@@Foe1971 Props for "ire away," which is quite funny and clever. But, I disagree with your basic premise. Yeah, maybe there is a moment where a professional and well-regarded luthier mentions that he is capable of achieving the same results of a plek machine, but that's very brief and transient, and I would humbly argue that you're missing some of the installment's many other implications (like, practice, patience, experience, and skill can produce results comparable to a technological marvel like a plek machine). Personally, I value these "philosophical" installments of this channel. They are helping me formulate my own personal "thought process" about building instruments. Just my two cents.
@@thomasbreene893 I will be siding with Highlineguitars on this. And I'll go further and say as a guitar tech with 30 years of experience I can crush a Plek. Here's why...A plek can only level and crown that's it ! My setups are expensive..$250 and very complex . I am semi retired now and only build and work for gigging musicians and myself and a few close friends. When I setup a guitar I know who its for and how they like there guitars and this can very a lot from musician to musician. A plek dose not know this . And if I refret your guitar it will be better then any manufacture setup full stop. When I refret a guitar I find 75% of fret board radius's are wrong and if it says china it is guaranteed wrong. A plek does not know this and can over compensate for this. It trys to make the frets the proper spec radius and ends up grinding away the fret ends. I refretted a very expensive guitar after this was done by a plek! Now you can have the plek compensate for this by telling it to match the current radius but you have to know its wrong ...so once again your at the mercy of the teck and if he dose not know its off bad things happen . Moral of the story ...Just find a good guitar tech and you don't need a plek!
I think a Plek machine is like any other machine. As a factory owner the more work you can do with a machine the more consistent your product is. Well maintained machines do it the same every time, they don't call in sick, they don't get injured, they work three shifts. Costs are more knowable. That being said, a Plek machine seems like it would work best for mass production/factory work.
I fully agree that a guitar made, and setup properly doesn't need to be Plek'd. As your experience illustrates. I have had one experience with Pleking. I bought an Epiphone archtop through a well known online outfit. When it arrived, the setup was terrible. It was sold as "used, as new". I checked the frets, and they were far from levelled. I sent it back. Sometime later, I bought the same guitar from Sweetwater, and added a Plek job. A $300 option. I questioned the wisdom of doing this at the time. They wanted to know what kind of strings I wanted to use. It seems to matter. When I received the guitar, the setup was excellent, I checked the frets. All perfectly level. The intonation, spot on. It plays great, I love it. Not every guitar will benefit from a Plek job, but they are great job when actually needed.
No need to speculate Chris...bring one of your guitars over to Maximum Guitar Works in Elizabeth Colorado...and I'll show you how the Plek operates...and how amazing it performs!
I've only had one guitar that was Pleked. It is a Martin that was Pleked at the factory. The frets were perfectly level and the guitar plays great. The fret ends could have been done better which the Plek machine doesn't do. Was it better than when I level, crown and polish by hand, no? The Plek machine is really a productivity and consistency tool. If you are buying a guitar from a big factory, you are statistically more likely to get better fret work from a factory with a Plek machine than one that doesn't have one. But that's about it.
The plek machine is simply a tool and it requires someone with the necessary skill to use it. Unfortunately, as you said, a plek machine is expensive. Your fretwork may be superb, but that is not common (in my experience). I have one guitar that has been plek'd and it plays great. I have another that had fretwork done by a lutier and, well, I was disappointed. The plek macine is simply the future. I would think that anyone building guitars has plenty of places to be innovative without worrying about fretwork.
Your right a lot of guitar makers do fretwork that isn't great. But any luthier should be capable of great fretwork (I say this as someone who does a dozen fret jobs every month). Unfortunately some makers don't repair guitars so the accumulated experience in fretwork isn't there. Even so a Plek machine isn't a solution to luthier skill, it's more of a tool for factories to provide consistent setups on new instruments, which would be impossible for a human work force to do. BTW, setting the action is an art in itself which the Plek doesn't do, it just does the frets, and plenty of people can do that just as well.
I just checked with the shop in my area, and stand-alone Plek job is 425 for standard frets and 5 bills for stainless steel on my self-built axe with a Warmoth neck -extra for any additional setup I might have done While I’d like to do (learn by doing) my own level/crown it’ll cost me a big chunk of that amount to buy the tools needed to do the job myself; and there’s the minor detail of I’ve never done it before. After a lot of analysis I’ve found I really only have two or three frets that need minor spot leveling but it must be done. Been watching a lot of vids (yours on the SM kisser is a method I’m considering). One thing I’ve learned is nothing is cheap in the guitar building game. Fortunately, I’m loving every bit of it. Loved this addition to your library Chris.
@@HighlineGuitars I’m in a major PNW metro area, with a big music scene, but that price was at the only place I know in the area with a Plek in their shop -disclosure, I didn’t check w GCntr. Been searching around for a private luthier in the area, but also tricky. Makes me wonder if a video on finding/connecting/working with local luthiers might be a good suggestion.
@@jklep523 one of the reasons I stopped accepting custom orders is because I am not a good luthier to work with so a video on the subject would be from the luthier’s perspective.
Great video. Plek machines are nice, but like a CNC, it's only as good as the operator and calibrating. I've played basses that were Plek'd and many more that were not (i focus on basses more than guitars). Honestly a good luthier can match the quality of a Plek. I do think that large companies like Gibson and PRS benefit from Plek's for consistent quality. Also Plek's are great for non adjustable graphite necks like Steinberger since the radius is set and is the same with and without strings. So they definitely have a very useful place. As always, love hearing your views. Great insights as always!
The thing the Plek shows is how straight the fretboard is under string tension. Fret levels are nothing if they are not on a even fretboard. The Plek can plane a fretboard measured under string tension. Most Plek users will not correct a fretboard.. its a tool, how far you want to use the tool is up to a user. You never set a guitar up to how a luthier plays, you watch the customer play, adjust for there style, tuning, string gauge.. Plek works for us because we do 300+ stainless refrets a year since 2018.. How would a luthiers body hold up to that 🤔
I feel like it's mainly interesting for repair shops or factories where it's a simple calculation of cost of the machine versus a skilled luthier's salary over 10 years. Then 100k quickly makes sense if you have the work for it. Even if you still playtest it, saving two hours per guitar will pay off in the long run. But for individual luthiers like us it makes no sense as the machine would sit idle for most of the time, essentially just costing you money.
I’ve been building 40 years, with over 1000 fret jobs. I fancied myself John Henry that can out work a machine and was skeptical …..until I witnessed it. The resolution of .001 mm is just not attainable any other way. As I have talked to other players, it’s the most highly skilled & professional players that recognize the value of the Plek.
Interesting take Chris! Thanks for posting this. I totally agree that people who know the craft will always have a touch that machines never can. I became interested in your content years ago looking for how to finish instruments. Ended up doing a refinish on an open pore acoustic with Tru Oil. Came out freaking gorgeous. I should have kept that guitar since it was then one of a kind, but sold it during the plague for some needed cash. I have a carbon guitar that I suspect has some issues because I'm getting buzz in the cowboy chord territory. I know that the neck is dead straight because it is carbon (love the thing really). While I'm not afraid to work on my own guitars, and have been doing my own set ups for years, refret is territory I'm wary of for now . Do you think it is worth picking up one of those Music Nomad S-Files or the Stew Mac Fret Kisser? They seem pretty idiot proof.
I bought two Fender USA guitars from Sweetwater. One PLEK'd, the other not. I can't say I notice any difference in playability, intonation, action, etc. It adds $300 to the cost, and I'm not sure I would spend that again.
...some great points! One thing, you still have to polish frets after the plek and do the setup so you would be play-testing the guitar after the plek regardless. A good friend of mine has two pleks (one in Austin and one in Houston). I did guitar setups for a couple years as a fall-back job (audio engineer) during covid and did lots of fret leveling/dressing. Totally agree w/you. I don't feel the urge for a plek or to get my guitars pleked. I'd rather spot-level if I can and it's only a couple frets so I can preserve material...or just do a full level by hand using some combination of the fret guru 16" or stew mac fretbars 9" and 4.5" (used with strings off) and my centered z file and be 100% satisfied. I've started looking at fret tops a little more than using the notched (but I look at both) cause I find most production fretboards are not level. My Les Paul from Wildwood was pleked at factory by Gibson but needed a couple frets spot leveled and everything from where the neck meets te body and up leveled (not fall away, I needed to level up there). I had the Les Paul plek scanned and already knew the fretboards wasn't true at all and where it had humps. Gibson hogged away w/the plek and the frets were close to level but they are all diff heights w/the board being uneven. Like .030 to .044 or something if I recall. Dig your channel man! Sorry for the novel:)
I still would argue that it's not necessary to test play the guitar after polishing the frets on a Plek'd guitar. Polishing doesn't change the any of the fret's geometry. Nor does dressing the ends.
@@HighlineGuitars I get your point for sure. The polish SHOULD not change the level hopefully. Pretty sure the guys at friends shop w/the Plek still dress the fret end by hand. I should have written "level/crown/polish" and not "level/dress". I wasn't referring to fret end dressing sorry. Totally would not affect the level yeah. Dig your videos man! Thanks for making them.
I believe you are touching on the nerve of the issue. Most of us dont have access to know who to trust to do the higher level set ups we are willing to pay for. Ive have guitars set up multiple times and still wound up either learning to play what i was left with, or i put the effort in to get it to an acceptable level myself. The plek machine, although a competent operator is still paramount, helps to raise the likelihood of getting what you pay for. There are way too many “youtube luthiers” out here that make our lives miserable, as well as much more expensive.
I think you are bang on Plek's aren't magic. Everything has tolerances and it makes sense that a skilled and knowlegeable luthier can perform fretwork at or even above the level performed by Plek machine depending on the circumstances. Just from an accountability standpoint it makes sense not to move the instruments around. Like my old mentor used to say 'Its better than perfect its good enough', who needs to chase that last .001" if there is no real discernable difference in playability.
I have had several guitars plekked at Glaser Instruments (one of the creators) and to my knowledge work is still needed to finish the job. Final crowning, dress frets ends and polishing. If you have the tools to level frets under tension a skilled luthier should get the same results.
Very valid point! I'd guess pleking would work better on a large scale manufacturing for better consistency. I also think your case is unique to new guitars, I'm really far from being an experienced luthier, but I find it harder to do perfect fret leveling on used guitars with more "wavy" fretboards. And I don't know how important it is to make it really perfect.
Good story, but, Plek is for factories as any decent tech can setup a guitar properly, but out of 100 how many will be "perfect"? Machines do 1 thing, fast, with close tolerances, over & over & over. Know that old song Pegging Awl? In 1work day, "I pegged 1 shoe/ it pegged 14"....
I can understand having this machine if you are having a large production of guitars but it takes some of the fun out of the process of making the instrument. Then you have the issue of intonation. Yes, you can get fairly close but not perfect all over the fretboard. The strings on a guitar are of different thickness and when a guitar is tuned they will have a different tension. Consequently a jazz chord that is perfect with some open strings will sound out of tune below the 12th fret. To compensate this you can use Buzz Feiten tuning or even more precise True Temperament Fretting system. With the later system in looks like the luthier has drunken or smoked something extremely strong because none of the frets are straight but what you get is a guitar that is in tune all over the fretboard no matter what cord you play. I am not sure how exactly these fretboards are made but it looks complicated.
The fret ends could have been done better which the Plek machine doesn't do as @scottakam says. I seriously doubt it can make a smooth polished ball end on the end of the fret. Chris please have one of these companies send you a video or picture of the fret ends, I would love to see it. Take up the offer from Maximum Guitar Works in Elizabeth Colorado. see if they will let you do your own video. I am most interested in smooth polished ball ends. Thanks. 👍
Random question. If I have a 1.65 nut, and a 7.25 radius, but tiny tiny frets. Will that make it seem wider and flat than if it had bigger taller frets? I ask because my 73 AVRI has bigger frets, than my 61, they are slightly different C profiles, but the 73 has bigger frets and is a dream to play. My 61 feels like a 1.7 and 12” radius and has tiny frets. Any help or tips?
Isn't testing after carrying out any type of work considered part of quality control? I was of the impression that any engineer worthy of their title would check their own product before shipping out goods to their customer, automated processes or otherwise. It is far less costly to check and send than it is to deal with irate customers and lack of repeat business. Even if you can match an automated system on an occasion, does it mean you can do that consistently? You would never know unless you sent all your work to be checked. Machines are consistent at a greater frequency ratio but still get it wrong occasionally (hence the need to check); whereas manual labour is far more inconsistent and quirky. Some things are cool being quirky, other things not so good. A cool coffee mug made by hand is awesome, however I wouldn't want a silicone chip in my computer made by hand. Fret jobs fall somewhere between the two, just depends how much quirkiness you are willing to accept on your fretboard. Personally I'm not good enough to care too much either way, but I would pay for a plek if my frets needed doing.
Yes, QC testing is part of the process. However, if a guitar that was put through the PLEK process fails, what does that say about the $100K+ machine that did the work? It tells me the $100K+ machine is no better than a skilled luthier with $150 worth of tools.
@@MrMinddoctor PLEK emailed and said the PLEK Station starts at $100k. With software and options it hits around $150k. I doubt this technology will ever get cheaper. It's a niche market. Also, if AI becomes part of the system, it will likely get even more expensive.
No one will publicly admit not testing the result before giving it out. It would create mistrust regardless of the machine's capability. It says nothing about the process, only about the operator understanding the psychology of customers.
Allegedly all Gibson guitars are PLEKed during the production process. In the last 3 years I've purchased two new Gibson electrics; an ES-335 built in 2021 and an SG Special built in 2022. The ES-335's neck was a long way from correct and I had to get it fixed by a local luthier here in Melbourne Australia, who did it the traditional way using his own-built equivalent of an Erlewine Neck Jig. He got it right, and playing great, something that Gibson failed to do using a PLEK So no faith here in wonder-technology (only as good as the person operating it) or Gibson quality control. Also, though not relevant to PLEKing, both guitars came from the factory with the bridge posts wrongly positioned by a few mm, meaning that neither guitar could be intonated accurately using the OEM gauge strings (10-46) until I changed the stock bridge.
Perfect accuracy on imperfect materials (wood) doesn't make much sense to me. The old school way can make a guitar play beautifully. Plek is overkill, but I'm sure that people think there's "magic" in it.....kinda like nitro, haha.
I have to think that doing fret work manually has got to be pretty boring for you at this point. If you had a Plek machine available locally, you could hand deliver your guitars to be Plek'd and save yourself the tedium of yet another fret level. As you say, you would need a fairly high volume of guitars to justify the expense of owning your own machine.
I don't understand how people testing the guitar after being plek'd says anything about the plek machine. Wouldn't you want someone to make sure the result is perfect? If they had to redo a bunch of work frequently, that would be a different story.
Okay, let me try to explain this in a different way. Keep in mind I am speaking to luthiers and not guitar players. A complete fret leveling and dressing set from Stewmac costs $116. A Plek Station starts at over $100,000. The Plek Station utilizes advanced state of the art technology while the Stewmac set does not. Both produce the same results which have to be tested in the same manner to ensure the results are perfect. Obviously, spending over $100,000 doesn't gain you anything more than what spending a mere $116 can achieve.
Is it bad that this video made me more interested in trying to figure out if I could make my own plek machine? I don’t think think the hardware would be that bad to figure out. The software side may take a LOT of trial and error. Also, I know the point of your video is that a skilled luthier doesn’t need a plek. But man, you hat would be a cool project. We could sell the plans similar to your cnc pickup winder. (Which I love btw)
I think a lot of luthiers tend to put too much importance on fret levelling ( maybe because its where they make most of they money? ). Unless the frets are causing some noticeable problem like dead notes/bends i don't think you actually need it at all. Things like neck relief, string height, nut height are much more important
Plus that a buzzing fret might not even need material removed from it, sometimes it just needs a gentle knock. I did get a B-stock recently though which had an issue after what looked like a bad DIY fretlevel job, the store took it back and corrected it but I had to recrown the frets myself.
I bought a Gibson Historic reissue 1959 from Wildwood Guitars in 2014. It had been "plekked". The third string nut groove had been 'plekked" too deep and buzzed, badly. I replaced the nut myself on a $6000.00 guitar, mind you. Plek is no substitute for a skilled luthier. Gibson just doesn't want to pay for skilled workers, so they bought a plek machine.
Well if you're a good enough Luther you don't need it IMHO. Sweetwater offers pleking services but on my recent guitar purchase I chose not to have it done plus on new guitars the guitar manufacturer has a two year warranty on them. I've experienced my new guitars after they've been shipped from their climate controlled warehouse to my residence that the necks will go into a little bit of a back bow which I'll adjust the truss rod and lower the action and the pick-ups. The pickups are usually too close to the strings.
Pretty soon Plek machines will use A.I. Then they will be smart enough to know nothing needs to be done, but know that they aren't going to make money doing nothing. So it will pretend to do something and then charge for the non-work. 🙂I will take an experienced luthier thanks.
