Tolkien and Norse Myth (with Dr. Kelsey A. Fuller-Shafer) 

The first shot of the video was very Simon Roper-esque

A crossover of two of my favourite topics. Great work as always.

The Lord of the Rings was the first stretch of my path that brought me to your channel

I don't know a great deal about Tolkien, or Norse mythology and so this was such a fascinating interview! 🤠💜

Cool interview, something I've always wanted to know a little more about. The Frodo/Faramir One-Ring dialogue is a deep cut of Norse Lore for sure. Really neat to learn that. I went back in read that passage of the book again for better appreciation of it. A big thanks to Dr. Crawford and an even bigger thank you to Dr. Fuller-Shafer, best of luck with the book launch! Stay well out there everyone!

Such a cool video!!! Thank you for your time🖤🖤

One of the best interviews so far! I was aware of some of the obvious connections between noese myth and Tolkien, but this was deeper and my mind was blown several times.

The passage Dr. Fuller-Shafer is referring to starting at the 14:45 mark was eventually published, in Morgoth’s Ring, the tenth volume of the History of Middle-earth series. It’s a dialogue entitled ‘Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth’ (The Debate of Finrod and Andreth), and it alludes not to a ‘second coming,’ but to the Incarnation (i.e. the ‘first coming’ of Christ). It’s the only place in any of the published Legendarium texts in which Tolkien directly addresses-albeit still obliquely-the figure of Christ. A few choice excerpts from the passage in question: ‘They say,’ answered Andreth: ‘they say that the One will himself enter into Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the end. This they say also, or they feign, is a rumour that has come down through years uncounted, even from the days of our undoing.’ […] ‘[T]he saying of Hope passes my understanding. How could Eru enter into the thing that He has made, and than which He is beyond measure greater? Can the singer enter into his tale or the designer into his picture?’ ‘He is already in it, as well as outside,‘ said Finrod. 'But indeed the “in-dwelling“ and the “out-living“ are not in the same mode.’ ‘Truly,’ said Andreth. ‘So may Eru in that mode be present in Eä that proceeded from Him. But they speak of Eru Himself entering into Arda, and that is a thing wholly different. How could He the greater do this? Would it not shatter Arda, or indeed all Ea?’ ‘Ask me not,’ said Finrod. ‘These things are beyond the compass of the wisdom of the Eldar, or of the Valar maybe. But I doubt that our words may mislead us, and that when you say “greater” you think of the dimensions of Arda, in which the greater vessel may not be contained in the less. ‘But such words may not be used of the Measureless. If Eru wished to do this, I do not doubt that He would find a way, though I cannot foresee it. For, as it seems to me, even if He in Himself were to enter in, He must still remain also as He is: the Author without. And yet, Andreth, to speak with humility, I cannot conceive how else this healing could be achieved. Since Eru will surely not suffer Melkor to turn the world to his own will and to triumph in the end. Yet there is no power conceivable greater than Melkor save Eru only. Therefore Eru, if He will not relinquish His work to Melkor, who must else proceed to mastery, then Eru must come in to conquer him.’

Also I've wanted to see someone redo LOTR in the style of Norse poetry forever. This interview was super cool

I didn't see it popping up but the son of Eöl and Aredhel was called Maeglin.

As I recall, Quenya was the one based on Finnish, and I'm less confident in saying that I think Sindarin was based on Welsh.

Now that's an exciting topic

Amazing interview, absolute pleasure to watch 👌

There's the language of Rohan, which is essentially Old English, and the language of the Hobbits is related to it IIRC. But that's as far as Gemanic languages go in the legendarium, as far as I'm aware.

Deep Cut B-Side Christianity!! That is the best description of Gnosticism I’ve ever heard.

Anyone else notice the Ricki Ticki Tavi poster behind Mr. Crawford?

On oaths, there's a good quote in LOTR , I think it's Gimli, says to Aragorn "Yet sworn word may strengthen the quaking heart." Aragorn replies "Or break it."

Thanks!

100% on the perception of time in recent years.

Can not wait thanks to listen to this one 🤘🏼🤘🏼🤘🏼 Skol from East Anglia

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With the Tolien pantheon I didn't see it as being like a Catholic god with a pagan pantheon underneath it. The way I read it was being fairly Catholic. One God with many different Angels underneath them with different functions to fulfill. To me the theological set up of the world is fairly Catholic with a pagan coat of paint put upon it.

I love your observation that Elrond will not let the Fellowship swear an oath. I actually thought that was a little strange in terms of storytelling when I read it, but it makes sense in light of the Oatg of Feanor. Sidenote: the Oath of Feanor should be the next massive movie trilogy they make. There is so much material there! I would love to see someone flash out the Songs of Feanor as individuals, only some of whom come to understand the damage their oath has caused.

48:50 - Must have!

I would've brought up Eowyn as Valkyrie. I think she contains too many allusions to the valkyries to be coincidence.

Oh man, right off the bat, I need those Gondor and Rohan banners!

Quenya is the more Finnish-inspired language; Sindarin is more Celtic. Sorry to do a “well actually” here, but I found it necessary.

You missed a perfect alliteration, the sun suddenly stabbed into your eyes!

I recall seeing a filmed interview where Tolkien directly cites semitic language speaking cultures as the core inspiration of his dwarves. He describes them in a complex way that leads me to believe he wasn't intentionally invoking harmful tropes, but as Dr. Fuller-Shafer said he was a product of his time, as we all are.

0:37 Could someone please point me to the poem Jackson talks about here? Is it by Sharon Olds?

Got the same banner. Was waiting for something like this! Great stuff guys.

When a Norse character upholds an oath until the dire end in Norse myth... Is it supposed to be cautionary, exemplary, or... What? I'm confused.

A note on the rapture, it’s not a Bible teaching, I fully believe it was brought in from a pagan background, I’m curious to know exactly where though.

Coming to this late but, has anyone thought of Melkor as a Sophia character from the Gnostic traditions?

hearing gnosticism described as "deep-cut, b-side christianity" made me lose it lmao. thank you and dr. fuller-shafer for this! i have admittedly never read the lord of the rings, though i read the hobbit when i was quite young and, as a result, i don't think i appreciated its pacing or themes in... third grade or whatever. i respect tolkien and his parallels to real mythology and culture, and i'd love to see what someone who studies, say, gnosticism or zoroastrianism would have to say about his work. (also i know it was an offhanded mention re: seeing yourself as tolkienesque, but for what it's worth i have been told that my own perceived lack of creativity is the result of thinking (for years) that it wasn't a responsible use of my time... let yourself daydream a little more?)

Impressive! Even when Kelsey Fuller-Shafer gets a question about gnosticism, of which she admits to know nothing, and she has to improvise, she gets it right! (Of course Tolkien is a Catholic of *_his_* time, the early 20th century, unconfused by Gnostic heresies.)

I found Tolkien's recurring numerology to be associated both with 7 and 9. I mean, even with the rings of power Sauron gives 7 to the dwarf lords and 9 to mortal men. We also see this with 9 members of the fellowship. So, anyway, my take is that it's both.

Rapture isn't a thing Catholic theology. Since most of our knowledge of gnosticism comes from the discovery of the Nag Hammadi library in 1945 and after it's unlikely other early christianities had much influence on Tolkien.

Perez Lisa Walker Richard Hall Sandra

How would the king know if an adult or a child had taken a gold ring by the highway?

Fun fact: Tolkien's „mythology for England“ draws heavily on Irish mythology. This is most obvious in the early drafts (published as „The Book of Lost Tales“) in which Tolkien draws up a mythical prehistory of the island of Britain which is clearly modeled on the Irish pseudohistory laid out in the „Book of Invasions“ (Lebor Gabála Érenn). Throughout his life, Tolkien avoided mentioning his Irish sources of inspirations when he had no qualms talking about his Norse, Old English or Finnish influences. I imagine he found the fact embarrassing.

This was such a cool interview! There is an interview where Tolkien says "the dwarves are rather like the jews, aren't they?" It was interesting to hear that their language even resembles Hebrew to some degree.

Pretty sure the Valkyrie rode side-saddle.

👍

Tolkien created languages and a world in middle Earth but he uses our naming of months, which implies the existence of the Romans and our history as the prehistory of Middle Earth. Was that deliberate and if so, why?

Naked riding representative of godly strength…? Perhaps?

22:50 It's actually Quenya that sounds more like Finnish and Homeric Greek than like anything Germanic. It is also more fleshed out than Sindarin. Sindarin is more like sounding Welsh and Spanish.

Correction; it is Quenya (the language of the Noldor) that is inspired by Finnish. As Jackson rightly points out. And there are in fact two Germanic languages in Middle-earth; Gothic is the Eotheod language, and Anglo-Saxon is Rohirric, its descendant. Christopher explores that in either UT or one of the HoME. Did she say Eowyn wears white? And Orks were supernatural? They are debased and tortured Humans. Melkor wanted to destroy creation to remake it in his picture (though he could not create). Maioron (Sauron) wanted to reorder it, in order. It is in one of the HoME.

Sharon Olds, nice

She unravels the way, her way of thinking at the very start. Bless. "Uncommonly happy Marriage" Tainting the past?

Dr. Crawford has a bad habit, here and in several other videos, of suddenly lowering his voice and speaking rapidly off to the side and in a manner that makes him impossible to understand. Surely this is not his intent. Surely. In the same video Dr. Fuller-Shafer, on the other hand, is always intelligible.

The rapture is not canon. To be reunited with their bodies will not happen and has never been declared in any of Christ’s teachings. But this nitpicking aside, it is awesome to listen to you two. The old faith is so exciting, and Tolkien made it into a modern tale of myth, philosophy, psychology, folklore, and real life teachings. Thank you

Even non-academic research is like that. Client calls up with a question... you just rummage around until an answer appears no matter what your formal coverage and research agenda is. (I worked for a research firm in Stamford, lived in Milford...) A most excellent discussion!

She got one thing wrong: Sindarin is similar to Welsh, not Finnish. Quenya, however is similar to Finnish.

Looking forward to her new book! We don't have long to wait now until October3.

England: Bland apart from the edgy bits! 😅