Watching Tom internally freak out and try to politely tell his guests their lists are garbage... this was one of the most entertaining lists I've watched. Thanks!
I think part of the problem is Tom does Top-10s all the time, so he has had to develop very strict definitions to keep all the lists distinct. Steve & Rodney aren't constantly producing Top-10 lists, so they naturally have looser guidelines.
Rodney, Tom, Steven (xxx triple overlap, xx double overlap) 10 Twilight Strugglexxx, Bootleggers, El Grandexxx 9 Small World, Revolution, Medina 8 El Grandexxx, Lancaster, Hannibal 7 Cyclades, Liberte, A Game of Thronesxx 6 Carcassonne, Mission Red Planet, Blood Ragexx 5 Blood Bowl (Card Game), Dominant Species, Amun-Re 4 Forbidden Stars, Wallenstein, Nexus Ops 3 Blood Ragexx, Age of Empires III, Twilight Strugglexxx 2 A Game of Thrones, Twilight Strugglexxx, Struggle of Empires 1 Kemet, El Grandexxx, War of the Ring
I love that Tom's refuting of the fairly rational, well presented explanations of why the games on the other lists ARE area control basically boils down to "well, I don't think they're area control."
I think Tom wanted to exclude them, because otherwise it would have been top 10 war games. I could be wrong, but feel that it is something to this effect.
An ultra-rare peek inside Rodney's brain for some game opinions! Love it. Now that the cat's out of the bag, can we expect a regular Watch it Played segment where Rodney and Pep shout game rankings at each other until someone flips the table? Fingers crossed.
Tom needs this type of dynamic more often. Having people outside his gaming group pushes him more. Not to mention this is the first top 10 in ages where it wasn't full of games I've heard a hundred times before on other Dice Tower top 10 videos.....just sayin'
Me too!!!! I'm new to gaming so many of these games I've never played so looking at the contents, play pieces, boards etc. just adds to these lists and keeps me interested. I usually won't watch the whole list if there are no graphics... I stopped watching
I agree, I kept tabbing over to see the games they were talking about and was sad to not see a picture, or usually even the name on the screen. Wasn't a video guy hired thanks to the successful Kickstarters?
I like rewatching those videos, especially this before/after Top 10 War games. It's a war game, it is about war.It's an area control game, because it is area control. Tom being on opposite sides of those issues in these two videos.
Dogs of War is one my favorite area control games, in part because the area control mechanism is unusual in that multiple players contribute to the outcome in an area.
10) Cuba Libre 9) Wallenstein 8) Mexica 7) Empires: Age Of Discovery 6) El Grande 5) Byzantium 4) Liberte 3) Tikal 2) Dominant Species 1) Twilight Struggle
Tom meant Area Influence for this list. "The Area Control mechanic typically awards control of an area to the player that has the majority of units or influence in that area. As such, it can be viewed as a sub-category of Auction/Bidding in that players can up their "bids" for specific areas through the placement of units or meeples." -bgg entry on Area Control High Command Deck Building Game Warmachine or Hordes - Having the majority in a location long enough for you to score it Eight-Minute Empire Series (Original, Legends, Lost Lands) - because its all about area majority Twilight Struggle
Yeah, this is an amazingly rare insight into Rodney's head. heh We already knew he loved Kemet, but it was great to hear him also talk about other games he enjoys. Great video! :-D
Hannibal: Rome vs. Carthage actually is an "area majority" game that meets Tom's criteria. Yes, it's also a war game, but multiple cities form provinces, and the side that controls a province is the one who controls the majority of cities in that province. It's once of the most important parts of the game, so yeah, it very much belongs on this list.
This list began cracking when Tom questioned Small World being an area control game (Whaaaaa?!). Then, he grimaces at Cyclades, yet includes Mission Red Planet. I "raged out" and shut it down with the Blood Rage disagreement. This list is a mess.
I wonder what Rodney thinks about Scythe, now that he's even made a Watch It Played video of it. It seems to be right up his alley with area control, asymmetric powers, fighting with imperfect information...
It does, doesn't it? :) I did think it was pre-mature to put on the list, as it's so new and most people won't have played it at this point, but it likely would have made the list. Though it wouldn't have fit the definition Tom wanted us to use here :)
haha Fair enough! But in this case, I think he would have had to agree... those points for controlling hexes at the end of the game are as important as anything else, and the building tiles add even more "area manipulation" into the mix. Scythe may not be pure area control like El Grande but it definitely is one of its core mechanics. btw This was a great top-ten! I wish you could collaborate with the DT network more often :)
first thought: everyone seems to always get these lists wrong, when it's clear they're supposed to be limited thought experiments. second thought: wait...tom just probably sends really vague e-mails and doesn't clarify what he's thinking. which is half the fun, i suppose. but there'd probably be less confusion if he went into more detail before shoot? or people just don't read. ;p
I agree with Tom when it came to misunderstanding of what area control board games are. Stephens' top ten was more of a "here's a list of games with regions on the board." Great to Have Rodney on though! Fellow Canadian.
Rodney looks like a scrappy lumberjack who specializes in shimmying up trees to saw off the top. It works. I heartily approve... Tom looks like Indiana Jones' shifty younger brother, who likes to collect artifacts if people hand them to him or he cons them away from people. Buonocore looks like... the head of a board game publishing company...
Blood Rage and Nexus Ops contain area control parts, but it's not the main focus in either. In both, you often get the majority of your points from winning (or in Blood Rage losing) battles. In both, you can also get a smaller number of points from controlling areas related to quests. Not all war games are area control games. In a lot of these games such as Chess, Hordes, etc, you are trying to eliminate pieces from the opponent. Positioning is important, but control isn't as much a concept. In contrast, in Axis and Allies, Risk, and Cyclades, while you don't need more area to win, controlling these spaces is a huge part of the games strategy. The more space you control in Axis and Allies, the more resources you have, etc. I'd argue most of the games are area control. The distinction that usually makes sense to me is area control = one player's units in a space, area majority = multiple players' units in a space.
I find it's one of the most effective ways to win Blood Rage. Quests are huge. Find that one weak, already pillaged province no one cares about, and lock it down for that quest.
It was hilarious to see Tom bursting into arguing and then accepting that he was actually doing area majority list :) yeah, many of the picks are kind of area control. Well, maybe except that auction game, but i haven't played it.
oh, awesome! wasn't expecting to see Rodney on here, but it's a nice surprise :) I would love to see more collaboration between you guys in the future!
+Watch It Played definitely not! Big fan of your channel, my friends and I have learned to play many new games using your videos! P.S. - you should do one for Cosmic Encounters :D
I think this sets a precedent that might allow a Tom, Rodney, Rahdo top ten list! I think Rahdo talked about that in a recent podcast, and I thought it was a good idea! My favorite area control might be Chinatown, although I am interested to see if people agree that it is an area control game.
I used to play Smallworld as one and only area control game. But then I play Mission Red Planet, Cyclades, Kemet, I immediately fell in love with the genre. Still though, so sad that Smallworld did not make it that much into the top 10. It is an area control for me because some races do have some specific agenda over specific areas and other races can block them from taking advantage there. Hey Mr. Rodney, glad to see you here 👍
I like the Top 10 lists, but there is ALWAYS some problems with definitions. Usually it's Sam who goes bananas with some wild definition but seeing Tom face palm when Blood Rage is on this list just makes me think you need to be better define your lists, you have to stop making definitions up as you go!
I agree. The problem seems to be that they never sit down to discuss the definition of the topic at hand and let everybody come up with their own and then discuss on camera. This sometimes makes for entertaining videos, but some not so useful choices on their lists
I can't tell if it is intentional or not... It didn't seem that hard to provide a few sentences of context. The debates are even more pronounced on the audio podcast.
Sorry, guys, Tom's right: Area Control games are games where multiple players have pieces in the same section of the board, and the person with the most in that area wins (or gets the bonus for) that area. Is it a bad name for this mechanic? Maybe. But this is the mechanic talked about when this term is mentioned.
In games like Smallworld, you're pushing the boundaries to increase your area and multiple players can't have their pieces in the same space so it's not area control.
+Christian Bone disagree, sure majority of areas is a strategy, but many combinations are about controlling specific areas, i.e., mines, hills, swamps, arcane sites, etc. sure u can separate out games that don't hold multiple factions in the same space, but that's creating a micro genre. Most games have conflict to resolve multiple factions in the same space, small world streamlines this. If I know u need hills or ____ then when I reinforce I'm going to put more troops on those sites other players are most interested in. If I have more than you can conquer, you can't take it (majority!)
We can debate what the definition of an area control game is, but I think it's important to remember in this discussion is that the name of something ("Area Control games") is not the definition of that thing. That is, saying "It's a game in which you control areas" is not sufficient to classify a game as an area control game, because "A game in which the players control areas" is not the definition of an area control game.
Buonocore!!!!!!!! And the Canadian invasion. Get them on more, hahahaa, loved this vid. And that rarest of things - getting opinions of games out of Rodney =9) So, a point about the discord on what's an area control game: we had two people agreeing nicely, and one inserting strife - looks like you may be the troublemaker here, Tom =8)
My list: 1. Imperial 2. El grande 3. 1960: The Making of the President 4. Endeavor 5. Lancaster 6. A Study in Emerald (1st Edition) 7. Shogun/Wallenstein 8. Rattus 9. Yspahan 10. Samurai
I had Rodney's #1 pegged. I saw play through. I do not know about Steven's Hannibal as I thought that is more of a point to point game. My favorite Area games are war-games Breakout Normandy (1 of Jason's favorites) & Turning Point Stalingrad. BBG ranks them as Area Impulse and when I purchased they we called them Area movement. Maybe these do not fit here but there are no hexes. And Tom you are mean to Steven. I liked his choices.
I agree with Rodney Smith and Stephen Buonocore more on what is area control than Tom's narrow definition. Great list from both of them whereas Tom's list was kinda meh (except Dominant Species, Dominant Species is greatness!!!) So funny watching Tom freaking out though ahahahaa
A few picks that might (should?) have made the list: Java Diskworld: Ankh-Morpork Entdecker: Exploring New Horizons Fief: France 1429 Triassic Terror (I deliberately discluded pure wargames like the COIN series)
I know Tom dislikes this game, but our game group loves Gangster from Mayfair. Kind of old-school art, but love the take that element. We've played it for years! I'm no t sure if it's even available anymore.
Man, after all these years of making of Top 10 lists, you would think by now they'd realize they should take 5 quick minutes beforehand to define the category. How is Small World NOT area control though? It's one of the definitive area control games! It's certainly more of an area control game than the war game Sam classified it as.
Haven't thought about Carcassonne, though i often go for farms. Thanks, Rodney ;) so, my pick is it then, especially when it is one of my favorite games.
1. Mission: Red Planet: Was lucky to be a part of the beta testing. I enjoy this game a lot. Needs more plays! 2. Alien Frontiers: For awhile this was in my top 10, it currently is my #11. Great game, love the expansions! 3. Belfort: This sort of replaces Pillars of the Earth for me, although that game did not have area control, that's why this is better, it has more mechanisms. 4. Lords of Vegas: Only played 3 times, but have won each game. I enjoy the game quite well, but doubt I would buy it. 2 people in my meetup have it. 5. Ark of the Covenant: Since Carcassone made it into the video, I will add this game. It is the Biblical Carcassonne. 6. Carcassonne: Hunters and Gatherers: I have yet to play the original Carcassonne, but have played this and liked it. 7. Age of Empires 3: I agree with Tom on this, fun game. 8. Enemy Chocolatier: Simple game, not elegant, but was fun. 9. Star Wars: Rebellion: Not sure if this counts. Controling areas is 2ndary, but has great advantages for either side. I will include an 11th game, to make up for this possible's exclusion. 10. Murana: Definitely liked it, and needs more plays (but not in a hurry), but a fairly fun game. 11. Memoir '44: yeah it's a war game, my favorite war game, and in general don't like war games much. So this probably shouldn't be on the list, since Tom seemed to want to exclude them. But these are all the area control games I like and have played, that I could think of. As for others listed: Blood Rage: I really want to play this game a lot! El Grande: a game I still want to try.
I think area control is an overall, general term for a style of game, area majority is a far more focused, and narrower subset of the genre. Like fiction and sci fi. In fiction you would get everything from romance to sci fi. Area control gets you everything from war games to area majority. .... and Medina, apparently?!?
Did you change out camera? It seems like the video quality is the best it's been in this video! I can really see the disdain for Buonocore from Tom in crystal clear HD. ;) LOL!
Great Top 10! I find I very much agree with Rodney's choices! I was happy about Kemet, Blood Rage, Carcassonne and, especially, Blood Bowl Team Manager! This game seems so underrated to me. Great choices! I guess I'll have to try Forbidden Stars and AGoT 2nd Edition as soon as possible!! :)
Where does Conquistador fall in your estmation? If don't recall right off, A MID- 70 'S Game put out by SPI. Thought Age of Empires looked like a re-issue when got a glimpse of the boards, but 40 plus yrs, so just asking.
