JJ! Thanks buddy! It was pretty interesting to see how it worked with the different groups, and the little differences that come with them. Cheers bro!
I love this series about Tercios ! Amazing how Cathay fared well! But really only 1 tercio is really used, the second providing only support, so maybe moving it forward and then using its infantry to flank attackers would help
Yeah I was really pleasantly surprised with Cathay's performance! Glad you've been enjoying this bud! And yeah I definitely did not use the second Tercio to it's full potential, I frequently forgot to even move some units haha! In the hands of a more attentive General it could pull off some amazing stuff
Honestly not surprised that kislev got that result. Faction wise they are not meant to box up and hunker down. They cav are supposed to go on offense an disrupt the approach while thier midrange shooting wins the battle. I.e. embrace the bear not the box.
Oh man some Bears would have been killer in this. Kislev's units seemed surprisingly expensive though as I was trying to keep the Battle Funds at about 21,000 gold but I couldn't even fit Tzar Guard in there. A tricked out army in campaign would be sick though
Since the AI seems to focus on the first Tercio, you could probably get away with a heavier emphasis on range/cavalry on the second one. Intercepting the Chaos Knights before they could harass your backline would have prevented a lot of casualties. In any case, great video, and I'll be definitely testing it on campaign!
Yeah going forward I think I'll definitely be subbing in some Cavalry for interception/harassment duties. I was surprised with how they AI acted with the second Tercio, it is cool though that half an army like this can pretty much beat their entire army though, more or less. More science is needed! Haha cheers brother glad you enjoyed this, let me know what you find out!
I didn't think about it initially, only realizing part way through the battle but yeah it seems really effective when they're set up in a formation like this! I was really impressed with how they did
Hey there I love how your videos are evolving! I really appreciate your unit icons at the start. It creates a universal foundation that saves a lot of time as you jump from different factions which is great for everyone. A picture speaks a thousand words and the saved mental time allows people to better follow what you are saying even if they are not already familiar with a particular faction. Thank you for your videos and looking forward to more.
Thank you so much bro! I do try my best to take in feedback and use that to improve, this has been a really fun learning experience for me and I'm really happy to be able to improve my editing skills. I'm glad you've been able to see that progress showing in my vids :) Cheers brother and thanks again!
I love the idea of incorporating historical tactics into TW Warhammer! After watching your videos I've started including tercios in my dwarf campaign. One thing I found that started to bug me was that the ai often focuses on the closest formation. This leaves melee infantry in the 2nd tercio unengaged for a good portion of the battle, much like in your testing. At first I found myself trying to rigidly hold the formation, but as I fought more battles I seemed to get better results by dissolving the 2nd tercio completely once the AI committed its flanking units. This system is excellent for getting the AI stuck in and setting up awesome flanks. Once I started splitting up the unengaged tercio and going for flank shots with the gunners and rear charges with the infantry my battles were ending sooner with fewer friendly losses. Great stuff, I hope you make a lot more videos!
Yeah I was pretty surprised too that the secondary Tercio didn't really face heavy resistance. But in my research on them I found that they weren't really supposed to stay rigidly in place as the battle went on, elements were allowed to act independently. Your tactic of breaking it up and using them to flank would probably be a legit way they acted back in the day. Cheers brother I'm glad you've enjoyed this and that its helped you out! I definitely plan on making more!
@@MalleusGaming57 I don't know if I just missed something, but did you explain why the second tercio was set back from the first? I assume if they were the same distance from the enemy deployment zone the AI would be likely to split its forces more evenly.
@@klarthkoken1925 Haha good catch I didn’t explain why, probably should have 😅 historically multiple Tercios would fight together basically in a Checkerboard pattern, with one offset from the other. It would have made more sense if I had 3 of them but I do have an idea for that for the future.
Not surprising that Cathay did so well. A tactic that favours closed ranks and offensive ranged units being backed up by defensive melee units works well with the faction that favours closed ranks and offensive ranged units being backed up by defensive melee units.
I think you should give the enemy the common weakness for all formations: Artillery that outranges your own formation. (1-2 Hellcannons in this case) If I play formations in a campaign it's all fun and games until the enemy army just won't engage me and stays on the defensive. That's why I always have some kind of "reactive" unit in formations, that isn't a vital part of the whole box tactically, but can take out annoyances if there are any. Examples for this unit are:gyrocopters, empire knights, those flying dragon horses for Cathay etc. Also you could do this video with Vampire Coast and Ogre Kingdoms
Haha I don't know why but I always forget Hellcannons are like a thing, at least until I get reminded with some in campaign then the rage begins. But yeah definitely swapping out some units for some cavalry or fliers would be a good move with this. A Hellcannon especially would devastate this formation. Good call with Vampire Coast and Ogres! I also forgot about them haha
This was a great show especially for Cathay ^^ I would probably replace the Backrow with Ironhail Gunners instead though to really weigh in on the cheeky Cav that tries to break through the Dragonguard as I found that 3-4 Crane Gunners are already the "Sweet Spot" for Cathayan armies to snipe down high value targets quickly. For the Kislev Army, yeah Ice Guard aren't really meant to hold the line. They're archers that "can defend themselves" but aren't line Holders. Tzar Guard would've been the preferred Choice or now with the new Patch maybe the Kislevite Warriors with their high amount of models. In Case of the Dwarves, Giant Slayers to Protect the Sides of the Tercio to better deal with the Cav and perhaps Irondrake Flamers in the Backline of those? Then again, those aren't exactly Gun units, but might be a nice addition ^^ Skaven Army seemed fine to me though, can't really think of much else to improve them ^^
Hey Malleus, loving your mini-series on the Tercio in Total Warhammer. Ever since I got the first two games a few years ago, I've been interested in trying to adapt pike and shot tactics to it but wasn't sure how best to go about it. I think your first video on the tercio is one of the only ones I've seen on that particular topic and I've enjoyed this whole mini-series. Doing some testing of my own I pretty much replicated your result of Kislev having trouble being effective with the formation. Kislev's artillery seems like it may be a limiting factor, where it's powerful per shot, but the reduced weight of fire from only having one gun limits overall affect. Although it steps away from the tercio theme, I think what might work better for them is a modified Napoleanic-era style hollow square since Streltsi are almost like having muskets with bayonets. I did a test using it as a single large formation and it seemed like it maybe worked a little better with the front-most units still getting mauled, but not quite as bad overall. It's even a bit cheaper! (Disclaimers: Used Ultra unit size compared to the smaller size you used, I used a Ice Maiden of Tempest lore for the Hailstorm and Biting Wind, and had Exiles of Khorne as the enemy faction since I don't have the Chaos Warrior DLCs.) Links to my screenshots of the formation and results: steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2898160994 steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2898160973
Bro this is so cool! I'm kinda glad to see it wasn't just me having trouble with Kislev in this case haha! That's super interesting to see thank you so much for taking the time to try this out and show your own results. I'm wondering if a stronger focus on Streltsi may just be the way to go? Cheers bud this was awesome to see and thank you so much I'm really glad you've enjoyed the series!
Absolutely I’m pretty sure when recording this I pretty much forgot about the spells until the end there haha but yeah slowing down the enemy in front of these blocks with summons alone would be devastating
I tried this with my favorite faction the Dark Elves and Wood Eves and the results differ, with the W.E the formation with Glade Guards, Eternal Guard, and some Treekin did really well because W.E archers are phenomenal but same can't be say the same with D.E Dreadspears, Shades, and Cold Ones Knight didn't do as well as W.E from what I've seen it all because of the Shades and Dark Shard are crossbows while Glade Guard, Deepwood Rangers, and Waywarchers are archer and have higher fire rate. So the conclusion is W.E with this formation is really but the D.E you'll struggle
I never thought to use Elves with this that's super interesting! I guess the thing with the DE is that their Crossbows have a slightly lower range yeah? They're probably better on the offence and with this being an inherently defensive formation it may not gel too well with them. That's awesome to hear about the WE though! I love Eternal Guard they just look so cool and WE Bowmen are insane
Awesome! That's great to hear! Do you use the Archers on the corners like in this? When they have to pull back to within the square they're so much more useful than the Handgunners in the same situation haha cheers bro!
@@MalleusGaming57 Old video I know, but maybe you could use Lothern Sea Guard for the archers in the front, in the event they get caught or need to cover a flank with some spears?
Khazukan Kazakit Ha! Cheers bro! I love me some Dwarf campaigns I hope this'll help you out! I'm sure it'll be super useful if you get attacked by Cavalry heavy Greenskins out in the Badlands
Thanks so much bro! I really appreciate that! Hopefully someday eh? Man it was such a treat seeing the Dwarfs in action with this, it works so well for them!
It could be worth experimenting more with kislev. Maybe experiment with other powder units? Also iceguard were very nice, but they could have spended much more ammo I think, and maybe this would work better with a unit with more melee defence, since its your powder units that will do the damage
Yeah definitely would be interesting to test them out more, I was honestly considering an almost full army of Streltsi going in. I thought Glaive Ice Guard would be Kislev's most defensive unit but I think they got let down by their lack of armour. Perhaps more Tzar Guard, Bears and Streltsi instead
@@MalleusGaming57 I think Full Streltsi for infantry is the way. So much more firepower, decent in melee, and none of the other infantry impresses me much.
@@shorewall yeah you’re totally right bro, I never used them too much in campaign so I forget that they’re actually somewhat decent in combat. They’re definitely gonna be popping up in future vids
I think it would be worth swapping 1 or 2 of the crane gunners per terico for iron hail gunners. They have an absymal range so you clearly dont want to do a full commit to them, but they output quite a lot more damage than the crane gunners and will mulch anything they get flanking shots into with their 3 (per fire animation) high ap, moderate damage shots. Really enjoying these videos.
Oh man I was looking at the Iron Hails when I was setting this up, totally agree with you! Probably set them up on the rear central corners so they can walk up and get some epic flanking shots once the lines are engaged. They'll be so brutal I love it! Thanks for the suggestion bro and I'm really glad you've been liking these!
Yeah after the first video I did a Cathay campaign where the tercio was done for a convoy battle vs greenskins where the U was placed againsta moutainside. Two groups of iron hail gunners were key to the defense as they can rapidly redeploy to provide deadly crossfires
I feel like Kislev might have benefitted with the ice Witch being in the first tercio to cast ice sheet earlier and death frost on big guys. Plus for actual campaign, as opposed to your testing which has cost limitations, replacing some infantry for the 2nd tercio with war bear riders could help a lot with cavalry and monsters
Absolutely, I would have loved some War Bears and Tzar Guard, and yeah I wasn't really thinking too hard on where the characters went, probably would have had better results. I know when I played Kislev with Katarin I was impressed with the Ice Guard's staying power, but that was likely due to all the buffs she provides
I have to say i am very impressed with your tercio! Good job. But wouldnt Plague Monks be better lords for Skaven because they can summon additional units?
Thanks so much bro! And yeah probably would have been much better! I'm not the most familiar with Skaven, particularly the ins and outs of their heroes. These were really meant to just serve as examples though and can definitely be adjusted as anyone sees fit. I do love the idea of summoning units to block them and get more shots off though! Yes-yes!
Yeah I misjudged, I had played with Ice Guard in a Kislev campaign with Katarin and they did well amazingly with her buffs, I guess without them they're a lot squishier haha Tzar Guard definitely the way to go!
Ohh yeah Slayers for the back line would be so good! Don't have to worry about them getting shot up since the enemy's attention is at the front. I definitely like cannons for anti--artillery I feel like I haven't had much success with them out side of that role though. I should play around with them more though because I just love cannons haha
For Kislev, I've had much more success using Armored Kossars mixed with Tsar Guard as a frontline. Tsar Guard guard the most needed parts while the Armored Kossars have the flanks. Have Ice Guard act as archers, then when the battle really gets started they can act as good secondary flankers. Of course cavalry is pretty much necessary.
Yeah I definitely overestimated the Ice Guard, I took them because of their Charge Resistance to Large so Cavalry can't just go through them but yeah the much beefier Tzar Guard should do the trick. Cheers bro thanks for the advice!
Given how study iron breakers are, you might able to remove the hammers and add some gyrocopters. Same with Cathy if only because I don’t know how much the crossbows add. Best of luck with you experimenting!
@@peterrautenbach1298 Oohhhh Gyrocopters would be amazing, they’d definitely help compensate for the lack of maneuverability. And I really wasn’t sure what to add in with Cathay, I was kinda thinking the Statues or some Rocket Balloons. But I figured it’d be best for this vid to have the armies somewhat consistent with each other
@@MalleusGaming57 i totally get it and appreciate the consistency with the builds. It’ll definitely be fun to see how each race and best use this formation given their unique strengths and weaknesses
having warpflamers instead of the jezzals wound have doen much more work. The addiditonal anti infantry damage would have been the deciding factor to help the frontline hold the line.
Cheers bud! It can be pretty vulnerable to artillery, you’re gonna need something to counter like cavalry or using your own artillery to destroy theirs
That's interesting about the first battle, that your losses from enemy kills were only 114, therefore 59 losses were from friendly fire. Maybe organ guns would fair better.
Omg... I didn’t even realize that! Haha thanks so much for catching that bro! Yeah I took Flame Cannons because I figured they could lob their shots over the front lines, but Organ Guns may be the way to go for sure! Cheers bud!
@@MalleusGaming57 You're not wrong about flame cannons shooting over the lines, actually the rear formation having flame cannon might work ok if you micro a little to avoid friendly fire, basically tell them to attack ground fire and only aim at thicker blobs not right next to dwarf lines. The front being organ would work well especially against chosen, it will take out several columns at once. Most of my dawi campaign deaths are friendly fire so I'm used to it haha
Haha yeah I kept one a bit further back because of how historically they were offset. Looking back at it now though keeping them in line would have probably been better. Cheers Scout!
I covered Empire pretty much in my previous 2 Tercio vids, I highly recommend checking them out! And I'll be doing a vid with the Vampirates trying out a Triple Tercio build soon 😁
@@MalleusGaming57 I'm thinking necrofix Colossus as mobile artillery. Zombie handgunner, zombie pole arms, gunnery wright, rotting Promethians on the flanks, vampire lord with polearm with only healing spell and raise dead, to help big down enemy movement.
I really like the Deck Gunners, the range really helps. Plus zombies don't rout. Necrofex are insane, especially since their artillery piece is raised, so it can have easier shots once the melee starts.
@@MalleusGaming57 depends on the game/faction. some have really good gun infantry and/or no gun cav. it also has the weakness that the formation is more vulnerable to missiles since gun cav units are smaller so you need artillery to prioritize them first but yeah, no need to worry about your guns getting charged since they run away as soon as the infantry engage. then flank and shoot the enemy from behind. pike and shot + hammer and anvil I've also experimented with using bows/crossbows in addition to guns. have a very strong bow, gun, and gun cav formation in shogun 2. it could be viable in other games too
I really feel like the secondary tercios need to be smaller, there are at least 3 units in them that contribute nothing to the fight when they could. I would move 2 mele inf and 1 ranged to the main tercio somwhere an it got better results when i tested it with cathay (aprox 100 less losses against a random chaos army)
Kislev would have fared better with tsar guard in place of ice guard I feel. Ice Guard are a great hybrid unit for what they do but they are just too squishy to be on the front line.
I had a lot of success using a stack of Ice Guard, but that was with Katarin, her buffs and superior spells probably coloured how I look at them. They're still great units but yeah not as unyielding as my prior experience led me to believe haha! Cheers bud, some Tzar Guard should work wonderfully
i m late to the party but it feels like the 2nd tercio doesnt need the n shape facing the flank of the first tercio and those Celestial Dragon unit could have renforced each outer side of the Tercio for cavalery countournement wich caught your Cranegunners at 17:30
Cheers bro! If I did this again, and had the experience I have now with it, I'd definitely change up the positioning, this was like my first go at it haha
Could you test it agianst some other factions other then Chaos? Since I've been recently playing Vampire Coast agianst some High Elfs and noticed that the High Elves are aiming for my guns instead of the protective infantry.
It's honestly a formation that's best against melee rush factions, while it's usable against other ranged factions like High Elves you'd have to switch up tactics for sure. I'd recommend trying to go for their ranged units quickly, any artillery should be able to out range their archers. With Vamp Coast something like Mournguls I would think would be good to take out their archers or even Scurvy Dogs since they're so fast
I think the positioning of the tercios was really unfavourable to them. If they were closer with the one on the edge slightly ahead I think they would have supported each other a lot more effectivelly. Plus I do think that it is a formation that demands micro if you truly want to use its potential. leaving them stagnant makes it lose its advantage regarding how flexible it is to relocate firing lines and support areas under heavier attack. It was a nice test but I think the formation underperformed due to tactics used.
Oh yeah I definitely could have positioned them better, I've got more experience with them now so yeah hopefully I can use them more effectively in the future haha this was pretty much a "hm, wonder if this'll work"
I think part of the reason Cathay came out so well in this fight is because of the armour penetration capabilities of the Crane Gunners. Chaos Knights and Chosen are high armour enemies, so the lower AP Kislevites would probably have done better against more numerous enemies with lower armour. The Crane Gunners absolutely pack a punch, but they don't shoot enough to really actively damage a bigger unit in my opinion.
Hmmm true say! I never checked how much AP damage the Crane Gunners actually do, I’ll have to look into their stats some more. I kinda wish Cathay had just a regular rifles unit too, maybe down the road with DLC
Flame storm would wreck this formation. Also because how Ridgid the formation is you can overwhelm the missle units one by one. Ok as a campaign tactic, though I wouldn't cause you take too many losses, but definitely not a good multiplayer formation
My videos aren't meant for multiplayer they're all campaign based, it's for the fun of learning about real life military formations and testing them in game.
@@MalleusGaming57 Yeah, SP and MP are completely different animals, that must be approached in different ways. And then there are the role players like us, who try something different. :D
This really showcases how horribly the battle AI is programmed. The chaos sorcerer spamming spirit leech on infantry units instead of characters, cavalry opting to charge braced halberds instead of the exposed flank of gun units right next to them, the chaos dragon charging an infantry unit instead of the catapult right behind it. Terrible priority choosing by the AI.
@@MD-yd8lh ohhhh I remember playing that years ago! M2 is so good for mods, my favourite is the Third Age and its submods, love me some Lord of the Rings
