Thank you for sharing this information. I have been trying to make a working Velomobile design. It's very hard to find people willing to share their concepts.
Try to find a blueprint for the original tilting sidecar on 20s-30' s Harley- Davidson rigs. I can't recall any more if that was a Harley or tilt- car patent. But talk to your local librarian, that's what they do... Find obscure source's of data in places you and I will never think of. Good luck + I'll catch you later.
For ages I been "planning" to make a EV trike 1+1 in tandem with motorcycle parts, but, since i didnt have the time space or money im seriulsy thinkin a electrically assisted trike bike to start with, this exercise was really very informative. thanks
Hi, I'm doing a similar exercise so thanks for posting this. What I am looking into is different tilt on the wheels, less on the outside of the turn and more on the inside, making the imaginary lines through the wheel axles meet in the centre of the turn.
That was excellent, Bravo!!! I build gravity racing vehicles and I have always thought a tilting suspension would be amazing, thank you for sharing such a vast amount of time and work!
If you place the joints from the lower arms more to each side, the inner wheel will tilt more while the outer wheel tilts less. And if you add the steering you must have a straight line between the wheel ground contact point, the outer joint of the lower arm and the outer joint of the upper arm. With this turning axis you can steer easily without having the wheels to move or rub on the ground when steering. (I hope this made sense as I‘m no native speaker)
Few people today recall that the first Harley- Davidson side hacks we re of a tilting design. H- D didn't make them, that was a contract with a private co. During WW 11, the company made bus replacement parts. Afterwards that company was still in business, Nowadays they make the tilting platform buses in Los Angeles California.
My experience is the same. 3D CAD takes the design to a next level. From my purely digital work I learned that a powered or at least partially powered vehicle is necessary to achieve gains from the heavy tilting mechanism.
This was very helpful. I did find success with slight separation with of the arms from the center point and using the t model but the t shape is just about 1/3rd the height of the space between the upper and lower arms. The points where the shocks connect to the t is the same as the inner pivot points of the arm. Then using the distance for the shock to measure out where it would attach to the lower arm. For body wise you may have to make a slight deviation in the body to allow room for the shocks which aerodynamically shouldn’t effect it to much. You can also prevent a lot of aerodynamic loss by using fine bristles on the slits which will allow it to essentially close the slit.
This is a very interesting video with a range of possible designs. The only thing I would say is you are having the single wheel on the same plane as the other two. As the single wheel is at least three/ four feet behind or in front of the other two the amount of scrub or lift can be ignored due to this change in the plane!
very interesting, perhaps you could use the buddy it self (a shell like) to transfer horizontal forces across. Could not see very clear the relationship to the driver's geometry.
Pretty cool. When ever I’m designing new machines. I always do cardboard and push pins. Works a treat and makes for real easy adjustments. Can’t wait to see what you build.
@Metal Machine Shop This appears to be the most comprehensive coverage on the subject on this platform. Congrats for that. No doubt many hope that this project comes to fruition and viewers get more information helpful to constructing the proposed vehicle. It is very curious that little is now heard of the much praised "Velotilt" trike with two rear wheels, first heard of about 2012. It looked so promising, while it's apparent absence from the market place suggests that it is still overcoming problems. Any light you could shed on this matter would be much appreciated. I look forward keenly to follow ups on this project. I am surprised that the topic of a leaning velo is not far more popular.
Thanks for the comment! I'm not sure what happenend to the Velotilt, I haven't found any up-to-date news on the internet. Nice looking machine though. It uses a different sort of tilting mechanism that I didn't cover in my video.
I'm still working on the design so I'm not sure whether I will ever build it. Once the design is finished maybe I will share it with the velomobile community to see whether it's good enough to build! I'll try to upload another video in due course.
Fantastic piece of analysis! I've done most of this thinking before but without the pretty cardboard aided design. I don't have an aversion to FWD, so the image you showed of the tilting delta trike was right up my street.
Interesting video with a lot of thought in it. However, I suspect the problem is even more complex than it appears in this video. I think the problem also needs to be considered 3 dimensionally, and not just 2 dimensionally as presented here. Notice in particular the camber angles of the wheels relative to each other while in a lean as would be experienced in a turn. Each wheel is in a slightly different turn radius and should require a different camber than the other wheel. The inside wheel in a turn should have less camber than the outside wheel.
Does camber directly relate to local turning radius? Or are you recommending a camber angle/ turning radius relationship for wear characteristics or handling?
Some insight from having built a bunch of human powered streamliners including 3 wheeled leaners. Weight and complexity are always a hindrance to efficiency when powered by fractional horsepower engines (humans). Lighter, simpler yields the best results. A 2 wheeler with side openings so either a foot or hand can touch the ground at a stop worked out the best ... for me. The speeds that can be attained with a good light weight human powered streamliner it truly amazing. Your results may vary.
Hi, thanks for your comment! I totally agree that light weight and simplicity is the right way to go for out and out speed. I am prepared to sacrifice a bit (but not too much) of speed for practicality. I am pitching my design at reasonably practical year round (in UK) commuting type use, and and intending to use electrical assistance. I also have in mind a faster two-wheeled design. Anyway, it’s all still on the drawing board at this point!
Lightweight and simplicity is a nice advantage for all weather, everyday practicality. Even when adding the weight of motors and batteries. This statement is based on years of complex testing and personal experience. All the best with your build. Your results may vary.
Have you considered pushing the ideal geometry mechanism to the front or back of the wheel instead of on top? The horizontal bars would require quite some torsional rigidity but it would help with keeping it out of sight of the rider, keeping the body mounting points low and keeping the wheel size unconstrained.
I haven’t put much thought into that option, but would certainly be worth considering! Simplicity and minimising weight would be a good test of success.
When it comes to driving 2 rear wheels I think driving the rear axel with one-way clutches on either wheel would be a more elegant solution than a differential. Basically, all of the power would go into whichever wheel is moving slowest, and the vehicle would be self-righting (it would want to go straight) and it would never spin out unless BOTH wheels had no traction. Basically it would function opposite of a differential. The Quattrovelo has a system like this. I know you aren't intending on making a delta configuration, but I thought I might mention it since it was discussed in the video.
me gusto mucho la excelente explicación y los diferentes modelos y problemas que presentan, han sido de una gran ayuda para mi, quería sugerir en cuanto a la suspensión, porque no colocas un pequeño sistema de suspensión en cada rueda, igual que la que usas en la central y que cada rueda suspenda por individual, te voy a enviar un modelo de suspensión sencillo que usa una trike bike, buscare el link del vídeo y te lo comparto en otro msj
Incorporating torsion bars as the inner pivot shafts eliminates interference from shocks or springs as you depict them as well as maintains upright stance when stationary with a small amount of preload. Simple, lightweight and effective for a human powered vehicle.
@@flannel2699 That's why I suggested small torsion bars. Depending on the number of pivot points he uses, he could get away with just one or two. By coupling the suspension and tilting systems, the design is simplified. Fewer parts, less interference, less weight. Even damping could be incorporated using friction discs at select pivots instead of hydraulics. Human power vehicle performance is seriously degraded as weight increases. Less weight=less power required/better performance. It's easy to copy someone else's design/idea but designing and building your own working solution is much more satisfying.
Steven Mitchell - I thought you were suggesting using torsion bars as actual pivots (like a 50's Riley or E-Type) but if you mean torsion bars mounted coaxially within the pivots that would definitely be neat and compact. Apologies if I misunderstood. Many seasoned engineers have made similar mistakes regarding tilting vehicle linkage setups. Even the eminent Tony Foale got it completely wrong in his book on the subject.. ( so you would have been in pretty good company..!)
Muchas gracias por todas sus explicaciones. Me encanta este diseño, pero en suramérica son muy poco empleados y las rutas para bicicletas no son muy seguras.
Fourteen minutes very well spent, been considering this and the problems that arise for some time now, out of interest how big a problem is tyre scrub and if you mounted the lower arm where it met the tyre slightly higher and angled the wheej outwards, (positive camber), would that be of benefit,
Thank you MMC, very very interesting, you saved me a lot of work. One mechanism you didn't try was two pivot points in the center on the lower arms and one on the top, the same they use on the Quadro, do post another video if you try this geometry please. Thanks again for going to all this trouble.
Thanks! I think the Quadro design as you describe it would make the wheels angle outwards slightly relative to each other as the machine tilts or suspension compresses. The effect would be greater the further apart the bottom pivots are. I’m not sure what the advantage of this would be, but the Quadro seems to work pretty well!
MMS, I solved the above problem I discussed in my previous post (Quadro) simply by using your number 4b and turning it upside down, it would have the same result, I'm just wondering how Quadro solved this or didn't they ???? Correct me if I'm wrong but to have the correct geometry the top and bottom pivot points would have to have be aligned in the center such as in figure 2a.
Do let us know how you solved the steering, for your project. I would imagine it would be direct steering as in a push bike but with scooters and motorbikes the preferred method seams to be a tie rod arrangement, I'm exploring some sort of direct method of steering for motorbikes to keep the whole thing as light as possible.
in my tilting trike design i decided that i wanted to control the lean with my arms, ok ok i havent built it yet, however in my design both wheels are individually suspended and i have a rod that allows me to drop each wheel individually. this video did point out to me how im going to run into heaps of wheel scrub. bugger, but his is prototype #8 there is always #9. thanks for this video as its dificult to find any info on how to build a tilting teck into a trike. i recon when this is solved it has the potential to compete with cars. who wouldnt want vehicles to be a third the size and heaps more power eficent probably dreaming, but hey, dreams are free :-)
I was thinking about using forwards facing swinging arms - pivoting at about the same place as my bum fore and aft - I must get my scissors and cardboard out.
You should look at tilting mechanisms for motorcycle cars. I'm not sure if it would work with independent suspension but something like the Flxi Flyer might simplify things. I think once you start to look at how much turning the wheels starts to change and complicate load and geometry you might forget about some of your concerns.
As soon as you begin leaning any vehicle you start scrubbing so I would shake off some worry there... instead worry about weight transfer like motorcyclists racing hard... their bodies lean more than the bike does... and having the wheels running parallel is only good in the upright position because even though its a three wheeler it would still act like fixed four wheels with the inner tire not carving harder than the outer since the two are on two different arcs ( I’ve been thinking this one through for a few years wanting to do it myself in a motorized version... also... consider a hubless wheel so you could geometrically place the spring inside the rim and get the shock both hidden and aerodynamic... mountain bike rim size would give plenty of extra working space to hide things and get a bit more of a patch on the road to hold harsh angles
I’m going to convert my trike into a quad using your idea I’ll be able to add a 7 hp motor to my trike and I’ll go ahead add those springs I mentioned and I’ll have a stable motorized quad. Thank you
Great, realy educational. It should come Out rly light weighte! I Plan to build a Velo too once i finshed my Boat Projekt First. You kept IT simple and efficient thats good Design Bro. Imthinking about a Parallelogrammlaminated Sandwich with a special Rubber Sandwich as damper.maybe you can Research in this.
I'm not sure but it seems that body clearance should increase as the tilt angle increases for vertical state stabilization. But not much, probably it causes risk of overturn at speed. Thank you for shared analysis.
Eerst moet je jezelf afvragen, waar wil ik rijden met mijn velomobiel? in een drukke stad, en op smalle fietspaden ? of op buitenwegen in bos en natuur, en in de bergen? in het laatste geval, hebben al deze ontwerpen weinig zin, maar ik vond het een zeer informatieve video, dank je
(Thanks to google translate!) Good comment, this sort of machine would be best suited to cities with good cycle lanes, other flattish cycle lanes and quieter rural roads. For hilly areas or off road, I’d take a different sort of bike!
This is uncannily like a project I shelved a decade or so ago. Even the sketches and model are pretty much identical. Great minds..! Have you considered a delta layout with a Calleja type twin trailing swing arm setup. Calleja used a diff on his motorised test bed but with a narrow enough track you could possibly do without - or even drive a single rear wheel ( unless it would cause some unwanted yaw effects..?) Anyway it was fun to watch you talk through the same work, the same way.. Thanks for sharing.
Ha! I don’t claim any of my work is original - interesting to hear that other people have come to similar conclusions! I think the tadpole configuration has advantages in terms of mechanical simplicity but the deltas probably look better.
your suspension arms pivots are offset of the wheel , then put the pivots on the body offset also . left wheel arms mounted ofset to the right on the body and right wheel pivots offset to the left on the body and they cross them self
Have you ever seen or followed the development of the velotilt? They also did great research on a tilt mechanism. It is now in development in the USA. Edit: I see it is in the video.
@@MetalMachineShop very interesting project and engineering tour de force. It looks easier to go with a fwd delta trike design. More space in the back and shorter chain for the drivetrain. I will follow your great project! Amazing addition to the Velomobile world!
really like your evaluation, trail and error. where the center joints come together , please consider sliders that cross before connecting to shocks? thanks
@14:15. Could the straight vertical strut that the wheel mounts to be dished inwards? That might be easier than dishing the wheel? And if you placed the vertical strut behind the axle connection then you can add in some castor and potentially tuck the wheel in even further. Looking at my GoKart chassis as an example the offset and castor are adjustable according to the grip required on the day.
Yes I think that would all be possible. The important thing is the relative location of the pivots and the steering geometry. Once this is all decided, the parts themselves can be designed accordingly.
tnx for the load of info , I would try to take the whole or at least most of the mechanism in front or rear of the body that should be possible with 2 foil shaped carbon arms . that would take the wheels completely to the front or rear of the vm . if you make the same on the other side you can suspend the drivers pod in between them with a lot of space inside . the hub-less wheel idea of nelson would complement it nicely :)
Do the two front wheels have to be beside the front of the body? If you moved them forward of the nose, they could be closer, and stay within the frontal area of the body. They could be two feet apart, providing stand-still stability, and faired individually for aerodynamic flow onto the nose. In addition, the nose would not restrict the vertical turning of the two wheels. You could employ a tilt mechanism to your handle bars, along with a standard rotating system for tighter corners. With the wheels close together, you could suspend them with a central shock.
Hi, they don’t have to be beside the body. In moving them forwards you would be trading length overall for reduced width but you are right, the steering wheels could be closer together which would be good. You would need to allow clearance for the frame/chassis.
Buenos días,me parece muy interesante,soy una persona de tercera edad que no domino la tecnología suficiente para lograr. Traducir al español, lo podrías explicar en español, estoy diseñando unos modelos sencillos para personas con movilidad reducida,gracias
Interessante, mas poderia deslocar todo mecanismo para fora do centro da roda, levando para frente. Depois colocar braços, tipo facão, para suportar a suspensão das rodas. Já vi algo parecido e parece funcionar.
Amazing, I’d love To make a trike and this is so interesting, what happens if you have the passenger body volume tilt more than the wheels? Eg at 45deg the wheels are at 30 deg. Is that rideable? Really cool channel and presentation, subbed thanks!
Very interesting. Have you thought about running the tilt mechanism on the rear and using FWD? This would ease packaging and obviate the need for a differential.
A wide track may keep your trike from tipping on corners, but a fast enough turn could break the bead on your tires. You need tilting to keep the forces in line with your axle.
Before talking about my two cents with possible mechanical solutions, let me point out that this design is going to worsen aerodynamics quite sensibly. Two wheels out of the body add surface exposed to the airflow, above all if they are uncovered they won't have a good airfoil even with side pads, plus the upper half of each wheel will meet the airflow at up to double the velomobile speed (and you know, air drag is proportional to the speed squared... Apologies for the bad translation). Of course you may put fairings on the wheels, so basically your design would become close to a Leitra velomobile... Not the fastest thing on earth, but that's true, it's not designed to win races. About tilting mechanism, personally I'd go for the simplest thing ever: I'd let the body and the single wheel lean, but I'd keep the coupled wheels at a fixed angle to the ground. In this way you'd have one arm only instead of two (less drag), one pivot point only (less complication), and you could fit the suspension between the pivot and the frame, less weight and no tire scrubbing ever. The only con with this structure is that you should find a way to keep the velomobile body closed where the arms cross it... But you can move the pivot just out of the body, either in the back or in the nose. Just my ideas on the loose... 😊 Good luck with this design!
What if two rigid arms connected the two wheels and each wheel was on a linear guide, like a strut? Or two semi rigid arms that could bend like snowboards, and that would be the suspension?
try a simpler way, imagine 2 arms parallel to the cabin, going forwards 1 meter pivoting from the location where the driver's ankle would be( in a f1 seating way, low and inside a cockpit from the side), almost like two frontal cheetah legs, 2 steel cables inside of it, that move a pulley at the end of the arm, steering the wheels, and tilting is acquired by pivoting each arm up/down, by speed ratio and turning input(electro assisted mechanical bound angle to steering and speed of the vehicle)
I'm just thinking Ackerman should be applied to your tilting action, as that is how you'll be steering at higher speeds. I assume higher speed correct tracking is more important to you than low speed start and end of ride tracking. The turning mechanism is only needed for slow speed small radius maneuvering. Maybe the tilting mechanism can be a sub-assembly mounted on a pivot, which would be the pitch axis for turning the whole tilting assemble in the left/right horizontal plane for tight turns.I'm Thinking of a handle bar that can be pushed left and right for tilt, and twisted in the usual bicycle manner for turning the tilt mechanism on the horizontal plane for tight turns. I'm saying this several different ways, because I can't put a picture of it on RU-vid.
So two wheels are better than 3 except at very low speeds and temporary stopping. Presumably that is a relatively small proportion of the time that you are in the vehicle. Folding outriggers seem a lot simpler mechanically than creating a hugely elaborate steering mechanism. Even a motorised flywheel that uses precession to resist falling seems easier than the steering complexity.
You're absolutely right, three wheels have few advantages over two, other than potentially less chance of losing grip and low-siding during cornering. It does make for an interesting design challenge (in my mind at least).
Been thinking of a motorcycle along these lines and having same issues finding a decent suspension setup without drawbacks whilst ensuring suspension and tilting work in harmony
Just a marginal/secondary info: try to use Freecad for your 2D experiments. It doesn't cost thousands of dollars. It is free, and provide a so-called sketcher "workbench" where 2D drawings can be constrained in many ways, leaving other parts of the drawing free to move. In such way you can manually "animate" the movement of the parts with superb accuracy. This use is not what planned by the authors, nevertheless a lot of people use it for their 2D-movement simulations (me included).
@@MetalMachineShop I'd also suggest Fusion360 from Autodesk. You can create linkages, pivots, constraints and collisions. Example: photos.app.goo.gl/bez9R5oNgkSsPcZs9
