Agreed, for each bike the finish line got further and further down the hill. Would’ve been more accurate if someone else stopped the clock too instead of him having to reach over and stop his watch.
At the end of the day you get used to what you can afford and what you get used to, to get the job done. And if it gets you out there and home again that is a plus. Love my Turbo Levo Alloy comp.
I was questioning the 120nm Bafang qualifying boundaries for this shoot-out. I think 160nm would def tip the boundary more suitable into Sur-Ron territory😅. I've had 5 different motored eMTBs and I just got out of my 2022 RM Altitude, into another bike e/w Bosch CX Race......apples/oranges, love them both for different reasons. Climbing, Dyname is absolute king👑 everything else Bosch CX Race for the win! 🏎💨
I’ve been riding a RM Altitude PP for 18 months and can confirm it is an absolute beast on climbs. Another RU-vid channel tested one a few weeks back and it got a big thumbs down, I think because he had certain expectations on what an ebike motor should feel like. The Altitude is unlike all the other bikes, mainly because you still have to work to get the most out of it. I will add, ludicrous mode is far too powerful for tech climbs, I find any roots or loose rocks cause the rear wheel just to spin.
Completely pointless "test"... pedelec: nobody knows how hard he actually tried with any of these, and the assistance modes are not equivalent at all. One thing I can see right away though is that he is pedalling like crazy, like some hamster in a hamster wheel (similar body too), waaay too high cadence, he is simply not fit enough - by far.
I believe thats how you get the most out of the motors is by having a high cadence. You dont know how much power he is exerting through the pedals though so power meter would allow him to keep it the same on each bike.
@@chrisblackburn715 " thats how you get the most out of the motors is by having a high cadence." Defnitely not, you apply a LOT higher force when you do longer strokes. Imagine thta you're trying to push away something wiht your legs, quads, as hard as you possibly can, that's defintely not a quick motion.
I already knew who was going to win this test as he presented the list of contenders. The Rocky is a torque monster and because of the mechanical torque sensor, it gives back what you put in... game over 😎
The motor is a blast!! I expected the syncdrive pro to be up there with it; when I test rode the motors climbing a 1.6km hill the were dead even on time, I just preferred the syncdrive and found it smoother and quicker to respond when climbing steeper grades! It was a hard pick between the two.
All these motors need to be tested across the same conditions on old mate bike dyno to get a feel for actual power output over certain conditions and to determine the most efficient cadence range.
For the past 4 years I've been riding 2018 Haibike XDURO Nduro 9.0 & I just got a WattWagon Hydra -. Full suspension carbon fiber frame. Motor: Bafang Ultra M620 48V 1000W Peak Battery: 48V, 880Wh, 18650 cells Torque: 120-230Nm & Now any hill is no problem.
I have 2 emtbs, one with Shimano EP8 and one with Bosch CX. I also tried Yamaha on friends bike. For me Shimano is best because it gives you most natural power delivery. On the same trip with Bosch Iam not even sweating, feels like I did nothing. It just goes like motocycle. Shimano on the other hand is constantly changing level of assistance on all 3 modes based on how you pedaling and it just feels right for me.
The 2 things that should be listed next to each time should be avg cadence, (possibly ideal motor cadence) and the shuttle/overrun settings of each bike's calibration. Maybe Ray, could do a test with a few less variables and his bike dyno, and see how they compare in a more controlled setting..... Also, sometime in the near future hopefully, we will be able to do a real comparison test, as all bikes will have an industry standard drive mounting setup for any brand of drive unit (motor), and the same bike can be tested with 5-6 different motors.
It would have been nice if you cut out the silly music and let us hear the motor noise for each bike... maybe another video with each bike back to back
This was a fun test, so thanks for putting it all together. I live in East Anglia, so not many hills around and zero mountains. I mainly ride for fun, exploring and getting out into more remote areas, I also combine this with a little photography. I have the Husqvarna Light Cross EP8 which is perfect for trailing riding and road use. I actually prefer just riding trails and not racing about like, well ..like I am in a race! I did enjoy the test even though it was comically unscientific, even the finish line kept moving😳. However, it is fascinating to see all the cutting edge motors and frames and well done to EMBN for keeping us all excited about the latest tech.
Geo on the bikes will affect climbing performance, mainly the chainstay length. Under 445 you start getting nose happy and work on keeping the front down, affecting times.
Do this again with Garmin Vector power recording pedals on pavement using identical tires and pressures. Repeat on three inclines of pavement 2% 6% and 12% each with three cadences 60, 80, 100. Extra credit: record voltages and currents during tests. Post spreadsheets.
An interesting little work out but for me range and battery size has a very large influence on decision making. Maybe you could ask for volunteers to turn up and ride in eco mode around the same course untill the battery is flat for comparative range testing. For instance, I believe that the Bosch motor gives 50% assistance in eco whereas I have turned down the PX2 Yamaha in my Giant to 75% assistance from 100% to obtain more range. I like long days out.
The new m560 would have the best chance to make an impression on this group. Advertised as 140nm 750w 3.3kg. Vitus is supposed to be putting one on a bike soon
@@TheOlafmetal For the past 4 years I've been riding 2018 Haibike XDURO Nduro 9.0 & I just got a WattWagon Hydra -. Full suspension carbon fiber frame. Motor: Bafang Ultra M620 48V 1000W Peak Battery: 48V, 880Wh, 18650 cells Torque: 120-230Nm & Now any hill is no problem.
Highly unlikely to see this channel put down any real numbers with the Bafang m620. Too many commercial interest at play, they won’t risk getting angry emails from the other manufacturers..
I expected the syncdrive pro to be at the top 😅 I tested it against the Rocky Mountain on a 1.6km hill climb and they were dead even for time, and I rode the rocky up first. The syncdrive pro was smoother and more responsive on steeper grade inclines. I did notice the dyname 4.0 has 350% assistance compared to the 360% on the syncdrive, and you can feel that little difference, but the dyname is a torque monster!!
Nice test but not totally fair. Agrees with some that clock were stopped earlier for some motors. Need to have a specific start and finish with someone other than rider doing the timing. Would like to see the outcome of such a test
One thing missing in this test or maybe future reviews is how well the walk mode works on these ebikes. In British Columbia we have some long steep trails that you can’t pedal up so you try pushing with your walk mode and the walk mode just doesn’t do much.
I'm wondering what effect rider fatigue had on the times? And it looked like you stopped the clock at slightly different points on the trail for each bike.
Agreed on fatigue. Perhaps consider to try a rider recovery day (or 2) and repeat same test but in reverse running order . A rfid wrist scanner system would be best to ensure distance vs time accuracy.
Great video! I think a comparison of the range of the different motor would be even more informative for us deciding which motor to choose, since every of these emtb motor will give you a great boost in power. Can you make a video where you compare the range of these motors with the same tires and the same trail? Also there's a bike from a startup called Forestal Syrion, which is a high power, but low capacity lightweight bike. It would be very nice to see a review of this kind of bike as well!
That would be a good video! A lot more work though. Each motor is different on each bike and often offers between 250 to 750w, and some coke with optional range extenders. The weight of each bike would have an impact as well for the range, each bike has 3 to 5 modes of power output (changing the distance you can go depending on which mode you’re in)from eco to power mode. You can go even further and have an app for your bike like mine, and change the power assistance percentage for each mode you use to a personal liking. I found the best option in this area is researching each bike as much as possible. If it helps though, all the these motors have the same power and top speed of you put them on eco mode. It’s better to buy a quality motor (most of these are, bafang I wouldn’t ever buy, that’s Amazon and wish quality) on a great bike that’s light, and well priced. Giant is the best for that, they offer great quality at a lower price, because they’re the worlds biggest bike company with 10% of the market.
Very good job, a proper comparison with all the big players I like that. How was the setting on the Rocky Mountain? Ludicrous Factory or all in with +2 boost?
That's because the motor is separated from the bottom bracket. No destroyed motor internals/bearings from pedal strikes, just replace a $25 BB when needed.
oddly enough the sport really is faster when it comes to the Giants . I have 2020 stance and a 2022 Reign I think the 2020 is only 70 nm. While you can't do it because they won't mount up because the bolt pattern is different it be interesting to swap the 2 motors and see what happens. I think the result would be the same but, might change on steeper ground. I do have a Question why don't you use a timing beam of some sort for your time test (I realize it is for fun but you do these timed test frequently enough)?
Very interesting! I am 63 years old and enjoy mild trail riding, and recently bought a new Trek bike with Bosch motor. I must say, this system has impressed me immensely when compared to the (older) Shimano I had before. My Shimano had this irritating ‘throttling back’ feeling once you reach the top speed. With the Bosch, the transition from e-power to human power is much smoother. This is all subjective, of course… Living in Vancouver, I would ultimately have preferred the Rocky Mountain but it was simply too far out of my budget. Maybe next time, if there is such an opportunity for me! Thanks for another enjoyable video.
Rocky Mountain e-bikes are the best motors. Everyone I let ride it tells me instantly it has way more torque and power than their ebike. Also the reliability of them are amazing. On my 2019 RM it still has all of the original motor parts while I know people that have replaced Bosch and other motors within a few months of owning 2023’s.
Just proves its not just about raw power, I was riding the blade trail yesterday in South Wales ive got a Trek fuel exe and my mate has got a Cube stereo hybrid 160 HPC where I was in eco mode on the climb which is wet rocky and quite techy in places, he was struggling to get his BOSCH CX 85 NM power down he lost control a few times and struggled keep up with me and my comparative small TQ 50 NM motor.
Cool, when I’m 80 I can upgrade chassis to a F/S and go a little tamer with a Bafang 120nm motor. And the bike will be affordable for a pensioner in 10 years...
The RM Altitude PP is a mountain bikers e-bike. I tested several different bikes before getting the PP and they all suffer compared to the PP. The overrun on some bike feels very artificial, RM definitely has the best platform hands down.
The reason for the differences is the pedals... just kidding! Do you have the best job or do you have the best job? Appreciate the video! Next time I think you should roll in battery used to accomplish said time. I would gladly give up a few secs if the motor is more efficient about getting up that same hill. I have been interested in getting an eMTB and been down the rabbithole until I realized most of my local trails still don't allow them! Oh well...
There will be too many factors that have an impact on the result, therefore it will be wrong to judge the engines' performance based on such a test. It must be possible to run the engines on a dyno bench and get a fair result.
great video, i think people go for a motoer they like and have faith in as with cars, i am a Bosch motor fan so will probably buy another Bosch emtb thanks again for the review Mr Jones
Owner of trek rail 5 last year with bosch and now rm a50 with dyname 4.0.... The bosh in turbo was more explosive imho and the dyname in ludicrous is more quite at all, very different and appreciable, more effort on pedal on rm, yes, but immediate start on pedal instead of bosch.... more similar to muscle bike i had some time ago, I like it
Oh heck yeah 👌 Rider capability and bike fit Steve Jones. I picked a Husqvarna go figure had to buy at the local motorcycle shop but hey, great service. Happy trails man
Doesn’t Transmisión affect times as well? I’m sure bikes had different solutions and that means different flow and speed on gears transition, or am I wrong?
I understand it's quite niche, but would be curious to see more about the Sachs RS. Although I have the feeling it would be a pain to source service, batteries and whatnot for that.
@frmad,,,- The sachs was bought by its German battery company, BMZ which also supplies batteries for Brose ,so very easy to get batteries for the sachs/BMZ
Why would results not be credible? Do you think there would be big differences if conducted differently? Happy to provide sample set to see margin of error
A legitimate test in my opinion would include the following: two days testing with reverse running order on day two, all bikes having the same tire model and pressure and an RFID starting - end system on track. Simple and credible.
I bet you Aden 1 500 Watts add-on motor on the mtb of your choice would thrash the competition by a mile and some. 42kph top speed, motor support independent from peddling. it's not for the masses, but would reign supreme here as it did acceleration wise at Eurobike.
@@brettrickards It is a motor that is attached to non-motorized bikes. The one I drove on a test mtb was called the powerkit-sport from aden-sports . It's from Germany and would have cost me 2k€. It had the most brutal acceleration of all ebikes I tested on Eurobike 23 and was a category of its own
Nice job, very interesting. I would ride any one of the motors. I look more into suspension, geo, brakes, ect. Oh, and the battery capacity. I'm happy with my brose, and my ep8.
Conclusion: When it comes to power, it doesn't matter which modern full-power motor you buy, other things like volume, dynamics, adjustability and, above all, the rest of the bike are much more important. Even with a Shimano EP8 you will be able to keep up with a Rocky Mountain Dyname 4.0 rider. The motor is not that important, it is much more important which bike it is installed in, because they all have enough power.
Missed Sachs RS of course!! I love high torque but my take away from this is after trying the Giant Trance the geometry and feel of the bike feels right. Difficult to explain but try one and you will feel it. Also missed the pinion MGU on the bulls single pivot rear suspension very plush but the rest of the bike is not nice to ride.
Crikey, the course was about half a mile shorter for the last few bikes! Lol. Id like to see you guys do a proper review of the dengfu bike one day. I like the look kf them nut never really seen anyone go full hammer round a bike park on one.
1 minute isn't enough to make a decision, it should be really steep and technical...that hill isn't that bad so all bikes will probably perform same. The giant has really good low end power and not much pedal effort.
Ok Steve, with all your experience and your job getting to ride all these different emtb's...IF you had to choose One based on the motor alone, which would it be ?
In my experience riding e-bikes for almost 10 years, I've found Bosch Performance CX to be the best overall motor, while Brose tends to be the least reliable.
that's about as unscientific as you can get as far as tests are concerned.... sorry but +/- 15% is easily the margin here which lumps pretty much all bikes in to the same pile... Could have done so much better by controlling for biker wattage, gearing, cadence, multiple runs, external timer and so on
It was never meant to be scientific, sorry you got that idea. We have access to a dyno to get those numbers. Happy to provide the sample set for you to do margin of error. There might well be a shuffle here or there on top six but save yourself the trouble because a different hill would yield different results. By the way we did some of the things you mentioned and also swapped tyres on many bikes to see if/how times would change.
It's great that some "exotic" engines are included. But why not such widespread brands motors like TQ 120, Sachs RS, Panasonic GX, Yamaha... and others ? That would make the comparison even more interesting. Especially Bafang 610 vs TQ 120 vs Sachs RS could finally show what many hardcore Bafang fanboys preaching.... or not 😈
@@yurymleh yes and no, there is a difference in engine control. and that's a massive difference. because the programming determines when and how the engine set free its performance. Some engines already have 100% power at a cadence of 50, others only at 90 rpm. Some engines only for a few seconds boost, other for a constant minute.
@@yurymleh Yes, you're right. However, this is not a really serious test anyway, because too many factors are different in each round. An engine comparison can actually only be made on the test bench. And then compare different situations. With Bafang you could use the standard manufacturer profile for 250W. Just like all other bikes take the standard profile of the manufacturer. But yes, it will be difficult. Especially since many Bafang owners also use settings that make the motor illegal for normal driving. Imo, Bafang is massively overhyped especially because many people are not interested in what is allowed and what is not. They drive a 500W or 1000W mode open. Or a hybrid mix. And then think the engine is the best in the world. I could also buy a TQ120 in "Race" mode, with open 1000W, but I'm only allowed to drive it that way on my own property.
Good test, but if you're on different gears going up, pedaling harder, on a higher heart rate, etc. Too many outside factors to actually have a real comparison. If you kept it on a specific gear, same heart rate range, it could have made the comparison better/fair.
I have a Canyon Strive On Bosh CX, and a Rocky Mountain Altitude powerplay 70 The 29 rocky wheel, the engine torque and the ground clearance of the rocky make it a better climber, the canyon is really close But my canyon is so much better downhill Personally I prefer my canyon, it is safer on the descent but the rocky mountain is really great
I would be interested in the aspects there are more important for everyday people. The speed advantage has zero impact in any other environment than a competition. Battery capacity, ease of use, repairability, long term support sound to much more important. I am afraid small brand motors having issues a few years later can turn bikes into paperweight, as they cannot be repaired anymore.
I would love to see the kind of reliability/ease of sevice you asked for. It was also interesting to see that there isn't much difference in speed, even with that various torque outputs.
The torque isn’t really being tested here as you are keeping the cadence quite high. The torque only comes into play in higher gears at slower speeds. High cadence is testing the horsepower of the motor not the torque. Hence why some of the higher torque motors weren’t the fastest in this test.
Power is Torque x Revs so torque is being tested at all cadence levels. In fact the torque developed at different speeds is probably more important that a peak torque number. We need manufacturers to publish torque speed curves.
@@stevejones7956 so gutting you never ran the bikes on your mates dyno , the precision of that would lead to no guess work . As you have rightly pointed out in the past getting power to the ground is more important but the top brands are all fairly good at that . Seriously, same gearing, same back wheel and tyre , cadence 20 30 40 50 60 70 70 90 100 110 120 130 and the watts would be a banger of a video series .
Bafagn and Ep8 owners all shouting about how steve wasnt keeping time correctly or that the wind changed 😂 great watch , all joking aside probably not much between them all in real life riding but bosch motors are defo some of the best.
