the fetishization is particularly gross because there’s a very large community of underage goths and they end up getting sexualized. it makes me and so many other people very uncomfortable. i am 17 and the amount of times i’ve been called a “goth mommy” by adults on the internet is disgusting.
I remember seeing my then 16 year old friend get called 'goth mommy' whilst doing a cosplay vid. Then the person kept arguing with everyone in the comments that they weren't 'sexualising them' and stuff like that.
After 19 years of identifying with the punk, hardcore, metal, and goth subcultures (these spaces often mingled together out of necessity because growing up in the Upper Midwest was like that), when I started to understand how capitalist dynamics replicated itself into countercultures that were once considered to be fringe/against the mainstream, and how the explosion of the culture & identity industry is providing corporations fertile ground for the market to continue expanding and generating profits, I gave up counterculture.
@@ThomasWake1people not participating and contributing to community diminishes community. There have always been people that adopt an aesthetic they appreciate without living a the specific lifestyle, adhereing and valuing its politics or engaging with or maintaining relationships -albeit from lack or access or time. Don’t blame the death of a scene or subculture on social media. A subculture or scene is many worth it if a watered down representation on social media is all it takes to dilute the real thing
Girl, I'm Goth in my mid 30s and the harrassment from men, including really young guys wanting a "goth gf" has become too much. I have a type im attracted to and its not a regular random dude. I dunno about you, but elder goths grew up being tough and had to learn to fight. As a woman in a major US city, I carry at LEAST a switchblade because im not here to be harrased by ANYBODY including goth men creeps!!!
Yeah I usually dress in black and people call me goth. There is goth music I like bit I wouldn't say I'm goth. Back in the day I was emo. People called me goth. I'd say I'm more punk than goth bur people see the black clothes and think goth.
as an alt looking person the fetishization is absolutely insane. I've been referred to as a "big titty goth gf" or "goth mommy" since I was 15. very uncomfy
Unfortunately, the generation of goth girls before you sexualized themselves. Go to a goth club one day. You'll see the entire subculture has become that way.
@@FoxGameCZso true. I was called names and picked on in school for being well read but wearing black all the time. So the fact I wasn’t an ideal “body type” (thank eff for that) I didn’t get picked on in a sexual manor. So it does irl me this is still going on certain people find it okay to say sh*T like this to actually kids. If I could be summoned to kick a creep I would love that power because I didn’t feel good being picked so I know dang well other are going to feel the same and or even worse.
To be a goth you need to listen to the music. We have to stop with this weird need to claim a label and bend it to what you want instead of respecting this thing that already exists. We don't read gothic literature at clubs, we listen to music from an umbrella of genres. A lot of clubs don't require you to dress up in all black, you just have to be respectful and there to enjoy the music. There are clubs that establish a dress code for fun and/or to keep out people who are only interested in gawking or fetishizing goth people.
Hello! Yeah this is an interesting point - if one continues to lower the criteria of what it means to be goth eg not required to listen to the music, does it water down the substance of the goth movement?! I suppose you could argue it does, because the goth movement is so deeply intwined with its unique sound! I appreciate you giving your thoughts on the matter - Goth clubs sound like an awesome safe space for Gothic people to express themselves how they please :)
@@CalDoesLifeI appreciate your response, and for being so open-minded and respectful when you present these topics. I'm wary of people who cover this stuff, because often it's either just plain mean (to baby bats and older goths) or filled with absolutely no research. Glad neither of those are part of your channel. :)
@@Aster_Risk Thank you for your kind words! I really do try to come at it from both sides, so that no party within the Goth community gets demonised. I found researching the Goth community the most fun I have had whilst making a video!
I agree. Goth is a music-based subculture. How are you a goth if you just like the literature? Sure you’re participating in the lifestyle but at the end of the day you’re not goth.You’re just someone who likes gothic literature.
As someone who's been into goth for almost 10 years, I promise we only dress like that 5-10% of the time and like others have said, all you need to be goth is to enjoy the music!
There a ton of cute memes about goths without makeup! looking that good is NOT a dayly undertaking pvc doesn’t BREATH respect for goths in hot climates.
I literally have 2, 3 dressstyles, I dress up all pink and literally cute clothes, and tradgoth (also punk but I don't count it sometimes cause tradgoth) but I'm still a goth and punk. No because I like pink I am not punk, I listen to the music, have the ideology and my clothes are all either home made or thrifted (I guess is how you write it) and people always make me apart, I always say I like to go X bar where punks usually hang out, and they just tell me; Why you will go there? Is not your style. Like... Do you know my style really?
Ahhh thank you for your 10 years service in the goth-core! That is interesting to hear that so many goths here feel you dont need to dress in a gothic way to be a goth!
@@CalDoesLife also 'goth-core' is not a real term xD it is either just goth or goth community or goth subculture based on the context. goth core is the tiktokification of that
90's Goth girl here, now a Goth mom of two adults. I'm literally wearing a Siouxsie Sioux shirt right now. Some of us never outgrow it, I saw Love & Rockets and Skinny Puppy last year with my oldest. Thanks for making this video, I love seeing young people getting into the Goth scene.
80’s goth/punk here I recently tried to change to become ‘normal’ it was hard work & I give up hated it even dyed my hair a normal brown no can do I’m glad to be back me!
I feel so bad for my bestie. She went from being bullied in school, now to oversexualized as an adult enjoying her same style. Just let people exist and enjoy what they enjoy.
It’s frustrating to me that all the alt/emo/goth kids got bullied by the same guys/girls who fawn after or dress in our styles. Now EVERYONE has nose pericings but those same girls made fun of my friends for having them. In a way, it’s cultural appropriation
@CalDoesLife worse has happened, Sophie Lancaster was murdered for it and her bf attempted murder. Was in the UK by like 15 Yr old to 18 Yr old boys. People associate goth with fetishism and bdsm which is a big part of why they want a goth gf.
I respectfully am sorry this happened to you people can be horrible and I hope that you are ok and I’m glad ignorance and depravity of the world hasn’t robbed you of your strength
We also need to talk about goth elitism. And how people feel the need to box themselves into one singular aesthetic. I'd consider myself goth, I LOVE the music and history and politics behind the goth subculture. But I also have a special place in my heart for my emo days, listening to MCR and PTV and FOB and such. AND I love punk music, and metal music. And classic rock, some pop, hell even some country from growing up in a rural area. I dress in dark clothes most of the time, but I don't have the energy anymore for tradgoth styles. And sometimes I like to wear pretty black dresses that have flowers on them 😂 life is too short to box yourself in to just one look, just one music genre
Yes this is such a great take ! You don’t have to just play a character! I think the fun thing of the human experience is like freedom to think and do , try different things! It is nice to hear of a goth who aligns themself with the politics/history etc but will happily get amongst other genres of music. Thank you for commenting
Honestly I feel like it's mainly babybats who do this, believing that they can only listen to goth rock and nothing else. Much like how most goths don't dress super decked out everyday, so too do goths listen to other genres like Taylor Swift (that's a genre, right?).
I could not agree more! I've been into the goth subculture since I was 15 (am 25 now) and at the same time I also discovered metal. I also really dig americana/country music a lot. As a baby bat I used to think I would need to fit into one of the visual goth styles, but I found myself liking so many different ones, so I end up just wearing whatever I feel that day. This means one day I can dress full romantic goth and the other day look like some dark gothy cowboy 😂 These days I don't give a fuck about fitting in boxes because that's the opposite of what we should be doing as the non conforming misfits we are (I say this lovingly 🖤). Just be yourself and enjoy expressing yourself, this overthinking kills creativity :(
Agree 100%! My mum's a goth since the 80s and has (obviously?) been my introduction to goth as a subculture, including the style and the music. It has always been about the music and a certain outlook on life that came with it. Even in the 80s there have been goths that took the whole thing to a new level like "You can't be goth if you listen to anything but post punk" or "You have to have your fair and style like this or you're not a trve goth!" when the whole thing has never been about trying to bend over backwards all the time to fit a narrative. I can be and am goth - even if I listen to emo or occasionally even pop music. I'm also still a goth if I dress more 'socially acceptable' because of my day job. Why TF should I put myself in one box if there isn't room enough for all of me? xD
I wouldnt say i ever was into the Goth crowd (other than when I wore a lot of black baggy gear in my teen nú metal period 😅). As much as they have become rather reviled nowadays, one good thing emo did was evolve the scene to somewhere more positive. The 90s was not always the best time for Goth. Sure you had marilyn manson, type ó negative and all that fun stuff, but you also had the black metal church burnings and the neo nazi crowd trying (as usual!) to make inroads into another predominantly white subculture. And i noticed it was on the verge of going thd way of the skinhead movement. But interestingly, it has been able to evolve in a way skinheadism could not, so it kind of became á way for Goths of all generations to say they sent the Nazis packing and stood proud of their identity. And as an outsider í kinda like that.
Sooooo I’ve literally been goth since I was a child, I grew up within the subculture and the music, literature and overall art tied to it. My parents introduced me to it when I was literally five. The ‘’style’’ is just a bonus in my eyes, the fact that you are allowed to express yourself without judgement, and I really dislike that it’s been boiled down to purely simple aesthetics. I don’t wear ripped fishnets, a bunch of chains or use super heavy eye makeup (not ripping on that, because I do genuinely think it looks cool.) but it’s sad to see that goth has been boiled down to what has essentially become a profitable, cookie-cutter style for large corporations that’s easy to swallow and accept for people, not to mention sexualize. People who dress more traditional goth and what I associate with it (see Siouxsie, for example.) will still be made fun of because it’s too extreme for mainstream media to swallow. People have questioned me actually being goth because I don’t dress like how it’s been boiled down to in the recent years. The same thing happened to punk as well, it became profitable for large clothing chains, and essentially, lost all of its actual meaning and why people even is a part of the subculture and, ultimately, the lifestyle. Back to the sexualisation part, I have had so many uncomfortable experiences the recent years because of the whole “goth gf/dommy mommy” when I was literally bullied by the same people back in elementary and middle school. When people (and I’m sorry, I have had more bad experiences with men regarding this.) meet me for the first time, many of them have cracked jokes about me being a goth girlfriend and how ‘’hot’’ I am, they don’t see me as an actual person with actual interests and thoughts.
Ahhhh I really appreciate you giving your first hand insight into the matter! Born goth is so interesting, being exposed to the movement from so young, you must have some interesting insights & stories! I agree with you, it is sad that members of the goth or punk movements have to be ‘social media ready’ and by that i mean look the stereotypical ways for people to consider them actual members of their communities. Thank you for commenting!
@@CalDoesLife No problem! I really don’t want to come off as bitter or like I’m gatekeeping. I just really wish people understood and at least knew about the actual history of goth, and its roots. As much as it’s about music and art, it also has political ideologies directly influenced by the early punk movement. Back in the day, we had to DIY all of our stuff because we didn’t want to contribute to fast fashion and the harm capitalism cause. I just find it ironic how many younger people (not all, of course!) think they’re making a difference by dressing differently when they are feeding money into big corporations that I directly blame for stripping goth of all of its core meaning in the recent years. I’m conflicted, because on one hand, I think it’s great that alternative clothing is more accessible. But on the other, I feel like it just contributes to the cookie cutter, social media ready style that’s easy to digest and accept, while people who decide to dress more heavily will still be ridiculed for being ‘’too extreme’’ or not aesthetically pleasing to the eye.
@@isthecarpetcomfortable9410 i do not think this comes across bitter or gatekeeping at all. You are expressing your concerns because you care about the Goth movement! I think they are valid concerns, I think why young minds may fall into the pitfalls of buying commercialised versions of the goth aesthetic is because they have not thought of the totality of their decisions. But I do not blame them, when i was a teen emo i was not thinking about the knock on effects of my spending habbits I just ordered knock off band tees on ebay etc. I think if more senior members of The goth community made tiktoks showing new goths how to ethically source their clothes etc, that could be a big help to combat consumerism etc! I appreciate you sharing your thoughts on the matter :)
Well put! Replies and all. It’s the music, the history, the culture and THEN the clothing aesthetic. When I say culture, I also mean the punk political outlooks mentioned above. Hence goth being post-punk. Being a part of a subculture means knowing WHY you’re a part of that scene. An aesthetic is not a subculture. It’s an aesthetic.
With that said. ANYONE can be goth. “Punk is for all unless you are not for all” also applies to post-punk/goth. As long as you are willing to learn from and respect others then you’re cool :)
So I'm a second-gen bat. My mom was goth in the 80s/90s, and I've been goth since the mid/late 10s, and there's a few points I'd like to make from both personal experience and stories from my mom's days. First, goth fashion is not expensive, and does not have to exist anywhere close to the realm of fast fashion ideas of goth style. There's a number of aesthetics within the goth community, whether it's nu-goth, trad goth, romantic, etc. While there are styles that lean more into heavy accessories and intricate clothing items, generally you can find a wide variety of clothing that fits into the idea of a "goth aesthetic" in secondhand stores (including online). Large majority of my clothes are $1-$20 range, a lot of which has been obtained through searching for hours in thrift shops around my city as well as keeping tabs on different Mercari searches (as well as occasionally other apps/websites, but you have to know what to search). The ONLY expensive thing I've ever bought for myself was new Demonias a couple years ago, and I bought them at the goth shop in my city partially bc I love the owner and I wanted to support local while splurging. I've NEVER had someone try to claim I'm "not actually goth" despite not wearing largely decorative and flashy expensive clothing or having dramatic makeup. Goth is not, nor has it ever been, a fashion race. It isn't "I have the most bondage-style clothing". Most of my hand-me-downs from my mom are local metalwork bracelets and rings, and a few sturdy long black skirts. It's always been the music, and in our modern world the music is more accessible than ever. What people consider "goth" music is a wide variety of music, and goth classics fall into a few categories now (plus, you can listen to other music AND goth music). Basically, goth is a counterculter/subculture born out of directly a music scene. It is in itself a defiance of expectations for popularization. You could be a goth star in the old days and get called a "poser" now for just existing. Fuck it, I remember a post floating around a minute ago calling Robert Smith a poser. Look. It doesn't matter what people argue over. At the end of the day, if you're really goth, the infighting doesn't matter, and you're just gonna be happy listening to music and waiting for October to roll around so you can finally get new bed sheets. That's all it is, at the end of the day.
Srsly the majority of my most "gothy" clothes are basics that I either thrifted or sewed myself. It's nice to get something tailored from an ETHICAL goth/alt brand every once in awhile (I typically just buy jewelry) but the reality is that now that I'm older and in a career I need more casual cut clothes that can be modified with accessories. Even my costume clothes that I wear for events/fun tend to be basics that I can mix, match, and layer.
There's gen bats? 😮. That sounds sarcastic but it's really not 🙂❤ Ok, so I too, took after my Mom too. She was late 70s/80s goth. I was born in 86 (I'm old. I know 🫤) and started borrowing my Mom's clothes at 12 or 1998ish. What gen does that make me? Am I first gen but my Mom's decade is considered OG? Sorry but my ADHD just got triggered and now I'm fixated on where I fall 😅
I dated a guy who had a thing for “goth girls.” Me being punk/goth, you’d think I’d be exactly what he wanted. He loved my aesthetic, yes, however I’d see him constantly like and repost pictures of e-girls, which really upset me. Overall, I was unhappy in the relationship and the way he treated me so I broke things off. Since then, he’s further fetishized goth girls in such a disgusting manner, when once again, he truly means e-girl. He even went as far as to say that “no goth girls live in this city.” And I was like…okay. Don’t ask for what you can’t handle 🤷♂️
This, this is it. Open honesty here: Thanks to this vid I decided to check out Goth music. Being a teen in the 90s and as someone who did occasionally go to Hot Topic I was aware of the Goth aesthetic, but never fully delved into that culture (though I've always been "adjacent" to it) but thanks to the comments under this vid I'm now aware that it's tied to a music style. Something I've noticed though, is the lack of recent bands. I started to ask myself questions about what recent bands would be considered Goth with this new info but I just couldn't find the right words for how to describe it. Was Voltaire Goth? What about Sleep Token? Ghost? So thank you for your description, although right now I'm currently sitting on the answer of "potentially yes, maybe" for Ghost and Sleep Token, Voltaire not so much as he's just Jhonen Vasquez levels of edgelord with his music most of the time.
@@84warhead so none of those bands are considered goth. Goth music is gothic rock and it originally came from post punk. If you are talking about more modern goth bands She Wants Revenge is a really good band.
I think one of the reasons people think the music is important is because of the community that came with attending shows and events. I think that’s one of the biggest things about these groups is that they are open to everyone but you have to learn from others in the community. It’s something that makes it special compared to so many others
Oh lord, I remember clubbing and having 'club tourists' come up and really, actually, genuinely ask stupid stuff like 'are you one of those sexy death chicks like from Suicide Girls'...
goth IN MY OPINION is the combination of all 3, art literature and musical style. an entire lifestyle comprised of several elements working together. adapting an alternative way to enjoy the world again by learning all the history that lays before us. vampires are associated with eternal life & nothing epitomizes that more than becoming more worldly and educated. its okay if you find it from the fashion style but you're only doing yourself a disservice by not participating in more of the elements together, because you already must be interested in it and just arent letting yourself try it.
I'm super late to the party, but to make this clear; Goth and Gothic are two different things when we're on this topic. If you listen to the music, then you're goth, if you dress in the fashion and or enjoy the literature and content connected to that, you're gothic. It's much the way you can't be a metalhead unless you listen to metal; or, as someone here in the comments said, a Swiftie without listening to Taylor Swift. You can enjoy the aesthetic and be Gothic, there's nothing wrong with that at all; I'd called myself gothic before I got into the music as I adored the literature, but in order to be just goth, all you 'have' to do is listen to and enjoy the music. I've seen people claim it's gatekeeping, which I found a tad strange. Goth is music based; Gothic is everything else. Same with emo, metalheads, etc. I personally don't care, call yourself goth, it doesn't effect me at all, though that's the only "requirement" to "truly call yourself that".
I identify as Punk-Goth cause I dress punk (and am very active politically) but I listen to goth music I always thought that Goth was a music based subculture that was based on the dark and mysterious while Punk was a Politically based subculture yk?
From what I have seen a lot of Goths online would also argue that Goth is a political movement (linked to punk ideologies of-course) It is an interesting topic for sure though, as some members of the goth community put the most importance on the music, others on the aesthetic and some are very vocal on the politics side of things. I appreciate you commenting your experience of being Punk-Goth!
I have been into both goth and punk music since 1986. I would go to a punk club one night to see bands and then the next night I would go to an alternative/goth club to dance. I was given way more shit from the uber goobers at the goth clubs than I ever got in punk spaces. So, I have always had one foot planted in each subculture.
While punk is more outwardly political, I never believed that goth was meant to be a-political: I simply do not believe you can be goth and, say, pro-conservative (because to be the latter you have to support the status quo and hierarchies and goths tend to not like those things lol). In fact, over the last month or.so there was the emergence of r/conservativegoths on Reddit and that sub has been the laughing stock of r/goth AND r/punk ever since. And even among goths there's heated discussions about whether goth=only music because there has to be some common threads that tie us together or else we wouldn't be a sub*culture*. And the irony is that while people contend that goth is apolitical - which would imply "anything goes" - there aren't really any out-and-about fascist/conservative bands in goth rock like how there are in punk (even if racist skinheads are often on the perimeter) industrial, and metal scenes. All I can think of is Radio Werewolf and people often ask for similar bands so they won't support them lol.
I've been goth for years and to get into the goth Discord, I was asked stuff like "what's your least favorite Joy Division song?" I don't know that lmao, I had to go find out! And they only accept goth music from the 70s and 80s... that's going to be how goth dies!!
Ahhh yeah that is not inclusive at all if they put a time cap on the music - they need new bands to keep making gothic style music otherwise it dies unfortunately
@CalDoesLife Exactly!! I absolutely adore The Cure, but there's only so many times I can listen to them before I want to know about what's new out there.
Nongoths always want a goth girlfriend until they realize that she actually has goth interests. They don't actually want a goth girl, they want a girl in a cosplay.
the one thing i've noticed that bothers me is that there's no more "subculture" to goth and it's purely become just an aesthetic. the goths from 10-30 years ago were bullied immensely and usually didn't have much community aside from online. today, the goths ARE bullies because they only care for the aesthetic and the fact that it's cute now. and that's why a minimal level of gatekeeping IS necessary because at this point.. there is no true meaning to the subculture. and that's what a lot of original goths/punks have an issue with. there's so much more to goth and punk and other alternative subcultures that younger people aren't picking up on. Things have very much become very surface level and vain these days and so are the subcultures that went directly against it!!!
I really want to agree with you on the gatekeeping point. It's just hard to draw a line. A little gatekeeping to keep the true meaning in place could be extreme to the next person not to mention the trolls are in every single scene now
I used to work at a goth/metal bar and club before I moved for uni, I now frequent an emo club where all the goths, emos...etc in the city go. People don't complain or care about what 'true goth' is irl. Most of the people in those clubs don't fit the narrow definition the internet has put on to the word. There are trad goths and older alternative people (35+) there, there are 18-year-olds with 'e-girl' makeup, men in skirts with massive eyeliner, people just in a t-shirt and pants, nonbinary gerard way emos, married couples going there for nostalgia, and of course, there's a guy called 'lord pigeon' who's in his 60s and shows up wearing a cape with a stuffed bird on his head and full theatre-makeup. They aren't 'posers', they aren't 'not valid'. We all are alternative people there to get pissed and dance to some disturbed. I myself look alternative, but not as extreme as those weirdos online want me to be. So, yeah, all of this internet discourse has never passed by me irl. Irl alternative clubs and communities are very loving and a place of no-judgement. They look out for eachother and I feel much safer there at night than anywhere else. I highly doubt any of the people imposing 'makeup and outfit laws' have ever actually been in the real-life alternative community, because if they had, they'd know it's a place where we accept eachother. It has more LGBT presence than the gay bars down the street. We accept eachother, we dress how we want, and we have fun. Edit: I hate the idea that just because somebody dresses like an 'e-girl' or a 'normie' or whatever, that that means they're a poser, or not allowed to label themselves. I know so many (and I mean a lot) of people who love, 'e-girl' fashion, who are intrenched into the music scene. Whether that be emo or goth. I am not a goth, I'd honestly call myself a weird mix with a preference for emo and metal. But, I think most people feel like that, most people aren't tied to one genre. That's why sometimes I despise the labels in the community.
i think ur right about a lot of this, most of the 'goths' and 'punks' ive met don't go around talking about how goth they are or how theres so many posers, they talk about the things they enjoy and what they do etc, yknow, like normal ppl who have normal conversations. i do agree theres a point in identifying the original countercultures but they blend into each other so often nowadays that it feels almost pointless. the 'goth community' doesnt exist, ur individual communities do, and they're the ones that matter. if you and your friends all love goth literature and music and wear the aesthetic traditionally and mod your own clothing then the culture lives so long as u hold onto what matters about it instead of worrying about what some random e-girl is doing on tiktok.
It's always been "you need to listen to the music to be goth" etc., and this applies to all mainly/mostly MUSIC based subcultures, nothing more, nothing less🧍🏾. The fashion is just the cherry on top. And the sexualization of pretty much every aesthetic women are apart of is so tiring, and its even worse when it's affecting those underage.
@@CalDoesLife really depends on the genre, pop for example is way too broad to have an aesthetic attached to it, but hip-hop and rap do because they have a specific group for people that it originated from! Same with metal, rock, most music genres have a look attached to it, just the importance of the look differs
as a post punk, new wave, early 80's dark artistic culture enjoyer, i find myself a quite a goth. i was raised in an enviorment with subcultures like punks, goths etc. or people that were in a subculture someday, i really empathize with that. the thing is, i think most subcultures are not a certain style or aesthetic but thats a group or people who inpire eachother and create art, new views on the world and create their culture. personally, i think modern ,,goth e-girl,, thing and stuff like that is just the same thing as cultural appropriation. also wanted to say, i love ur vids and i really respect the way you talk about subcultures :D
Hello there! Your enviroment you were raised in sounds very interesting! I think stuff like e-girl/e-boy is just very commercialised palatable versions of alt-movements. But that is not me dogging on them, as I understand young people may use the e-girl/boy aesthetic to express themselves on the path to self discovery! I appreciate your kind words! Thank you :)
@@CalDoesLife obviously, i support young people exploring their style and belonging in a subculture! in my opinion the cultural appropriation thing mostly touches these big corporations taking an anti-capitalistic movement culture and getting money out of it :)
Choosing to wear white face paint and black and listening to Siouxsie and the Banshees is not the same as having your people murdered and imprisoned for their skin color and then their clothing and language systematically destroyed. Cultural appropriation requires that the members of that culture to actually be oppressed for something they can’t help.
It is really sad to see 100%. I think the confusion and mix up of different subcultures honestly comes from a lack of mainstream education on them. So when a regular person sees someone with a slightly dark aesthetic they are like GOTH?!
youre so right about the sexualisation of goth/alternative women and it all being lumped together for the goth gf trope. im 21 now but even during school, like ages 13-16, i had people in my CLASSES make disgusting comments at me, as well as awful questions like "is it true goth girls are kinky?", coming from people i didn't even know. so disgusting that even as young teen i was sexualised for the way i dressed by peers in person, as well as adult men online who should've known better. i have never been goth either, i've always been emo so it always baffled me being called a goth girl/being asked to be someones goth gf.
im not goth but have been called goth and been oversexualized by people because i like to wear fishnets, chunky eyeliner, big shoes, and black/white clothes. i don't like fast fashion for the obvious ethical reasons, but i do like how it allows young people to explore aesthetics. i think its good for developing an identity and sense of self to explore aesthetics and find a personal style - as long as you're not claiming to belong to a subculture i guess
It is such a shame that this is the common experience for people who present alternatively. I really agree with you as-long as people do not claim to be like GOTH LORD OR PUNK SUPREME etc, trying different aesthetics can be a very validating process for people.
@@CalDoesLife it is a shame, and it's scary too, esp since a lot of the sexualization is towards young people. and yes exploring is definitely a validating process... and i dont know if this is true, but i feel like teens/young adults (me included) are looking for validation more than past generations? or maybe it's just more mainstreamed bc of social media
around 12:22 when you were talking abt how most people who want a goth gf just want an e girl, literally so true. my old friend used to hang out with some douchey guys from our school (like racist sexist and homophobic guys) and so by proxy occasionally i would hang out w em too. we were on a video call, and for context im an emo trans guy. i was vaguely dressed up, just had eyeliner on and one guy said "(deadname), would you be my goth dommy mommy?" it was half jokingly but it was just odd and creepy and they kept saying that to me and my friend all night :P
Thank you for leaving your first hand experience on this! It is a shame how desensitised people have become to saying heinous things to others - I am sorry to hear you had to go through this, but I wish you all the best for the future :)
I feel that to be goth you must love the artistry. The music or poems or books or comics or architecture or clothes or movies or anything else, not just for the aesthetic or it, but love it for the history of it. Understand why and how it was made. The meaning. The backstory. History of the diy clothes. History of the architecture. History of the paintings. History of the books. Edit: I say diy clothes because I see that as art and meaning (even if the meaning is being too poor to buy it, it still speaks to your history and how goth helped form you). I do not see fast fashion as art.
i like when you drop random bits of lore about yourself in video topics make it feels more real the only gothic (?) media ive consumed and enjoyed were the addams family, coraline and castlevania personally
I was emo from 2007 to about 2018, where I started to get more into the goth subculture, i was cat-called by adults when I was 12, ive gotten so many gross comments from strangers in real life and online. Ive yelled at my friends for saying shit like " i want a goth mommy " or various other inappropriate remarks towards women within the subculture, we are all very tired of it, and i really think some of these content creators who sexualize themselves add to it, because its feeding into these widespread male fantasies. It breaks my heart too, because the young kids that want to be goth, or alt in some way, wind up thinking that they have to do that to be accepted, or they wind up getting assaulted by adults who are only there to be predatory. It all makes me want to become a shut in, but as an adult in the subculture its partially my job to keep the younger ones safe.
Other people call me goth because I'm heavily inspired by the fashion but I'm not super into the music so it's not a label I identify with. When people ask me what my style is I just go "alternative" at best ✌🏻😙
Honestly yeah I get that, someone asked me if I still consider myself emo these days and I was like no just alternative if you want to give it a label!
As someone who's been making content about these subjects for over 10 years, I really appreciate your perspective and I think there were some great insights here. I think the recurring theme in this video around the social context in which goth currently resides, grappling with its history, engendering a sort of identity crisis was spot on.
TBH being a goth of color, people already have weird ideas about me in general. I'm gay, I'm married, I have a kid, I'm middle aged but short so people think I'm younger for some reason. I ALSO have social anxiety. It's super difficult to just, exist? Would be super cool if people spoke to alternative folks in general as if we were, you know, people. I do other hobbies like cosplay and there's similar issues there but there's a saying in that one: cosplay is not consent. The way someone dresses is not consent to disrupt, disrespect, harass, verbally or physically assault, or otherwise demean them. In any style.
I appreciate the points you make about something not necessarily being goth, but "gothic". I fall into that category of being a metalhead with a decent handful of gothic interests and aesthetic choices, but id never outright call myself a goth because i dont think i personally listen to enough of the music. I know an array of people that are genuine goths (my auntie being an old school 80's goth for one) and its great getting to share common interests with them and learn from them about the subculture because i respect it so much as an influence on who i am. Great video, have really been enjoying your content since i discovered or recently - keep up the great work!
I appreciate your insight! Yeah I think i am clearly seeing now that people can be gothic in nature but not classified as goths which is fair! Also thank you for your kind words!
I firmly stand with the fact that goth is a music-based subculture. A lot of people believe that mindset is elitist but I see it as the opposite. Rather than having goth be dictated by how you dress and behave, it is about the connection we have to the atmospheric music and how it can bring us together. The clothes and makeup is secondary, nor is it mandatory. Not to mention, being able to support small modern goth artists too. You wouldn't call yourself a metalhead if you only liked the aesthetic or "vibe" of how some metalheads dress, same with punks. Goth to me is no different, but it gets interpreted differently by people online. People who just like spooky themes, literature, movies, but have no connection/true appreciation for the music is 100% fine - but not goth. And yes, if you're goth - you can certaintly enjoy other genres just as much! You don't have to be locked into one genre for the rest of your life lol.
im not goth myself, (though i do enjoy a lot of goth music and have participated a lot in my local music scene) but in my experience the people that are usually NOT posers are the ones who look most like normies 😂 if u really care about the subculture, the music, the politics, the overall music, a lot of time aesthetics comes secondary. that being said, i don’t think anyone should limit their self expression in fear of being called a poser-if u love gothic fashion dress goth-but if u don’t like gothic music maybe don’t call urself goth? idk from someone who can appreciate the subculture but doesn’t identify with it i think it’s important to respect the roots of the movement and the history in the music.
The more it becomes an aesthetic without substance the more I am drawn away from looking goth and more to substance. I do not like to dress Up even for Events Like I used to. I became goth because I hated our superficial, Money centred society and I still do and so I refuse to buy into a goth "aesthetic".
Gonna be honest. As a 32 year old that has had "alternative looks" since ive been a teen and liked that sorta music too. Its sad to me that nowadays looking like this just "looks cool" and doesnt actually mean anything about your personality and what you like anymore It feels like a certain look has been just hijacked from my kinda people and is worn like a costume
Elder Goth Millennial here, I think you really hit the nail on the head with so many of your points. I have a chronic illness and can’t go full out (and honestly haven’t been able to do my makeup or hair in years as a result of my disability) but I’m still goth. I still listen to the music, and dress most days in some kind of band tshirt or if I have the ability to some kind of gothic/handmade/thrifted piece. I think that being gothic really boils down to our idealism regarding the shared responsibility for what we want our society to be. Kindness matters, compassion, community action, environmental awareness, empathy, and the understanding that underneath everything that we present outwardly, we should all just be trying to be good humans. The reason why the gothic community seems so wholesome is probably the same reason why majority of the metal community is as well, we believe in artfully and creatively expressing ourselves. it’s not always accepted by everyone, but for us it’s necessary for our mental health, and when we embrace that, we become better humans.
I dont really label myself as Goth, I enjoy doing my makeup everyday and experimenting with my clothes (usually pastel pink and black, but mainly black. A full length black dress, with a nice coat and a bow around my waist thats pink, thats my normal outfit). I personally fell in love with gothic arquitecture and then started researching more and more till I found something I could relate to, just le tmy creativity and heart feel nice in my body (dont know how to explain it). Goth music aint really my thing, I do like some really good art pieces, but it came down to my personal liking. Thats why I dont really label myself as Goth or Baby Bat, or anything really. I enjoy the subcultures as anyone, dont really need to give an explanation on why I paint my face everyday if that makes me happy. I think the problem is when someone tries really hard to label themselfs to separate from a group, which I think everyone should be able to enjoy different parts of the subculture
Hello, thank you for sharing your thoughts on this! Your dress sense sounds fun and I am glad to hear you have found different aspects of the gothic umbrella that appeal to you. I agree with you , not labelling yourself is a far simpler method. This is why I do not assign myself to any alternative group, so I do not have to worry about fitting the look/vibe for it. Just express myself how I feel represents me best! Goodness it sounds like people from your collage have been very crude and unpleasant towards you. I think people are very desensitised when it comes to how they dm’ people. They don’t realise it is just as impactful as an irl conversation, so should not be saying heinous things to you. I agree with your final sentence, do whatever you want but have respect for the origins, this is a great way to live life
I'm not goth so I don't have a whole lot to say, but I'm loving the exploration into alternative subcultures! Great video as always (: hope you're feeling better!
thank for mentioning the gross sexualisation of goth girls. as a goth girl who also happens to be asexual i am constantly confused and repulsed by the assumptions people make about me lol.
As someone who has been in the goth scene for over 30 years, I need to fully put it out there that goth is a subculture based off of music and esthetic. You need to listen to at least some goth music to call your yourself goth. Now you don’t have to only listen to goth music to be goth because good music is in nearly every genre but you should at least appreciate some of it. Goth is not just a fashion movement is it a subculture which is built upon many different aspects.
As a middle-aged fuddy-duddy who was a goth back in the 90's....I find all of this fascinating.....the more things change the more things stay the same....
I’m almost fifty and I grew up in a midwestern city where I didn’t hear the word “goth” until probably after high school although I was probably just on the peripheral path of the genre in my teens I switched schools several times and I remember being called “alternative” by a classmate and I was being honest when I responded to it with “that’s a lazy vague description of what you might be trying to articulate because alternative to what? As long as you are in view of multiple options one of them is going to be the alternative to another…” So he amended that to be “like a burnout who doesn’t smoke or drink or party but on the honor roll and wearing a lot of black.”’ It’s a pretty accurate description of my 1991 self although I think in recent retrospective views the music that I was listening to most frequently would have gone under the general umbrella of goth and new wave and post punk and electronic based music like the pet shop boys and new order but I was also making music myself and the past few months I have revisited the music that soundtracks my adolescence and early adulthood with a different perspective and I am definitely able to hear the sound of what I might have taken in that influenced my own music but it seems so obvious that I am surprised how when I was making recordings and touring I often had a couple of recurring comparisons to some people that became popular in the later nineties I never really got into, I think some reviewers are just lazy or not broad enough to connect the things that are influential and I am wary of the tendency to present music like those designer imposter fragrance perfumes as “if you like ____ you’ll love _____• and oftentimes the more someone’s music consumption time takes up the most obvious thing that stands out to them in such a pitch is what makes the two bands/artists really different from each other and not the similarities. In either direction it can get very niche eventually. My own songs were very much based on that I had a piano to work with and so I was more aware of how other artists were using the keyboard and synth to make it… by the time I got out of the industry there were more and more artists who did that and keyboards were less expensive and better sounding so it made it easier to work on the road without being a hassle or a unicorn or something. Depeche Mode and the cure were big in my adolescent soundtrack but people gave me a lot of grief for not being the new Tori Amos or for being me a female piano player who was doing music at shows prior to her or Sarah mclachlan having their own music on the public radar and I think it’s a bit limiting to do that especially then but we have a tendency to pit females against other females in society I think. It’s gross and makes it hard to do a thing on merit alone. Sorry I wrote you guys a short novel here 😊
80s elder goth or what ever you want to call it ( wasn't called goth for a long time lol ) here: We made our own clothing 90% of the time from thrifted clothing If it was not the color we liked.... RIT DYE, We had 3 cosmetics ... 1 black eyeliner that served as lipstick, eyeshadow and liner, Ivory face powder mixed with baby powder , Chapstick. Sometimes we made eyelashes out of feathers from boas , Fishnets were RARE , most of the time it was A line pantyhose , We avoided stores, the sun , people ... Media ( which leads me to our next point ) We MADE our own media , OUR MUSIC !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THE music ! oh and THE MUSIC !!! We made art LOTS OF ART , we wrote poetry LOTS of poetry , We made films , As school children 99% of other school children would oft try to harm us emotionally or physically ( it was very common) socially we banded together with other s who created and or were socially stricken from large groups , the clubs and the music gave us a place to all bond together with out saying a word but to dance . Also 90% of the time we were all poor , because at the origin of that movement we were living in poverty from the first Russian/USA conflict aka the Regan youth . As far as gatekeeping .... its not cool because it stifles growth and creativity and what we wanted to begin with CREATIVE ARTS AND MUSIC, but also if your not in the MUSIC then what are you? Dressing as a song bird is a costume , singing as a song bird and dressing as a songbird building the nest as the songbird defines you as a songbird. At the end of the day be you , if some one "looks goth" and you think you are NOT COOL because you are not " being goth " just BE YOU !!! nothing is wrong with you !!! if people are arguing with you about your identity... run. All i ask as an "eldergoth" LOL ... Is CREATE < MAKE THE MUSIC < KEEP IT PHYSICAL not just digital !! DO NOT LET REAL ART DIE
You are my three parakeets' favorite RU-vidr omg, you're also one of mine of course (I just discovered you today) but my rescue birbs are normally very silent and sometimes they chirp along to podcasts and videos but I've NEVER heard them so chatty before in 3 years. They literally love you and they were like making so many cool new birdy noises and chirping along very enthusiastically and when I paused it they went silent. Me and my birds are big fans!
Fuck gatekeeping You can be anti capitalistic, anti fetishization (of any people), and anti fast fashion and dress Gothic without naming any books or music. Dress however you want and don't let people on the internet keep you from expressing yourself through dress. 😊
I'm definitely not part of the target audience of tiktok, being a goth/alt person of colour in my 30s. But I think as long as people are mindful of our punk roots and are encouraged to bring in their own creativity I don't mind. I especially want to see more non white goths out there. Back in the 90s I ran into a lot of racist gatekeeping where I lived. That's also why I don't think there is one all encompassing definition of goth. For me it is a sense of memento mori, knowing that life is finite and that death isn't always a terrifying thing. It can be beautiful and a release, and the knowledge that you will inevitably die one day can make you embrace whatever time you have left even more. It also gives lots of room for people like me who, because of trauma, have a very bleak outlook on life and work through that through art and music.
If you go to goth forums or goth subreddits- especially for goth fashion- the hypersexualization of Goth females is a commonly complained about subject. It’s super rampant.
i have a coworker like 18 yrs old that always go on about how he wants a "vampire goth gf" and he always argues with me that he's goth (in a mostly lighthearted way but still)... he listens to type o negative and deaftones and dresses in the fake y2k style outside of work but in black AND he likes guns and WANTS to go into the military... i don't even know where to start with him anymore or what to say
i identify as just "alternative" because i fit in with so many subcultures that it's hard to say i'm one without offending the other members of the subculture. I listen to all different music, from metal to emo to goth to punk to pop to rock to kpop.
ive been in the goth scene for over a year now and what i can say is that to be goth you have to listen to goth music. You can listen to other genres of music but goth has to be one of the genres you listen to if you want to call yourself goth. the trad goth look is fun but not necessary. and if you only like the literature i believe you would be gothic :).
13:18 this reminded me of how tx2 would hear people say “hey. stop fetishizing goth women, it makes us uncomfortable” and would get mad or in retaliation would play into the “goth dommy mommy!!!1!2!!” thing and even having other people play into it to act offended (and going as far as using what someone said and making their own voice clip of it to put in a song)
People tend to forget that being a teen is the phase of your life where you try new things to figure out what you like. It's a string of phases. No, you're not a goth just because you like the aesthetic since yesterday 3:47pm when you saw that one short online. But you're welcome to dive into it as deep as you like to figure out whether you like it or not. You're not punk because you like one song that's slightly political. You're not grunge just for wearing that Nirvana shirt. You're allowed to look into stuff. Listen to the music, read the books, watch the movies, wear the clothes. Learn the lore. Go through phases. Find yourself. Ignore the gatekeepers. There's no gate. Be respectful.
as someone whos been goth for several years now, i get exhausted of the constant discourse about what "true goth" is and i feel like goths have been having the same conversations over and over again for decades. goth is about music. BUT. the fashion comes from the music. i dress the way i do because yeah, its fun as hell to wear a trenchcoat and big boots while listening to fields of the nephilim. gothic literature is important because it forms the basis for a lot of the lyrical stylings of goth music and hell, one of the first songs to be considered goth rock is bela lugosi is dead by bauhaus, which is specifically about the actor who played dracula in the 1931 film adaptation. a goth could be someone who wears all black and long lace dresses and writes poetry while sitting in a cemetery, and a goth can also be someone who dresses "normal" and listens to horror vacui and joy division. these two people may seem different, but are united by music taste and an affinity for darkness. at its core, goth is about community with people who share your taste in music, and because of said music people in this community tend to dress a certain way and enjoy certain things. the reason goths are so defensive about posers is partially because elitism has always been a problem, but also because so many of us have faced bullying by people who later try to dress like us while not understanding why we express ourselves the way we do. i have to keep my guard up because there have been many times where the people who wear a lot of black or have dyed hair or piercings who would normally be people id recognize as someone who i have things in common with have excluded and made fun of me. goths also tend to enjoy the subculture so much because they have a deep emotional connection to it, and seeing people who dont have that connection call themselves goth (and often times become the common perception of what we're like) feels kinda bad yknow? this is already long and im not even getting into the fast fashion shit (there is nothing more tragic than seeing people say "i cant be goth i dont have the money" when im wearing a hand-painted bauhaus shirt and a $5 pair of ripped up tights as an undershirt. goth came from punk!!! learn to diy!!!). i just wanted to share my thoughts. i appreciate that you did your research with this because a lot of people who cover our subculture seem to not really know what theyre talking about, so thanks🖤🦇
I'm a goth who's just getting into the fashion aspect of the culture it's so funny seeing people claim me as a poser, like even if I was.. why do you care? I feel as if societies obsession with labels has really messed with the ideals and movement. Thanks for addressing this! It's something that should be talked about more :))
As someone who really enjoys the visual kei music scene in Japan (which has goth aspects to it) I wish I had the balls to dress in a similar way, I adore gothic styles sooo much. This video gives me a little confidence to test that
Ahhhh if you enjoy something, always give it a go, you can start off subtle and work your way into more ‘gothic looks’ when you feel you have gained enough confidence! I think when I was testing out new aesthetics etc I would wear them to events where I knew other people would be dressed up in a similar manner , so that I could still express myself but also blend in with people!
I think @herbsandaltars put it best when it comes to defining goth culture. The entire concept is based on being counter culture and against the rigid boxes that society likes to establish. So for people who claim to be goth trying to put parameters and rules on other people and gatekeep flies in the face of what goth is really about. As for the unhealthy fetishism; unfortunately anything that is considered different, unusual, and unique will be fetishized by nasty humans. Not excusing it and it certainly need to be spoken out against but the phenomenon is hardly restricted to 'goths'.
this is just in time for world goth day in the 18th!! i love this video so much!! i had an emo to goth pipeline and here are my opinions: listening to goth music makes you goth. like you didn’t have to be alive to see Bella Lugosi to be goth. there are some great modern goth bands and the older bands are also great. in terms of clothing and makeup, i use drugstore makeup and either crochet my clothing or buy something i really like on sale because gothic clothing is expensive. but back to my first point, you can dress in whatever you want and still be goth if you listen to the music. i do the full do very rarely because it’s a lot of effort, but i feel so cool when i’m in the whole get up i personally feel that the whole sexualisation of goth girls came with the egirl movement of the pandemie. like they were sexualised and now goths are. it sucks though because men who want a goth gf are so creepy in a bad way. as a baby bat (i entered the scene in early 2021) i often feel like i am an imposter because i don’t know the goth bands. i saw a lot tik toks and that’s how i found a lot of the bands i enjoy today. however, the issue of goth elitists needs to be addressed because they make me feel inadequate as a bat. i recently got kicked off a goth group because i said i’m going to a WGD event that “doesn’t play goth music”. i don’t know what music will be played but i’m still going to enjoy the event because it’s a gathering of goths. but goth elitists need healthier ways to gatekeep the sub culture. my ultimate conclusion, listen to goth music, dress how you want and men wanting goth gfs are gross.
Ahhhh thank you so much for leaving your first hand thoughts on the matter - I am really interested to see what goths had to say on it all! It’s interesting to hear so many goths saying that it is far more about the music than aesthetic! Conversely on tiktok it can make you feel the opposite occasionally! But I suppose that comes with the nature of the app as it is a video platform. I believe you are correct about the e girl movement being at the detriment of goths. It is sad to hear you have been made to feel like an imposter and removed from groups for not being diehard enough, elitism like that will be at the detriment of the goth movement. I think goths who get stuck in elitist ways often think they are doing it for the right reasons, but actually creates a toxic environment. Once again thank you for sharing your thoughts!
14:34 my hopes and dreams have been crushed/j in seriousness now, I wanted to say I really enjoy watching your videos! You always keep me very entertained while I play dress to impress or paint or whatever it is I do
I find this topic really interesting! I think the goth aesthetic is really about the culture more than anything, although the fashion is also definitely a part of it. Gothic fashion and the architecture and music is all extraordinary, I love seeing it and learning more about it. For what makes somebody not a goth, I'd agree with many other people with saying that if you're only saying you're goth because of the fashion, you're not. Theres plenty of goths that don't dress like it, and plenty of nongoths that dress gothic, it really depends on your point of view in the conversation. Love to see another video, especially on such an interesting topic >.
Hello! I really appreciate you leaving your insight! I think I agree with you, someone can look ‘gothic’ but not actually be a goth - because their values do not match up etc - thank you for commenting!
I have a lifelong passion for the macabre. The amount of times I’ve been approached at the goth club by “tourists” and complimented on how I am dressed or hair/ makeup and then told something that smeggsualized my appearance is insane
I've always found it helpful to distinguish between the terms goth and gothic Goth is a music based subculture. It's inherently tied to the music. It can include certain aesthetics, but that's optional. Meanwhile gothic is the aestheticization of it all. Beatiful dark clothes, a love for ancient architecture, reading gothic literature (gothic is a period/genre in literary history too btw) and generally an attraction to the macabre. You can be part of both, or you can be interested in just one of them. I, for example, love gothic literature and wear fashion that could be described as gothic from time to time. I'm trying to befriend the crows on my campus and dream of living in a castle. However, I'm not that into goth music, which is why I don't call myself goth. I get that at first it feels very gatekeepy to say you need to listen to the music to be goth but the goth subculture has its origin in the music, which should be respected, terms need to be defined somehow, and there's another term to use right there if you vibe more with the visuals
So, as a goth i have to say- the online community is not at all reflective of what the goth community really is. goth is a music based subculture with roots in punk. Spaces like goth clubs were and are a place for weirdos who connect over weird music. i don't mind people trying out styles, just don't call yourself goth if you dislike the music. also i wanna add- most goths do NOT look that polished. most of us are crusty, wearing selfmade crappy clothes with a bad dye-job. and goths do not 'look goth' 100% of the time. as you said, that is a lot of work. when i dress up all fancy i need 3 hours. and another hour to get out of all that at the end of the day. for me, goth is just what feels right. i get so happy listening to the music and dancing to it with my friends or in a club. it feels so nice to create the band shirt for the shitty band you found that kinda sounds cool but the quality is just bad bcs they don't have the money. and i do not care about this 'buying goth clothes is cheating' or whatever. you think goths in the 80s would not have bought a cool killstar jacket that looks exactly like they want it to look? they did so much themselves bcs back then there were no gothic shops. today that is different. and while yes, diy is a part of this subculture, it's stupid to think it is the only way. also i heard someone say 'punk says the world is shit and i wanna change it. emo is the world is shit and i cannot change it. goth is the world is shit but it also has beauty' and i think that is a really good explenaition
as a goth i do think that the punk ideology is very much linked to goth, like it is literally based off of punk. i know goths who say they aren't into "politics" but at the very least you cannot be right wing, or a bigot and a goth. also you do have to be a fan of the music to say you're a goth. there's so many different genres under the goth umbrella as well so it's not hard to find something that you do like. also! lots of people don't dress like super fancy goth everyday or at all! you don't have to, to be a goth like some people can't for different reasons.
also the goth community is such a welcoming community! like all this sh*t you see online (discourse) is not at all what you'll experience at a goth night/club. i've met so many great friendly people at goth nights!
THIS. what I've also been saying is that goth is very much anti capitalism and anti consumerism just like punk so its a bit off-putting seeing shein 'goth' hauls, morals are a very important part in the movement, I'm not saying that ppl have to be super political just don't be shit ppl and educate yourself a bit lol
7:08 aaaa i love one witchy women shes so sweet when i was 17 i met her at a vision video concert (i hadnt seen her online before) and she helped me find the venue and "adopted" me for the night since i went on my own. really lovely person!!
The beautiful thing about the Goth subculture is that, because it is rooted in alternative and punk movements.....the posers, the ones who buy the black at fast fashion to match the trend knees of it......just get weeded out as they eventually move onto the next trend. And the real Goths simply don't care......they do what they want, because its a culture rooted so strongly in self expression and going against the grain of normal. I myself am a goth, I always have been....because I'm drawn to all things dark and macabre.....the shadows of life most ignore......but I don't wear black exclusively( Im even quite fond of pink), I don't shop the goth fast fashion, I never wear full face makeup, I shun all the "Goth cliches(bats and spiders, and skulls....oh my)...... And I'm not an elites gate keeper(here's a secret, old school true Goths never would be.....again its a culture based ENTIRELY on rebellious self expression).....listen to the music or dont(but listen to the music....its cool), read the literature or don't (but read the literature.....its hauntingly good).... Just do you, babe, and if you say you're goth then you are....because doning that label and that look, even if only for a short time as a complete poser, takes courage(you will be ridiculed, shunned, mocked,, etc.)
i really like your usage of "........" something about it is so yummy to my autism idfk how to explain it but holy fuck it's so good to my brain omgomg
When you were saying there were other aspects of the goth culture besides the music, like literature, it got me thinking… what are the other aspects of Emo culture besides the music and the fashion? There were some movies that I always consider adjacent with Emo culture, like High Fidelity, Eternal Sunshine for the Spotless Mind, Garden State, and also there was some movie called “The Science of Sleep”…. And as far as literature, idk, I didn’t read in high school lol. But it would be interesting to see you do a video on aspects of Emo culture that excludes the music and fashion, and talks about other aspects… it would be interesting to see a bunch of subcultures that are based around music and fashion, and talk about the less common or less prominent aspects of those subcultures. For things such as the movies, literature, etc…
the literature as well!!! panic! at the disco had a book club (started by ryan ross, he would interact with fans here & he recommended the first book “The Heart Is Deceitful Above All Things”). gerard way was a comic book illustrator before they reached international stardom ( & now we have The Umbrella Academy!) also, part of why emo is seen as whiney is because of how poetry forward and theatrical it was. i blame pete wentz for this lol you can find his archived forum posts online.
Before I got into heavier music and became a metalhead, I was a Goth from the age of 13 to 14. My mum was one of the OG punks/goths, and showed me all the music, taught me how to dress and do my makeup, etc, it was wonderful. However, I did get sexualised a lot by adult men, which made me incredibly uncomfortable. Once when I went to a shop dressed in full Goth head and topped up the credit on my phone, the guy that served me took my number and began harassing me. A decade after that, I posted some pictures from my Goth days, and I had a couple of men calling me their "Goth dommy mommy" and many other creepy comments, even though the caption clearly showed that I was underage.
When I worked at a guitar store in the late '90s, hetero guys came in looking for goth girls and hetero women came in looking for leather daddies. I'm gay and ton of my old coworkers were LGBTQ+, so we all got the "I can make you straight" line.
I am not goth but a elder emo, tattooed , black hair mostly dressing in black. The sexualisation of people who look alt is insane, I always had man hit on me and it feels like they see you as a sexual adventure, they assume you are into bdsm or dominatrix stuff just because of your looks.
There’s no way to say this without sounding like a boomer but I’m so glad I was young and into subculture before the age of social media. The internet fucking ruined so many scenes that used to be cool. Goth really felt like a rejection of conventional beauty standards and social hierarchies back in the day. Now goth/punk etc have the same beauty and wealth standards as the mainstream world with a different color palette. What it was to be goth was appropriately ethereal and undefined but not it’s separated into different subgenre boxes and aesthetics. It’s fucking sad, I found so much love an acceptance back then but I would not fit in with the modern day goth scene.
I think ashton daniel put it best (when talking about punk but still) fashion is at most a third important thing-politics is second while music is first People are used to aesthetic trends that only focus on pretty images & getting expensive clothing + items to “achive” said aesthetic (for example-clean girl , e-girl , etc etc)when thats not what alt cultures is Alt culture is focused on politics as well as music , fashion is somewhat there too but thats not the main focus , hell both (moreso punk) are heavily focused on DIY & thrifting theres a reason why punk/goth are still alive today yet the trendy new tik tok -core like idk tomatoe girl is already dead
Ohh that is a really is a really interesting quote! I think you make a good point, in current times people are putting so much form over substance , so they dress up a certain way but there is no depth to it, it does not represent anything. I think movements like goths and punks will always be around as so many that join it will be interested in the rich history to do with the music and political side
Personally I loath the lable " baby bats" . I'm a old fossil that alternative culture has been my lifestyle since the 80s that hates the influencer brand of goth these days that portray that they wake up in pan white makeup and buy their toilet paper at 9am on a tuseday in full goth regalia. This is not reality and pre internet there wasn't some nobody in there bedroom overly done on that Tuesday morning just to film themselfs to post on social media the rules of gothdom. There are no rules! Anyone new to the secen where not singled out and labled as lesser and the term baby bat was not a thing. It kind of slaps of elitist BS to lord over others as they are so goth they shit bats.. you can take that as you will , deficits them or annoy them .. lol But " elder goths" gate keeping is the most wanker like thing to do. Really I have a hard time taking any 20 something yo claiming to be a elder anything as I'm in my 50s and have kids in their 30s that grow up steeped in punk and goth culture and one thing about pre infulancer goths, we dont take ourself so seriously. Anyone acting like something out of a Anne rice novel needs to see a psychologist because no person in their right mind makes fictional characters their personality. Goth is not your personality, its simply a facit of your tastes in a dark esthetic be it in art, fashion, hair and make up, music, movies , reading or even home decor. Take what you will and mix other elements from your life in to it . There is no one size fits all and anyone telling you to fit a box is not a goth as it is about non conformity and individuality. You are allowed to be eclectic in your tastes as that makes you a well rounded person so dont belive the hype as the gate keepery crap peddled on line will be the death of goth, well it is the death of what it use to be but no one is going to give these tictokers a time machine and take them to a time where they would be the try hard edge lord posers.
I went to a goth club in Nashville, and I'd lived at the beach, so I got a tan. A dude in French ruffles and white paint spoke loudly of "posers". He is poster-child "problem of the scene".
Yes, Cal! ❤ Good morning. 🎉 I feel like I’m in some cosy corner when I’m watching your vids. Enjoying your video format, I think it’s quite different from a lot of other YTers. Keep it up 🌼
pretty decent essay. i grew up punk, but goths were my close compatriots, and the girls i ended up with definitely were more on that goth side. now i am much more likely to end up at a live goth show or club party, and the current goth (and post-punk) music scene is fucking killing it. but i still consider myself more punk because ITS WHATS IN MY HEART. and that WOULD NOT BE such a burning part of my heart IF IT WASNT FOR THE FUCKING MUSIC... and that music contains a whole ass message and reflects an entire LIFESTYLE, not distillable down to simply a fasion. basically that quote you featured at the beginning is the beginning and end of the argument. the proof of baby bats being so welcomed is the opposite of gate keeping btw, but it is anti poser as any beloved subculture should. also brother, i think your saying ascetic instead of aesthetic
let's not forget that alt men are also over sexualised sometimes, no matter your gender people will judge and over sexualise an alternative person almost every time. Johnnie Guilbert is a great example, even when I watched him as a child he was over sexualised from the audience (and mainly cough cough Bryan stars) and especially now on TikTok him and many others are over sexualised and it's so sad to see.
If you just dress like person who is into heavy metal, but do not listen to the music.. that is just kinda degenerate ngl. there is certain media connected with heavy metal such as fantasy novels or horror literature, but just because you do like this and not heavy metal does not make you a metalhead. music is the core, that is how subculture works most of the time. Fashion just got added to express being fan on the music, being differnt than other subcultures and the mainstream, it is only a bonus that can be embraced more or less depending on your interest for it. also the media often got part of a subculture, as bands liked its mood and used it as inspiration for music and lyrics, etc.. so the "is only dressing goth or reading goth literature makes you goth"-thing is just bs. the commodification of any subculte will happen within capitalism. i can see it within the subculte itself. it gets less and less about the passion fot the music and the certain needed attitude toward it is lacking. it is sickening honestly. also the poser thing: it is not about knowing everything.. not being a poser means you actively hunt for things, you are genuinely interested in it, you maybe do not fall for every trend, you listen to the music, etc.
So I'd like to point out all the Alt movements are usually music based? Emo bands, punk bands, grunge bands, goth bands, etc. Almost all the movements are based in music, but I think the gatekeeping of the community is really weird imo? Like I've heard the rants of elder goths saying that it was a movement based im the music and counter culture fashion, but you don't yell at someone cause they are just starting to explore the community. If someone says they don't like one or two of the bands you can recommend others, but if they just don't want to listen it doesn't really hurt anyone to just let them play dress up. I just think that as long as everyone is being respectful you shouldn't be angry about someone being a "poser"
I think this is a fair take - i appreciate you leaving your thoughts :) it’s a shame some goths feel the need to be so elitist, it is sad because it probably comes from good intentions of wanting to educate etc but can come across gatekeepy at times. I think from my understanding goths would prefer if people who just enjoy the dress up side would refer to themselves as gothic not goth
@@Necrophyllis. i feel as if it's more of a spectrum than that, given that theres plenty of christians who have never read the bible but appreciate the community values and the ideology itself rather than the religious texts. being goth is also very much about literature, movies, philosophy, politics, dress sense, moral values, etc.
In the 90s goths listened to stuff like Marylin Manson & Korn. It was not easy back then an not that popular. They were the most targeted group in my school. Especially boys painting their fingernails. They were targeted even more after the Columbin shooting. I don't think to many kids in the American south even knew who The Cure was and if they did probably considered it corny
Growing up I was watching Tim burton movies, being obsessed with the haunted mansion, when I went into my teens I was studying just the fashion of Victorians and their mourning clothes, as well as listening to goth music. I absolutely love Victorian gothic literature that's my most favorite thing. Only recently I've been finally dressing the part. It's just a big part of my life growing up. I just hate goth elitism cause as an autistic person I tend to not conform to things I'm yelled at to do. My sibling is also in the same vain of interests, but we're vastly different. My parents though, one's a hard rocker and the other one is a metal head.
