I'm just amazed by the ability of the bicycle industry to create new problems at a pace higher than their abilities to solve existing issues. Bottom brackets, headtubes vs integrated cables, fancy seatposts design, forks, ... This is in a context where bikes are heavier (disk brakes) and prices are exploding (groupsets). What amaze me even more is that people are willing to put even more money in a new bike without having been reassured about the resolution of those existing issues in the industry. Let's not forget that the bicycle market will collapse in the coming years. It has already begun but the worst is yet to come. Hold on to your hats, it's going to hit really hard. So imagine in that context how manufacturers will try to cut costs down. All of this will be a real mixture for catastrophic failures.
Why waste time solving engineering problems while marketing can sell you new ideas that have never been really tested or withstand the test of time! Just buy more! Disclaimer: **sarcasm**
@@leedorney disc brakes on MTBs or gravel, cyclocross makes sense, even for those that ride in the wet all the time. But for those descending the argument becomes tricky as it is not uncommon to wear the pads after a big descent and the rider was heavy on them, have wrapped rotors etc. Discs are CONDITIONALLY better on road, but thats about it, not a big selling point and will always be controversial as they do no fit all use cases, and most of the time are just added weight, creating duller ride bikes, that are stiffer on the seatstays and fork. Also their maintenance is a pain for most average Joe's and raise cost of ownership over time, its a big fail for the industry, as it drives people away from it.
@@TheRimBrakeGuy Disc brakes on road bikes are really a solution to having very expensive carbon rims that you don't want to wear down, especially in bad wheather. It moves the consumable from the rim to the rotor/brakepads. Decide for yourself whether that just makes sense or is asinine ;) And they do have a bit nicer braking behaviour than most rim brakes, but it's not like rim brakes were bad to begin with, on road bikes.
When I first saw this threaded carbon, you were the first person I wanted to hear from! Hope things work out soon for your shop, fingers crossed for you
Because accurate press fit costs more to manfacture than adding a threaded to less than perfect bores and a threaded bore is more effective than clean bores/press fit for bearing/cup retention.
@@veganpotterthevegan I have been riding top end steel bikes for 55 years, and never had a bike with an alignment issue. Look at the tool used to thread the BB, almost impossible to screw it up. However not using the correct tooling then you may have an issue.
I'm back 2000's bikes after all the 10k-15k bike I've been on. It's heaven. I can't love a bike for just the looks if it's giving me some kind of different headache every week.
Just built a cheap bike project for 500$ aluminum aero frame, aluminum wheels and Carbon fork. Cheap components and around 8.5 kg. The Colnago Concept I built has R8000 components with integrated BS on any of my bikes, cable brakes and shifters, easy to work on and access any cable I want. Cheap bike project i.ibb.co/tmkPNqP/bike.jpg
Press fit manufactured correctly is absolutely fine. I’ve had zero issues with my PF86. I replace it once a year with a Shimano part and it runs perfectly. No creaking, no grinding, nothing. The BB hole is in spec so I don’t even use retaining compound to take up any imperfections. Just a dab of grease to ease removing it next time. Some manufacturers put them in dry but I think grease is worth using. As for threaded carbon I don’t know, if they can get the engineering right it could be a genuine step forward but for me I’m totally happy with press fit. Maybe I just got lucky with my frame and got one that fell in spec.
Do you remember them days when new ideas were tested thoroughly before they'd hit the market? We now live in times where hype men who can read marketing blurbs (e.g. David A.) replaced QE men who can do proper testing before go live.
If the carbon threaded actually works well it would be great for a home mechanic like me. Shimano threaded BB are light, cheap, easy to fit and work really well.
Welcome back Raoul. Totally agree with your analysis. Just one comment on the particular approach chosen vis a vis pressfit. If pressfit gets a bad reputation due to problems with concentricity and parallel and angular misalignment, this system only addresses concentricity - assuming that the threaded carbon component is manufactured accurately in the first place. But if a manufacturer can't get a pressfit bb aperture axially aligned, why would they do any better when bonding in this threaded insert? Not a good solution!
Press fit has 10 x's the warranty returns compared to threaded BSA. You don't know what you are talking about. BB386 can be made to work just fine but press fit encompasses 'many' different configurations including Trek using 'pure carbon bore bearing surfaces'. Specialized struggled for '10 years' trying to get their warranty under control with their 61mm narrow version of both BB30 and PF30.
@@lukewalker1051 press fit is better when done right, but Specialized et al don't want to spend the money on proper QA. I bet the higher end Chinese carbon manufacturers (Winspace, Elves, etc) don't have the same magnitude of warranty issues with press fit. I also wouldn't be surprised if near shoring (Mexico) would be a better cost proposition for Specialized than doing good QA in China.
I have owned a Focus Raven Max Factory with press-fit bearings since the end of 2015. The series came with one from SRAM, which lasted about a year. Then I installed another one, which lasted a few months. Then one with interlocking aluminum shells, which also only lasted half a year. Then I discovered Token Ninja bearings made of aluminum with excellent standard bearings with a screw connection in the middle of the aluminum sleeves. Everything carefully installed with lots of Klüber Starburags PM 30 industrial bearing grease. Combined with a Cane Creek preloader on my SRAM crank. It has been quiet and smooth for three years. The bottom bracket costs €99. Top value for money.
Great to see you again! It would be great to see a video about the different grades of carbon used in frame manufacturing - T800, T1100, etc. What real-world difference does it make in the frame performance? Is the higher modulus carbon too brittle to be used for the entire frame construction? Does graphite and “nanotube” have any real benefits? Etc… Thanks
@@fieldlab4 Thanks Johan, LT has commented on different modulus carbon before but I have not seen any extensive content. I would think that there is some impact on using different modulus carbon in the frame construction. I’ve also heard a lot of conflicting information.
I don't think press fit is hated by the industry. Consumers decided they want threated BB because of the problems they experienced with press fit. The Threaded Carbon BB is an attemed to mitigate some of the problems that come with threaded BBs in carbon frames (weight, corrosion). I agree that proper implementation of press fit would have been the better way.
my thought behind it is that, yes a threaded interface has less precise tolerance requirements and therefore a the shell of a threaded BB can perfectly align the bearings relative to each other while the frame only has to align the threads roughly to the rest of the frame. but i dont see this risk of having the frame threads carbon being worth it, while they might not be stressed very much and likely have very short chopped strand fibers that could more randomly orient themselves, for longevity sake i would not feel comfortable with the ceracote protecting the bb getting galv corrosion and being impossible to remove. Overall i dont think its too much of an ask for manufacturers to get some bearing seats nice and accurate? plenty of ways to implement better quality control.
"Remedies" like this one remind me of certain German car manufacturers that used to over-engineer their equipment for decades, relying on the extremely high quality of their parts. However, when the "outsource everything!" mantra became the norm and bean counters started searching for Tier-2 and Tier-3 OEMs to manufacture the "same" part at a fraction of the cost, the quality of the final product started to deteriorate. This is no different from bicycle brands that often look for the cheapest supplier with hardly any quality control to produce complex parts. It was around the same time that PressFit bottom brackets began to gain popularity. No matter how great the concept is, if your Tier-2 supplier isn't up to par, customers will bear the cost.
First, welcome back! You’ve been missed! Second, Huh? I just don’t believe this marketing. If you can make a round hole, make it for a bearing. Carbon threads? Coatings? Sounds like more risk trying to hide behind fancy marketing. Nope….not interested…. Can’t wait to see what we learn from the pawns.
Was wondering about fiber orientation too. I see two options here: pressing a braided hose over a threaded mandrell or filling the mold with short fibers "forged carbon" style. That insert looks like said hose And why bother? Agree that it is a PR thing. If you make a round concentric pressfit, nobody would believe you. Especially when you come from Canada
Where have you been Hiding Raoul? It's a while since you enlightened us with your knowledge and creative critiscims!!! Glad to see you're well and back in front of the camera!!!!
I agree: pure marketing. I don't necessarily agree that press fit is inherently better, and I've never had any issues with threaded metal BBs, so I'll stick with what I know works.
Pressfit is better by definition. It has less parts so it's lighter, and the tolerance (gap) inherent to the threads means its physically impossible to have a better alignment than pressfit. The only problem is that pressfit have been sold improperly made in the bike industry for so long that the market is cynical.
As a former track sprinter, I've never had a press fit last 18 months on my road or mountain bike. I would seek out frames that were NOT press fit. That is until I discovered screw together PF like the Wheels Manufacturing. I'm sure there are other great brands as well, but that has been my solution when I like a bike, but always hated PF.
@@Gizmoimages One-piece BBs are press-fitted from the left-side of the frame and feature a flange only on the left to limit its travel. They only suit frames without permanent internal obstructions. BBInfinite and Hambini are the only brands that utilise such a BB structure.
Hi Raoul. I got to your site via a link from Hambini. We rode around the Hawthorn velodrome many years ago (2001? 2002?) and talked about your carbon fibre bike and the future possibilities for carbon fibre. It's good to hear from you again. Richard.
Nice to see you on screen again Raul. Hope the new workshop is up and running quickly. Threaded carbon just doesn't make any sense either. The whole idea of how a thread works is to tighten one against the other or make the threaded "shaft" part come flush against the face of the frame. Either way I don't see how carbon threads can be strong enough to enable "x" amount of Newtons in torque to be applied without something breaking. Very interesting stuff and would like to see work in the real world. If you've gone to the extent of making the threaded ring, why not make the bottom bracket a more solid piece then machine threads into that solid/thicker section of carbon and then alignment will not be a problem.
The best application with the lightest weight is direct fit bb. I've worked with Don G when he developed the process for the R5ca and the most difficult process was to determine the shrinkage. 11 years later with 150,000 km on the frame still works perfectly. Real engineering by real engineers made this work.
Richard Matthews was also part of the R5ca development and is likely the one behind this system. I personally have no inclination one way or the other, but maybe having an in-depth discussion would make for a good point-counterpoint video.
@@Torontoflatlander I think it’s just demand from consumers. Press fit is better if it’s done right for all the reasons that Raul outlines in this video. A lot of potential customers hear that a bike has a press fit BB and immediately want nothing to do with it.
@@rosss11111 I was talking direct fit not press fit. Just watched Hambinis video on this same product and he also said direct fit is where the industry should be going to.
Are you sure the threads are using a traditional layup with continuous fibers? Your thread diagram makes me think this is almost definitely done with compression molding and very short chopped strand carbon. I have no insider info here but that's how I would do it. Also, great point about why they did this instead of a press-fit. I think you're spot on that they just know the market hates press fit right now so even though this may not be the overall best solution, it might be the best engineering solution that the market will accept (I know I had never heard of this brand before this threaded carbon concept so the marketing is working).
Let’s face it CF frames are a hit and miss game. It all depends on manufacturer QC. Even the top frames have imperfect pressfit BB’s. For your average rider, aluminium frame set would be better.
So great to see you back Raul and thanks for covering this. It didn't make sense to me either when I read about it but it's good to hear your expert opinion. Speaking of which, I would really love to hear your thoughts on Cannondale's new SuperSix EVO Delta Steerer. Is it good design or scary? Thanks and hope you get your shop in order soon. Sorry you're still dealing with that.
I haven't seen one for real yet, only some pics, I am not a fan of any of the shaped steerer tubes, they often can't get a straight round tube without voids.
Yes, glad to see you back. I would hate to be the bike wrencher having to change out the BB. Perhaps it's designed for a one time install and forget. Good only for 2K miles. After the first BB is toast, call Hambini. He'll ream out the threads and insert a press fit.
Great to see you back Raoul the voice of common sense. Solutions marketed that are not in fact solutions……..again. Simple answer as you point out at 3.10. Good luck with the workshop reconfiguration 👍
The ideal fiber layout in a threaded interface is perpendicular but not symmetric. Remember when threading something in only one side of the triangle will be loaded.
Good to see you again. Hope you are able to make regular videos once more. Strange and somewhat disturbing times we are in. Yes,I saw the Carbon threaded BB and thought WHY!
i know i shouldnt say this but this is an other video which i know i will/should click "like" and share before i watch it because this video make sense🤣
Good to see you post. I think I speak for many if I say that there's appetite in the community for videos like these - an honest opinion on a technology. No need to have the workshop ready for that. As for the topic itself - the BS on the website says it all, doesn't it? 1. 'Lighter frame', yeah lighter to traditional threaded but same weight as a press-fit. 2. 'Reducing complexity' - again, compared to classic threaded. Compared to press-fit you're increasing complexity and potential failure modes. 3. 'No alignment issues' - you're really just admitting that you can't manufacture press-fit properly.
Always enjoy your videos Luescher. I fear we are putting the cart before the horse.... The real question is, has anyone actually ridden this bicycle yet? Walking around Sea Otter with a carbon mold is an interesting way to sell a bicycle.
I like threaded BB just because of the fact that I can work on it in my garage, without buying expensive tools and being afraid to misalign while servicing it.
interesting, but the plug isn't subject to the kind of torques that the BB is subject to. Once the stem is properly torqued, it shouldn't be experiencing really any torque AFAIK.
3 of the 4 road bikes i had between 2010 and 2021 were pressfit creak masters, so i assumed it was a flawed system nook matter how many versions were introduced. I could have easily drank this latest cool aid, especially considering the alloy bike i had up to 2010 had the standard british screw in BB which was far more reliable, and quiet.
Hey buddy. Great to hear from you. I was afraid you had gotten tiered of us. Sorry to hear about your troubles. Have had a number of them myself. The world has gone nuts. Anyway i subscribed and am ready for more.
Mister Luescher I was working in a bike shop like mechanich, one day come a customer beacuse his BB make sound, I toke his bike and the next day I use the bike and that´s right the BB make sound, I call to the brand of the frame and the solution that they gove me was LOCTITE 686 if my mind is correct, I thought to my self; "WHAT? are you giving to me LOCTITE a glue to put un a BB ", at that moment told to the client that it was better make a service in the brand of the bike... For that I willl never buy a pressfit bb to myself or say to anybody that buy something like that. Best regards.
Ahhh... it's good to finally see your face and hear your voice. I must say that you are dead on target when you say: why don't they just engineer a press-fit solution. It should also be possible to do by applying the mandrel method IMO. Anyways good to see content again and best of luck with your new workshop. 👍
Yes! It is sad people just assume press fit is terrible when it’s really just people accepting bad QC. I’ve never had an issue on my 7 year old parlee with a press fit
Pressfit is the way to go. Got pressfit on my 2015 Canyon. 87k km done and still riding the original BB with no problems at all. Anytime I have an issue with a BB it's on a threaded bike.
Yeah your point is spot on. The problem with press-fit bottom brackets is poor manufacturing and if they can manufacture carbon fiber threads that work for a threaded bottom bracket then they can make the best press-fit bottom bracket anyone has ever experienced.
Nice to see you back. Personally I love PF. But regarding the strength of the structure wouldn't the mating thread from the threaded BB provide the strength to this BB portion of the frame? After tightening the loads through this area wod be perpendicular wouldn't they? Cross threading may be more of an issue as the structure would be destroyed and could not be recovered?
Interesting drawing of the fibre direction. In the left diagram that you proposed is better, the fibre would kink significantly as it turns to join the bore. Seems like that would compromise all the strength. Did you think about that?
If the thread is made out of carbon, that will not last long. This happened on paintball community before and threads started to fall apart over time. Carbon fiber is too weak for this type of application.
Hey Raoul! I'm wondering to what degree you think the layup problem could be avoided if they moved to a coarser thread? This obviously requires custom BBs but potentially that would be a welcome tradeoff for the kind of high end/niche customer they're after. Cheers, Andrew
My initial thought is that the threaded shell would be some other material, amorous carbon fiber using finely chopped fiber, or just pure high strength epoxy of some kind, etc. I also agree that press fit should have become a standard because of the obvious advantages and inherently superior design, more typical of the standards in other more demanding industries and applications.
I'd be worried about the BB unit threading welding itself to the carbon threads, with, as you say, the tiny tool engagement offered by most manufacturers. At least with an aluminium shell insert, if it becomes galvanically attached to the BB unit, you can destructively remove the BB without harming the frame (too much).
yesnt, was developed by King & Argnonaut who does Carbon bikes but it quickly fell into the hands of metal builders doing internal cable routing which makes 100% sense
Santa cruz has been doing this on their MTB bikes for years without bigger problems. edit: ok I misunderstood. I never thought they would ditch the shell. wtf is going on...(???) Seems like such a bad idea.
Just jumping on the next trend imo. People love that kind of stuff. My bb86 pressfit has been problem free for over 30,000km's. Not one creak. Can only presume the manufacturer of my frame did a good job of getting the BB holes nice and round and in alignment.
Carbon is soft as cheese, it’s a terrible material for threading stuff into and I would imagine the Corrosion will be much worse because you have thin aluminium thread across a larger surface area in contact with raw carbon. 🤷🏻♂️
There are some BB's where you can tighten the BB internally, not using the external flange on the outside of the bike. Not sure if any exist for T47 though.
no solution for no problem yet genius: For the budget they saved for otherwise attracting similar attention and brand recognition they can offer very generous guarantees of full frame replacement If you want to make a bike brand known - talk something weird about BB.
so why can't the industry do a better pressfit bb?? Is it because of the cost of production? is it the in-field failure? I have read many stories of pressfit bb cracking, or creaking after bearing replacement, and it's probably due to the bb shell either cracking inside or expanding enough to create cracks, and this means warranty cost for the manufacturer. Sure if pressfit is cheap to product, and does not give warranty issue, then big manufacturers would not be abandoning it?
I dont think this is a "traditional" layup. It's not carbon fibre in the sense that we know it of layup and resin. I think the threads are some kind of molded composite material, distinct from the more traditional fibre layup of the shell behind it. I don't have the composites knowledge to know what that molded material is, but functionally I don't believe it's really that different to the bonded aluminum shells that are common, only with a composite in place of the aluminum. Which being in-molded has some structural advantages.
Let me get this straight. You don't have the knowledge but your enlightening all of us with your empty B.S. discourse. I think you're suffering of the Dunning-Kruger effect.
@@sylvainmichaud2262 pretty much 😊. As I stated, it's just some guessing about what they're doing, since they're not very forthcoming about their process.
Just imagine some heavy handed mechanic using a big old wrench to fit the BB, just a bit more...a bit more.. a bit more.. BAM!!! oh... no more threads... all I can say is "less than ideal"... A perfectly concentric BB shell the BB will slide in no issues and won't creak if fitted correctly. I mean what's the problem that needs solving, it's not using threads, it's get the hole concentric in the first place.
Think you hit the nail on th head. I thought they went to threaded so they could machine up inserts to fix alignment issues and non round holes. Now they are bonding threaded carbon inserts in....makes no sense to me 😂. So, the alignment on those ones is going to be vastly superior? 🤦🏻♂️. Just do pressfit ffs. There's nothing wrong if done right.
