I can’t realistically reply to everyone, but I wanted to thank everyone for their thoughtful perspectives. It’s really refreshing to be able to post a video about something that I know can be sensitive, and have people disagree, share their ideas, and add to the conversation in such smart ways. So thank you!
Hi Thorne. Wicca is a practiced religion, and witchcraft is the act of magick. Wicca offers an outline to follow when beginning a craft. It’s a gateway but not a final destination. Wicca offers a nice base of ethics and frame work but once you have that down I think people begin to mold their practice around what resonates most and builds greater intention in their magical work. That’s why I believe it’s growing. People like there is no fixed path of who to worship because through different phases of life the divine changes form just like we as human changes form. So I don’t mind that Wicca is everywhere because it’s a good framework to start into alternate forms of spirituality if having a connection to a divine entity is your thing to raise your intention. Some people need to connect to a divine entity to raise their intention and some people connect with divine energy. To me it’s all the same.
Interesting! For me as a European, many things called Wiccan just seem to be appropriations of earlier european religions which partly have survived in the form of traditions and Tales. For example, there are still celebrations on the 30th of April/ 1st of may in several countries. So probably i would see wicca as one possible branch of how these traditions and beliefs survive. And I wouldn’t for example consider using the four elements as doing something Wiccan but just something traditional.
It's possible that I've missed the message of the video. I think I'll need to watch it again because it almost seemed like you were saying that the idea of working with water, air, earth, and fire is a Wiccan concept? Or that working with the symbol of the circle in ritual was Wiccan. As a practitioner of the Hoodoo religion, my affinity with the circle comes from the Dikenga or Congo Cosmogram and it's specific cultural significance in West Africa, and the cultural significance it holds in the African American community as descendants of West Africa. The way I invoke the elements and work with them in ritual comes from my understanding of how my Ancestors did, both during the era of the transatlantic slavery and prior. I think the common ground here is that both Wicca and Hoodoo are Earth-based religions, so the overlap comes from both traditions holding reverence towards the Earth and it's cycles in theology and practice are what create those commonalities. I don't know that I'd water it down to Wicca although I definitely get that Wicca played a big influence in the popularization of witchcraft and sparked that interest in Earth based traditions. I appreciate this video. I always enjoy content that inspires me to reflect on my religion and practice and revisit the core of why I practice how I do, and why my beliefs are what they are.
I think Thorn's point was more aimed at the vast majority of people who are seeking to make their own tradition from scratch and, somehow, still end up in a Wiccan framework - to my understanding, she's essentially saying "fess up to the fact that your practice is at least partly Wiccan if you're vaguely non-denominational big-P Pagan yet you make circle in a Wiccan way; if you want to truly break away from the Wiccan mold and make your own Witchcraft, then do that without taking the practice from Wicca". It was obvious to me, almost to the extent that it didn't need to be said, that she did not mean to talk about other already-established traditions and, in cases like yours where your initiatory practice of Hoodoo (as I understand it) has coincidental similarities with Wicca, that's obviously fine. Coincidences happen - if you were initiated into Hoodoo, then we can pretty reliably say you didn't steal anything from Wicca.
You're so diplomatic and it's a joy to hear someone who can open mindedly see all sides of a topic! Are you a Libra by chance lol? For me, one of the main differences in Wicca vs witchcraft are the more ritualistic and ceremonial forms of practice. For example, when worshipping the Moon Goddess a Wiccan may have a set ritual/order to go about it (casting a circle, calling the guardians, etc) while non Wiccan may not have a set ritual or doctrine (although many do). I'm non Wiccan and goddess worship is a huge part of my spiritual journey, but I'm not so interested in the more formal, ceremonial side of Wicca. Not a thing wrong with ceremony of course, just not my preference. Always a great discussion, Thorn!
Thank you Shawna! I am *not* a Libra (I’m a Taurus), but I was a high school teacher for a few years, and had to learn fast to not throw poo back when poo has been thrown, even when I really, really want to throw poo. Yes, I see that as a key difference too! My friends and I joke that Wicca is “lazy ceremonial magic” and I feel like that’s a useful way to think about it. It’s a Western esoteric tradition, which is why it doesn’t quite fit perfectly with a lot of folk traditions and what we think of as traditional witchcraft! (Though I think a lot of traditional witchcraft is also more heavily influenced by modern ceremonial traditions than many would like, as well.)
I think the source of the dislike or annoyance with Wicca that some people have is a fear of religion or prejudice against religion. I understand why many people have this relationship with the concept of religion as a whole, but at the same time, being aware of one's own prejudice instead of taking it out on the resources that contain traces of Wicca makes more sense to me. You don't hear many people complaining about buying witchcraft books and finding them too pagan, too folkloristic or too focused on psychology or whatever other framework. Since quite a few witches come from organized religious backgrounds (or strong atheist backgrounds), the word religion is a bit of a red flag for them (used to be for me as well). So when Wicca is described as that, it leads to these prejudices coming up. Maybe I'm psychologizing this too much. I'm sure some people are probably just literally annoyed that all the books seem to say the same stuff rather than taking different approaches, but nevertheless... I think many people have some shadow work to do around their prejudice against religion as a concept, whether that is Wicca or any other belief system. Thanks for the video, insightful as always. :)
I encourage you to have a conversation who someone who doesn't like wicca. Your suggestion that people have an adverse reaction to it because of the word "religion" is ludicrious lol
There are books that don’t say the same stuff (Thorn’s books, my books, Misha Magdalene’s book, for example, but for some reason, people keep buying the other books...)
The problem is so much of that framework is ancient. Working in a circle goes back as far as Babylonian exorcism tablets where it was made using wheat. They used an ashen frock in a way we might recognize as a wand. (Witchcraft series Maqlû) They called on four deities in a way that's almost word for word a match for the phrasing of the ending of the LBRP just with Babylonian gods. "When I enter the house Shamash is in front of me and Sîn is behind me. Nergal is to my right. Ninurta is to my left. In my mouth the incantation..." (DOI: 10079/bcc2g3s)
First off I wanna say I highly HIGHLY recommend Troy Books to anyone who doesn’t want “wicca” per se. They’re an independent publishing company in the UK and they publish books on traditional, regional practices (specifically to rural England). I appreciate what Wicca is. It incorporates a lot of ancient elements of ceremonial magic dating back to the Lesser Key of Solomon. If you read Solomon’s books, you’ll find that religious aspect of magic in it (pretty Jesus-y stuff tbh). Some like that structure and thrive on it. I’m not one of those people. Wicca didn’t allow me to have a first hand, direct experience with the world of spirit. I also understand why Wicca came about. It seemed to unify traditional regional pagan practices into one recognizable form. I think now it’s become so widespread that people can’t distinguish what’s Wicca and what’s witchcraft anymore. Witchcraft is non-religious by nature. historically, in fact, witches identified as Christian, and you’ll be interested to know that psalms were actually used in spells. The one thing that I think is completely missing from modern forms (and from Wicca entirely) is the animist aspect. Witchcraft has really deep shamanic roots, and one of the many skills that the witch possessed was extraordinary congress with the unseen. Being able to communicate to the spirit world and have dealings with the entities therein is what gave them their power. In western esotericism, the emphasis is more on the ceremonial aspects of things; ritual tools, incense etc, and (imho) an extremely overstated emphasis on “love and light” and more New Age-y concepts. (Old style witchcraft did not even know what the Wiccan Rede was or even believed in the three fold law). I’ve been a shamanic practitioner and hedgewitch for 15 years and I am still learning, unlearning, and redefining what works for me and what doesn’t. I found Wicca to be a reductive version of a deeper story. Plus religion in any form just puts me off lol. If it works for you though, it works for you. I’m simply stating some misconceptions and what may not be known.
@@moxygenpathogen7678 Depends on where you are in your practice really but… “The Lesser Key of Solomon” The work is heavy on the formal ritual aspect of magic and is what I would consider “advanced”, so if it’s not your thing, don’t worry. It’s also very Biblical. “The Clovenstone Workings” by Robin Artisson. I find the author questionable. Take all of what he says with a grain of salt and ignore his uncompromising tone. The one thing I find I am in agreement with is the lost connection witchcraft has with dreams and trance. The book will give you some procedures to incubate “witch dreams” that I’ve found success with. “Conscious Dreaming” by Robert Moss “The Way of the Shaman” by Michael Harner (classic shamanic journeying and trance work)
I really appreciate your ponderings. As an old lady far from my Catholic upbringing, I have zero desire to identify as anything. But as a European & lifelong rebel against the misogyny of the “traditional” faiths of my youth, I am charmed & comforted by the study and revival/renewal of our regional pre-Christian practices & mythology - folk magick, shamanist journeying, & simple (but profound) appreciation of the elements/rhythms of nature. Modern labels are for others to bicker over.
I think many people today just don't realize the outsize role Wicca played in popularizing Witchcraft - so much that the two words, like you say, for a while were pretty much synonymous - and therefore don't know that many of the aspects of current non-Wiccan Witchcraft also are founded in Wiccan practice. One reason for this, I think, is that Wicca is a complete and functional system of practice, while "Traditional Witchcraft" or folk magic is an amorphous set of disparate customs and methods, never used as a coherent system. The idea of intentionally taking on the label of "Witch" in personal practice is a pretty new one, which always involves some level of reconstruction, and it's difficult to completely avoid a religion that historically has been so intimately tied into that process.
Spot on! Traditional (Gardinerian) Wicca is totally dripping with the detrius of connection to Ceremonial Majick, AKA the Golden Dawn. This isn't a criticism, but an observation that relates to the sources used to form the early basis of Wicca by Gardiner, et al.
@Trinity M- read some Ceremonial Magick rituals (I had some practice experience,) and you may change your mind. All modern western magickal traditions owe some theoretical basis simply because of the universal nature of the contents of the Hermetica, the writings of Thoth
I’m catching up on all your content buuttt I have to disagree lol. Just because I believe nothing is really “inherently Wicca” and the idea that it has some sort of ownership or claim on elements and symbols that have been used in many traditions for much longer than Wicca has been around seems a bit silly to me. It’s like Wicca came in and took a little something from everyone else, mixed it together and then proclaimed ownership over each thing individually lol.
The thing is all these elements that are classified as wiccan also exist in other practices and belief systems, and most if not all of them existed before wicca. If I pick up a book about elemental magic it shouldn't be centered around wicca specifically, it should be somewhat comprehensive of elemental magic and the understanding and conceptualising of the elements across cultures (unless it's meant to be specifically about wicca or other culture in particulat) because, again, these things aren't inherently wiccan nor exclusive to wicca, they existed in other practices already. The elements aren't inherently wiccan, they exist in taoism, native american folk practices across the americas and so on. That's where the frustration comes from. Imo the issue boils down to erasure of pagan and non western traditions that allowed wicca which was created by rich white people to claim inventorship over concepts that were inspired if not straight up borrowed from older practices.
I know that you have several books in the making (I’ve even read your first one) that seem to be more focused on tangible practice but have you ever considered writing one on Wiccan theory and how it relates to the modern occult movement. I’m deeply fascinated by your thoughts on topics like these and as a religious studies graduate I think you have the proper foundations and tools to successfully write a book like this in a way that most other devout practitioners could not. Obviously, do whatever you want, I’m just curious if you’ve ever considered it?
I have! I would love to actually write about theology from a Wiccan perspective. The issue is that I think interest is limited, so it would probably have to be published independently. I think it will happen someday though!
Admittedly, I find the labels daunting and have never really landed on one in particular for myself. Part of it is because morph along my spiritual journey so the labels may change. Part if it is because people get very defensive about what labels mean. I appreciate your adding context with historical information. It never occurred to me that Gardner never called himself Wiccan. That's a gem!
I agree with everything you say here except for the need to do away with overhaul the elements to get away from Wicca. The sacred elements are something that many cultures throughout history around the world have recognized and worked with, many of them non-European. I started with Wicca 16+ years ago but have moved away from it many years ago as I built a more mesoamerican reconstructionist practice inspired by my ancestors. I still use the elements but my interpretation has changed. Thanks for your thoughts here!
This is my concern with people who function within a western mystery tradition/ Wiccan framework who claim they have nothing to do with it and that Wicca culturally appropriates or that Gardner was a creep, but in the same breath have never read anything about the history of Wicca, OOTGD or OTO, etc to even realize that what they’re doing is largely still Wiccan. And it’s frustrating how much people cling to their ideals which are based on, I don’t even know, willful ignorance? I don’t really think one is better than the other or that one is more authentic, if you can even claim that lmao, but I do find it can be a struggle to discuss things with people who outright refuse to learn about the origin and history of traditions, whatever they are. I guess no matter what people will do what they wanna do and that’s cool. I didn’t intend for this comment to be a rant, but here we are and I’m sorry not sorry for that lol. Hope everyone is having a nice existence! Kbye 💁🏻♀️
Very interesting. I've not heard this complaint about 'everything being Wicca' -- and I wonder how much of it is just Wicca-bashing of sorts. But, I also have never thought my practice was even remotely "Wiccan" just because it, say, is very much elemental. Working with elements is not Wiccan inherently or specifically given that the elements framework goes way back to ancient philosophy. I'm not preoccupied or not about other people think I have "Wicca on me" but I also think the idea that I do simply by virtue of working with the elements feels very weird to me. So, while I find the "oh no, I definitely don't want to do anything even a little bit shared with Wicca!" attitude strange, I equally find the "if you're doing x practice, it's Wicca or Wicca-influenced" idea just... not the case, at least not necessarily.
Oh, I totally agree. It’s absolutely not necessarily the case that any single component-like the elements-is inherently derived from Wicca. It could equally be pulling from a common older source (like Levi, the Golden Dawn) or something else entirely. But when multiple chunks of the framework are present (the quartered circle, the 8 sabbats, an emphasis on polarity, etc), I think its much more difficult to deny a connection. I also think it’s very telling that we’re seeing the rerelease of older book titles from 2000-2010 or so but with the word “Wicca” replaced with “witchcraft” and nothing else, as though that alone makes it not Wiccan. I didn’t mention that in this video, but that’s part of what got me thinking about this to begin with.
@@drawingKenaz thanks for your reply! Yes, re: many components of the framework, that makes sense. And, interesting about the books. That is really strange to me (of course changing one word doesn't de-Wiccan Wicca, what?!) but I can wrap my head around it possibly from a marketing standpoint if the thinking is "generic-sounding will sell more books." Though I also think that's a shame because it seems to strip the contents of some of its context.
Very interesting topic. I'm trying to move mostly away from wiccan based practices as they are just not for me. I'm not into the more ceremonial aspects of magic and don't resonate with a lot of the traditional tools. So I'm slowly creating my own framework and my own wheel of the year and it's honestly very difficult and confusing at times. But it's also rewarding and fun!
My favorite is having to explain again and again that the rule of 3 doesn't infact govern me because that's not my practice , some people can't comprehend it and have straight up told me I was wrong and it's just like- wwwwhhyyy
From a marketing perspective, Wicca is to witchcraft as Xerox is to photocopy. It's also a keyword that sells, sounding more authentic than New Age and less threatening than, well, witchcraft. And because every single one of us is a product of being bombarding by marketing, Paganism is shaped by the labels and definitions ultimately approved by the people in charge of selling us stuff. Which kind of sucks.
This was great, thank you for saying this from a wiccan perspective. Its hard sometimes to say when you are an outsider, without just simply being accused of wiccan bashing etc... It becomes even more apparent with the growing of the trad witch movement, renaming the circle and calling it a compass, etc... Doesn't stop them being wiccan practices at their core.
I think Cochrane called it a compass and came up with it about the same time as Gardner was laying the foundations of Wicca, so the difference between a compass and a circle may be more than just the name. A friend who is both 1735 tradition and a Gardnerian initiate tried to describe the difference to me and there does seem to be a difference between a compass and most Wiccans’ understanding of the circle.
@@YvonneAburrow Yes there is certainly a difference between the Cochrane method of casting a compass but not so much when it comes to modern 'Trad Witches' who so say use the compass but don't even know who Robert Cochrane is lol. There is a growing number of book learnt witches who are tending to call themselves 'Traditional Witches' instead of 'Wiccans' because they think it's the cool new thing but their practices havent really changed ... all there doing to changing the aesthetic and renaming things after concepts they don't really fully understand. The amount of people we see casting circles and calling upon the elements who then say there 'Laying a Compass' is craxy lol. I agree they are two different things that look similar to the untrained eye but many so say practitioners who you would have thought should know better don't lol.
It's so hard because parts of my practice are undeniably wiccan. The wheel of the year (yes it came from many pagan practices but organising them all together is wiccan). The use of the elements, grounding and centrering and I'm up in the air about the God and goddess, still believe in universal energy power/divine and definatly believe in goddess not sure about god. But at the same time I don't want to and have no intention of practising in a coven, I don't call the quarters and don't cast a circle. My practice may also change and I don't want to be debating if I am or are not wiccan with myself or others. So then I have the question do I call myself an eclectic pagan or a solitary wiccan?
To me, Wicca is a "religion" based on witch folklore. It's not got any central organisation so its very loosely defined. But what divides the wiccan witch from non wiccan witches is incredibly slight.
Great video. It's good to remind people where all of these things come from. Although, as you said, many of the Wiccan practices stems from Golden Dawn. And of course they adopted their practices from many other cultures before them.
Labels can be a good and bad thing. They create a container for us to explore but can feel like a prison when we need to expand beyond them. Let yourself be free in your exploration of self and let the labels fall!
Personally I practice a craft. Whichever way you call it. I’ve been in a couple of covens who were labeled Wiccan. I have studied under a hoodoo priestess for a few years and when I lived in Italy I picked up folk magic there. I’m fluid and have no labels. I’m a collector of knowledge. I don’t want to be put in a box with a name.
I disagree that the elements only Wicca, but there are items which stem from mystery schools that wicca does not follow or have changed. Wicca may use some of these but it's not that we cannot talk to each other. Rather we need to come from a place which realizes we have shared ideas sometimes and celebrate the differences as well.
So glad to see a video from you today. Always a nice thing :) When i first started learning abiut and practicing witchcraft this was something i was concerned about as well. I knew my mom was a Wiccan so of course I wanted to learn about that, but i didnt want to self identify as one myself, especially because i had never been inducted or anything. It took me too long in my opinion to find out that there even were other paths of witchcraft still out there, and even longer to find ones that are a little closer to what's right fod me. It's been years now and while i have learned a lot about other witchcraft, i still see some of those basic Wicca frameworks in my practice. It's definitely interesting too to think about how recently some of those traditions came into being.
This was so well said and gives people a lot to consider and I love how you’re so balanced in your explanation!! I appreciated the point about how Wicca drawing from earlier practices and how modern it is. Also, I appreciate that you mention it being a practice and a religion.Thank you for this video!
The problem I see with saying "Wicca is a religion witchcraft is a practice" is : how does religion exist without practice ? Is there *any* religion anywhere that doesn't include a practice ? It seems to me people saying that really reduce religion to belief or dogma, when it is so much more...
I feel like with all these specific traditions within witchcraft, most witches nowadays have a somewhat eclectic practice anyway, simply because we are completely solitary or add to a group based practice on our daily basis; At the end of the day there are no clear lines between most traditions and they all bleed into each other anyways, at least if they grew organically, it's how all of them developed and continue to develop. (This is not to say some more different perspectives in literature on witchcraft wouldn't be necessary, obviously.)
I'm not a Wiccan, but I find what you said to be very true. Thanks for bringing up the topic that shall not be mentioned. I do find things from Wicca to be helpful, but also from other traditions. When I first began looking for books on the craft, it was difficult to find books that were heavily influenced or authored by Wiccans. Now, I find that I just have to go to the right sources for what I want as well as content creators that are not Wiccan. Anyway, well said.
Gonna disagree with you here because I am learning about Celtic Magic and its a completely different system compared to Wicca and the lore about Fairies is very different than you would expect. Also Pennsylvanian and Appalachian witchcraft is very different from Wicca or even traditional European Witchcraft. Check out the book Pow Wow old friend
I study Traditional Wicca. I used to practice it. What I mean by wicca is any Tradition that had roots in Gardnerian and Alexandrian Traditions. I can't claim these Traditions because I am not an initiated member of these. But I read books by Gardner, Valiente, the farrars, Buckland and other that are associated with my definition of what wicca is. If someone tells me they are wicca but don't recognize garner I am sorry in my opinion that person is not wicca but just a pagan witch. Now I am not an expert. I just have a personal standpoint that I live by no I wouldn't tell them they aren't or are because it's not my place. I don't expect anyone but myself to live up to my standard of what wicca is
This is so spot on! I commented on one of your other videos today exactly about this and just found this. You’re really making such an important contribution to this community with your elaborations and explanations. 👍🏻👍🏻
If people question me about my spirituality, I say I'm Wiccan because it's less abrupt than saying I practice Witchcraft. I feel as though Wiccan, Witch, and even a Shaman can look so so different from one practice to another that it's hard to not get pronouny. If I say wiccan they at least get a ball park without details. Ideally I don't tell people anything about my religious beliefs, because they're my own. Plus it's my personal relationship with nature and spirit. I'm late I know:0)
I find Wicca gives me structure, discipline and grounding. There are some non-Wiccans out there that go off the deep end to a place I'd rather not go,i.e., hexes, cursing, negative Magick et al. This is personal, it's just not my cup 🍵 of tea...
Doesn't this really come down to the nature of trad Wicca as being an orthopraxy and it is orthopraxy which unifies initiates? Whereas eclectic/solitary popular neopagan witchcraft/'wicca' (I don't know how to identify the 'wicca' that is non-lineaged sorry) is often far more orthodoxical in what unified adherents taking for granted the actions of ritual preferring to concentrate on things like deities, ethics and the like. This nomenclature has been simmering for almost as long as I can remember without even a jot of resolution or agreement. A total lack of common language when using common language!
Another view is that Wicca doesn’t own circle and four corner ritual, or even the concept of God and Goddess and I believe the same is true for most individual components of Wicca. Wicca just put exciting concepts together in their own whole. Sadly many people now associate them almost exclusively with Wicca and reject them. It’s enlightened ignorance in a way.
I liked your video . I would recommend if you want a non-wiccan form of magic that Poppetry might be your thing it's a really old form of magic which never seems to get much press.
I think some people forget that Wicca and witchcraft were the same thing 50 years. Witchcraft has just become so diluted to Now it means practise without religion. Today's verse who are hardcore old school wiccans witchcraft is a religion. And to some of us Wicca and witchcraft are the same thing. The term Wicca was used to stop bad press...
I love your videos. You always bring up things I never really think about until you say it. I love the perspectives you have on different topics. Really gets me thinking
I feel that Wicca is like bottom of the barrel when it comes to trend or being a part of the Witchy-Cool-Kids.. Also it feels like if someone is a non-Wiccan Witch, they tend to think that Wicca is basic, floofy, and not as legitimate for some reason. There has been a lot of hate on Wicca still going on lately I've been noticing. A lot of scoffing when mentioning Wicca or quick to denounce it and publicly re-affirm their non-Wiccan path. Which is fine, to each their own but it's also kinda inflammatory too!
Yes! Thank you! I wish more in the Pagan community understood this. While I don’t call myself Wiccan, I’m initiated into a Wiccan tradition and almost all my practices are Wiccan. My only reason for not identifying as such is the Wiccan Rede and Three Fold law. I’m not a fan and I have always felt they were such a backbone of core Wiccan beliefs I’d almost be insulting Wicca to not really believe them yet use that name for myself. I remember reading about British Traditional Witchcraft many years ago on a forum...the practitioners seemed adamant that they weren’t Wiccan and came first or... I had to laugh. It’s basically the same thing. 🤷🏻♀️
@@nymthenerdywitch I understood the last part of your comment as to that the UK practitioners refused the label „Wicca“. So I meant to say that maybe they didn’t like it because a label was attributed to their practice from others rather than themselves. But maybe I misunderstood that part (I‘m not a native English speaker).
@@miruschkac7880 oooh I see! I don’t think I worded it well. At least at the time the British Traditionalists were claiming that they came before Wicca and got all their practices from long lineages. But it seemed a pretty exact match to Wiccan beliefs and practices. It left me very frustrated!
@@nymthenerdywitch I‘m definitely not an expert but it seems to me that witches and witchcraft have different meanings and connotations in the US and in Europe- and the UK is a probably a special case anyway. Wicca is not a big thing here in my knowledge, but there are many traditions which might be similar are which are still alive. I guess the question of „who did it first“ comes from the appropriation of old European and middle eastern beliefs and traditions in Wicca. It’s as if Wicca would make a copy right claim on things that exist elsewhere, too. I don’t mean this as an attack to Wiccans, more as an explanation of where those resentments might come from 😊.
I guess my issue is the plugin play aspects they use in gods and cultures and the plethora of crappy books the published add that with the toxic positivity of the new age stuff like the secret and I cant help but to be turned off.
It seems to me that Wiccans, especially in the 90’s, claimed witchcraft as theirs such that witches aren’t just people who do certain things but members of a specific ‘ancient’ religion. So being a ‘witch' means that Wicca is your religion in the way that being a 'muslim' means that Islam is your religion. I guess people are having a hard time getting away from that idea and they may feel like it would be disrespectful to fail to acknowledge Wicca in that way.
The 1990s are now 20 or 30 years ago. Things have changed since then. I always thought that the reason a lot of people said Wiccan rather than witch in the 1980s and 1990s was because of the Satanic Panic and people thinking that witches were devil-worshippers. That was my experience at the time, anyway
Yvonne I agree with you. I started practicing back in the late 80s early 90s. That’s when the “boom” happened with people moving to Wicca or witchcraft the terms were used interchangeably. (At least with us youth at the time.
I think the wedge really comes from the cultural appropriation involved with respect to deities, closed practices, and the use of white sage. The framework is almost identical with every witch I meet. If the rest of wicca follows in suit with historical accuracy for a lot of these deities and their original cults and fixes the issues with cultural appropriation, it would dominate pagan/ occult spaces almost entirely.
Cultural appropriation is a witchcraft-wide problem attached to whiteness. None of those things are inherently a part of Wicca, but are rather the choices of people consuming popular info. Initiatory Wicca has its own deities, and its own liturgies. White sage is promoted widely by new age and wellness industries-as long as that’s true we’ll see it all over the place (I saw it in a truck stop just today outside of Atlanta). Absolutely appropriation is a problem, but the way people treat Wicca like it’s both the source and the sole perpetrator just gives other sorts of witches license to not deconstruct their own practices. So it’s messy all around!
Yes! You're right. I am not Wiccan but my ritual is very "Wiccan like" as far as tools and structure. It also in some ways resembles the mass I used to attend as a Catholic. It's very religious like, very ceremonial. My magick or witchcraft, not so much. Wicca opened up the doors to my pagan practices. Like it or not it is the "bones" of my practice as far as my rituals go. Great topic of discussion Thorn.
As someone who's right at the beginning, and has bought too many books already, I just want to say Thank You for saying that! It's been incredibly frustrating to find books on JUST the practice without any kind of deity or god worship involved. :/ I mean, it's one thing to refer to the history of how certain practices came about, but it's another to say "Oh this is TOTALLY not XYZ!"....and then including XYZ pretty clearly. Maybe it's because so very many practices had to be kept secret because of possible persecution throughout the millennia that it's so hard to find dedicated info on it, but still...it's a little maddening. Add to that the very New Age feel of 'modern' witchcraft with crystals and such, and it just doesn't feel like what I'm wanting to learn about. (Basically, I want to know if I can use and gather energy to make stuff happen. If I can, I want some instructions on how to do this, deity free. Because, IMO, I don't really think most deities care if I use earth's energy or not. Why would they? It doesn't make sense to me, but that's a diatribe for another time.)
This is an interesting commentary, one that I've only heard little bits & pieces of (from various sources) in the past. I think that a lot of witches fail to realize just how much influence Wicca has had on the idea of "how to witch" here in the West -- and how different witchcraft looks & feels in non-Western cultures. For example, Bennebel Wen's videos provide an interesting but easily accessible peek at a much more Eastern oriented magickal path. I also have to admit that at times I found myself quietly chuckling because some of your points sound *so* much like conversations I've had about Judaism (the religion I was born into and now kinda-sorta semi-follow)... the whole "are you *really* [X] if you engage in the practices without a strong belief in deity" thing is not at all unusual in (at least) the Reform movement here in the US.
I appreciate this video. Maybe it's just my own perception and not necessarily an accurate one, but it feels to me like a lot of people seem almost reflexively avoidant of Wicca or being Wiccan, and i don't really understand why that is.And I say that as someone who doesn't consider myself Wiccan for various reasons, but knows there's absolutely parts of my own practice that "smell Wiccan." (That's a tension that I am comfortable with and willing to explore.)
Very well put. Something that’s always difficult to distinguish to others especially non practitioners. I myself have a hard time seeing the line and have often become confused when some get very upset or defensive about being called Wiccan or Wiccan “esk “. Thank you Thorn! Nice to see a video from you. Been a while ☺️❤️
The point that sticks out to me the most, that she mentioned, the point that I pretty much live by, is wiccans didn't start out calling themselves wiccan. The practices picked up by wiccans wasn't 'wiccan religion' when it was first invented. I am a little tired of seeing the constant wiccan based literature in my book stores, not because any of it is bad, but because it's all the same stuff retold over and over and I know it all already. It's not that the information isn't good, it's that I'm past that point. There was a time when I was thrilled to be called a wiccan, and then when I learned what I wanted I got tired of it and seeked out 'traditional witchcraft' and that, frankly, was a mess trying to find because it's such a crazy broad subject to search. Eventually, after years of playing 'non-wiccan witch' I sorta just accepted that, yeah, my practice is greatly (if not entirely) influenced by traditional wiccan practice and yeah, I'm still a witch and I prefer the 'witch' label over the wiccan label, but that doesn't make the obvious wiccan influence any less important to my practice. It's both part of the beauty and adaptability of wicca and witchcraft as a whole as well as it's hypocricy as a 'tradition' seeing as nothing about it is really traditional to start. it's all contemporary, new and strung together from obviously many other practices lumped in together. and that's the point where I sorta just lightened up about the whole deal haha
Wicca is to witchcraft world like glitter is to the craft world - it's just everywhere and the prospect of separating them fully is neigh unto impossible.
This is my first video from you. I’m coming here as someone who was raised Christian and still has deep affinity for that religion, but I am still interested in herbalism and witchcraft. So the Wiccan influence is something I’m still processing as a part of all this.
Wicca/Golden Dawn hardly invented concepts as basic as the 4 elements. That’s giving them waaaay too much credit. Using the four elements absolutely does not make your practice seem “steeped in Wicca”....come on
I didn’t say they invented them. I said without the Golden Dawn we wouldn’t have Wicca. My argument is that the popularity and specific articulation of these structures is rooted in a particular moment in the occult revival. I’m not claiming that they originated there. Sorry if that was unclear!
The Wick program for craft cheese was discontinued during the O b-mama administration. We all Work the elements around here especially the grasses, butt there is no Wicker Work Woven excepting possum Grapes as there too small to make Wine just jelly - so jell.
Interesting comments. I agree with you Thorn, totally agree. Important to NOTE, witchcraft IS Wicca. There is ZERO difference. They are both words in different languages that mean ‘witch’ (modern english and old english). Any other definition is made up by people who are uneducated and do not understand both etymology nor anthropology. Secondly, the reality of the situation is as follows--> witchcraft was never, nor will it ever be, secular (ie, non-religious). That is not only historically incorrect, but it actually doesn’t make any sense whatsoever. People who say otherwise simply do not understand l, nor have actual experience, with witchcraft as a practice or a religion. Witchcraft is a magical religion. This calls for wisdom. And for those that are wise and actually understand both witchcraft and magic for what they actually are, stemming back into antiquity, will clearly understand why witchcraft and magic cannot, nor will they ever be, secular (non-religious). Please understand that I dont mean to sound harsh when I say it this way... BUT readers need to understand that witchcraft and magic are SACRED. They are the most sacred arts and sciences that exist. To call them merely “a practice” is actually offensive.
it bothers me when someone says Oh I practice like the old pagans did, I am not Wiccan, and yet they create a circle. To be fair the circle part does not bother me in that scenario. What does is how do you know how the ancients practiced? Alot of that stuff has been lost to history, and alot of the practices you see now are a mish mash of stolen ideas and practices. To be fair there is a part of me that believs that alot of similaritys occur between cultures and their practices, but mashing them up together does not seem like a good plan to me. I am a Wiccan and I both enjoy the circle and have a hard time learning it or ingraining it. My mind goes blank when I try to create a circle but when another does it my mind is open and vast, and i feel all of it. But it is not fair to the Coven to just be the feeler so I will have to work on being the thrower as well.
I see Witches as divine alchemist of nature and guardians of the Earth. Any other types of magical folk practicing in the higher dimesional energy's and realms for any other reasons than the two that I've stated above discredit the craft in my humble opinion. Ostara Blessings eternally 🌛⭐🌜
What I have always found funny is when I come across someone claiming to be a non-Wiccan Witch, yet.....their magical practices and ritual structure all derives from Wicca. If not for Wicca, they wouldn't be practicing what they are, and if one mentions that observation to them they take great offense to it, which is strange because one should be honest and give credit where credit is due. And, I've always wondered how they mentally distinguish witchcraft from Wicca in this way, as if Wicca is just all this belief system in deities, the threefold law of return, and in karma, etc. But Wicca is more than that, because as we both believe, Wicca is also a practice and a structure. What I would totally endorse and find absolutely fascinating is if someone were to create a non-Wiccan witchcraft that actually was non-Wiccan in terms of religious/ philosophical concepts and ritual practices and structure. I would praise someone going to those lengths whole heartedly. And I also agree with you about having the label of Wicca applied onto us at a later date, which really gets the "Trad. crafters" all up in arms because they don't want us calling our religion "Witchcraft." But to my hero, Doreen Valiente, she wasn't a "Wiccan"! She was a Witch and her religion was "Witchcraft!" But, it's become verboten to state these historic facts nowadays. I have struggled immensely with that because the trad crafters want to impose the label of Wicca on me, but like Doreen, I am a Witch and my religion of Witchcraft. Like Prof. JB Russell says in his book "A History of Witchcraft," the term "sorcerer" has atheistic denotations, whereas witchcraft does not; therefore, trad crafters would do best to call themselves sorcerers, but it's the word "witch" and "witchcraft" that they want and that they are attempting to redefine as atheistic. The only point where we would each differ, as individuals, Thorn, is over Wicca's alleged modernity, which is different than saying that Wicca acquired modern influences. Even Ronald Hutton confessed in 2003 or 2004 that he was unable to prove his argument of Wicca's modernity in "Triumph of the Moon." Of course, he went on to confess that as he was writing "Triumph" he discovered and intentionally ignored evidence tethering Wicca to remote antiquity because, and I quote, "it would have disproved" him! This would make TOTM an exercise in Confirmation Bias. A very dear friend of mind and Prof. of Humanities has actually published his Ph.D. dissertation in which he discloses many ancient beliefs and practices that VERY closely resemble Wicca, which we are supposed to believe are modern adaptions to Wicca. Therefore, I recommend Dr./ Prof. Randy P. Conner's "The Pagan Heart of the West." Then of course there are also the shamanic faery/ fertility cults of Europe (e.g., the beandanti, the tattoos, the calusari, ad nauseam) that also have a ritual structure nearly identical to that of Wicca. I was even reading a Balto-Slavic book unavailable in English that demonstrated the traditional witches of central and Southern Europe with no connection to Gardner or Wicca also utilize what they call "magical knives" in their spells. But I digress.... I wasn't surprised when Hutton published a new edition of "Triumph," but after reading it it's much weaker in many ways that the original had been because he attempted to re-argue his former terrain on much weaker ground! For example, he tried putting forth his personal opinion as an established academic fact in the opening paragraphs of chapter two: In order to impose an artificial wedge between ancient and modern pagans he attempts to demonstrate that the ancient pagans were not "nature worshippers" because the Old Gods were not associated with Nature; instead, using nothing to support his claim than his say-so, the Old Gods were *really* deities of human activity and civilization. And those ol' pesky earth-mother goddesses like Gaea and Terra? He dismisses them as "literary figures, rather than actual goddesses" because they apparently lack any temples dedicated to themselves. It took me all of 3 minutes to debunk the latter claim since both Gaea and Terra had famous temples in antiquity! Terra had a temple in Ancient Rome where she was served by the official state priest of Rome, and Gaea had three temples to herself (1 each in the city-state of Athens and Sparta, another along a river) in addition to sharing temple space in Demeter's temple and having alters for offerings in the temples of the other gods! FWIW, I recently discovered source material of early colonialists to America beseeching the Roman god Hymen as they danced the Maypole dance!
