Tolkien Meme Analysis: Just How Obvious Was Saruman’s Treachery? 

The size of Nan Curunir is directly mentioned in the text - "a mile it measured from rim to rim". So not extremely huge, but pretty big.

In the movie Treebeard and the Ents totally miss that thousands and thousands of acres of forest have been knocked down. Maybe no one just noticed a whole army of Orcs hanging around

As soon as I saw Saruman was Dracula and Count Dooku, I started to have my doubts about him.

While I get that the books are not saying that Saruman was already obviously evil, I still find it significant that consistently no one (outside of Rohan) finds Saruman’s corruption to be a surprise. Gwaihir not only believes Gandalf’s claim of unjust imprisonment but does not even bother to hear Saruman’s side of the story (which presumably would be readily available downstairs). For all Gwaihir actually knows at that point, Gandalf is the one who turned evil, and Saruman is having to detain Gandalf accordingly. This continues in Rivendell, where everyone (including Boromir) seems to accept Gandalf’s claims about Saruman without any corroboration. Not only that, but no elf-despite working with Saruman for hundreds of years-even expresses a sense of personal shock or confusion. The news does not seem that surprising. No one even has a middle-ground reaction-such as proposing that miscommunication had occurred, that Gandalf had overreacted, or that persuasion could bring Saruman back to their side. The same goes for the Lothlorien elves and the ents. Even Denethor (who I guess would still see himself at least nominally as Saruman’s superior) displays no reaction. Furthermore, there seems to be an arms-length relationship with Saruman that goes back a ways. Gandalf explicitly says that he had decided not to include Saruman in the monitoring of Bilbo. Also, despite the fact that the White Council recognized Saruman as a ring expert and the fact that bearers of the Three Rings were in the White Council, Saruman seems to have played no role with those rings. For all these reasons, I feel the books do imply that while Saruman did hide the magnitude of his corruption, his allies already had reservations about and took precautions around him.

"Just How Ludicrously Comically Obviously Clearly Evil was Grima Wormtongue?"

TBF in the Jackson Trilogy when Gandalf arrives in Isengard the woodland around Orthanc is still relatively intact at least around the main pathways and its only after Saruman imprisons Gandalf that any sense of stealth or concealment is dropped for maximum uruk production. In the book Saruman has been known to Treebeard as a despoiler of Fangorn for a long time when he talks about it to Merry and Pippin.

Yeah, this was good! I'd watch more meme analyses!

Precise and thorough as usual. To be honest, I thought at first that this video would analyse the background of the White Council and Gandalf's first suspicions about Saruman's nature instead of explaining to the clueless about all the things that have been covered in the book. Therefore, I would be looking forward to a video that is centered on the events described in the Unfinished Tales and how things developed from there.

I always found it odd that the ents could not damage Orthanc. Sure the Numenoreans had special skill in construction. Likely even rivaling what the elves were capable of. But I just figured that the power of Nature as represented by the ents would outrank the works of Men.

Thanks for sharing your passion for LOTR. You remind me of my friend. Zach I had went to school with who was big in LOTR too. I saw the movies before reading the books and definitely noticed it’s a lot more descriptive and a slower pace of story reading the books. It took 3 months to read, reading for 30 to 60 minutes a day. I think it could have been 6 to 9 films if everything from the books was put into film form. I’m going to rewatch the 70’s cartoon versions again.

Also, outside of the movie, there's a question about which towers are the actual two towers. That's another way the movie supports the meme.

Once he started moving armies of his brand of orcs around the cat was out of the bag.

Arumaaaaan!!!

I do wonder about the ethnic background of Saruman's guards, especially prior to his fall... did he recruit Dunlendings, Rohirrim, Gondorians, Men of the Anduin Vales?

I feel like it was really confusing to have the main and second main villain of the story have such a similar name and aesthetic. I remember I was really confused about it as a kid first time watching the movies and hearing people talking about it.

Sauron's gambit, which almost succeeds, is the Palantir. We don't know how he got one but he does have at least one. He corrupts Sauruman and Denethor who possess one each from Orthanc and Minas Tirith through his. He probably didn't expect to take such immense citadels without that advantage, but obviously he is confounded by the Fellowship.

Given that average step height is about 17cm means that you would climb around 170 meters every 1000 steps. Gandalf saying "many thousands steps" makes the Orthank tower taller than the tower of Dubai.

Don't laugh, but when I first read LOTR at the tender age of 12, I got Sauron and Saruman confused myself.

Nice deconstruction

There is a relatively short video about Tomkien naming characters and places in the legendarium that I found rather funny. Have any of you seen it?

10:48 15 cm per step * 3000 = 450 meters. Is 3000 "many thousand"?

To be fair someone could have read the book, never seen the movie and had similar questions. Saruman and Sauron are similar enough that I could see a casual reader confusing them. You also had to go into quite a lot of depth to explain away the orc pit. (Still, I do think you're right otherwise it gets a bit silly.)

The movies didn't really show saruons use of his fortress . I wish besides the gollum torture scene. You really never get a look inside the dark tower

Very good, melon Geek. I'd be interested to hear about Saruman's dealings with those who interacted with him. How did he fool his neighbors who came to his tower for advice? How did he fool the Nazgul? These and other considerations may not have come out in a meme, but they are intriguing to think about. Namarie.

.... And it isn't as if everyone in The Lord of the Rings books has a similar name to many other people..... 🤔

It was politically incorrect to mention Saruman's orcs. "Hey, Gondorian friend, have you noticed those, uh, people who have moved into Saruman's yard? They're really trashing the place. Wantonly cutting down trees, looting, setting fires, etc." "Well, Rohirrim friend, are you mentioning that because the color of their skin and their fangs and pointy ears?" "No no, do not take it that way! I am a good and tolerant person. Perhaps it is me who is evil and Saruman's guests are simply expressing their culture. I shall speak no more on this matter."

Well Eru knew about Saruman's betrayal and said nothing for he had ordained it to be so

I believe that "Saruman" was always an apocryphal name. He would have been called Curunir, Sharkey, or something else in his time. I suspect "Saruman" is just a bastardization of Sauron's man.

Who were Saruman’s servants? Unlike Gandalf, who was often traveling, Saruman remained in a single place. Someone else had to provide him food and clean clothes, take care of the keep, serve as guards. Who were they? Evil Gondorians? They couldn’t have been orcs, or else Gandalf would have realized his treachery much earlier, obviously.

I have been convinced for years that saruman and sauron were the same character that were split when the story changed from being about an order of wizards to what we see in the final story.

First!

When I was a kid reading the books and watching the movies, I always felt that the names "Saruman" and "Sauron" were just too similar to each other. Like, what the hell? You made this all up. Make the names more distinct so you don't look dumb.