Thoughts on the T-14 Armata Tiff 

No, I didn't delete the previously pinned comment either. I'm happy to believe it was some automated RU-vid thing I haven't found the report of, and you know, it's probably for the best anyway. We know what was said by both parties and we likely don't need a monument to these events ten years from now so I'm not going to go looking for it to resurrect it in any case. That would hardly let us move forward. ConeofArc has indicated he'll be issuing an apology on a forthcoming video for his being out of bounds as well in his response video, and that should put an end to it. Not least, I think folks misinterpreted a few of the previously pinned statements as being addressed at me, and not the wider webizenry. Part of the idiocy is that half my comments were directed at the audiences at large, not creators (A reverse of the above!), and have been validated through events such as an attempt at doxxing me on one creator's Discord (To their credit, the server mods banned him immediately... but what on Earth was he trying to achieve? My name is public record!), and a number of the (currently) public 3,411 comments below who apparently didn't hear what I was saying about being cult members, for one creator or another, which I am leaving up as monuments to themselves. The RU-vid Spam filter has caught a bunch more which we have as a group at large been spared. As an aside, I had to google 'clout chasing', which some of the posts (Not, I would observe, the formerly pinned one, contrary to mis-interpretation) have accused me of. I'm in a position where I can walk into most any major tank museum in the world and immediately be recognized by staff (Hell, my local gun shop staff recognized me). How much more 'clout' do I need? Idiots. Anyway, back to editing my Kurassier video...

I feel like the only solution is for you, Lazerpig, ConeofArc, and RedEffect to smuggle a T-14 out of Russia and take it apart on a livestream.

There's only one way to truly settle this dispute: take all the arguing to the war thunder forums and keep arguing until someone from the Russian MOD leaks all the classified documents about the T-14 to definitively answer all the questions about it.

I’m sticking to aeroplanes. Tank nerds are scary.

Amazing, the T14 have destroyed a community without firing a single shot

This gives me the vibe of your dad saying "I don't care who started it, I'm finishing it" when you had an argument with your sibling as a kid.

I am here to act as an ambassador for The History Channel and say: It was aliens. Humans simply arent smart enought to put 2 V shaped engines together and make an X, the aliens did it for us

The t14 tank has now, only successfully attacked the online historian community to great affect.

I have from a very unreliable source that the T14 is powered by a 4 boiler setup stolen from the battleship Bismark. That is why the Germans paddeled around in the ship with oares.

I suspect the engine for the T-14 was developed by gnomes deep beneath the earth. I base this on the amount of whiskey I have consumed prior to watching this video, and I stand by my conclusion.

This is what happens when David Fletcher retires. We need his moustache to provide guidance in these dark times.

Well to be honest, in my humble opinion, of course without seeking to offend anyone who thinks differently to my point of view, but also by looking into this matter with a different perspective, and without being condemning of other's views, and trying to be objective, and considering all available evidence, I think that I have completely forgotten what I was going to say.

Here is lazerpig’s deleted comment for those who want to see it “Thank you Cheftain, thank you for wandering into a drama fest you had nothing to do with, that had already calmed down, that I specifically stated I want nothing further to do with, to state your opinion that essentially surmounts to everyone needs to just get along". I'm extremly dissapointed that this is the angle you choose, and that you opted to critque me for being unprofessional and for making a response video in a response video you yourself made about a situation to which you have no involvement with absoloutly no sense of irony. it has been three months since RedEffect made his initial video crtiquing my thoughts on the T-14 and, as I acknowlegded, I am only finally responding to this because Cone decided to jump on the bandwagon and I realized this was something I needed to address rather than ignore. Do we honestly need every RU-vidr on the planet vaguely related to tanks waddling into this argument with nothing more to say than "everyone needs to calm down"? Of course not. As I've stated before we are not going to find any credable source that will state with 100% confidence that the T-14's engine is related to the German WW2 SLA 16, that we can state with any degree of confidence to be 100% factual. That kind of thing very rarly happens in history, of which you are fully aware of. Therefore in the need to be honest and truthful with my audience I have to state that I don't know for sure, but I am convinced it is related and I went over a lot of the reasons and evidence why i think that, I've been very open and I've been very honest with what I beleive, and so far no-one has yet to provide any reasonable counter which has made me doubt those beliefs. We can never honestly be sure of anything, and I've made a RU-vid Career going over many things people were sure about which, on closer inspection, turn out to be questionable. But I suppose if we cultivate a culture where no-one is sure of anything and everyone is encouraged to question what is being said, then we enter an age of endless, unwinnable, debate where the only victor is the one who presents to be reasonable and asks for calm. I have a business email address listed on my channel. If you wish to get involved I would actully appreciate your input on my research which I would be more than willing to share” I foresaw this comment getting deleted a mile away considering how controversial it was lol

Ok, but would you rather fight 100 pig shaped cones or one lazer shaped arc?

It is my speculation that the T-14 Armata was grown from the seed of a destroyed T-34 somewhere in central Russia. However it was harvested too early, which is why it hasn't done anything.

Can’t we all just come to the agreement that T-14 is a later modification of “Little Willie”, and continue with enjoying tanks peacefully?

Maybe this was the reason the T-14 was built after all; not to win wars, but to sow social discourse. We’ve been bamboozled.

The California Irishman has waded into the fray with his golden shillelagh......absolutely fantastic 👏

Wait a minute. Did LazerPig delete his pinned comment under this video after he said "but I'm not going to delete it because that would be disingenuous of me (source: his community post)"?

My view of the tiff is that it is an image file format for storing raster graphics images, popular among graphic artists, the publishing industry, and photographers.

I'd say the biggest hit of the question whether or not T-14 is a capable modern tank is that it isn't fielded in meaningful numbers. Who cares if someone claims it has this or that if the tank isn't used. If the tank isn't used its just an expensive box of steel.

am I the only one that feels this whole argument getting brought to The Chieftain feels like a group of kids asking their teacher or father to settle an argument for them? its just funny

As a powertrain engineer, if you keep a basic engine design, without major changes int the basic concept, its the same engine family. Thats why the AVDS 1790 is still the same family, as the original AV1790, despite it changing from a naturally aspirated, aircooled Carburated Petrol to a Turbocharged Diesel, still aircooled. Thats why the W92SF in the T90M is still the same engine family as the W2 of the BT7M and T34 fame. In that special case, except for evolution in metallurgy and manufacturing technology, there was very little change, except for the addition of a Super- and Later Turbocharger. Then again, tank engines are quite long lived compared to car engines for example. A 45 year old Tank engine is still perfectly viable in modfied form, see the MTU 873 in the Leopard 2. A 45 year old car engine, is close to useless. Most new tank engines of the last years were copies of the MTU 873. The only major exception is MTUs 892 series engine.

The T14, certainly one of the tanks of all time. It has an engine, and is capable of breaking down, just like ever other tank in existence.

I'm subscribed to pretty much all the aforementioned channels, but I ignored all their T-14 videos specifically because of how little we know about the tank and how politically charged the whole topic of russian armors is at the moment. But I clicked on this one, because I know, no matter what, The Chieftain will have the most level-headed and rational take on the topic.

A good opinion to have - no piece of equipment sucks or is amazing until we actually see how it performs in battle. And, more often than not, it heavily depends on exactly how its military uses it.

Actually if we trace back tanks we end up with armored wagons from 500BC. Therefore the Abrams is actually just a bronze age wagon.

I just had a thought: If Germans had built the Landkreuzer P. 1000 Ratte, it would have been based on a battleship. Its engine and main armament would have been typical battleship components.

Chieftain: "Spookston, go outside and cut me a switch to deal with these children!"

This sounds a bit like when the Foxbat Mig came around. There was a world of speculation over it, and turned to be nothing close of what the westerners kept imagining.

T-14 Armata, definitely the best tank on Ukraine battlefield, not a single one lost in combat so far.

I've only once watched LazerPigs channel and as a former tanker I know he's not one.

I know it was a small part of the video, but I really liked the very short description of the Patton line. It solidified the differences between the versions in my mind in a concise way, whereas before my brain remembered it as a big ol' jumble

Seems like everyone’s running to the chieftain like dad help us with our stupid argument and he’s just like I don’t care you’re all wrong. It’s great keep up the great work.

>Cries RE didn't use primary source. >The tank is Russian. >Primary Sources would be mainly Russian. Truely is a shame I believed it when Russian propaganda told me a shitty car engine DOESN'T have more torque than a tank's engine. ✊😔

Thanks for the update Chieftain. I just discovered this whole flustercluck yesterday, and have been VERY confused as to what happened, so the explanation was appreciated.

Although the exact linage of the T-14 isn't known, it is a safe assumption many of the late Soviet "super tank" projects went into it, specifically the Objects 640, 195, 490, and 477. The former two were based on the T-80UM, which was based on the T-80A, which was based on the T-80B (yes, it's backwards), which was based on the plain old T-80, which was based on the T-64, which was an offshoot of the T-62A, which was based on the T-55, which was based on the T-54, which was based on the T-44, which was based on the T-34-85, which was based on the T-34, which was based on the A-20 and A-32, which were based on the BT-SV, which was based on the BT-7, which was based on the BT-5, which was based on the BT-2, which was based on the BT-1, which was simply a purchased Christie M.1931. Therefore I'm sure you'll agree, the T-14 Armata is the same tank as the Christie M.1931.

I find it interesting that none of them discussed track tension for obvious reasons.

One thing that rubbed me the wrong way was LPs response of "you could have contacted me privately". The arrogance and slithery quality to this mind of statement is astounding.

This why I love this channel, because it’s so professional. I appreciate your work and diplomatic way of addressing the debate.

Finally someone's word I actually care about

Well said. As a regular viewer of most of the mentioned channels, I hope everyone can get along. Until proven otherwise, I still believe the T14 is powered by Gerbils in a hamster wheel.

Chieftan, you helped me realize my love for the tank building hobby and my love of tank and military history. I definitely am getting my degree in military history because of you and the knowledge i have recievwd through you in all forms.

Its so bazaar hearing you say "Lazor Pig" out loud haha But yeah engine blocks can be used for years but still have major changes. An example being the EMD 645 made originally in 1965 is still in use in many new railroad and maritime uses. Or how GM is still using a pushrod version of LS that in itself is a version of the Small block that came before it in the 1950s originally. Yes it can be the same "engine" as the old one, but vastly upgraded. The whole T-14 is a similar situation.

Wait, if we get enough patreon support, the Chieftain will answer arbitrary questions? Quick - let's get him to answer something silly and fun. Who would you rather have as a loader - Washington, Grant, or Patton?

I think saying the T-14's engine is a copy of the Sla 16 is like saying the AK is a copy of the Sturmgewehr. Did the Soviet's get their hands on some? Yep. Did they think the weapon was interesting and would fit into their doctrine and therefore work on the concept? Yep. Is the AK-47 a copy of the Sturmgewehr because they're both select fire long stroke piston operated rifles shooting intermediate caliber bullets from detachable box magazines? Nope. And thank you to the Chieftain for appreciating for how big a deal changing V shape, piston sizes, transverse vs longitudinal, etc. is It's like saying a Honda J30 is a copy of a Honda C30 because they're both 3L V6s.

Observations based on research and facts, delivered with a dash of understated and occasional self-deprecating humor, are why I'm here. Keep it up, for what it's worth, I will watch for as long as you want to make content.

I didn’t go into this expecting an oversimplified on the patton tanks but it honestly helped me understand them a bit better lmao

Our Tank-Messiah hath spoken. Praise be, praise be.

Wanted to ask Chieftain but if you have watched the new Red Effect and Coneofarc videos, what did you think about the information they provide. Now im not gonna ask you who is right in this argument, but Red's video in particular brings forth a lot of interesting data and information on both the Sla-16 and 2V16. Wanted to hear your thoughts on it

anyone have the text from LP’s deleted comment?

You can't fight in here. This is the war room!

I have had the same axe for 50 years, I've changed the handle 3 times and the head twice.

This feels like a teacher getting involved in a student argument outside of school.

You know shit has gotten real when the Gaelic Giant decides to get involved. Great video btw

You are now the father of tank channels keeping the kids in line!

The Chieftan is tank God the last beef he settled was with Saddam and hes dead now.

Kerfuffling aside, the Tank of Theseus is a pretty good illustration on how we can be pedantic over what is or isn't a direct lineage.

The bit about doing research and bringing it to your attention (or lazerconeeffectopotamus) is how I came to solve the question of why were the 250 production (and four pilot vehicles) M4A3E2 Shermans all built with 75mm guns. For those who missed my comment on an earlier Q&A of yours, Fisher did all the production of them at the Grand Blanc, Michigan factory and they didn't have any 76mm guns available for M4A3 production until Sept '44 (Oldsmobile made the M1 guns and couldn't keep up with demand) which was two monthsl AFTER the Jumbo production ended in July 1944 because the plan was to have them shipped to europe to be distributed to the troops in September. So it was either miss the scheduled deadline to get them into the hands of the troops until enough 76mm guns were available, or build them with the 75mm guns which they had plenty of available. Fisher also btw didn't produce any of the 105mm Howitzer armed shermans so that wasn't ever at any time an alternative available to be considered (though in historical hindsight the howitzer would have been better suited to the assault tank role , especially as the M67 HEAT round then available to them offered 4 to 7 inches of penetration). Fisher also built the majority of the T26E3/M26s including the 20 sent as part of the Zebra mission, and they were also responsible for the majority of the M10/M36 tank destroyer production, and 98% of the hulls (and 60% of the turrets) for the Buick assembled M18 Hellcat. And the reason why Fisher got the Jumbo contract was because they had the capacity and the know how to do it right, they had just finished 40 T25E1s and 10 T26E1s when they began the M4A3E2 production and were already building the M4A3(75)W large hatch shermans which the E2s were based upon. And they'd just about to start production of the M4A2(76)Ws as well so they were already building the T23 turrets and the mantlets for the 76mm guns that were used as the basis of the the E2 variant. The redesigned thicker lower hull final drive housing came from another GM division as did most of the armor plates and turret castings. As to the question of the origin of torsion bar suspension in US Army tanks, Ordnance Department issued the requirement for a fast tank destroyer with a 76mm gun and using Torsion bar suspension as the T70 program replacing the earlier T42 with its Christie suspension and the T49 and T67 which had coil spring suspension. Now General Gladeon Barnes had been the head of the Research and Engineering office at Ordnance since 1938, and he had filed a patent for torsion bar suspension himself in 1934 along with Warren E. Preston (granted in 1936) so well...he kinda knew their advantages and we can SPECULATE that he was probably responsible for its inclusion in that requirement issued in late '43. Now he couldn't very well insist that it be exactly the version he patented (which included what is now known as the tube-over-bar design) but he probably hoped some manufacturer or engineer would look at the existing patents and choose to license his. As to Porsche inventing Torsion bars...that's false. Their invention and first automotive use can be traced back to 1920 by the chief engineer of Leyland Motors, J.G. Parry-Thomas and used in the Leyland Eight manufactured from 1920 to 1923 (though his first patent for a torsion bar assisted leaf spring design was granted in 1919, and later he filed for a updated patent for a torsion bar design without leaf springs in 1923 but its development ended with his death attempting to take back his land speed record in 1927). Porsche's patent for torsion bars basically copied the 1923 filing which became abandoned by Parry-Thomas's death, and was granted in 1931. And the T70 tank destroyer which became the M18 Hellcat, derived from the Panzer III's design largely because they didn't have to pay royalties to any germans during wartime (which they would have had to if they licensed the Barnes-Preston patent). Finally, getting to the original Kerfuffle issue, the X-engine of the Armata program, when THAT is considered one of only four X-pattern engines to reach production status (all the others are considered experimental engines) and only one of the other three was judged to be successful (the GM 16-184 used in a number of USN sub-chasers in WW2) , and the majority of other limited-production/experimental engines were also unreliable and overly complicated, I would speculate that a Russian engine manufacturer with a history of failed efforts to sell an engine design widely considered as a poor configuration over even a radial engine, is also going to be unreliable and unsuccessful. I'll attach a link for the only successful production X-engine. oldmachinepress.com/2014/08/17/general-motors-electro-motive-16-184-diesel-engine/

The T-14 Engine is clearly based on the Étienne Lenoir since it compresses and burns fuel in the presence of oxygen to produce rotational motion. Also, I'm sure we'll learn more soon enough since they're being deployed again. Just wait for a war prize to show up at Aberdeen eventually.

Ive not seen Nicholas so riled up in a long while about something, but good video!

I think there are more takes on the T14 then tanks in service.

7:56 great. Now I can’t stop thinking about how the Patton series tanks are literally just upgraded Pershing’s….

Finally, someone with sense. Cone was too harsh on Lazerpig, Lazerpigs presentation style and exaggerations detract from academic discussion, and Red Effect was just kind of there. Nobody is perfect, and they should just debate it politely. And it’s all speculation anyway…

This reminds me of the old story. "I had to change out the handle 4 times, and the head 3 times, but it is still my Grandpa's Axe."

I just now know that you made this. Its pretty cool. I have seen this type of back and forth between others over different topics. I hope that they may learn from this, although I doubt since watch time is a thing. Thanks for all the vids

Well, that's really quite excellently and succinctly put. Ship of Theseus is actually an excellent point to make in a lot of cases like this. I've had to use it before to explain to a very passionate Kalashnikov enthusiast that actually whether the AR-15 or AK is better is largely subjective as to when you consider it no longer being an AR-15/AK and now a variant or a different gun entirely. It was one of the first things I thought of with this whole set of shenanigans actually. It's also the reason I've repeatedly suggested laserpig DOESNT do a video on the AK, because with the amount of conflicting, subjective and speculative sources out there you can come to just about any conclusion on it.

Thank you for being a voice of reason. Too many arguments, whether tank related or otherwise, end up polarized, with either side being certain that they are right. People forget that we can agree to disagree.

I think the only way this could have been better is if David Fletcher himself came out and said "stop being silly" xD. Lovely words to help remind us all to keep calm and to argue the points a bit more over the way they are made and to not take things too seriously/angrily.

"There is no clan of cone or legion of lazerpig" meanwhile r/lazerpig...

When I saw you made a T14 video, I knew we would finally get an adult's take on the matter. Thank you good sir. I am a fan of both Cone of ARC and Lazer pig. I find both channels entertaining and informative.

The T-14's engine is, above and beyond all else, utterly irrelevant unless Russia will become capable of serial production some time before the heat death of the universe (spoilers: not happening).

Thank you for the sober assessment of this debate and keeping your content as grounded as possible given the conflicting information we get online.

thank you for being you - your sense of humor and respect for the "people" making such suggestions that you have to comment on makes it's a really lovely video to watch...if only those "others" would see the bigger picture that you truly illuminate.

Fantastic Video, adding to my favorites btw met you at Tankfest 2019

Perfectly summarized, tanks are tanks, lets all just love them!

I personally know only the basics of the T14 argument, but I have recently been digging into the details of submarine diesel engines (particularly Japanese and American). I have discovered that the subject is incredibly complex and you can’t simply rely on photographs to discuss details of the engines unless you are an expert in the field of diesel engines. We’re talking valve construction and the details of how the cylinders are built, things I don’t understand in the slightest (I’m just trying to find out which Japanese engines were reversible given how the reports I have disagree). Until I see a diesel engine expert tear apart a T-14 engine and the WWII engine and compare them in detail, I’m going with “Maybe, but I doubt it as these comparisons seem too surface level.”

I just wanted to compliment you on your explanation of how to form an opinion on a topic. I'll admit that tanks are not generally my choice for video watching but having overheard this video as my husband watched it I felt the need to comment. As a historian and researcher I loved the way you formed your argument that opinions should be based on research and facts not whether you like the content creator etc. There is so much misinformation spread across the internet, and pointless debates about a topic that has been researched by none of the parties involved, and it was very refreshing to hear you explain so clearly, and entertainingly, the flaws in this method of obtaining information. Thank you.

Nice to see a voice of calm in all of this. Thanks

I think the only thing that we can reasonably conclude given the sparcity of evidence is that the T14 Armata is: 1. STRONK. 2. Made of advanced Stalinium alloy. 3. Has kerfuffle resistant armor.

Just because an engine is old doesn't inherently make it a bad engine. The Chevy small block is 70 years old now and companies are still producing new ones that have no problems doing about any task (within reason) a modern design does. As an engine enthusiast I have wondered just how many parts would interchange between a T34s engine and a T90s.

“Oh bugger, the LazerPig is on fire”

I appreciate your professionalism and tact as always. Love your content Chieftain!

Excellent insight into the debate/fight. I always enjoy your videos. I like the torsion bar example, and have wondered myself on how the U.S. developed it. Maybe someday we will have the answers.

I think that the Chieftain has a conspiracy to mention track tension in every video. :P

I think a good thing worth mentioning is that Red Effect both throughout, and especially at the beginning, made it clear that his video was in no way a personal attack on Lazer Pig, and that he didn't want his video to be a source or reason for hate towards LP. Despite this, it seems that in his response, LP seems to keep driving his audience to believe that this is clickbait youtube Drama, and multiple times claims that Red Effect is spouting Russian propaganda, all the while glossing over the points Red Effect made in his video, and downplaying his own mistakes rather than having a civil disagreement. A great example is the "Breakdown" of the T-14 during a parade. Red effect does a good job of pointing out how despite attempt's too tow the Armata with and engineer vehicle it wouldn't budge despite being only slightly heavier than most Russian Tanks. Eventually, without any repairs done too the vehicle, the driver is able to get back in the Tank and drive Away no problem. All of this was caught on Video and it would seems reasonable as Red effect argues that the Armata Driver made a mistake and activated the emergency break without realizing, and after realizing the mistake, deactivated it and drove away. Not only does video evidence seem to support this, but it seems the most reasonable explanation, and yet Lazer Pig rather than admit he was wrong, doubles down, and attempts to claim that Red Effects claim is using tactics of Russian Propaganda, and is meant to distort the truth....somehow. Lazer Pig even tries to appeal too the viewer's own sense of intelligence, insinuating that only some who was foolish or gullible would believe this parking break story...which is pretty Ironic since hes trying to use emotional manipulation to steer the viewer towards his side.

I would like to point out that the critique is more a symptom of society, in the USA at least, in general. Civil discourse has been replaced with personal attacks and demonization. Thank you to all contributors for the content and the sharing of thoughts. I appreciate the effort it takes to put these segments together. P.S. Maybe a Ukrainian farmer will be able to drag one off and make it available for the suggested teardown.

It was super weird too seeing how hostile lazer was towards red effect. I mean red literally said that he agrees mostly with lazer that the t-14 is not as good of a tank as the russians are portraying it as. He just wanted to point out alot of the mistakes he made while making that video. Especially the one about a literal tank having less torque than a commercial car.... Instead of taking that with stride, he called red yet another vatnik and tankie and tried to portray him as someone trying to start up drama for clicks. Yet red's was probably the most professional and well meaning refutation. Not to mention lazer decided he's a "real historian" and refused to cite his sources out of pettiness lmao

Thanks for this, and for continuing to be a source of level-headed reason. The best thing about this video is that these points apply to all topics and debates like this; the T-14 isn't really important here, in that sense.

I have always found you incredibly eloquent, entertaining, intelligent and knowledgeable. Keep up the good work!

Excellent video and an eminently sensible encouragement to a more rational approach to research and dialogue

On the subject of the torsion bar suspension, I ran into Tom Jentz at Aberdeen Proving Grounds, and we were talking (With Tom Jentz it was largely listening on your part), and he said the M26 suspension was based on the Panzer 3. I know he had practical experience with the M60 suspension, having been a M60 crewman. So, it seems that Jentz comes down on Dyer's side of the argument. Any thoughts?

Now I want to see you do a video on the origin of the current headlight switch so we can show how all US military vehicles are derived from this vehicle 😅

Loved your comments about the T-14 breakdown. Reminds me of the near universal decrial of turbo-electric drive in American battleships based on a single incident aboard Saratoga .

This vid needs to be shown in every school at every level day 1 As a side note you just gave me some inspiration for some worldbuilding in my sci-fi book I'm writing so cheers for that

How is it possible that my respect for Lt. Col. Moran keeps going up? This video is not just about the T-14 debate, it is about life. We waste so much time in our lives fighting over things that, in the grand scheme of things, really do not matter. Best regards, A Knight who formerly said Ni.

Even The Chieftian is in the game now. What a unexpected gathering of all the tank RU-vidrs. its all coming together.

FINALY!!! It feels like these days people just dont even know how to respond or even engage in a argument without personaly insulting and ridiculing the oposite side. Thank you for the level headed response.

The clear worship of lazerpig is obnoxious but not something i should be suprised by. He is heavily steeped in pro nato propaganda and redditors love that shit.

Me expecting a "Let's talk about the T-14 we know something about, the T14 heavy tank"