He is absolutely right when he says causing injury to the perpetrator allows them to heal, instead of going straight to deadly force. But no one wants to fight anymore... Well said
I really appreciate you sharing the thoughts and ideas of other people and not just your own. Seems like you are working to help me and others learn the principles that will help us survive. Keep up the good work. Really enjoying your talks and interviews.
I totally agree and this is why I watch this channel... If police had more tools available, they would be way less likely to resort to deadly force simply because that is what they are more comfortable with.
I am pleased to see guys in the industry working together now rather than as pure business competitors, so I enjoyed this interview a lot. Having been both military and law enforcement, I realize the similarities and the ROE differences in both jobs. The biggest difference with a civilian is a civilian can and usually should opt out. When it looks like its going to hit the fan, leave. Soldiers can cops are required to charge the threat, not opt out. And while cops can quit their job in times of stress, soldiers cannot; they can even be ordered to die. So, Rory is spot on about the “calling.” You will never get rich in either calling because money isn’t what it’s about (and the pay is often low). While volunteers don’t work best for FTO’s in law enforcement, they have worked best in the military (again, you’re not required to die when ordered as a cop). So, apples and oranges there. The one unifier is that if you wear a uniform, realize there are people dedicated to killing you in either job. I first found Tim in the mid-1990s when I was an LEO. I found Rory several years later in the bookstore. Different TTPs perhaps, but both centered on the same core of reality about violence. Rory is spot on about the need for now training versus lifestyle. As a civilian you can usually choose what you like and when to get it. As a cop I often needed now training, as I had neither the time nor the income to do all I wanted. And indeed, my department did not have the budget to buy its officers guns or ammo, much less fund continued training. So it became up to you, the individual, to do refresher training on things like felony stop procedures, which need to be practiced. I think the line “bureaucracy is death” was an astute comment; it is true of bureaucracy in ANY endeavor. In this time if police defunding, finding and getting good training is paramount. I’m glad to see industry trainers working together and not against each other. Bravo, gentlemen. As a civilian now, my ROE is different today, but my interest remains keen in the SD subject. I have become fascinated with the subject of that interim range, at 3-5 feet, where the situation is neither a pure shooting situation nor a pure H2H situation, but both situations at the same time. The prospect of fighting both hand-to-hand and with guns at the same time-and not shooting yourself while doing so-seems to be a sticky wicket for training. You can’t look good doing it, you will get banged up and dirty, and it is very situational. I think that’s why its not addressed more, but it is certainly one you can end up in and needs a training focus. To be clear, I’m talking a lethal force situation with two armed people, going to contact and both fighting for survival at 3-5 feet. It is a combined arms situation. I would like to see more discussion of that specific problem, Tim, though I realize it may be more LEO centric than civilian. I also think there needs to be actual scenario training for civilians on what to do-and not do-after an incident when the police show up, including interrogation training. Civilians in a lethal force incident WILL face those things, and nobody is scenario training it. Great interview! Keep up the good work.
Oh, one more thing; when you receive the shit throwers snd biters at the nut house, staff uses tranquil izer gun to put subject down, then throw'em in padded room in strait jacket. One does get tired of it, especially if you dont get any protective gear on the job...
On what Tim said about having a variety of materials on your shelf... he's right. The three main materials I keep closest are Special Combat Aggressive Reactionary Systems, TFT and Injury Dynamics. It's amazing how the core, basic, elementary principles in these three schools of thought NEVER CHANGE and their effectiveness is 100%. Too bad all these guys aren't on speaking terms. Putting all of these guys together for a talk and interview would be out of this world!
@@alantinoalantonio I really shouldn't say that. I wouldn't know if they are on speaking terms or not, but it does appear that way. Clearly they are separated on business terms, but I don't know any circumstances. What I do know however is that a talk between the three camps would be amazing! A lot of history there! The human dynamic is not changed at all while the refinements in teaching, curriculum and the learning curve has seen alot of change, which helps the user own and wield the tool more quickly and effectively.
You know, very much what Rory said about the hiring process is spot on...If I had to equate it to a movie scene it would be( Carlito's Way) when Al Pacino says to Sean Penn after he kills the moffa boss, "you ain't a lawyer no more Dave, you a gangster now, you can't learn about in school and you can't get a late start".... So true about a lot of things in life.
Always great to hear about the difference between sport fighting, and hunters, and danger. Love the Unicorn, understand the Rhinoceros, and don't most of us do our best to live in one and avoid the other. As a 5'5" 150 pound old guy, I am always on the look out for what is and what is not. Great work, guys.
People covered in fecal matter is an unfortunate occupational hazard when working in jails, prisons, or mental hospitals. I remember doing intake one night when we got the call that deputies were bringing us a combative subject believed to be on bath salts, who had tried to murder a woman. Several units arrived with him a few moments later. He was flailing about, his eyes swollen shut by a pepperball that a deputy had hit him with between the eyes when the subject ( we'll call him Caleb ) tried to stab the deputy with the spear end of a flagpole. Caleb would randomly scream out "strawberries" "chocolate cake" and other incoherent rage fueled obscenities. We got him into detox, and as myself and two other deputies maintained control over him, the confined space with the pepperball started choking us, so we moved him to a cell. For several days Caleb never slept, he pissed, shit, ejaculated, and spit into the toilet ( after trying to fuck the toilet ); stirred the contents, smeared half of it on his naked body and then drank the rest. He took hot dogs we gave him for lunch and crammed them up his ass, he hallucinated about being on a spaceship with us as aliens, and he routinely threatened our lives as he ran impervious to pain into the walls. We finally contacted his family discovering his extensive mental illnesses, and soon a psychiatrist had him effectively medicated. Within a few weeks, he cleaned his cell to a high standard, was polite, wrote poetry, did excellent drawings of super heroes, and worked out regularly with no recollection of his past violent episodes, he was a different person. Sorry about the disgusting details, but I was concerned less about the routine physical violence I was exposed to there, and more about the risk of disease from all the body fluids he was covered in during his first couple of weeks. Truly nasty.
Hey Tim. What about a talk with Tim Kennedy? He had a short film about being hard to kill and was eye opening about real violence. I think you both would have a great discussion.
I'll third that recommendation. I'm sure that TFT had an impact on what Tim learned as a Green Beret. As he said in the documentary, "Old man jujitsu gets old men fxcking killed". That would be a great interview from someone who has experience in competition and real world violence
Thank you my brother for such a wonderful interview, I'm hoping that o e day you can do an interview with Mr Bill Wolfe from Canada 🇨🇦 . I really enjoy he's concept on Hand to Ha nd Combatives
"Policing is not a civil service job. It's more of a calling" This should be read at the beginning of every 'reform the police department' meeting. To put everything in perspective (Also the comment about fighting people covered in shit. That's probably not contemplated either)
"Covered in shit" is a real rude awakening for police, security, first response, etc. I worked the hotels in Vegas for a decade and have seen it all. We're nearly always there before LVMPD arrives-if they arrive-and so we get the brunt of it all. One fellow, a slot machine attendant, was fired for stealing a small amount of tips. He was terminated and escorted off the property. He was incensed by the whole mess and returned a couple of hours later and walked into the restroom, went into a stall, stripped naked, crapped in the bowl, smeared it all over himself, including his face, then calmly walked out on the casino floor and walked around, letting everyone see him this way. We, i.e, Security approached and the individual laughed at us and dared us to touch him as he strolled about, buck naked, covered in shit. I knew a very good friend of his was on shift at that moment. I left the scene immediately and told his friend what was happening and asked him if he would approach his friend and talk him out of the situation. Upon seeing and talking to his friend, our feces covered ex-employee came to his senses and stopped his nonsense. We surrounded him and let him fetch his clothes then escorted him to to the men's employee shower and let him get himself back together. We sent the porters in to deep clean the men's room and let the fellow leave property without further incident. I got my rear end chewed a bit for not calling LVMPD and having the fellow cited for indecent exposure, trespassing, etc., but it was my call and I did not see any sense in making matters worse for him or for us. No one was hurt. No property was damaged. Good enough for me. We never saw the fellow again. In another incident, a guy decided to cash in all his chips one day on Main Street in front of the casino. He got himself a box cutter and started slashing away at himself. At first it was his forearms, but he failed to cut into any main arteries there and then he took to stabbing himself in the neck. He was covered in blood, stabbing away and surrounded by police and security, apparently none of whom could tell what was to be done about it. I told one of the police officers I would run up behind him and knock him down at the knees. But while the cop shook and sweated at the spectacle and did not answer, the suicide finally got what he was after and stabbed into the main artery on the left side of his neck. He fell immediately to the asphalt and stopped moving, a thick stream of blood throbbed from his neck. Police and first response cleared the area and converged on him and put pressure on his neck to stop the bleeding. They got him in an ambulance. He died on the way to emergency. I never thought of myself as being called to service. I just ended up there because I needed a job. I loved the martial science aspect of the job, but the rest of it? You can have it. Years of security work in Las Vegas helped me find my true self, which is what I really wanted to do. It helped me discover the Sigma, the loner, the introvert that I really am. The more I was exposed to more and more people, the more I pulled away from them. To hell with people. I thought I was a people person when I was a younger man, but really I just thought I was supposed to be one, that it was the right thing to do and that I just need work at it a bit harder. I won't be making that error again. Now, I work with fewer people and more inanimate objects. And that's just all right by me. People really need to learn to help themselves more. Stop following the crowd, the social media. Break off. Learn to think for yourself and keep out of the shit and the blood.
The reading and writing and learning materials on violence is great... for guys who teach the material and other minds that are interested in the subject matter. For the user, for those only seeking to own and wield the tool of violence for self protection purposes, it is fortunately much simpler than that. The reality of it all is that not much reading and materials are necessary. You don't need know several schools of thought on the subject of violence. And not everyone is a reader and/or a writer. So get off the books and get on to some LIVE TRAINING. Grab a reaction partner if you can get one and JUST DO IT! Live training is the best thing you can do for yourself! You've got to tap into that inner psycho, that beast that lives within us all and control him and utilize him on command when the SHTF. That's the real game: making yourself capable-- not collecting books and videos. You've got to know how it feels to walk off the mats after a training session and feel cool, calm and collected, safe and sound, knowing the tool is under your belt. All of that requires no reading, no writing at all... except the reading of the human anatomy and your writing all over him in torn ligaments, broken bones and concussed brains. The best way, indeed the only way, to write The Philosophy of Violence is in INJURY. After all, while the guys who bring us these materials learn business from academics and businessmen, etc., they learn their subject matter from the worst idiots society has to offer, e.g., criminals, inmates, sociopaths and our broken system of bureaucracy and bureaucrats. If violence works for hoodlums--it will certainty work for any of us here. BREAK HIM! NOW! Put THAT on your bookshelf, kids, and never forget it.
Another Good Guy for you to talk to is Lee Morrison from Urban Combatives he’s based in the U.K or Kelly McCann he’s a hard nosed ex Marine and a straight shooter, No nonsense
Agreed. Lee has a gift for teaching. Could listen to him for days. Also Geoff Thompson. I would round it out with Larry Vickers, John Correia, Clint Smith, and Scott Reitz.
Tim, you said you hope after this last year we'd rethink a lot of our training to be best, instead of ass covering. Sadly, I think that's not likely. All the rash and rampant attention nowadays, especially media only encourages and reward yet more ass covering.
I really valued the discussion regarding the depreciative influence of bureaucracy on officer survivability. I hope it reaches the ears of those who are willing to hear. Peace
