TMG: M1 Garand commercial ammo testing ...safe or not?? 

Your test is featured in the latest Garand collectors association magazine, which further disproves the myth of not being able to shoot commercial ammo, well done!

Thanx for doing the testing for us... Back in 1989 I picked up a Garand for my Dad (Korean War vet) ... this was his deer rifle until ~ 2015 when he gave up hunting... Dad fed it a diet of Remington 180gr high velocity soft points ~200 rounds of this down the barrel in the time he had the rifle... The Garand is now in my vault and the op rod is fine and functional. Dad of course knew very well how to maintain the rifle ... you might say it was drilled into him...

Great video, complete with in depth research, chart, and useful info- Thanks and Semper Fi!

You need a high-speed camera with milliseconds being recorded as the video plays to actually measure bolt speed.

Very smart man even siting Boyle's law. Good review and very informative

47.5 grains of 4895 with a 168 gr Sierra Match. Used this in competition for years.

That was great and really put me at ease. Thank you sir!

I just bought an M1 from CMP and while I was looking into the rifle on other videos, I was so worried that I would have to buy only m2 ball and buy an updated gas port but this video just put me at ease. Thanks

Sir, nicely done work on the article in the latest "GCA Journal". The issue is and always will be the relative burn rate of the smokeless powder used in the M1 rifle. Decades ago the "American Rifleman Magazine" technical writers wrote "use NO powder slower than 4320 in the Garand". The reason being that slow powder granules were blown into the gas cylinder and burned there creating more pressure increasing op rod speed and damaged the rear face of the bolt and the exposed tang of the firing pin upon striking the heel of the receiver. Wish I could cite volume/issue but I cannot. I discarded boxes of the "Rifleman" when I moved many years ago.

Thank you for this video. Very helpful!

Thanks man for testing this

From my experience, a lot of “safety” information we see now is for legal reasons, as opposed to actual safety. Thank you for this testing. My wife gave me a “new” M1 Garand from CMP last Christmas, and an adjustable gas plug at the same time. I didn’t know any better. I do enjoy the ability to tune it, but I don’t believe it was necessary.

Thanks. I always thought it was suspect that a Garand couldn’t handle anything WWII ammo put on it.

I enjoyed the video. I very seldom shoot mine anymore but have recently taken her out for a spin and remembered how much I enjoy it. I always understood the original loading of the ammo for the 1903 was loaded down because of the Mauser action, but this clears up a lot of myth

Four years on and to this newbie your video is still relevant. I've heard both sides of the argument.

I’ve been shooting commercial ammo in mine for 20 years

Very interesting! Great video.

Very good information. Good history of round and rifle. This needs to be put out more. I am sure the some of the reasons the M1 Garands fail is lack of maintenance, lack of oiling/greasing, and some parts are very old. These rifles are 70 to 60 years old. When was the last time anyone saw a 70 or 60 year old item work as well as it did when it was new? When things get old some parts wear out and need replaced.

you did a lot of work - thanks

M1 Garand forms after watching this video “this blasphemy”

You make valid points, I purchased the garandgear.com ported gas plug which is supposed to let you shoot anything out of your M1. So far it has worked well for me. I spent the $40 on the plug "just in case". I'd hate to turn this piece of history into a paper weight. However handsome a paper weight it might be. I agree with your logic, but would still rather be cautious. Thank you for your video.

Really very interested in your testing. Definitly gunna bring this spreadsheet up with some of my friends who shoot M1s as well. Ive always bought M1/M2 ball cus its always been the cheapest but its nice to know if im in a pinch I can just grab any old box of Ought six. Im curious to know if the Saturn type gas plug might affect pressure at all, I doubt it would but still. Would love to see a video on an M1 shooting steel case. Ive tried it a few times and my rifle will not work right with it.

First off. Outstanding video! Do you think it’s a good idea for the average garand owner (someone that doesn’t check the spec of everything) to use Garand specific loads like the ones made by PPU or S&B because if their spring is slightly light from age that 27fps could become 30fps vs PPU going from 24fps to 27fps? Just curious on your thoughts on it.

Great information!

Thanks for demystifying! I've been told, back in the day, that Garands were intentionally overgassed to ensure reliable function. In your view, is there benefit to an adjustable gas system (e.g. Schuster Mfg.) say, to prolong the service life?

Thanks for the video. I have run modern commercial, hand loads (never exceeded book values for max loading), steel case, and milspec ammo in 3 different Garands. I have used the low pressure gas plug from Garand gear and the Shuster adjustable plug. I have never had a malfunction related to low or high power ammo and I’ve never had a bent oprod. I suspect that low power ammo and extremely cold temps could combine to cause a short stroke type of failure when running the low pressure gas plug, but I haven’t seen it happen yet. Coldest temps have been in the teens F. I have tested other firearms down to -14 F, and can tell you that you will start to see problems in lots of firearms at those temps (Beretta 92 is the most disappointing in my stable). My solution is to run the Garand Gear low pressure plug, shoot whatever ammo I want to, and keep the stock plug in the stock so that I can put it back in if I ever encounter cold weather induced short stroke failures.

Good info, thanks

I have Chrono’d HXP and most of it runs 2840fps. It is a little warm. Good to know what the oprod speed is.👍

Hey MG: Very interesting, thanks. I reload my ammo for my M1 rifle. One factor you left out of your experiement, powder burn rate. As I understand it, the US Army settled on IMR 4895 for its M2 cartridge. That's a relatively fast powder compared to others used in commercial ammo. The slower the powder's burn rate, the higher the port pressure. Among your vary large sample, that sort of averages our and op rod speed is mostly proportional to bullet velocity. - Z

Great video! Love the info. There are a few manufacturers out there that advertise 30.06 made for M1 Garand. Problem is that none of those are soft point. FMJ rifle ammo isn’t allowed at any outdoor ranges near me in North Texas. You have a suggestion?

Yea, I've shot a lot of 3006 rounds commercial grade, never any problems.

basicly I had a brand new m1 garand 1942 receiver devil dog shooting team rifle I didnt know about the ammo thing I fired 300 rounds of winchester 180 grain soft points and and 220 gran remington . grenade launcher gas plug locked open and saved the gun the op rod had 2 sharp bends in it grinding into both sides i straitened it works fine the Garand exploded many bolts before they got it dialed in . the 30 06 is in fact a 300 magnum buy the Garand gear gas plug if your going to shoot full power rounds

I had been thinking about this for a few years and im glad to seem someone else who believes what i do and has actually taken the time to test the theory. This is why I don’t rely on gun forums to get my information. Forums are full of guys who do nothing but repeat what someone else told like its gospel. All to make themselves look like they know everything.

In the referenced ammunition chart what are the color key codes (Green, Yellow and none)?

I believe the one factor that no one has talked about is chamber and gas port pressure. I do not think the bolt speed is the indicator that determines whether a certain load is safe. The damage to the oprod, regardless of bolt speed, happens with a slow burning powder, which is generally how commercial ammo gets its higher velocity, when the case in the chamber, due to high pressure, is still adhering to the chamber wall while the gas port pressure is trying to force the bolt open, and the case is trying to NOT move. This is when the oprod has to bend, perhaps permanently. The faster burning powders such as IMR 4895 and 4064 were the wartime powders, in addition to a ball powder which I don't know the modern equivalent. COTW lists this info in the back of that book. I have witnessed M1A rifles pull the rims off cases with a load that was safe, but using a slow burning powder meant the case in the chamber was not yet ready to release! The commercial ammo that is advertised as acceptable for the M1 most likely has the correct burning rate powder and that's why it works. I do think bolt speed is useful info but it doesn't tell the complete story. As far as Herr Cobra is concerned, I agree with him that non-M2 or M72 ammo, or equivalent, will NOT be shot in my M1's for the above reasons. I do not think InRange TV or the milsurp guy are painting a complete and accurate picture.

With the rifle having its gas port VERY close to the muzzle and te Op-rod being fairly lightweight, the pressure curve at the port would be a narrow spike. The port gas acts pretty much like a hammer..The trick with the op-rod spring is that it is always under compression, moving or at rest.The idea is to NOT run it into "spring-bind" territory, BUT it does slow the initial rearward speed of the bolt and rod. This is VITAL as a "tired" or otherwise "out of spec" spring will result in the bolt hitting the rear of the receiver with excessive violence. . This ultimately results in CRACKED rear sections of the receiver. A couple of new springs is a lot simpler to deal with than the paperwork to "write-off" a serial-numbered receiver. When I was servicing M-60 MGs, it was NORMAL practice to replace EVERY coil spring on an annual basis. Even the tiny ones that drive the pressure levers in the feed cover AND the extractor and ejector springs. These are VERY prone tot water ingress and subsequent corrosion. Rust KILLS springs. When in doubt, swap 'em out! This is why the ONLY reference for a "stock' Garand M-1 is the original service-issue workshop manual(s). Armourers were (are!) required to do thorough component inspections, including measuring the "relaxed" length of springs and then, using carefully-calibrated equipment, measure the "load" required to haul a spring, like the op-rod spring, through its nominal travel. There is a LOT more to "gun-plumbing" than a quick "visual" and a squirt of oil.

Thank you. Fantastic "Mith Busting" science. I have the same question another did: What are the color designations (for us slowpokes) in the spread sheet?

That was very good info! I have been thinking about buying a M1 garand but was worrying about ammo. So you're thinking that most of the commercial Most between 150 and 165 is safe? I'm really interested in being able to shoot the Nosler partitions in 150 + 165 at 3000 and 2840. Thanks I appreciate it

THANK YOU for the research! Whwew can i get a copy of the chart you show. it is only on the screen for a second or two. I enjoy shooting my Garand

I like this video because I’m in NY and we can get ammo except for commercial stuff

Thank you, thank you, thank you. So tired of seeing M1 Garand "experts" who have either never owned the rifle or just got one from CMP make dozens of videos stating as an absolute fact that you can only shoot 150 gr. M2 ball or you'll destroy the op rod.

We know an old man who used to shoot M1 Garands at matches and he always said that shooting commercial ammo was fine for the rifle.

At 2:11 I think You meant "At the end of world war 1"....otherwise an excellent and informative video!

Boyle’s law actually states that pressure of a gas tends to increase as the volume of the container decreases.

Is it just me but maybe you’re getting overall high velocity because your M1 Garand’s barrel is perhaps next to mint? Barrel with worn or partially worn rifling are said to generate lower velocities.. can you prove or refute that?

My new spring is going on my baby. IHC all parts matching 1954.

Im sticking to M2 ball or hand loaded M2 specs , not worth destroying a 75 year old rifle by accident , or fate , I think we need astrophysics for this one , nice video work , well done sir

I use 43gr of Imr or hodge 4895 for a 150 fmjbt for over 30 years. I never had a problem . 168 match load 45.5 gr of h 4895 just perfect .

I’ve seen the data sheet for the Garand. It is rated for any round that generates less then 50,000 psi.

Vid needs more likes

So Winchester 150gr powerpoints will work? Like as long as it has similar specs as m2 ball in regards to FPS and bolt speed.

I don’t remember anything said.

Great work!

But nobody talks about useing standard large rifle primers in M2 ball reloads , and the results there in

If a 30-06 is 180grain the the velocity is 2910fps or 180 grain and velocity is 2790fps its good to go in a well greesesed up m1 rifle?

How i heard about the whole "modern ammo is dangerous" myth actually wasnt for the m1 garand. It was about a 1893 7mm spanish mauser. My father picked one up and I got curious about the history. About a couple clicks later. I end up reading a few comments from a handful of different guys stating that shooting "modern ammo" is bad/dangerous for that gun. I immediately took that with a grain of salt. Now i hear it about the m1? My father has a 1895ish lever action and we both have shot modern ammo through that. Never had an issue. So is every vintage gun gonna have that issues because some idiot cant figure things out for him self? Whats next the mosin nagant? Oh thats right the hex mosin is "better in accuracy". People are now just debunking the type 38 arisaka isnt trash. Im surprised the forgotten weapons dude just ate the bad info for a meal and regurgitated it. Im still gonna read into it all so I can debunk the dummies.

"You'll shoot your Eye out Kid"

Regardless of if this is “myth” or not, I still spend $40 for the Garand Gear company’s ported Gas plug. It reduces gas pressure in the gas cylinder (only, and NOT chamber pressures) by 30%. So if I were to shoot something really “hot” (which I don’t), it “might” protect the gun’s op-Rod and I have NOTHING to lose. If it’s all just myth, We’ll then I still haven’t hurt anything by installing it on my two Garands. I don’t like anything above SAAMI pressures anyways and I NEVER shoot +P nor +P+ ammo in any of my guns. I think that by slightly reducing pressure in the gas chamber, it gives the Garand a little “break” and might prolong the life of the gun long after I die and pass the gun down to my son. I’ve been using Garand Gear’s ported has plug for about three years and it’s NEVER caused any malfunction in my two Garands. I love the device. By the way, I took one of my M1 Garands deer hunting f for the first time and scored me a nice 3x2 mulie! WINNING!

So what Ammo should I be using in my M1?

The GCA has your video in their magazine! I guess I can take my gas relief off the end of my gas cylinder!

Why was the Round called "BALL"?

i know they sell 'ported' and 'adjustable' gas plugs. is it possible to drill out a stock plug with a lathe or drill press?

So what Ammo is NOT safe to shoot? I assume as long as the 3006 commercial ammo has a velocity of 2800 fps or less, and a 150 gr bullet .......it is safe.........is that correct?

Great video

Read Garand commercial ammo testing, got a 17min lecture. Good but... not a test.

My opinion, I think from what I've read, the m1906 round was the culprit for blowing up " low serial number 1903s" at the 1920s National matches .they were dipping the ammo in grease thinking it would help with fowling. Wonder if that followed into the Garand, makes sense to deplete old stocks first.

Link to spreadsheat not functional, I would love to see the data that you came up with..

How about Winchester XP 150 gr at 2920

You seem to be pretty knowledgeable about the Garand. My question is do you have an extra power recoil spring in that rifle? Many of your viewers are probably shooting rifles with old worn springs. I think the Garand Collector's Assoc said the pressures should be in the 50,000 psi category whereas a lot of the commercial ammo is loaded to 60,000 psi. Also, the CMP issued a warning about shooting bullets over 173 grs. The two areas of concern are the Op rod which you pointed out and the other is the bolt slamming into the rear of the receiver. You can always replace an op rod, but not the receiver. Just saying!

TMG did some great research and his descriptions of US martial 30-06 ammo is spot on. He also did a great job setting up his rifle properly (Orion7 spring, greased according to manual, cylinder and gas plug per technical manual). His tests were run pretty well. I’d say well enough to be meaningful to draw some conclusions from. But they have the exact same limitations of the tests done by InRangeTV: There’s no clock, so they’re trusting calculations based on the claimed frame-rate of the camera, and there’s no Piezo-Electric sensor at the gas port to measure the port pressure. Those two things are needed to be statistically accurate. The point where I throw a flag on TMG is his conclusions. He said Springfield Armory says the max speed for the op-rod is 26 feet per second. (I’d like to know the source for that, btw - Not doubting TMG, just want to document the info which was new to me.) 26 x 12 = 312; so, the MAX op-rod speed to be within Springfield Armory specifications is 312 Inches Per Second. The problem with TMG’s conclusions is he never set that as his max and goes on to say ammo (commercial, HXP, etc.) with higher op-rod speeds is fine, OK, no problem. 329, 333, 325, and others on that spreadsheet which are above 312 are not safe to shoot in a properly set up Garand with good barrel, proper lube, correct cylinder and plug! He is falling for the myth himself. He is believing because “M2 Ball is safe/good, and HXP M2 is 329 inch-per-second, that all ammo up to that is safe.” The truth is, the Greeks weren’t part of the design team for the Garand. They also didn’t set up or run the Ammunition plants, such as Frankford Arsenal. Of course they built out-of-spec ammo and called it M2 ball! Same thing happened during WWII. St.Louis, Des Moines, Denver, and all of the rapidly set up and manned ammunition plants had teething troubles and made ammo of varying quality. There was a war on for goodness sakes! Niceties of 5 inch per second bolt speed be damned! The bolt speed of 312 inches per second should be viewed the same as a maximum load in a reloading handbook. It’s not to be exceeded without potential risk at an unknown point beyond the limit. Can you do it? Sure. Is it safe? Maybe; maybe not. (In the context of the Garand “safe” means not damaging your op-rod.) The proper conclusion from this test is exactly that NOT all ammunition is appropriate for the Garand. Bolt speeds of 280 to 300 inches per second are probably ideal. You want reliable cycling and bolt lock-back without stressing the op-rod. Load accordingly and pick ammo wisely.

I know the tachometer on my truck has a red line but if i rev the engine past it it most likely will not blow up but if i do it enough it probably will ! They add a red line for a reason.

My M1 is in 308 win , I shoot most of the time with a 147 gr military style 7.62 like ggg but for hunting I have other brand like : _Hornady American 165 gr 2700 fps _sellie bellot 180 gr spce 2400 fps _geco 170gr 2590fps What fo you think to use these just a few time for hunting with a good condition M1 ?? Thanks for your work . It would be Nice to see a gentleman debat about this with you and Ian

Did you use luberplate grease? That's the recommended high temp grease for any military surplus rifle. I know 'cause I'm a Marine and a Vietnam vet. The Marine Corps only provides luberplate from the armory to grease our M-14 rifles. Since I'm a reloader I've pulled down a lot of military surplus .30-06 rounds. Just about every m2 ball cartridge had a 150 grain flat base or boat tail projectile over 47.5 grains of IMR 4895 short cut or long cut powder. I weighed every projectile and powder charge. I've never even seen any 1906 rounds. I did pull down some M1 ball and they weighed 162 grains over 48 grains of IMR 4895 long cut. My scales have been calibrated with standard weight sets for reloading. I use the calibrating weights before every reloading session to ensure the scales are correct. You go ahead and shoot that commercial ammo in YOUR M1 Garand. I'll stick to my hand loading for the M1 Garand and M2 ball cartridges. I don't want my friends' M1's with bent op rods.

If we assume an average of 24fps for the milspec stuff, and 27fps for the commercial loads, you're talking an increase of 26% in bolt energy. We're also assuming that the LC72 and TW53 isn't too hard damaging oprods over the long term.

FULL load military 30-06 can be fired in the Garand. BUT..research the WHY Garand ammo was made vs full load ammo. It had something to do with the operation of the gases. True Garand ammo had a milder load. NOTE.....M1 BALL......and M2 BALL...Research the reason.

Really interesting and I accept the conclusion but I'm still afraid hahahaha year of believing in the myth is hard to override

I don't know either way but I do know that 40 bucks for a grand gear gas plug is money well spent for pice of mind.

I've heard both sides and whether it's a gimmick or not is irrelevant to me. $40 for an adjustable gas plug is cheap peace of mind.

I held off watching this video because it was blasphemy. But, I watched it eventually. It did answer some of my musings of stockpiles of M1 ammo. I guess all I can say is, if guys are still worried about shooting non-M2 ammo, then I suggest getting a different gas plug or just taking it out altogether and cycling the bolt manually. But I really don't see a reason to have to do that other than being worrisome. I, for one, am relieved to know that all the hype that had built up over the years has finally been dispelled. (I did see a video of an M1 Garand blown up by shooting "M1 Garand ammo" in it from PPU, i.e. M2 spec.)

That was great info. I inherited a m1 garand when my father passed its in beautiful condition. I got to shoot it a lot growing up havent used or tried in yrs. I Remer hearing that using modern ammo would destroy the unit

👍

My dad has one of these with a large capacity magazine. And it shoots 308

Commercial ammo has soft primers seated level with the case head and if the firing pin dents the primer as the bolt closes and before the bolt locks up this could cause an out of battery explosion. That's why you should only use military hard primers seated below the head of the case so the firing pin can't set off the primer before the bolt locks up completely.

Wow all the comments of people basically saying oh thats great I was so worried im glad its safe. Well let me say these are close to 100 year old rifles, the gas system is effected, bent Op rods have been reported in huge numbers, MODERN manufacturers make ammo specific for garand. Its not that dangerous is what this guy states, its only a little hotter, why worry about it, have the gun checked out, NEW springs are needed! Etc etc. Come on are all you guys who are sooooo happy that its a myth are YOU really putting new springs and doing ALL of the checks required to shoot that old garand? Or are you lazy asses just hearing what you want to hear? So here's my point. It may not be DANGEROUS but your. garand will not be the same, fire the same, I have even had stocks crack because of modern higher ammo. So all you gleefully happy campers go on go for it!!!! Ignore all the reports and old timers. Ate their some garand that can handle it yes! But is it yours? without doing all the right stuff to it like this guy has.

Thank you! Every other test I have seen from "experts" they are shooting the rifle dry, And have no idea what they are talking about, I guess "commercial" ammo for M1 Carbines is unsafe as well, I will have to wait from the expert from forgotten ponytails to tell me

someone summarize all of this. Too much talking not enough table data.

I suggest that people would believe this video more if you had some manufacture reps putting their companies money/liability on the line AND some engineering PhDs explaining what the limits of the Garand are and how commercial ammo is within the limits of the M1 Garand. You just don't have enough or really any credibility in a hoodie without any credentials proving that you know what your saying is correct.

You are Over thanking all of this way to much,, And being Dramatic,,, So don't shoot this gun with that round,, Well It might be okay,, But just in case,, you can shoot it but only with this round but not that round unless you do this,, But if you do this then you can use that round,, Be careful you never know,, This gun should be okay but don't know about that gun these are very delicate 30-06's,,, Hmmm only if you do this you might be alright or maybe not,,, These rifle's are very fragile, So you have to do all of this explicitly right with this 30-06,,, Because if your a little off with that round then that's it, you might as well get another rifle and try it all over again.. Okay make seance to me I got it now..