Just stopping in to bask in the glory of my 15 seconds of fame as “the guy” who taught legendary mix engineer Jval how to edit drums. 😂 Let the record show that when I entered Sundown Studios in 2007, crippleware Protools LE *DID NOT* have multi-track Beat Detective and THIS was the reason for the for the manual editing method. Jordan thinks he was the one with reservations about the edits but imagine my frustration when I realized “ugh I gotta do this by hand one hit at a time 😒…” Furthermore, starting at the end of the track is preferred because the transients of the preceding clip are not covered up when you snap to grid. I still generally edit back to front.
I can attest to the guitar tracking. I did a record with John Feldmann once and it took about a day to do a full song. (stereo gtr tracks). You spend more time tuning than playing. We would also hold the chord on a fretboard and the engineer would tune the offensive string (usually G) into pitch, then punch that one chord in......I also learned not to strum the guitar too hard because you knock it out of pitch.
"But not fake." Ummm... yes, they do sound fake. Just because you've internalized the dogma that says everything has to be grid perfect doesn't mean everyone else should. I get that you work in the industry, and the industry has certain conventions. But for those of us who grew up listening to pre-Pro Tools music, we don't hear perfection as a necessity. It feels like it might be worth pushing back on these conventions a bit, if only to make the kind of music I want to hear. I'm not advocating for a sloppy performance. I'm advocating for a naturalistic good performance.
Awesome video! I disagree on drums quantizing (and drum replacement) - almost all rock/metal stuff sounds mechanical to me. For some reason snare sound completely replaced by Bogren libs instead of adding a little bit attack (like on Nirvana's Nevermind).
now we can quantize audio to speed this up even more and just correct the parts that were missed. I'm in studio one these days and this takes me literally seconds to do :-) amazing videos btw!!!
Re drums on the grid, lots of folks taking away the wrong lesson. (For already tight drummers) It's not as much about being quantized as having reliable time. You can't get good takes without a reference. Meaning your options are do takes to the grid, or record the whole band live so that everyone stays in sync in real time. Doing no metronome takes on top of each other into the DAW (not live) turns out like shit.
You get the reliable time by having a good drummer just playing to a click. There is no reason to quantise them because the the point of a good tight drummer is that they are reliable with their time. His point wasn't that you want to play to a click in order to get the timing right and have some consistency for overdubs, his point is literally to edit the drums and quantise the hits to the grid of the DAW. If that wasn't his point, then his story was irrelevant in the first place.
The editing drum on the grid tip is the woooooooorst thing I Ve ever heard. It probably works for metal music, but apply that to any kind of acoustic related kind of music and you ll defenetly will end up killing it. For réal !!!!!!
@@simonwalker2073 yea, and it has been the way the productions have been edited the last 20 years so it s kind of a standar thing now. But our man should have maybe specified that this tip is total genre related. It s an absolute no go in a lot of music genres.
I edit my midi drums to be slightly off grid, specifically if two notes, or pieces of the kit overlap. Be it snare/kick, kick/snare/tom, or a cymbal. Slightly nudging cymbals off grid will also introduce a swing-type of feel, if not already making it feel more human. From a mix standpoint, it helps each piece get its own space in aside from the typical go to mixing techniques - side note, i do alot of metal and still apply this method
Loved the lesson about getting the source right and sounding like a record right from tracking ... Isn't manually chopping drums onto a grid a total contradiction of that? Ain't my style ... but, appreciate the other nuggets of wisdom nonetheless. Thank You.
I got something to say about drum editing.... I love it. I teach it. If it's done right, you preserve the human element and gently massage things to just fit better. Now, you can't polish a cow pie, as we say I'm the south, so there's a lot to be said for good and great performances. But you can take a good performance and have it gel a bit better with the other components that make up a song. I would have a different opinion for songs recorded with the full band live on the floor, but if you're tracking the band separately, drum editing ensures that whomever is tracking after drums has something reliable to track to without having to predict if the next beat will be a little ahead or a little behind.
White stripes, foo fighters, anderson paak and many more mainstream artist are not quantised. I think that making records with everything being completely in tune and to the grid is somewhat robotic. However, a lot of metal records are quantised to the millisecond because they have to sound super tight. I guess it depends on the genre and how good the musicians timing is. However, integrity of the performance is also really important.
I think that quantizing is necessary, but doing it 100% is a little bit too much. The best way to quantize is to snap the main hits like 80/90% onto the grid and leave most of the secondary hits a little bit off if they're not distractingly off
Super encouraging to hear that even the professionals take a long time to track guitars. I always feel like I suck at guitar when I track. Partly because I do but also partly because it takes so much attention to detail, much more than the average bedroom producer would think. Also, I probably need to pay more attention to my tuning than I do now. Thanks for the helpful advice!
Your first two examples are literally 100% identical to mine (minus the Jonas Bros)... The producer I learned from was whipping out hit level music in like ... a DAY. And I was over there agonizing for a week on a song. Changed my whole world in how I make music - we were making stuff for commercials where we'd need a FINAL production sent off in a freaking day... it was incredible. And then drum editing - YUP. My first day in that studio went like this... Him:"Hey, Nathan you know how to edit drums?" Me: "Yeah I think so" Him: "Sweet... edit these drums. I'm gonna go workout." Me: .... uhhhhh okay And that was the start of it all - and that record was KILLER. I was blown away by how good the drums sounded and it changed my whole perspective on solid performances and solid editing working together. Great video my friend
One key aspect is what does come into the microphone is the greatest factor for a great result. "Fixes" are not a friend of mine... Enhancements are a huge friend of mine.
I can't express enough how important these simple lessons are towards achieving the best sounding songs possible. The moment you learn to commit, persist, and have a "can-do" mindset, instantly elevates your productions. Never settle for less everyone. Settle for the best and you'll be busting out quality tracks in no time!
Interesting story. While I do not produce music for a living, I have picked up things here and there over the years myself, and always trying to improve my skills, where I can. The best thing I am have done is prebuilt a drum template with the plugins that I want applied to each drum, cymbals, virtual drum room. Such a huge time-saver. Also taking it to another level and prebuilding the guitars, bass and vocals with the plugins I want applied to them. Even if I do not ultimately use all those pre-built tracks (I call them the "swim-lanes" in Cubase). I also went from using my Line 6 Guitar Port to a BIAS FX2 and started using the tones that come with it with a few tweaks. Constantly learning. Constantly growing. But yeah make sure those guitars are in tune and have the proper intonation. Also you will laugh when I tell you that I use low dollar Logitech PC speakers to mix, and some AKG HP4- headphones. I will sometimes mixdown to MP3 and then listen in my vehicles or in headphones on my Android for comparison. Again, always learning.
John Bonham, Ringo Starr, Keith Moon, Stewart Copeland, Ian Paice, Charlie Watts, Jimmy Chamberlin, Dave Grohl…all great drummers BEFORE pro tools. All would be RUINED by snapping to the grid. Only garbage mainstream radio pop and rock quantises drums. It IS ruining music.
REALLY great metal bands can get away without gridding their drums. Slipknot, Meshuggah, and Slayer are good examples. If you're not GREAT, you probably need to grid your drums.
Great info here, thanks! I agree, the drum editing takes the production up so much even if a good drummer performed. Spending that extra time to get a great, tight guitar performance is also worth it. It all gives it "that pro record sound". Cheers!
Cool to find out the person behind the mixing of the Remarkably Human. When it was released, I listened it non-stop for a weeks and still listen it quite often. Now that I've started to produce my own music, I've used that record as a reference. Of course, the feeling and the composition of the songs, Nicks virtuosity with the guitar and overall balance makes it really great album, but I've also found it to be the really pleasant and balanced mix too. Being that complex music it still is very clear and fresh sounding and kinda as "simple" as it can be, thanks to the mixing. The album has also influenced me to use a lot more piano in my songs since those sound so good on the album.
I'm not going to complain, "drums on a grid" but I do think you are kind of suggesting a subjective as an objective. Its not a "pro" thing its a style thing. I have no issue with you editing drums, I do have issue with you claiming its a "pro" thing when that is just not the case. Its a genre specific thing "so who's in the studio today" "a well known Doom band , they want a really roomy live feel to the album" "oh cool , I guess no drum editing for us then?" "nope we are gonna edit the shit out of it, " "what? even though they have specifically stated they want a room/live feel and are paying us hundreds maybe thousands to do this?" "Yep" "why?" "it's what the Pro's do" Really bro? Pretty sure you would not pull such moves yourself, why are you implying others should be? And if you acknowledge that its a taste/genre thing, what has it got to do with being "a Pro" Maybe that is why people get annoyed with you always pushing this point, maybe its not the drum editing, maybe its the False" its what the Pro's do" angle that annoys people? In my context that is certainly the case
As far as griding: It really depends on what kind of music you're doing. If you're recording a rock band ( Especially one where some rough edges are desirable and where the musicians have a good feel with each other) I think you're much better off tracking live in the room and getting a really good drum take, NOT griding it, & then doing overdubs on top of that.
While I understand drum editing has its place and is applied a lot, i'm pretty sure that it is not applied to the top tier drummers. You really think the drumparts of Steve Gadd or Vinnie Colaiuta are going to be stuck to a grid? You think Omar Hakim or Manu Katche have their drums quantised to a grid? Maybe Dave Grohl? It totally defeats the purpose of hiring these guys in the first place if you end up quantising their timing. Their playing makes the music and a part of that is exactly their timing. They will play to a click just to make sure things can be overdubbed when needed. But apart from that, their parts are not quantised to a grid.
My opinion of editing drums, auto tune, vocaline… etc. it’s the spice of mixing. You get amazing performances and then just add a little extra spice to put it over the top. I agree it ruins music because it allows people with less talent to sound talented? Maybe that’s why people don’t like it.. I’m not sure but either way it’s a necessary thing if you wanna keep up and make a living
Guitar performances was a giant crutch for me in my earlier years. Ive trained myself to know what to listen for. Sloppy takes are the biggest no go's. I have guys come in and record DI tracks. I track a take then listen back with a random amp sim. Doing this will help you zone in on any little nuances then need to not be there. Such as clicks pops random feedback and accidental string ringing.
I do all these things as well. I put the drums on the grid, then the same with the bass. Then I tighten the guitars, putting the first guitar on the grid as best I can, (it's a lot easier if you have DI tracks. It's harder to align amped, distorted guitars) then aligning the second guitar to the first.
Having the drums on the grid doesn't ruin the song. However if you have enough inputs and the entire band can track live it can definitely sound better. This is because when you play live you feed off each others energy. This groove or flow is somewhat magical when the mood and tones are good. It can harness your best performance as a unit. Nothing inspiring about tracking with a click in your ear. No right or wrong way just different methods. Pros and cons for everything.
Love love love your content brother man, thanks for being so open and transparent about your techniques, like most people aren't. Charismatic, competent, debonair, all qualities I admire in a great teach and mint content. Keep fighting the good fight ! -SH!ELD
I dont believe the ‘on the grid’ story since the ‘70’s productions still sounds the best and more natural than the pro tools grid. It could be that your thrill has to do with the mix falling into place. I can Imagine that, but in the end that’s not what the pro-productions in the last 25 years made sound better.
Point 2 I really resonate with. I write and record my own songs. Apart from the occasional vocal, or pulling in a friend to play something - because I have talented friends and they can add to my songs, I play and sing everything - vocals, bass, guitars, keyboards, drums etc. I do this for myself and I'm happy to use anything to make my songs like I want them to sound. Nothing is sacrosanct.
Yeah, I so a similar thing. However, from watching this video I thought about how I wouldn't snap drums to the grid but just go away and try to play them better. I like that the production work forces you to really listen to your performances and overall song arrangement but ultimately I prefer to try to feed it back into my playing rather than try to produce a hit sounding album through production. It's a hobby/pastime for me really :)
I really admire these pro tips, they can be very very helpful for anyone to improve their game. But let's not lose perspective of the most important thing. Good fucking music and staying true to its nature. The emphasis made on the drums being on grid and actually end up ruining some records. Of course not all of them! And of course not every record should be left unedited. But it is really really important to distinguish when it actually serves the music and when it doesn't. I do not have the same experience in years as you do, but with my 8 years of experience, I can say that the records I am most proud of are the ones I recorded without a metronome, every musician live at the same time, just every amp in a different and a good monitoring system for the tracking. And of course no on the grid editing.
Remarkably Human is one if the best mixed albums I’ve ever heard. It’s still my favorite Nick Johnston album, and it’s how I learned about your channel (along with an interview you did with Graham Cochran on his channel).
Great video. Very insipring. I think it can also be seen in other lines of work how putting that extra work in for perfection really makes something stand out and transcend competition.
Good video! some comments on the points you made: #1: yeah this is what separates the engineers from the bedroom musicians! I interned (at this point it felt like an assistant job that i didn't get paid for since i was setting up and tearing down most sessions with the assistant engineer) during some huge sessions and it was like we set up and just let the artist do their thing knowing it would sound incredible later because we prepared and setup mics perfectly and fast. this is why workflow is so important in the end! our job is to have a session super smooth for the artist and producer so they don't even realize we are there. we are pro tools operators and mic placers at the end of the day. The producer can be i want a warm guitar sound for this part, it's our job to know which mic will be best for it (likely a ribbon) and know where to place it on the guitar/cab. mixing shouldn't be about tone crafting and cleaning up bad sounds, it should be about putting stuff in a place to hit your emotional center. #2/3: i disagree, drums shouldn't always be edited to a grid, they need to be edited to the song and the other instruments. if the rest of the track is to a grid then yes do it, but if you want feel it needs to be edited to the other instruments. If you aren't editing drums and the other parts it won't have that pro record sound that's for sure! having something out of time can seriously mess up the phase of the bass relationship along with other parts. the tighter stuff is the more they will gel and sound bigger together because they are more in phase. same applies to guitars. Things need to be tight not necessarily to a grid, but with each other. As far as putting the time in for guitars: yes i totally agree, BUT good luck finding a budget for that when you are working with small artists. #4: oh hell yeah! never skip on pre-production! If it doesn't already sound like a record you gotta keep in that phase and tweak. Sadly i feel like most unsigned indie bands these days are just releasing pre-production recordings because they can't afford recording studios. I started out doing pre-production sessions with local bands for free. definitely helped get my name around town and one band member of one of those bands is now huge on youtube. so that counts for something haha. #5: confidence is everything. if you don't have clear confidence in your decisions the mix won't be good. It's something i'm still working on today. But when i get in that groove it just works. Most people don't focus on the details we hear and the more we fixate on those fine details the worst the general picture gets. if you focus on the big picture and only work on the details that improve that picture it'll go much better. and of course if you made sure to get good recordings it makes this process a whole lot easier and quicker.
Great video, as always, mate! Do you think that you'll ever do a video on the main master bus channel? I've always followed the misha / nolly formula, of always starting with EQ / Multiband compression / limiter on the master bus before you get going with the mix, etc. Cheers!
We were taught this method for editing a multitrack recording, drum-kit like that you showed in Pro Tools. I can just say that Cubase can make this tempo-map with its editing a lot faster than Pro Tools.
Is it posible to fake the NS10'S by putting filters in my master bus? or its just a dumb idea... I currently have Kali LP6, very happy with them all things consider
Wow... just... wow... i'm so glad i'm doing all of this while still an amateur and i'm not too far out: having the drums perfectly on the grid (or 99% there), recording the best guitars possible, not getting hung up on gear. I'm so happy with this because it really seems i'm doing something right and this shows, because a lot of people compliment my work because it sounds so good
I think the Jonas brothers one still shows that shooting out gear etc is important. For a complete beginner, hearing differences in gear on multiple sources can help greatly. I just graduated audio school and my mixes suck but I instantly know what I am going to use, what my signal chain is, mic position etc or when I mix, what EQ or compressor would solve an issue or bring out something I am after. Having an opportunity to do that (while the client is away) can greatly help with decision making on the fly.
Andreas has such an ear man. He taught me most of what I know without actually teaching me haha. This is a great video. Been following for years always great stuff.
Fantastic vid! Thank You. Very inspiring and informative. I've spent about half my life in the studio as a musician and in the last 4 years have really been focussed on learning, understanding and progressing my engineering and production skills. I greatly appreciate Your content. Peace man, keep inspiring and thriving!
Thanks for sharing I really loved the Video and so far the most important parts are musician and instruments, get everything right in the beginning and not the end. How do you deal with slackers? Do you have a video about that?
love the statement "transitioned from a audio nerd, to a producer" --- i am getting better, but I used to spend alot of time on my guitar tone -- way too much time.... it was great, and all necessary work to make it good was done -- but i just continued tweaking it ... for no reason, it was almost like a compulsion. I have recently become so busy with the band that I dont have as much time to mess with it, but i still find myself getting distracted on it and will waste an entire practice session -- ruined! This is what I needed to hear right now to really start making changes -- i want to learn how to mix and record my band better and spend time on leading my band and producing great music ... not down the deep dark tone rabbit hole of death. Thank you - love you channel
Thanks Jordan, really appreciate your videos, this is so helpful... sharing the milestones of how you moved from amateur to pro gives invaluable insights...stay humble and be blessed...
awesome video. almost left a mix with unedited drums and wasn’t confident in that decision. putting in some extra unpaid time to make sure it reflects my skill. do you have any videos on drum editing?
Everything said in the video has nothing to do with engineering or mixing besides the Yamaha NS-10 speaker suggestion. Most of these are choices that aren't even supposed to be made by an engineer but a producer. If I hired an engineer for a beat I was producing and they made my Drum Timing or Guitar Timing "tighter" or something like that they would be fired. That's not their decision, they are supposed to make my hits sound good out the speakers. Your job as an engineer should be communicating with Speakers not making decisions like that.
“Remarkably human” is pretty much the only solo guitar record I not only like but actually love. And I’ve always loved the sound. So hat’s of to you, Sir! PS: Are these drums quantized?
@@hardcoremusicstudio Damn it. The question is if it’s always necessary or mostly done out of habit. I’m sure Nick had a pretty good drummer for that record.
@@aeonic_drums Wow, I didn’t know that. He is incredible. I highly doubt the record got more „pro“ by quantizing his performance. Quite ironic on a record called „remarkably human“. 😉
Most of the big things you hear on the radio: yes. But I have to say the best music in existence you won't hear on the radio. Say Lizzy McAlpine: amazing songwriter. Stacey Ryan, Raquel Rodriguez, Stephen Day, Conor Albert, Lianne La Havas, Shannon Lauren Callihan, Mac Ayres, Tom Misch, Sam Wills. At least in my opinion they're all great. And if ur looking for something a little different, there's this dutch band called Dragonfruit: they're great as well. And I'm sure I missed a ton of great ones
Awesome video. Your videos are top notch. Question: So do you always quantize the drums on every mix? You don’t think this is for all genres, or do you?
