Because he does gave a small cadre of loyal fans, and they deliver a consistent amount of sales. It's considerably less than 20k, but in this depressed market, at least it's steady. The problem is he drives any book to that same level eventually. That's why DC won't give him popular characters anymore, but only relatively obscure ones.
Hearing what Tom King did to Mr Terrific after reading Geoff Johns’ JSA series that showcases the grief and sadness that Mr Terrific feels towards the death of his wife and unborn child, disgusts me. How can you ruin Mr Terrific? It’s harder to mess his character up.
I've battled depression my whole life and have often turned to comics as a source of relief. HiC made me angry and more depressed. It also made me despise Tom King (what he did to Wally is unforgivable). If doom and gloom is his thing, then fine, go write sad YA novels or something. Just get the hell away from superhero comics.
Well Said. I give the benefit of doubt since the things behind the "event" were being stupid but after finding out about what he did to Mister Terrific and BG....so yeah I give up.
You forget the biggest assassination - he killed what was left of Rebirth with Heroes in Crisis, but also killed so many fans love of DC Comics! I have had more people tell me that a Tom King book was what made them quit reading DC Comics than every other writer combined!
Yeah, once Geoff Johns got pushed out Tom King, Scott Snyder, and Bendis all nuked Rebirth in their own crap directions. (I loved Scott Snyder Batman but his tenure as essentially the architect of the DC universe was abysmal.)
i think my favorite criticism of tom king i've seen is that he writes stories before thinking about characters, and he just inserts whoever he wants for that comic afterwards.
That's Scott Lobdell (Flash Forward) and Jeremy Adams. I associate Williamson with a terminally boring and generic Flash run that got nuked in HIC and continued to drag on afterwards.
Tom King destroyed anyones interest in seeing Batman with Catwoman. Least that’s how I see it, at this point id have a easier time dealing with him and Talia together lol
Its amazing that the one I consider the most egregious: Booster Gold, who got completely, positively, utterly mauled, tortured and desecrated by Tom King isn't as bad as to be in the list.
I think its quite obvious that Tom King wants to be the new Alan Moore and that's why he deconstruct any DC hero he can get his hands on. He is so out of touch with the fandom that after all this time, he probably still expects praise and awards for his morally ambivalent takes on classic superheroes. If it worked for Alan Moore, why shouldn't it work for me?
@Another Comics And Movie Fan Yes, that sucks. But at the same time, how is that our problem? I know that's harsh, but comics are expensive, and I'm not spending my money for his therapeutic outlet.
@@jaylucien669 Maybe that's the problem. Instead of trying therapy, people write all of this off their chests and produce stories that are anything but entertaining. Just get help and let really good people do it. 😏
@@harvey2906 What if he enjoys being that way? What if that's his identity? I've known plenty of functioning miserable people in my life. I mean it's not like he doesn't have the money or insurance to seek out help. He might very well not want to because he likes the way he is.
Why doesn't DC Comics just pay for a therapist for Tom King so that he doesn't need to deal with his mental issues publicly through the medium superhero comics?
I didn’t really realize it at the time but Heroes in Crisis is basically what allowed me to cut ties as a reader with DC. I still picked up a few books here and there, but it didn’t just wreck “my” Flash, it also made the Trinity look like total incompetents. Ultimately I blame Dan DiDio, though.
Tom King is that dude who thinks the best way to make something interesting is to either set it on fire or absolutely bastardize it. What he did to Martian Manhunter, Wally West and Mr Terrific would make John Ridley proud. And Ridley wrote that horrible story where Clark gets violated in prison.
I grew up reading the old Adam Strange comics from the 60s and 70s thanks to a cousin who passed them onto me. Adam Strange was like an old school serial show : big hearted wonder with a lot of fun. But nope, King has to tear these icons down. I wonder if he and Zack Snyder have a what's app thread where they exchange all their terrible ideas freely.
Tbh, it’s sad that mr king most definitely relishes in his own pain this much, I’m sure he might be a decent person, but his stories are as uncomfortable as he might be. You can tell a story about anything, but it needs be a responsibility to know that superhero comics are and should always be fun escapist fiction!
Building up women By downgrading the Men It's the same game But in reverse First the women Now the men Ever thought That we are puppets In some sinister game
A LOT of current Marvel and DC writers are technically strong writers. They just don’t give a shit about any of the characters they are writing about. The comics fill in the writer’s schedule and pay the monthly bills. Otherwise they all don’t give a fck what does or doesn’t work.
Heroes in crisis was peak men writing self hating men. Hell i feel Tom king envy the ideal of woman social lives and emotions by putting them on a pedistool that book
Thank God it’s revealed that Thawne actually was responsible for Wally covering up his Speed Force accident by whispering into his ear using his Negative Speed Force powers.
“it was me Barry, I was the one who tripped you during your 3rd grade soccer game!!” The meme is pretty funny but it’s become the speedsters get out of jail free card. Though I’ll take it for helping try and course correct for my man Wally.
When I was a lad, comics writers and artists were known for being pretty approachable and generous. Tom King has written some stories that I really liked (Swamp Thing meets Batman, Kite Man, probably at least one more thing...maybe), but I think he embodies the polar opposite of the personality it takes to be in the comics profession. He's rude, arrogant, and has no respect for the source material. He can't even fall back on being likable.
Tom King wants to be Alan Moore, but he’s actually a dick. He shouldn’t write for DC. He should write independently and base his stories on his own characters. I haven’t picked up any of his books since his run on Batman.
This is why when a writer is destroying characters, the editors should pull the writer. Even if it’s a super star writer the editor should keep writers in check. But BMB is the worst, and Tom King’s stories are not for heroes. He should make his characters at that point.
I will admit, I did enjoy the war with jokes and riddles but not because of the actual story but kite man's very sad origin story that was made in there was the only thing from it I really enjoyed.
Classic Tom King move - hurt a child (or at least pretend to) to get an emotional response. It is such lazy writing, and he does it a whole lot! It happens in Jokes & Riddles, Up in the Sky, Strange Adventures, Batman/Catwoman, Gotham City: Year One, Swamp Thing Winter Special... Mix in the Daddy Issues he writes in every story and I am done with his books.
I completely agree! After Strange Adventures I quit actual comics. Maybe I read Superman/Batman by Mark Waid because of yours reviews. I don't know about the history of Mister Terrific when I read SA, but I just get disappointed with M. Terrific when I read that page. This is what Tom King do with this characters. Wally West is my favorite Flash, in what book I can read this new run?!
The fact there is a top 5 list shows how bad things are at dc. The worst was Mr Terrific. cannot stand his writing it's the same style as bendis but with even more spite.
Well that’s an interesting title😂 But accurate. Tom King is a lot like Alan Moore. He can write great superhero stories, but he clearly doesn’t love the genre
@@lacolem1 I disagree, Alan Moore loves comics or he used to as evidenced by his two fantastic Superman stories and later with his ABC line and 1963 at image. Plus the twilight of the gods storyline was just pure love of comics until bad business dealings soured him to the business. Tom king, I disagree with as well being the man has an almost Quentin Tarantino sequel encyclopedic knowledge of comics. He’s Batman run wasn’t really all that bad and had some decent heroics going on. He gets too much baggage as an Alan Moore knock off. With human target, love everlasting and Gotham city year one I’d say he’s gone on to be inspired by Darwyn Cooke.
I totally agree. I think Talia al Ghul is a much better partner to the detective. Thank God the woman is a ruthless killer that Tommy had little room to warp the character into his own fantasy.
Well we know he doesn't care about the characters. The thing about Mr T being happy his baby died. It is gross and disgusting. I can't stand Tom King. What is wrong with DC??
Tom King has killed more characters I cared about than a Steven King novel. He's killed character relationships, the character of beloved heroes, romance, my expectations and attention to newer comics.
Personally for me it was Orion while the mr miracle series was terrific overall it was what made me distrust king because I knew he just did not learn from the mistakes of Morrison, starlin, and waid. While Orion is a god of war that even Kratos would wave a white flag at because of his power and capacity for death and destruction, but at his core he’s a man who fights his inner hatred because he was taught a better way of life and won’t even show his face because all he can see is what he hates most. Hell he’s even shown to be a good man to his family and friends being truly grateful for his adoptive father/mentor, dying to darkseid so he could rescue his mother, being a understanding husband to bekka, valuing lightray as a true friend and even respecting Dan Turpin for being able to down kalibak. He’s not a spoiled prince, he’s not a berserker, he does not take pleasure in war and genocide, he doesn’t even want control of apokalypse only becoming its tyrant because it was either necessary (Batman beyond) or because despite all his efforts the peasants in the Armagetto want to be ruled by a tyrant like darkseid and following in his footsteps until they can be enlightened is the most compassionate thing he’s capable of until then(kingdom come) I will admit the vegetable tray scenes are gold.
Tom King formula - Take a character who is an 8/10... make them a 4/10 piece of crap... try to redeem them by the end to make them an 8/10 and expect praise and wonder why it's not happening. Also, add heaping helpings of Daddy Issues, no knowledge of the DCU or it's characters (ex: so many of the HIC confessionals), forgotten plot points, make your own story ambiguous endings, some good old fashioned kid murder, wow moments that make no sense (ex: Bat Burger), repeated phrases, public domain poems, songs and fairytales... how does he have fans, let alone diehards?!?!?
The recent adaptations of Selina Kyle are sickening to me, I do, or rather, did love Catwoman, but I'm personally glad that I didn't read anything that Tom King wrote. Selina Kyle lost me since she "came out" as bisexual because ever since she's been unrecognizable to me. It's a crying shame what they're doing to her. Tom King must have read Gotham High and said "yeah that's a good idea!" when it's not.
@Another Comics And Movie Fan 100% I agree! It doesn't have to be hard to write her, but they make it hard and on top of that they make her unlikeable. They've ruined Batman too which does surprise me that they'll destroy the real money maker, but two for the price of one, you'd think they'd learn by now then again the most hard headed person can only take so many blows before they're dead completely. I'll stick to how Selina Kyle was when she was written correctly. I've always said anything current will never be considered canon and I stick by that.
@Another Comics And Movie Fan That's true. I played Gotham Knights, for all the love I have of that game, Tim sounding like a gay stereotype is something that's painful to me. It makes me appreciate the Arkham Knight's Tim Drake more. There is a way to write gay and bisexual characters, but what these writers do isn't it.
@Another Comics And Movie Fan They tried to make Batman bisexual and it didn't work out well for them. It's just people who don't like or read comics are writing fanfiction and calling it finished work. Fanfiction has never been my favorite thing and I'm a role-player on my days off.
If DC did their Future State right. I could see them putting Jon's superman and the new wonder woman in a relationship and having it work. But I guess that idea is down the drain
I have a feeling we will be adding Ice to the list soon.... with only two issues to go, who else could it be? Unless they pull a "Murder on the Orient Express" and just say it was the entire JLI, which would be terrible for ALL of them
Tom King is pretty high on my “Do Not Buy” list. Much like Bendis, it’s amazing to me how he’s gone from being so popular and critically acclaimed to being a complete punchline in such a dramatic way. I hope the man leaves comics and seeks the help he needs.
My theory on this phenomena is that writers like them are liked by “comic fans” that will only be into comics briefly. Not so much actual life long comic fans who have passion for the medium.
@@RamManNo1Maybe, but I’ve been reading comics for almost forty years, and I loved a lot of Bendis’s stuff over the years. Would any of it hold up now if I went back and read it again? I don’t know. I don’t have the time or inclination to do that, anyway. Tom King initially showed some potential, but he can apparently write only about depressed, unheroic beta males with mommy-wives these days. Who wants to read that over and over again?! They’ve both just kind of stagnated into writing the same, boring stuff over and over. There’s no passion or wonder in their writing now. It’s sad.
I've never seen Catwoman written so badly. I didn't understand her motivations. King kept time jumping in Batman/Catwoman. Now I like Batman and Catwoman together but the way King wrote them is completely ridiculous. That wasn't Batman and Catwoman. Even now with Tini Howard writing Catwoman, it's like the character doesn't deserve Batman.
Wes I would love to hear a retrospective on identity crisis from DC. I don't know but I feel a reread may show the trend towards damaged characters in the DC line could be connected to that story. Let us know please 🙏
Yeah that story was dumb as hell. While Marvel had their Disassembled/Civil War. The era they really started letting non-comicbook writers do what they please.
@@RamManNo1 I don't know. Their was a deep demand for character depth at the time that had been lacking in the DC line. Marvel traditionally unpacked their heroes through the history of their relationships. DC did it through the antagonist protagonist archetype of the heroes journey. Both relying heavily on supporting cast to flesh out the main character, but Marvel typically connected the origins of villains to the person behind the mask, as much as the hero. DC, not so much. The hero was the character, and the civilian identity was almost nomenclature for an obstacle that prevents relationships with supporting characters becoming worthwhile. It was really Batman/Joker rather than Peter/Norman. Superman/Lex over Xavier/Magneto. Now identity crisis did to the justice league, what victor von doom would do to the fantastic four. It cut this team if icons down to their alts, being laid bare before each other and forced to question how to survive as a family. Just an observation but the decision to humanize the League has subsequently been beaten into the ground, but Identity Crisis was refreshing at the time for it's grit and reality for it's time. I mean c'mon man, boomerang and Tim Drake's dad? That was gold.
@@FussMonsters Meh. idk. That style of “mature” writing in super hero comics seems kind of cheap to me. And, ironically, cheesy. We are reading books with pictures after all. And it did pave the way for guys like Tom King and Bendis and their ilk to desecrate the medium. Maybe I’m old fashioned?
@@RamManNo1 maybe it was simply an understanding of the broad swath of fans aging with the medium and some attempt at engaging with the themes of the readers. I can almost guarantee that is not a priority now. It's all fluff to mine for Cinema. Traditionalists like your self can agree, I'm sure, that their are plenty of Golden, silver or even early modern day plots to pull content from and that doesn't necessarily run the risk of alienating younger audiences. That's what I can't wrap my head around, if we were reading these stories as kids, why does the studio system assume that they won't resonate with kids today? Some of these are timeless. Kravens last hunt, the trial of Barry Allen, hell the outback years for the X-Men for gods sake would be a great explanation for their MCU intro. But odds are they'll go with Krakoa which we all agree isn't even the same concept anymore. It's just a different book altogether, just with X marketing on top. Who knows man, themes are classic, that's why daredevil v kingpin worked so well. Etc
I don't read superhero comics very much, but I talk to people at my LCS and pick up on a lot of what's going on by osmosis, but I was still shocked when I got to 2:08, I had to stop the video. With the Joker!?!? What!? The Joker?
Adam Strange,Batman,Guy Gardner but nothing matchs your Wally West character assassination.This guys needs get lost from DC.Tom King must stay away of heroes comics.
It wasn't Tom King who hates Wally West, it was Dan Didio. He was mandated to do that to Wally, and to kill Roy. HiC was the comic book that has done it for me. I stopped buying DC Comics on a monthly basis after that. No I just buy comics for the covers.
King does not write DC characters well at all. He doesn't understand them and I don't think he even wants to. He is too concerned with HIS story that he wants to tell. Everyone he writes is so wildy out of character that they are unrecognizable. Adam Strange and Alanna have never acted the way that he wrote them. I don't consider anything that he wrote to be canon. I just want him to go away.
@@Wes_From_TC I’m not as hardcore a fan as most probably but I dip in and out here and there. I just finished his Strange Adventures and had a good time with it
Some of his other character assignations can be accredited to a lack of talent, but King had to go out of his way to break Wally West. No accident, completely on purpose.
So I own all of heroes in crisis and for awhile I’ve thought it’s over hated. Almost like a TLJ of Dc comics sort of thing. After hearing this tho I understand why it is. Wally tho I don’t feel like has been unsalvageable as he’s been alright in the Flash comics, but that might just be because I am a Flash super fan and read every issue regardless
Tom King didn’t have understanding of Batman and Catwoman. I’m fan of Tom King but this is true about him that he does destroy the characters he write. That moment Batman should have prevented the crime but he didn’t.
I stuck with HiC because I truly believed the last few issues would turn things around and there would be an awesome payoff at the end. Ya, know, because comics. But nope, TK showed me what he's all about with that debacle. It also showed me just how garbage DC's editorial had become.
@@jaylucien669 I miss DC's good stories, when the editors still knew what that meant. Nowadays there are only morons in the editorial office. Does anyone have Lobo's number? I need his help. 😉
Sound horrible. Sorry but I checked out on new comics a LONG time ago (the last "new" purchase was Garth Ennis PunisherMax run). It's been manga and old back issues ever since.
Gotta disagree. I spent my career writing. I've written everything from book sections to corporate bios and everything in-between. A good writer can write anything. All it takes is a bare minimum of research and effort with your subject. Tom, like many 'name' Marvel/DC writers is simply a bad writer... if you can call him a writer at all. Putting words on a page in an order is meaningless in fiction if you do not capture the reader. His books don't do that. I put him in the Bendis class where without two Fortune 500 PR departments TELLING you how great they are, you wouldn't come to that conclusion by reading their work.
7:39 artists nowadays are so lazy and reliant on technology that they won't even bother to draw the background lmao they just stick a good old photo in there.
Seems to be DC lacks editorial leadership - someone to rein in writers who are getting too into themselves. Jim Shooter whether you like him or not, would have put Tom King to task for most of these mistakes.
