Torque wrench test! (Proof that hand position REALLY matters.) | Auto Expert John Cadogan 

You're welcome.

😂It is unbelievable how some of you believe what this Chanel is saying. A torque wrench once set to a poundage is no different than any solid breaker bar right up to the point that the detent clicks over. Then as soon as it has clicked it becomes nothing for its usage has ended. But the tool has no way of knowing where you hand is pushing. The only difference is the amount you will have to push and the amount of user error that can happen. But once the detent has clicked if you carry on pushing once again the tool is now just as any breaker bar and now also has no limit on how hard you can push. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-mk95F0hHS3U.htmlsi=vdS4hI08-O6Tjshk

@@petethewrist The measurement is of torque on the pivot near the head - you can visually see the wrench pivot a bit there when it clicks. The ratio of that torque to torque on the bolt is (d / d + d2), where d is the distance from the pulling point to the pivot and d2 is from the pivot to the center of the handle. Since d is significantly greater than d2 for any practical case, the error won't be too bad unless you really choke up as shown in this video. If d2 is one inch and the design/calibration is for d = 10 inches, then with a really long cheater bar you'll be low by as much as 9%, and choked up by half you'll be high by 9%. The tool has no way of knowing where your hand is pushing, but the combination of the tool and an actual torque measurement at the bolt does.

@@jmodified just read your first two line just so ridiculous what you think...the pin is there so as as at this point the thing clicks and there is a 3degees of movement so you do not go past the set torque. This set torque is in no way effected by hand position. But it is effected if you do not stop at that three degrees margin of error built into the tool. For after the click the wrench is as any breaker bar and has no limit. If you can't see this I really do feel for you. Await my coming video you will see the light. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-mk95F0hHS3U.htmlsi=vdS4hI08-O6Tjshk

@@petethewrist Either you don't understand how a click-style torque wrench works, you don't understand how torque works, or both. If you think the distance ratios don't matter, what would happen if you extended d2 (distance from center of head to pin) to 100 feet?

@@jmodified quite simply if the wrench was set to lets say a thousand feet pounds you would not need to use much pressure on the bar at a hundred foot but you would have a greater distance to move end of bar over. But this is simple leverage principles and has nothing to do with when the tool will click it will always click at the set feet pounds, until it clicks it is just as any solid breaker bar. I have possed this question in a forum I get payed for and so far out of the hundreds that have answered not one says it matter. The few of you that believe this guy can not have very high IQs at all as as most say on my forum replies, you have a bit of knowledge but you just can't put the whole thing together. Once the torque clicks, if you hold it just past the moment of the click there is at that point no effort going into your nut at all. You have three degrees of turn till the pressure start to turn the nut again. This is when it will over torque. The chaps making the videos on this subject must all be researching from each others video. Because to those of us with degrees in things like this it is a no brainer and we find it hard that the maker of the video in question even mentioned he believed it mattered where you put your hand. And as for him saying there is two different torques. Well he must be so brain dead if he believes this. Anyway this time of year I have so much going on but as soon as I can I shell post a video on my channel and it will be so positive you will see the light. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-mk95F0hHS3U.htmlsi=vdS4hI08-O6Tjshk

It might not help, but you're welcome.

@@AutoExpertJC Maybe John can do a video on the vital role that a cold chisel and a broken brick plays in fine mechanical work?

Some of these people are so set in their beliefs that, no matter how many evidential facts are brought to the table, they will vehemently stick to their fallacious beliefs. They will even go so far as to back up their views with anonymous, misinformed sources.

@@bruiser6479 Harley mechanic, eh!

@@cme2cauAbsolutely. With the Harley logo on the half a brick and everything.

🙂 It can be fun to watch when people try to spring a "gotcha" on a specialist.

As a science guy, I love to argue with other science guys about hypotheses. But good experimental results are where the arguing ends. This was wonderfully conclusive. :)

​@@gedavids84you have not got a clue about science or you would no without any doubt that that tool has not got a clue as to where the hand is placed.

You do not have to be an "actual science guy". You just have to measure!

@@GeorgeTsiros there is no science to it. People simple do not realise the wrench works from the pressure resistance from the bolt and not from the force applies to the handle. The detent will always click at the same back feed from the nut no matter how or where you applied the force on the handle or extension. Most do not have the iq to see this. This short video says it all. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-mk95F0hHS3U.htmlsi=vdS4hI08-O6Tjshk

You get more accuracy with a cheater tube! It’s easier to feel when to stop applying torque before you hit the stop

I have another thought, (also probably mentioned earlier)….Assume the wrench reads true if held at the grip. It’s obvious that the wrench will never click if you choke up all the way to the pivot pin near the head. In this case a very high pull force still makes a very high torque yet no click. The wrench would obviously be over tightening the fastener. As you go closer to the proper grip area the accuracy improves. My prediction is that if you add a cheater bar you will end up with a slightly undertorqued fastener as you make the cheater bar longer and longer the change will become tiny. I’d like to see the test repeated with a1 foot, 2 foot 4 foot and 8 foot cheater bar.

​@@ronburke2422He did already mention it in one of his other videos. There's no need to predict anything, John just proved what will happen.

​@@m0rtifiedpenguin Your obviously one of the group John was talking about at the very end of the video.

The maximum amount you can be under with a long cheater bar is quite small. I just checked my 150 ft-lb wrench, and the ratio of pivot-to-hand-center to pivot-to-head-center is almost exactly 10 (19 and 1.9 inches). So the ratio of torque at the measurement point to torque at the bolt is 10/11. With an infinitely long cheater bar that ratio approaches 1, so you can only be under by at most 9%, and by doubling the handle length you'll only be under by about 4.3%.

250mm nut-fucker: excellent for self-defence. Just saying. (#NotAdvice.)

@@AutoExpertJC They were banned in our auto electrical workshop.

Need to be specific. Left hand or right hand shifter?

@@AutoExpertJCthe full title is “thumb detecting nut fukker”

Confusion as he shows the left and right handed shifters 🤣 That would be a 6 part series.

Nicely put. For me the original video stated facts, without explanation, and was a lot more vitriolic than usual, from the start, not as a result of feedback. That will have raised a few heckles, and prevents rational thought. This caused a bit of thinking for me, as like others, the pivot at the head is not where the torque is being transmitted to the fastener. The ratchet head is connected internally to an arm, which sits on the pawl mechanism, so that transmits the torque - mostly. The internal arm connects with the outer tube only after the pawl release. However, there will be some force at the pivot pin, which will increase as the hand gets closer to it. With a closer hand, that pin will put more torque into the ratchet head, by-passing the pawl mechanism. That bit was not explained in the videos, which I believe is why so many people struggled to accept the facts given.

Also tool shops used to have knowledgeable people that recommended and sold tools. The world has changed, it's woke and doesnt care. You can't expect young people to understand tools if they are leaving school unable to spell.

I saw the metalwork classroom at school once before they removed it. Replaced with sanding bits of MDF and acrylic.

I’m young and take umbridge with you’re comment. I probably understand tools far more bettered than you, I use chizells in woodwork and even sharpenned them. As for spelling, my English teacher said I was well sic and I’ve got humptene gold stars to proove it. Thinking about it maybe because my sharp chizzels were waveing in her face at the time lol pmsl

@@marke8732 :))

That's probably the best explanation of what's going on for those of us who burn toast for a living and just watch these videos for the laughs.

I thought the video was getting too long even with what I already had.

Plus he did it in all one take! Bravo

I'm sorry you are unable to keep up.

*facts. Why are so many people nowadays so keen to use apostrophes when none are required?

@@gyrex Just as some people are shit at golf or pin pong or brain surgery, I’m shit at English and can’t spell, so I blindly trust spellcheck to punctuate and polish my turd. Sorry I am grammar challenged, but I do my best.

@@gyrexbecause…crayon’s

@@dougstubbs9637 thank's for your response. Everyone loves crayon's.

Crayon eaters…love it. Lmao. Good one.

I agree. Gotta ask yourself why they put all that knurling there... Thank you for watching.

The results are unchanged...

Jeez lawyers are nitwits - about anything but law. I deal [as little as possible] with a particular construction-materials company that is owned by a bunch of lawyers. They spend all their time carefully Dotting their Tees and Crossing their I's.

Didn't know it could be called a Torque Wrench. "Hands" is being a bit presumptive, I might have thought.

Can't wait. Or in-lb...

I bought one but have yet to use it. Look out lug nuts, here I come!

Can I assume you mean: "Hands above the Table, Boys"?

@@dylanwebb9584 always good manners to keep one's hands above the table.

I think some of them are attempting to remove their craniums from their buttocks about now.

People make mistakes trying to apply torque, from putting one hand on the handle and one on the shaft, to not having workroom to get a grip on the handle, to being tired and in a hurry to finish the job.

why? The point was made clearly.

It would show the exact reverse. This is where a little imaginative thinking comes into play.

It won't make a difference, the length of the handle is what causes the change in applied force, not the distance from the ratchet head to the socket. He actually did show it using a small extension, the 1/2 to 3/8 adapter is exactly that. It would only change if the extension used was not a solid bar, but something with another pivot point.

@@cmoneyuser I think @TonyWhite22351 means an extension pipe added to the length of the handle end, not a socket extension added between the socket and ratchet head👍

@@simonilett998 I thought the same initially, but that's already been shown. John moves his hand closer & the amount of applied torque increases, so if he was to move his hand further away / add an extension bar, it would apply less torque. I assumed the OP understood this & was thinking deeper, perhaps not.

If you are working on motorcycles where everything is aluminium or other alloys, you will learn painful and expensive lessons of over tightening…

The increase in itself is not necessarily the biggest issue, but the difference can be. Eg: if you're torquing head bolts and you hold your hand in several different places on the wrench as you go through the 14 or so head bolts you'll have a different torque on each one, which 'can' cause issues. Not a guarantee, but a possibility.

There are a couple of reasons why you get a 5% - 10% increase when you have your hand halfway down the shaft, not a factor of 2 difference. The first is JC doesn't have the lever lengths quite right. The outer tube lever is the distance from the pin pivot by the head, to your hand. The other lever in action is from the 1/2" drive center to the detent mechanism. The detent mechanism is not where your hand is but it is a lot closer to the pin pivot. Thus what is happening is you are shifting the proportion of force applied from all being applied through the detent mechanism when your hand is on the handle, to some of the force being applied through the pin pivot. But because inner lever length is a lot shorter than the outer lever length, you don't see a massive effect until your hand gets to the head side of the detent mechanism. The second reason JC doesn't mention: When your hand is acting on the handle, the outer tube acts like a cantilevered beam. This applies basically no additional compression to the detent stack, in fact it tends to unload the detent stack when you apply force with your hand to the handle. However when your hand moves towards the center of the outer tube, the outer tube is now acting as a simply supported beam. This loads additional compression into the detent stack and increases the force required to trip the mechanism.

@@tj5020 I actually theorised about your second point being a possibility in this comment section and jc shut me down :/ I think your first point has merit too.

@@Rollin8.0 yeah, well JC doesn't know everything. A simple free body diagram shows the bending state changes as you move where the force is applied to the outer tube

"The Torque is strong with this one."

The 1/2 to 3/8 adapter makes no difference to the applied torque.

​@@AutoExpertJCTrue. You can stack up ten adapters and the torque will not change .. if they all stay collinear and at 90 degrees to the wrench. In practice, this is hardly the case even with one adapter

No - disagree. They were stupid. Anti-stupid is a learned condition. We're too busy giving all the kids trophies now. It doesn't help.

@@AutoExpertJC I teach teenage kids (Maths and Science), some of them do seem to be wilfully stupid at times, but often, with the best will in the world, their brain gets stuck on some detail and until they can get past that eg by a demo rather than talking, they can't let go of their misconception and will defend it. That's why your board demos with simplified diagrams eg of towing physics work well. And why this video will have changed some those minds (whether they admit it or not).

It's surprising how many people think that! If you choose to continue yanking on it after the click, it'll happily continue to continue to apply your efforts to the fastener.

Physics doesn't care about the status of your belief or your thoughts. Also, forces are only linear; never rotational. Try to keep up.

Until the battery goes flat after sitting in your tool box for 6 years...

@@clasdauskas Yeah...I have one of those transducers for various reasons and I take the batteries out and leave them in the pouch when not in use. They never turn off, the off button only turns off the LCD display but everything is still running in the background. Ditto digital calipers/micrometers...little bastards keep eating batteries.

…great opportunity for the venerable Bluetti AC180, so you can torque transduce all day long…and a portion of the evening.

@@MrPoopnoddy Me too, and still got caught a couple of days ago - put my battery in the calipers and it was flat

@@clasdauskas- I put the battery blocking plastic tab back in after using it to disconnect the battery.

He has a very intelligent toque wrench it can tell where his hand is on the outside tube. Lol. I just can't believe how many people have not got a clue about leverage principles and science.

The 10mm socket requires one to understand advanced physics, since black holes, singularities, and the mass of a Kardashian's derriere are involved.

Seen them... it was fun and I learned something.❤

Yes he explained that it would in Part 2. If you want to add an extension bar onto your torque wrench, then you need to use a very specific type of wrench! Namely a Warren & Brown Deflecting Beam Torque Wrench, this has NO pivot in the mechanism and therefor is unaffected by where a hand or activation length is applied. See the type here: www.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fi.ytimg.com%2Fvi%2FsfPJlD3QqW8%2Fmaxresdefault.jpg&tbnid=w1qh7LLnfrqv6M&vet=12ahUKEwimw9jL_aGAAxVCkWMGHa9uDhkQMygBegUIARDYAQ..i&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DsfPJlD3QqW8&docid=0R_PbyWw8PLKMM&w=1280&h=720&itg=1&q=split%20beam%20torque%20wrench%20designs&ved=2ahUKEwimw9jL_aGAAxVCkWMGHa9uDhkQMygBegUIARDYAQ

Probably should have clarified extension to the handle or extension to the head.

@@tonynicholson3328 The head, I don't know any reason why anyone would add an extension to the handle because the wrench would never handle that much torque.

Stabilising will not change anything. If you add an extension to the handle to make hitting big numbers easier, yes that changes everything, you will be under the specified torque. If you mean an extension between torque wrench and socket, like when reaching in to get to spark plugs, then that's fine, because that extension is on the same axis as the fastener and the head of the wrench.

@@onecookieboy Completely agree, however having no reason to extend the handle doesn't mean some genius wouldn't.

I think it's possible to have negative intelligence now...

Hey Ray, thank you very much. When I was training as an engineer I worked for a year in a NATA registered lab - destructive testing, etc. It was a total blast, and I learned a lot. Broke heaps of crap, too...

@@AutoExpertJC ha ha destructive would have been heaps of fun mine was looking after torque gear and gauges yes you learn heaps when you see the other side of how things work and the importance of testing

Agreed. Experimental control, process control, calibration, putting your nuts on the line with every signature... Crashlab would be even more fun.

Well, it's a fancy spanner, but a very calibrated one at that, and not supposed to be used to loosen fasteners either. But somewhere out there a jobbo has loosened nuts with his torque wrench....

@@AutoExpertJC now you're talking that would be great fun

What? You mean they're supposed to read the f'ing instructions/manual now?

But some of you can't see be it black or white or coloured. You just can't see that leverage has nothing to do with how the tool works. Short but to the point video. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-mk95F0hHS3U.htmlsi=vdS4hI08-O6Tjshk

The beam type wrength is length dependent as it is the bend in the bar that shows to pressure applied. But any other torque wrench can be held anywhere along its length and the click will always put the set torque on the nut. Watch this very short video for total proof. All thes channels have got it wrong both factualy and mathematical they are trying to say two and two make 5. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-mk95F0hHS3U.htmlsi=vdS4hI08-O6Tjshk

@@petethewrist sorry, your dog won't hunt here. Just because you can post a poor video that only shows why "clicking twice" (or three, or four times) is a bad idea, or serve as proof of anything other than that people will see what they want to try and not have to change their minds (like, for example, that the wire *does* move against the line), doesn't change the underlying physics of the thing or the specific numeric and visibly incontrovertible proof this particular video showed.

And .. he did actually say something like that in one of the previous videos ie better to be a bit over than under - with a disclaimer that this was not license to go completely nuts.

That shorter wrench made a huge difference to over torquing from 50 when held correctly to 70 when held in the middle.

Aaaand there he is

@@Cotterpin_Doozer Yes, interesting But notice he never attempted to explain why that might be the case

@@nickmaguire4914 👋

The handle IS rigid on the torque wrench he is using, the hand position matters not because of any possible flex in the handle but because of the two lever ratios, if the pivot point is at the head then it wouldn't matter where your hand is but it's actually at the pin about an inch down. If you were to press down an inch from the head at that pivot point it wouldn't click no matter how hard you pushed despite the bolt experiencing force way beyond the setting. Kinda hard to explain without bringing out the whiteboard lol

@@archygrey9093 Nothing is truly rigid...any load, applied to any material causes deflection. Different materials have different resistance to deflection, but even a feather on a W24 beam imparts some deflection, albeit unmeasureable in that example. The click is not necessary to apply the correct torque; it simply confirms it if the wrench is calibrated. What the click is confirming is that the tool has achieved the calibrated deflection imparted by the loads to achieve the correct torque. You are correct that the right torque applied at the pin would cause no click, but that's because the rest of the handle must deflect to actuate the clicker.