And that's why before I was a 100 hr pilot, I took aerobatic training. FWIW with Duane Cole. And when he said I was PIC he meant it. He'd recently lost his medical. But years later when I was flying someone who got us into an involuntary and serious spin, I took over and recovered. Thank you Duane Cole.
"The first time you see that it is a whole lot of ground"..... "When that happens, you can't think your way out of it". Absolutely, positively the best two statements on loss of control I have ever heard! I was one of the lucky ones. I was hit by a gust at 3000ft AGL in a C172R with 4 POB and ended up on a bank angle of as near to 90deg as **mn it. That was an easy fix but no sooner was I back level than I was struck by the horrible thought of exactly WHAT would I have done had I ended up upside down??? Now you can smugly say "roll level"...but see above. In a loaded C172 you are going to be upside down, nose low, rapidly increasing down angle, building speed FAST, probably with screaming passengers and looking at a "whole lot of ground". What just happened? I should level out. What way IS level? What way IS up?. What was maneuvering speed again? Oh, that's right, it's on the ASI dial. Oh, I should probably cut the throttle. Anyone like to guess how much of your 3000ft you just lost??? I signed up to do my aerobatics endorsement the next day!
Thank you for the info Scott! I was fortunate to have spin training early in my flight training in a Cessna 150 and a CAP 10. During most of my ratings my husband and I owned a BE35. I had also participated in several BPPP's. When training for my CFII, I was curious to find out what the V-tail would do in a cross controlled stall. Fortunately, I was blessed to have training with a gentleman, that besides flying B-29's in WWII, was also very knowledgeable about V-tailed Bonanzas. He agreed to go up with me in our plane and we did a cross controlled stall with fully opposite aileron and rudder input. Needless to say, it was eye opening! The loss of altitude during recovery was quite substantial. I asked him if he had ever done a cross controlled stall in a V-tail and he remarked, "Yes, 10 years ago and it did the same damn thing!" I believe this type of procedure produces a ruddervator stall. This is a warning for those pilots transitioning from a Cessna or some other aircraft that you can aggressively slip to a V-tail Bonanza. It is a fabulous plane, but it does not take well to a lot of cross control input. You must very careful particularly when slipping if you have too much altitude on final or you have a cross controlled situation from overshooting the base to final turn. Always best to go around!
Another great video Scott! After 50 years of flying and teaching , it still amazes me that we keep having the same accidents. When I ran a flight college up here in Canada I introduced basic aerobatics for all commercial pilots. My basic philosophy is "The first time you are upside down, you should not have 200 screaming passengers in the back." I have multiple hours in numerous light twins and the Baron 55 has always been my favourite. However it is a handful for the barely competent. The LOC-I does not surprise me in this series of aircraft, twin and single, as they are quite a demanding aircraft to fly well and safe. Also don't get me started on the fuel issue as I fully agree with your comment, that fuel exhaustion is clearly on the pilot. All the best and keep the blue side up.
All these guys crashing are people with money and “no childhood experience” building a foundation for flying by skiing, riding motocross, riding skateboard parks, martial arts, Ext. These are the guys that take too long to get their license, struggling to push through their fears so they can impress their friends because they now have Money but where never good athletes in high school.
@@tropicthndr a lot of what you say has merit, but I think you might be missing a couple of important ingredients for these tragedies: common sense and self discipline. You are so right about lacking childhood experiences.
I did my pilot training in the early 70s when spins were part of the syllabus . I loved spinning the C-150 and Citabria, although the 150 got little tight after the 4th turn.
I had a chief pilot tell me once “ If you’re not flying the plane, you are a passenger”. Understand what’s going on and practice, practice, practice. You’re training will save you’re life.
I'm not a pilot but I enjoy your videos and I hope the flight instructors use your information to help the students live to fly another day....can't wait for part 3....
"Should You have gone around ? " NO , i think as you're here today putting out Excellent Educational Vids , you made the right Choice , Low on fuel , under stress , last thing you needed was to be up in the air , plus you had that long runway . I love this series on these Beechcraft models .
I did my initial training back in the late 90's in Canada and spin training was a mandatory item. When I did my instructor rating, we did fully developed spins partial panel (ironically it was easier).
Another great video. I learned to fly over 30 yrs ago and probably the best training I ever received was a 10-hour aerobatic course in a Decathalon. The instructor (crusty old AF P-51 driver) used to say "Aerobatics teaches competence and confidence". That first time the plane does something significantly against your will (flops over on its side and starts rolling) and you're hanging in the straps while staring at the ground gets your attention. But you learn how to deal with it, properly and quickly. Then you add to that new skill set. Before you know it you're doing hammerheads and completely comfortable being vertical, upside down, or any other combination. That training paid off throughout my flying career. No way I'd let my kid learn to fly without having them go through at least an entry-level spin and aerobatic training class.
Great video again Scott. I’ll always have a sweet spot for the Baron in particular- first twin rating, first instrument rating, and about two thousand hours on them before I moved on to heavy jets (up to and including 747s). I’m now about three years into retirement. If I won lotto and had more money, my choice of a personal plane now would be a Baron.
I have spent decades keeping Bonanzas/Barons flying safe from mechanicals, especially the landing gear. It is a good design but must be fine tuned like a mechanical clock. Expect some maintenance at every annual, I have rarely seen any that didn't require something every year.
I had an old instructor tell me to check the roller bearing on BE58 every time. If it didn’t move, don’t fly it. If you don’t have grease on finger, you didn’t check it.
@@cavok76 No doubt the uplock rollers (main l.g.). Barons usually have a flush grease zerk there that many mechanics are unfamiliar with. On some later midels a downlock mechanism also utilizes that bearing and rolling it over is not possible but some amount of fresh grease should be there.
@@upsidedowndog1256 Not a lot of grease, I guess a bit of grime and main part, able to be rolled with finger. I think it was related to putting gear down.
Most certainly right. And seemingly easy to avoid, but we keep seeing accidents related to completely preventable actions by the pilot. That I think is the real challenge - how do we get pilots to avoid this? Technology will help (fuel totalizers, AoA, stall warning, better gear warning, better cockpit weather, airframe parachutes) and I think short term we have to focus on training and awareness.
I was lucky to have a flight instructor who had me do spin training in a 33 and compared to a training aircraft it is night and day different. Bonanza & Barron’s are slick. Barron’s and Twin Comanche are dangerous because they can flat spin my flight instructor said and if I do flight instruction in them be careful ! Just a note his Son in-law and my Friend died in a Barron giving flight instruction in a Barron in a flat spin a few years later.
Great video! My early flight training was long enough ago that I got to do some stuff like DF steers (Opa Locka,) and PAR approaches in an aero club C172 at Osan AB Korea. Fun stuff. Spin training in a C150 at the Lowry aero club in Denver. It is eye opening how fast the 150 wrapped up into a spin after departure, and the rapid loss of altitude. You just really don't have much time to think about what's happening after the departure from controlled flight. Much better to have been there before in a controlled situation.
Great video Scott. Over confidence in one's own abilities claims more lives than anything else. Have always fostered a ' What if ' attitude to every aspect of what I am hoping to achieve. And as for cutting corners on fuel ,it amazes that some pilots take such unnecessary chances. Thanks for the effort ,don't think the statistics are lying here!🤔
I used to join in the chorus "If it ain't Boeing I ain't going" That saying still gets a laugh occasionally but no longer applies these days as there is a lot of excellent equipment out there competing for your dollar. But this is forever carved in stone for me : If the next spin you see will be your first - "I ain't going" Accident reports invariably call up the Swiss Cheese analogy or the links in the chain analogy - where all the holes have to line up or all the links have to fail. The lack of spin training could be one of those holes or one of those links in the chain. I have never heard a pilot regretting the additional money he spent on his spin training. Add to your toolbox at every opportunity. Read every accident report to help you avoid ever being in one.
Scott thank you for your excellent analysis on flying incidents. My airforce training in the RCAF saved my life in another sport of skydiving. I ended up with a mis packed chute on my first jump and had to go into my reserve. I studied all the malfunctions and what to do if I experienced one so I was ready. I though if one of the other five had got my chute I don’t think they would have been alive today as they had no idea what to do when I showed them the pictures of different malfunctions before we went up after lunch.
Wall stationed at Myrtle Beach Air Force Base and F100 pilot put me into a spin with a 150 off base training and he was also a airline pilot as well I actually enjoyed the spin and ultimately later on got into aerobatics in a pits I must need to know should be part of the curriculum and pilot training but they don't It was it a requirement at that time in the early seventies I guess it was great video
About 3 years ago, I had a wake turbulence encounter near Edwards AFB. I must have flown my 310 to the wake of a passing Cargo plane (there were 130's and C5's in the vicinity). The wake flipped my plane inverted in about 1-2 seconds, essentially making us do a Split-S. Recovery in this instance was to continue the roll and stop when the nearest horizon (in front) came around. At this point we were pointed down hill with a lot of ground in the windscreen. Gently pulling back to level. We had rolled and come out about 270 degrees from our original heading. ATC was unaware of anything. When I asked about any military flights, they said nothing (crickets....). I filed a NASA report that night. So, Not exactly a spin, certainly not a Baron, but very similar (IO-470's, 100-ish gallons). The only saving grace was my initial training was in Gliders where I had a few hours in Acrobatic maneuvers.
Great story. That was an inverted upset, common with wake vortex encounters between light planes and heavy ones. I’ve got several videos on that subject.
Great video! Completely agree with comments about spin training. About the F-4 landing... as I understand it, you could see the runway. With the runway in sight and 12k feet available, no sweat. Great idea to key the mike though the controller was trying his best to help, he didn't have your view out of the cockpit. Thanks but no thanks is always an option.
@@FlyWirescottperdue My dad flew B-47's and once made a very hairy (bingo fuel) landing at an alternate in England after a transatlantic flight on TDY. The fact that he had a weapon aboard made for very stressful landing... made successfully only when his co-pilot spotted the runway. I believe it was a GCA approach and 3rd attempt.
Great video Scott. My 2 uncles who came out of WWII (3rd uncle is buried in the Phillipines) told me to learn a 720 spin. My instructor said it wasn't required. I told him I needed a new instructor. Well he gave in and 30 minutes of spins (Cessna 152) we were both glad to be on the ground. I still practice them, hey they're fun!
We always had to do spin training, but when you decide to do it, ask your instructor to have you enter some spins the real way i.e. have the spin sneak up on you just as it does in the real world. People spin in without even recognising what's going on, and this has been proven by some who have gotten away with it by simply giving up and letting go of the controls, and been lucky enough to recover. One guy was hard to convince that he had been spinning because he had not done his old spin entry as he was trained. Sadly, so many spins start at a height where nothing is going to save the day. If you are aware of the things which indicate the possibility of a spin, then it is really easy to avoid spinning. Simple things like stick position - if it's getting a bit aft and you're not so sure why - you will be approaching the critical angle of attack. Then you see that the ball is off-centre. Nothing difficult about it. Deliberate spinning is heaps of fun, and if it's done by way of really good training, is a life-saver. Get some serious training and enjoy it.
NAS Miramar, 70-74, one of the GCA RADAR was S of 24L about 7K (Q7) I've seen the AC's recover aircraft, when I was standing at the door of the trailer and could not see ACROSS the runway. I believe our mins were 1mi and 1000ft
I used to do PARs back when I was carrying troops on the L10-11 into American military bases in Japan. In fact I’d request them for practice. As you said they can be very accurate with a good controller when the ILS isn’t available or not working. I also recall always being out of fuel when flying to Japan from the west coast so a good PAR in the crappy weather of Japan was nice!
You, sir, were fantastic. I appreciated the info, the delivery and even the dry sense of humor. I'd like to get my PPL in my own plane, so I have been reviewing what to purchase, and Bonanza's are on the list. But as you say, training is very important and finding a teacher such as yourself will be difficult. I know a bit of math and statistics also and understand how good the database needs to be to draw more detailed conclusions.
Excellent brake down. I got some time in age 13-20 back in the 60’s and 70’s but never bought a plane. I just never got the passion so figured I would never be a safe enough pilot. Instead I got into cars and restoration of classics. I’ve got about 50. Still love airplanes, cycles, ships and lots of mechanical devices. Not so much electronics…
Thanks! Just purchased an A36 and appreciate your exceptional insights. Looking forward to a few good months of training and preparation to keep things safe and enjoyable
The encouraging thing is that you can slash your chances of having an accident just by being sensible, flying within your limitations and doing a bit of planning!
Connections.. 1. From 1971-1974, I was a USAF ATC radar technician that maintained the PAR unit at Dyess AFB, Texas. It was built in 1951 or 1952 and used electron tubes. It worked very well and a good controller could fly you right to the runway. The system used three reflector dishes about 30 inches in diameter for alignment - one on either side of the runway threshold and one that was the same distance from the runway as the radar unit and even with the touchdown point. The radar displayed the echoes from the dishes on the screen as well as an aircraft on final. If an aircraft passed between the two threshold reflectors and touched down at the third reflector, it was exactly where it should be. 2. I got my SEL pilot's license in 1975 and during my training, my instructor showed me a spin in a Cessna 150. I didn't want to see another one. The plane's nose down attitude was so steep that I could literally see the spot on the ground where we would have hit had we not recovered. And, the ground was spinning rapidly. Of course, a nose down spin is more recoverable than a flat one. I've been flying radio controlled models since 1963, but only flew full scale from 1974-1977. 3. A few months after I got my SEL ticket, I drove out to the airport and arrived just as a friend of mine was pushing his Commander Lark back into his hangar. He offered to let me take it up solo, but since I'd never flown it before, I had him get in the right seat. We taxied to the nearest intersection and took off. About 200 feet up, the engine lost power. Instinctively, I lowered the nose and established a descent to the remaining runway. That's when he remembered that he had turned the fuel valve off before putting it in the hangar. Somehow we missed It during the startup sequence. He turned it back on and the engine came to life just as I was rounding out. After a few seconds of level flight down the runway, I raised the nose and we climbed away. Lessons learned: 1. Use the checklists. 2. Don't do intersection takeoffs. 3. Have someone familiar with the plane go with you on the first flight.
thank you for the video. If I decide to become current again, my next step will be to undergo spin training. I'd similarly discounted the training, fearing the discomfort and using the whole "i don't fly like that/in those conditions" defense, ignoring the inescapable unpredictability of flight. After viewing this video, I think avoiding that training would border on negligence on my part. A much appreciated message, as is your manner of delivery. My CFI often defaulted to berating and intimidation, instilling feelings of inadequacy and fear rather than encouraging growth and excitement that is necessary for effective learning.
Very good Scott, stall/spin training when possible is insurance you can bank on, I was a little unclear about loss of control in flight, in the pattern? Where would that be? And... I think some glider/sailplane stick and rudder flight training is a good idea. Want that IFR add-on? See what a spinning sailplane is all about first, really sharpens you up. I get it's not for everyone but should be! -C
The Bonanza was marketed as an "upscale" plane, a flying Cadillac. The people who bought them were high-income professionals. These are people who spend their time doing the things that earn the money, not out staying proficient.
My uncle landed a Baron in Tampa Bay in 1975(?). Reason? Tampa Air Traffic control gave him incorrect radar altimeter data (300 feet low) at the start of his approach in very heavy fog. All three on board survived, touching down about a mile short of the runway. He had flown 32 missions in a B-24 over Germany and that was the first time he had ever been scratched in an airplane. He maintained (at touchdown) it was the smoothest landing he had ever made. Until it wasn’t….they were picked up by a lobster boat a few minutes later. I still miss that airplane. Great aircraft.
My grandfather was a professional pilot all his life . In 1940 at the age of 32..he qualified as a civilian flight instructor for army air Corp in the Ryan PT-22 primary trainer. We have letters from pilots thanking him for their lives flying back from the skies over Germany ...shot up ( one burning three turning )...back to basics to get them home.
These pilots write about technical aerodynamic and system details ( inop ) just hanging in the air ..and the nose pointed to the white cliffs of Dover.
Love what you do and provide Scott. Thank you…. And I would love to have the opportunity to for with you one day. Both to meet you as well as to overcome my incompetencies and fear of stall/spins. Wishing you a great weekend, Dan.
Flying is a "skill". Recovering from spins is a "skill". "Skills" require training and practice to perform them well. Your idea is logical. I concur. Thanks.
After spending my life Flying flying school owner ATP 32 years Major Airline and my father owning a 63 V tail Bonanza. Most of the students we taught to fly were very Safety conscious. Then there were the ones who had to get there with the money to afford these aircraft. when encouraged to get more training chose not to.looking at numbers don't tell the story? running out of fuel? goes with the ones knowingly flying into marginal weather.with little recent IFR time? I owned a Piper Turbo Arrow it was equipped with a vacuum HSI and electric HSI and a second Vacuum source .along with a backup battery for radio's recently A 36 leaving our Area on IFR flight had a Vacuum pump failure at night causing him to loose his HSI he called to declare an emergency the controler's tried to help but it ended with 2 dead loss of control Accident. That why My aircraft was so equipped . and there are quite a few other accidents where a single cause can lead to a fatal crash. these are high power aircraft that the pilot needs to have proper training and keep up his proficiency. they believe it won't happen to them.But Aviation like the Sea is unforgiving of any Mistakes.
Scott Love the subject and the way you present information, No one can know it all Minor note 56 were powered by Lycoming TIO-540-E1B4, Travel Airs were BE95. To confuse matters the BE55/95 is both a Travel Air also a Baron. Than there is a Travel Aire..........
Number 1 reason is pilot error. Majority of general aviation pilots never studied their POH. The only way I convinced them to keep POH in aircraft was tell them they had no insurance without it.
Have 2462 hours logged in a V35 bonanza that I own and probably another 3200 hours in a 1978 baron 58 and these aircraft do not crash anymore than any other Manufacturer or type of aircraft in the skies today its more to do with aircraft condition and pilot experience
When you look at the numbers Cessna and Piper both crash at a higher percentage than a Beechcraft. At least that is what my research shows. But I don’t care much for Cessna or Piper.
Quite a few years ago I was talking with flight safety about the difference between the accident rates for the V-tail Bonanza and the conventional tail ones. Remember that the original Bonanza earned the name of the forktail doctor killer. It was expensive (so a lot of doctors bought it) and they were low hours pilots in a high performance aircraft. The V-tail is a rather clean aircraft, especially for the era. When the low hours pilots who may not even have an instrument rating encountered weather they frequently let the aircraft slip through V never exceed and the tail came off. The conventional tail appears to have a much stronger rear fuselage in addition to the empennage and had a much lower incidence of similar mishaps. Low hours pilots in general have a higher than average mishap rate. Complacency is a major factor across the board.
@@FlyWirescottperdue The statistics say there is a difference. Whether it it the conventional tail serving as reinforcement or changes in the fuselage I don’t know, but the difference in the mishap scenario I described was striking.
@@richardbriscoe8563 Yes, there is a difference between the two tails, one is conventional and the other is a V-Tail. What I said is the underlying structure is not significantly different.
Thanks so much for the insight! It’s been a long long time since Tweety Bird spin tests at Edwards and no matter how many times it happens…spins… the visceral reaction for most people is the same and that’s unfortunately catastrophic. Really appreciate your videos! ✅6
Spin and spiral dive training is taught in early stages of flight training first is to identify spin or spiral spin speed is constant where spiral speed builds you don't kick in a lot of rudder in a spiral or you can brake the aeroplane pilots who fly aircraft with single or double taper wings they can tip stall at low speed and higher than 30 degree bank angels but it all comes down to one thing is situation awereness. Good luck in the widow maker happy flying
Thanks for the important vid; Scott. We slightly disagree with Mr. Clemmons re lying statistics in that many times the source of the disinformation is many times within the listener rather than the tne presenter -- many Boards of Directors and professional groups may be all too eager to leap to erroneous conclusions based on inadequate data and thus come to conclusions contrary to developing facts. One needs to assess one's audience properly in all occasions.
Former ME CFI. About the Baron that crashed on tractor trailer in NC last week. Right engine previous problems and landed there 4 months ago. Owner only wanted to put cylinders, not overhaul of the old engine. Looks like on that take off right engine problem again. But.. looks like he reduced power on left engine instead of flying with left engine as it can be done on an empty Baron. And stalled it turning left. Crashed on top of the trailer. That looks like a stalled left turn, not a VMC Roll after right engine failed. I used to teach accelerated stalls. On video looks like an accelerated stall to the left. Accelerated stall power off you drop a lot and fast.. with one wing low and stalled.. As seen there. VMC rolls you roll more than drop until near vertical, then you drop like hell after that. For me, that guy cut the left after right failed and turned left, and stalled it.
Thank your for the video. I fly a Debonair that I've owned for thirty years and a Baron that I've had for a few years but only started flying recently. I know these stats for 182s and 150s, but I was always unsure of what killed people in Bonanzas. As it happens, I have personally known several people who have died in Bonanzas turning base to final low on fuel before switching to fullest main, engine dies, stall, spin, everybody dies, so I was going to assume the winner was gonna be fuel related. Very useful video to me. Thanks again.
In my case...gnashing of tooth. Curse you, sour patch gummies. You're not a kitten doing cute stuff, but you do make me smile...and think. Thanks for doing what you do, Scott. I've said it before, but I'll say it again...I love spin/upset/unusual attitude training. It's not just educational...it's fun. In Canada, starting with the PPL, spin recovery training is mandatory. Of course, spin avoidance is also taught. Your spin video is the view I would see spinning a 172. The visual and physical sensations are extreme and would probably overwhelm the uninitiated and you can't experience that in a sim. Spins are one of those things that you have to try before you know how you will react. 1000 feet goes by in a flash, even with perfect recovery technique and in my mind, nothing is more effective than that, at hammering home the importance of speed control and coordinated flight in the curcuit.
I would have liked to have seen the accidents expressed as 1) total accident percentage of the whole fleet and 2) total fatal accident percentage of the whole fleet and 3) percentage of all accidents that were fatal. You showed 1) in your table summaries, but only discussed 2) and 3) sporadically in discussion. Seeing these three percentages in a table for all aircraft discussed in the series would have created a very valuable tabular reference.
@@FlyWirescottperdue You reported accidents as a percentage of the fleet. There is no documentation for how many of those were fatal? Once you have that number you can calculate the other percentages.
Re: “Fuel” being so high on the list, it has NEVER made sense to me that manufacturers would have us switching tanks on FINAL (Before Landing)! Sure… go ahead and introduce an opportunity for fuel starvation when you’re slow, and close to the ground. 🤦♂️ There will be ZERO fuel burn / balancing to be gained by doing such, and if you’re cutting your fuel allowance so close that the last cup of gas can only be found in one tank, that’s called an “emergency”. Personally? I switch to fullest tank upon initial Descent, so that IF there’s a hiccup I’ve still got altitude… And altitude = time, and time = options. 😉👍🏻
I’m only a sim pilot but truly enjoy your videos and have learned a lot from them. Like your no-BS presentation and also your collective view that pilot’s should never stop training. Keep up the good work! Best wishes from over the pond (🇬🇧). PS: Do you have FlyWire merchandise available? Quite like the blue polo!
For one Bonanzas and Barons are popular with people like doctors and lawyers and other people with a lot of money. People who are A type that can do anything. Spins are scary if you have never done them. When you do them in aircraft certified to spin it can be fun and I don't think the FAA is doing anyone a favor by not requiring spin training. Gold seal CFI Instrument SMEL and Glider.
V tail 35, 30 years ago, Fuel would have been my report: Long cross country Shannon VA to KRHV. multi-able fuel stops, two pilots. Human factors101, checklist not followed. Fuel starvation when lineman marshaling for parking, could have been on final:/.. failed to switch to mains during Descent. Thanks for the video.
