a steady 2mm downpour rate. It’s about assessing your need as in most situations you wouldn’t spend that much time out in the open or have the opportunity to seek some shelter. I’m relating these comments to probably the majority who are out hiking in average conditions throughout the year.

It's like you pre-empted my need to get a new coat... I'll be checking them out. Thanks for the tip Ben! As always, making life work better.

I simply love it when people use their heads and evaluate reality and don’t base their opinions on marketing! Outstanding job with this video! ❤

Totally agree. I am a Paramo fan and have used their product for a long time. Also look at Ventile jackets as another alternative to GORE Tex. Ventile is a tight weave cotton that becomes waterproof as it gets wet. Take a look at Hilltrek (UK firm) as they specialise in it. Invented during WW2. I have a Ventile jacket and have been very impressed with it.

I have used various Paramo clothing for over 20 years and it really is effective. After 20 years + the coat is as effective as when it was new and the winter trousers are still the best I have come across for all day wear in wet winter weather. I also have some lightweight ‘ordinary’ trousers which are excellent for warm weather. The only drawback for the waterproof clothing is that it is in the main too warm for summer which is when I use single layer Gortex ( or similar). The advice with Paramo is to re proof it frequently but I have not found this to be necessary with just the occasional re proofing being sufficient. For winter I would also recommend Buffalo tops which although not waterproof ( it’s a Pertex type outer with a thick fleece inner). It is best worn without a base layer and keeps you dry but allows sweat to disperse even in torrential rain, provided you keep moving. A thin waterproof top to put on if you stop for any length of time is advisable.

Finally! A person being honest about hiking rain jackets! I have spent a small fortune on hiking rain jackets and none of them keep me dry! I thought I was going mad!

Hydrostatic head is badly used in tents too. A totally pointless metric for a coat or a fly sheet. It makes some sense in ground sheets where the pressure from weight above the groundsheet forces water up from wet ground below, but it’s not really mentioned there.

I also have a Paramo Alta III for winter time and I love it. But honestly, as soon as it gets over ~15°C outside, you just cannot handle the thick, warm and heavy fabric that is the nature of Analogy products. This is where I still use my ultra light GoreTex (packlite) jacket. It also seems that you have quite a lot of money to blow on waterproof jackets. Paramo solutions (and GoreTex Shakedry) hover around 300 to 400£, which is a notable sum considering GoreTex starts at around 180£ (with cheaper membrane products around the 100£ mark). Not everyone has the money to "buy into" Paramo products. I hope that with popularity they will get a bit more affordeable without sacrificing on labor conditions and the environment. Cheers!

Bought my first Paramo Analogy jacket over 16 years ago. This was after delivering an IT course to some guys from the British Mountaineering Society. I did a lot of walking and needed a new coat. They told me they all wore Paramo…never bought a goretex jacket since.

I really wish we can more easily get Paramo products in the US. I've heard about their jackets for a while now, but have to wait until I visit the UK in the future to buy one.

There's a sentence in english, that explains waterproofing and it goes like this. "..you simply suggest for the droplets to take another path.." This is what water proofing is.

I’ve had paramo fleeces shirts, trousers and coats for 30years. The first Fleece still going strong. Worth noting that if you have a wet coat and put the other fleece over the top. It will pump the water out.

as someone who doesn't sweat all that much, I actually find that a combination of an umbrella and a waterproof (like an old rubbery raincoat) jacket are best - I hope people consider this, because these options seem to be dwindling. Even my 'vintage brand' coat uses this material mostly for aesthetics, as the chain is not properly sealed and the hood does not protect the face. Your skin is not meant to be completely dry in any case - rain is uncomfortable because it is cold afaik. For everyday use (not wearing for a full day/intense activity regularly) I believe the old style of coat is the best. the maintenance factor is really the thing that drives me away from these coats - to hear that I will have to reapply the water repellant is frustrating. I do wish I could find that style of hood on other coats though!

It all depends on the temperature and humidity. Example in jungle conditions only ponchos work. In warm conditions a combination of a windshell and Polartech Alpha direct works very well. If hiking , rucking hard then using a mesh base layer, Polartech Alpha direct and windshell with a synthetic puffy, used like a belay. jacket, over everything when static works very well. Natick Labs etc has done a lot of research into this as well as Mark Twight, read the book Extreme Alpinism.

Any experience with how it works with a backpack? I mean, the water problem in the shoulder straps area, or the back contact places with the backpack etc., is it leaking a lot? Just looking for a new jacket, ideally without a membrane but highly hydrophobic; this looks very nice.

I'm not having much luck getting one of these shipped to the US. I'm surprised that they don't seem to have a US distributor.

Had Gore-Tex and Paramo, now for serious winter walking I use Buffalo systems! No reproofing required! Expensive? Yes all outdoor gear seems expensive these days, but at least this clothing really works and is lightweight. Paramo soaks up water and gets heavy. Buffalo does get a bit heavier, but soon drys out while you walk. As they have advertised, dry within 15 minutes of being totally submerged in water. Oh and Nikwax is expensive and doesn't last long in my experience. I do like Paramo's fleece jacket! I have had it now for over 25 years and still in good condition.

Thanks for sharing ... i had never heard of them... whilst wax jackets are completely different in terms of construction its a similar type of waterproofing methodology the need to re proof is probably why its a niche market as peopke tend to be lazy ..

The jacket he is talking about, retails on the website for $450, must of just missed that point. You get what you pay for. A lot of people can’t afford that.

Really well explained. 🙏

Paramo are good but run a bit too warm for most of the summer months and a fair bit of spring and autumn too. Definately good water management system, far preferable to membrane systems. My workhorse jacket is my Fjallraven Skogso with greenland wax. Its not really waterproof in anything beyond a shower but it is very quick drying, very breathable and when combined with the right layers it allows my to dry out very quickly. My layering sstem is based on the PCU system. I think its been pointed out that there is no prefect sytem for all conditions but, so far, for me, the Fjallraven with PCU layering is my preferred system as it offers the most flexibility ande utility in the widest range of conditions.

How often do you need to reapply the coating, and what's the cost to do that?

It all depends on how hard it is raining, how hard you are exerting yourself, and for how long. If you want to stay completely dry, get a rubber slicker the type used for offshore commercial fishing. Yes, you will sweat and get clammy inside, but you won't get soaked and fish slime and saltwater won't penetrate. Step up to Goretex offshore sailing gear, incredibly durable and keep you dry in a severe storm, but too heavy to hike in. The problem with raingear designed for hiking, biking or running is that the gear is going to be a compromise, and not entirely waterproof AND completely dry on the inside for too long. Not if you are exerting a lot of energy and doing so in the rain.

will the paramo with when you're hiking with a backpack? i reckon that the shoulders where the straps are will get soaked pretty fast?

The jacket in the video is the HELKI

Really well made video, Ben! I was wondering how quickly those jackets are drying. For multi day hikes this could potentially be an issue if it's still wet in the morning. Other than that, it's a fascinating technology I wish I knew about before buying a rather expensive gore tex jacket.

Great video! Love the editing. When you mention the harm in producing Gore Text products (toxic waste, affected water supply, factory problems, etc.) it would be good to add links/pics to the video to support your claim :)

Just always think if you actually need technical hard shell jacket. These will never actually keep you dry with tons of rain when active, they will keep you warm when combined with layers. For me, non-breathable very basic cheap rain suit is thing I use for my bikepacking for example. I don't do these trips when it gets cold, so I can always just wear something that can keep me bit warm when wet, like merino under layer along with maybe extremely thin jacket to just block some wind. It's all you need when you are active. On other hand cheap basic impenetrable rain suit is just best when in camp or town. thing I actually use for biking is rain covers for shoes, other than that I'm wet. Overall, do you actually need to be be shielded from rain when on move? I would argue where hardshells shine is wet snow, in winter conditions. Or just as jacket for your city life. And as far as I know this is pretty much what it was made for.

Good review I'm thinking now it's meant to work a system. Probably why so many are getting mixed results. I've just bought a Paramo Pajaro but am now going to look at buying a base layer from them as well. Probably why mountaineers do so well they get a kit bundle from Paramo. I'm thinking the hydrophobic effect to work properly requires the appropriate skin underneath otherwise if you block the bi-directional process there's no point it'll be as if the jacket isn't doing anything.

I've wondered for years why Paramo doesn't sell to the US market and why Nikwax doesn't sell Analogy fabric to US outdoor gear brands.

Gave up trying to stay dry ages ago. No I just wear clothing under my chosen outer layer that keeps you warm when wet. That’s any man made fibre base layer and either a Montane Protium hoodie or Paramo Bento fleece. And recently a Simms SolarFlex hoodie. The Simms hoodie performs brilliantly. Though expensive.

Have you tried waxed cotton clothing for outdoor waterproofing?

Very well said. BUT: Nikwax proofing is not the industry standard unfortunately. It has better competitors.... Second, you can wax a sweater with Nikwax or any other product and stand in the water sprinkler. The water pressure is minimal and water will roll off. Nice that Nikwax actually made a jacket. I would however ask them what type of proofing they use on their jacket? Because if you use Nikwax either you overdo it and will have big splotches of wax or it will not perform. If you iron it and the wax is soaked in, the only time you will notice the wax is when you move. It will come out at the cracks in the fabric. Otherwise if you use so little that it does not show up, it will not keep rain out for long. The raindrop on your shoulder will just seep in. So what a polar sweater does is that its fabric is fuzzy and keeps water literally outside on the threads. Heat and air is inside. Water dries. The new jacket has a very smooth surface. Water sits there, no air, no heat. Water seeps in.

I've been wearing Paramo (Cascada) exclusively since I first got it in 2011.

I’m new to this sort of thing. I think a fully waterproof poncho is probably better than all of these materials. It keeps out 100% of the water and ventilates fro below. If you do get a bit hot you can swish it out. Comments please?

May I introduce you to - waxed canvas. Cheaper, stronger, and re-treatable for next to nothing. Get you a waxed canvas poncho and you're set for life.

Paramo. Yea! 3 coats, 2 pair of trousers, 15 years plus and as good as new. Well apart from a few barbed wire injuries. However that damage makes no difference to performance.

I have two Paramo Jackets and I love to use them in Temperatures under 12°C. I wish they would make an ultralight version for warmer conditions.

Thank you!

I have a heavy duty poncho/cape, which i can open up for airing out, and it has vent holes. I can hike in all-day rain for weeks.

I've been using waterproof breathable jackets for 40 years and have come to the conclusion there is no such thing.

Hello Ben - how do you think this would do in the snow instead of the rain?

Do you know the English company Buffalo? they make similar stuff for serious outdoor activities. I don't think they would be suitable for everyday use they don't look very good on the street.

Lot of weatherproof clothing uses PFC / PFAS / forever chemicals which are a serious pollution concern since they don't biodegrade and instead accumulate in the food chain. Paramo has rejected using those chemicals so they should be applauded for that.

I hate the fact that you have to DWR them often to keep them waterproof. Where a membrane jacket can wet-out but it will keep you dry if you are only mildy active. Where if you dont have the upkeep right on the paramo jackets you are just wearing any old jacket that will soak you if wearing in the rain.

I like the concept of Paramo overall (I even bought a Paramo pump liner from Scotland some years back). My two main (and big) issues with Paramo are 1. the price-these systems are quite expensive and 2. the notable lack of durability of the DWR/hydrophobic coating (Nikwax) that is used. I both thought long and hard, and did some experimentation with much less expensive but more durable solutions. So far, my best solution is the following: Buy an inexpensive (but fabric based, so not too inexpensive!) poncho. Next, cut out a large rectangle from the front of the poncho. Basically from almost the neck down to the waist, and as wide as your chest. (Typically will be something like 1 ft wide x 2 ft long or so). Get an uncoated, pretty breathable but not ultra breathable, decently light polyester fabric (smooth taffeta works best). Then get some 100% clear silicone caulk and thin it very well with a good solvent (like naphtha). You want to thin it significantly more than, say if you're seam sealing or re-coating a silnylon or silypoly shelter. Soak that polyester fabric that is approximately 1 ft wide by 2 ft long in the thinned silicone, then let it dry/cure outside. To that, we're going to sew some inexpensive medium weight non woven polypropylene fabric of the same dimensions. You know that kind that some inexpensive reusable grocery bags are made out of--the kind that is rather porous/breathable. Then to that, you're going to sew some kind of DWR treated mesh type fabric i.e. ultra breathable. If you want something really cheap, take some of the above thinned silicone caulk and dunk some nylon tulle in it. Personally I prefer Ripstop by the roll's Monolite fabric or Dutchware Gear's Cloud fabrics (same stuff btw)-much more durable than tulle, regular mozzie netting, etc. Sew that ultra breathable fabric to the above composite. Then sew that, you guessed it, to open part of the front of the poncho (treat the seams with the same thinned silicone). Even with these 3 fabrics sewn together, you should be able to suck or blow some air through all 3 layers-not struggling but not super easy either (breathability should be like a good windjacket, or to put it into quantifiable terms, the CFM levels should range somewhere between 20 and 50). That's key. If it's not, you've either used too tightly woven polyester for the first fabric _and/or_ you didn't thin the silicone enough, or if the latter (too breathable), the opposite. Take two coffee filters, put them together and breathe through. That's about what you're aiming for. Almost done but not quite. Importantly, wear a fishnet as a baselayer (preferably a polypropylene based one-fastest drying garment known to humanity). Over that, wear a thin, well wicking polyester (preferably low spandex/lycra type content) l.s. baselayer shirt of that. The combination of of mechanical venting of the poncho with the breathable but highly water resistant front panel will, in combo with the right baselayer combo, do you good in a wide range of conditions. Some water might get through, like with the Paramo systems, but your body heat will quickly remove it. If it is particularly heavy and sustained rain and/or on the cold side, wear a non wicking polypropylene l.s. baselayer (like Terramar makes) over the polyester baselayer (which, as mentioned is over a fishnet true/first baselayer). I have tried many different things. Nothing I've tried so far has compared to the above. It does require some experimentation and holistic thought, but really isn't hard to do. I know people don't like the looks of a poncho or the potential flapping. As to the first, I don't care at all (how immature/shallow, function should always trump form). As to the second, I put a piece of shock cord connected through a few loops that cinches the back fabric around my pack tightly and with the excess, I just tie it lightly around my waist-hence little to no "dreaded" poncho flapping. Meanwhile, the silicone coating on the polyester face fabric will last a long time and be quite durable (unlike a Nikwax coating or any traditional DWR type coating. The silicone coating is much more durable simply for the fact that it is MUCH more thick than most DWR coatings are). And you can do all this for pretty inexpensive (provided you already have or know someone with a sewing machine). You can also use tyvek "kite" cloth instead of the non woven polypropylene, my first iteration used soft tyvek kite cloth fabric, but I don't recommend this as this material is surprisingly thermally conductive (about the same as water if I remember correctly-look up HDPE material's thermal conductivity) and condensation can build up on it easy. Also not as breathable as the nonwoven PP material, while the PP material is quite thermally non-conductive and thus better in cool + wet conditions.

They don't tell you what's in their care products, and what their clothes are made of. A lot of claims (sustainability and performance) and patented names for things, but very little real information on their site. I like their products and ideas, but being so "secretive" doesn't look good. I hope they can be more transparent

Missed your videos :0

80mph on my motorcycle, would you trust nikwax over a conventional rain coat?

See the fortnine video comparing waterproofing materials for breathability and waterproofing. I prefer d-dry based on that test suite. Edit after watching the video: Yah I get the desire to have tests that allow active pumping materials be able to be tested. Though to be fair if we really want the best performance we would wear ponchos with very large baffles that allow us to turn away from the rain and lift them to release the hot air every now and then. But that results in an insanely unfashionable thing, at least in most current cultures. As for what that poncho should be made of I beleive much more in full membrains than active pumping since a poncho with baffles overlaps heavily with the problems active pumping helps mitigate, yet is way better at them. Vs the problem of heavy hard wind and rain which active pumping is weak to and membranes are alot better at.

Was looking at buying one but realised it doesn’t ship to Singapore. Would love to get one if possible.

Does anyone know of any brands available in the US that use NikWax Analogy fabric?

With the thin goretex coat, I remember you mentioning how bad of an idea a backpack would be. I assume these have no problem with that?

So do their coats not use PFAS chemicals?

Over time, all of my winter jackets seemed to lose their ability to repel water. I suspect that is because a waterproof spray coating fails over time with washing and exposure to rain. The "breathable membrane" material doesn't seem to fail. Nonetheless, the jackets become sopping messes. Not 100% sure what was happening.

Try a Brynje mesh baselayer under this jacket.

great channel!

I dont understand the paramo thing. Thise jackets are not waterproof. Expensive lesson by the way.im not saying that goretx is the answer, but saying that analogy systems are waterproof is simply not true. It passes the shower test but if you put a backpack on... Tou are going to get wet through the shoulders, no doubt about it.

If Nikwax is the secret sauce, can I just get a can of that, spray it on any old rain shell and get the same result?

Pretty cool!

Great points but... like.... Teflon: it's all Teflon: Gore Tex and all the other identical products are made of PFAS. Paramo used to be too, not anymore though. Nikwax is clear too. Blows my mind people still talk about these brands as if leisurewear performance is what counts here. The Gore Tex name should be cursed right now.

I love my shakedry jacket for cycling and haven't found anything better or even comparable but I coulf be swayed towards paramo for hiking where getting so hot isnt as big a factor and lightness is the main downside for me. My current hiking raincoat is a non breathable single skin jacket by frogg toggs called the Xtreme Light. Its brilliant as an extremely lightweight emergency rain protection and is like a much less breathable shake dry.

Weight is a really important consideration for hikers, runners etc. How does the weight of the Analogy technology compare to Gore-Tex?? My hunch is they are super heavy?

so it's kinda a very water wicking fabric? Is it similar to how wool is water repelant? I'm trying out a waxed canvas jacket for a kinda more durable, less synthetic water resistant pollution, unfortunantly they're not breathable. Thanks for mentioning this, haven't heard of Paramo jackets, but I have heard of Nik Wax

so we have a promising new waterproof approach, based on a wash-in Nikwax product . I like it . I wonder - for those who know - if Nikwax’s stuff is good for the environment (I’m hoping it is) (- I mean, does it have any of those ‘forever chemicals’ or anything else that concerns us?)

The only way is to use a soft fabric thats bendable. Then get the roof tile method of lots of fabric panels sewn on . This obviously will work best standing upright. But at least its breathable when working or hiking.YET if you are at rest the tilies will rest downwards and shed the water Edit. I forgot to mention a waxing or lanolin wipe on occasionally when dry.like preening

With gor-tex you’re paying for the name… you can get wet while wearing a gore-tex jacket due to sweat.

At this point I'd just get a 100% water blocking PU raincoat

All the companies have lost credibility with claims of amazing weatherproofness. You must ( I do have to due to being very easily hypothermic ) is avoid being COLD and WET at the same time. Sadly ALL companies make impossible and disingenuous claims now. If you out for the day all fine to bet wet and warm but stop for a while or stay out for a longer period or 6 maybe more and you’re in a mess.

Does this mean you can't wear them while wearing a backpack/gear? I.e. it will wet out at points of contact?

Maybe I missed it. What is your height/weight and which size are you wearing in the video? I’m ordering from outside uk, so I’d like to get the size right. Thanks

Mmh, I love the textile tech, but... they are really expensive and they don't have any sizes larger than XXL

How does that compare to a Buffalo with Pertex?

what about using ptfe fibres to make it hydrophobic?

Thanks for the video. So this is just a spray on waxing layer that is hydrophobic. Could you not apply that to any jacket? I have seen numerous hydrophobic sprays in my local outdoors stores so what makes Paramore jackets suited and uniqely positioned to apply this spray? I have a Fjallraven jacket, that I apply wax to once a year which has the same affect too using their G1000 fabric.

You don't have to excuse your dog. I like the rustling!

Gore-tex doesn't work without spraying it with repellent either, and also heat to "activate" the tech. it's completely stupid to think it's an everymans fabric, when it's only makes sense for professionals. gore-tex only works in certain conditions, and I can't see why ppl want them when everything else is better.

😅get me 4 coats all dem dark grey

i just want a jacket made from the shit they make umbrellas from. i never had a leaky umbrella. 200euro gortex leaks in 5 mins.

"That means, the air inside the coat can never be dryer than the air outside the coat" is utter bs since it completely neglects the temperature differential. since your body always produces heat, this heat can be used to dry the air within the coat even in high humidity conditions outside the coat, as long as there is a temperature differential. This is famously put into effect in ecwcs gen 3 suits but known by anybody in rainy countries such as UK or Ireland who heats up their home in order to drive off humidity that could cause mold.

Plastic poncho still the best. 100% waterproof and breathable armpits. Also fits a pack.

Its to thick and warm. A rain coat has to provide zero insulation or you cant ware it over 10c without over heating.

Are there any animal products in the nikwax coating?

Cost more than my car

£270 for a coat?!

I have a Goretex shell for when I'm cycling and light weight is everything, but otherwise I went back to waxed cotton a decade or so ago. I have a couple of different Barbours for when I'm on my feet and a Belstaff for when I'm on my motorbike, I spend a bit of time and care re-proofing them annually and they're (IMO, YMMV) an unbeatable combination of performance, longevity and style.

It weighs so much. that's why goretex is number 1.

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600$, huh

Kinda like oilskins

If you've been wearing it for 20 years? What other brands have been/are using this technology?x

Water off a ducks back.

Dry T-shirt, wet pants…

fifth