Hey guys thanks so much for the amazing response to this! I really appreciate all the feedback and kind words from you. I'll try and respond to as many comments as I can! Cheers y'all!
Cool video and an awesome explanation! I was thinking, what if you move one of the rear halberd units forward, right behind your front line. That way it can reinforce damaged parts of your lines. The downside is that you'll only have on unit guarding the rear, however in practice I find that the AI never really takes the effort to go all the way around my lines to hit me from behind.
Or you could even use the last halberd unit to reinforce your other lines in case the enemy doesn't flank you at all, leaving you with a u-shaped formation instead of a square
And in the Early game you can use the same tactic by using Crossbows first then transitioning over to Handgunners, the same thing with the Infantry start with Spearmen and Swordsmen then transition to Halberdiers.
@@carlosschwambach9213 it definitely helped to inspire me to look into it more my dude! There were a couple of other comments as well about these kinds of historical formations so I figured it’d be cool to look further into. Thanks again bro!
@@MalleusGaming57 only in Warhammer Fantasy can you have an elven arch-mage flying into battle on a dragon, alongside a squadron of dwarven gyrocopters, and a lance of knights riding pegasi and gryphons, against an evil wizard on a two-headed mutant dragon, a cloud of giant vampire bats, and a bunch of goblin doomdivers frantically flapping their wood-and-cloth wings. Oh, and down below the aztec gator-men are duking it out with the steampunk plague rats on behalf of their giant toad overlords, while pike-and-shotte formations frantically duke it out with heavy metal vikings and four-colour demon hordes, and the Ents aggressive cousins take on the green-painted supporters of... WAAAGH? Not a club I recognise, but they clearly have loyal fans!
gets even weirder in Age of Sigmar catridge ammo is common but you can see crossbows still common revolvers arent as common despite being ordinary weapons
End Times/AdditionofSpacemarines is nuHammer, not Warhammer. Storm of Chaos is the true timeline. They threw Rick Priestly out of his own setting after 6th; brought in new writers to retcon the fuck out of the lore, hand the world to Chaos on a platter, and obliterate it to focus on 40K. Don't know why people have to start yapping about it all the time. No Warhammer Fantasy fan cares.
As a spaniard i feel prod you did the research and practical applications in this game i love so much. Side note: There is a great mod called Souther Realms that makes this PlayStatile much better. Estalia has acces to élite albadiers (downgruded Black guard of Nagafoth) that can make the frontline (In the Real tercio front lane Was made of experinced fighters and backlane by fresh recruits so it makes complete historical sense) There are some cool élite hangunners and other units to add To finish off i would include mortars instead of canons because the formation is calling for it
I'm not a Spaniard but I am of Latin descent so I got that Spanish pride with you hermano! I'll have to look for that mod, I found a Southern Realms mod but it didn't have much to it, Estalia just had some Pikemen, yours sounds really good! And good call on the Mortars, I figured the Cannons would add some range but once the lines meet its pretty much useless. Gracias mi amigo!
in real life of course the spanish would have used several tercio formations in a single battle. But this is hard to apply i feel in warhammer total war as there is a limit to how many units you can bring. I do however wonder how well this concept would work with several smaller squares. Might get to intensive on the micro but still could be cool
Yeah I could see doing that with a double stack but I always have trouble controlling so many units. I’m definitely gonna look into trying this out with 2 smaller squares, I’d imagine they’d be more fragile but you’ll be able to get more firepower on your opponent. It’ll be cool to test out.
same with field artillery etc though it took till the war of the spanish sucession and latter before that infrastructure to supply and maintain such cannons would become common place.
Indeed, IRL a Tercio formation would probably count as a single "unit" where in Total War that's not possible due to the size and the mixed weaponry used.
This is actually a variant of the deep checkerboard formation : the basic checkerboard has your units spaced on two lines. The deep one has your units spaced on 3 or 4 lines, and you have melee units on the sides and middle of the formation so they porotect the side and can reinforce where needed. Being spaced means your units can fire everywhere, and being deep enough means the enemy can't easily run you down.
Awesome! I didn't know it had a specific term for it thanks bud! I've used a deep checkerboard with Sisters of Avelorn and Ice Guard, I'll have to try one out with gun powder units, sounds like it'd be pretty fun!
@@dragon12234 it’s funny you say that, the triple acies is something I wanna look into sometime with this series! No idea how it’d work out but it’ll be fun to find out regardless
This was very nice. You should go deeper with historical formations. French line infantry formation from the 1800's, Polish Hussar cavalcade... Take a look at pre-Tercio Spanish formations (Coronelías) or the Burgundian ordennances.
Micro intensive. I feel the pain, I use some sort of danish pike & shot formation since checkerboard and chevron weren't really satisfying and flexible enough solutions for me. If you're interested I can send you something about it, have never bothered with posting it anywhere so far.
Haha heavy micro makes me dread the idea of an All Cavalry Army, as much I also love the idea of it. That'd be awesome to see dude! I've had a few people ask me about doing something with Danish Pike & Shot formations that'd be cool to see
JJ! Thank you so much bro! Let me know how it goes, I’ve got some ideas and have had a lot of suggestions for improvements on it so can’t wait to try those out
It is intriguing that you cover this formation. I was experimenting on it myself and it isn't easy to pull off with what you listed near the end. My armies usually follow a composition that of a checkerboard formation or somewhat like an arrowhead with reserves of fast units or just more infantry. In context to Warhammer 3 especially Immortal Empires there are alot of Large Unit targets in the game now and certain factions like Daemons or Ogres are not in short supply thus keeping me to utilize Spearman units as specialists either waiting to engage and focuse down the large entities or to reinforce the line when it breaks. Playing on a competitive Total War Discord also makes me worry about bringing something I couldn't survive without like a Steam tank. In terms of the Empire I'll usually favor midrange spending units with performance to back it up. As long as you have a decent front line, good missile troops, and some empire knights to quickly mobilize is essential. In terms of this strategy I'd test it out against Khorne, Tzeentch, and Ogre Kingdoms to try and perfect a general concept to facing the horrors of the Old World and beyond. It'll be hard of course but these factions cover the general criteria that would put your army in peril. Ironically you can do this more effectively with Skavan since losses mean almost nothing and anybody that breaks their first time will come back pretty much at a similar strength as they started at least for Skaven.
Yeah it definitely has its Pros and Cons, part of what I like so much with this series I'm doing is figuring out ways to adapt these tactics to all the insanity that Warhammer has haha! I really wish Empire had a heavier infantry unit for the frontlines, Greatswords don't quite cut it. I'll definitely try it out against more of the other races, though I feel like Tzeentch is gonna thrash it, though the Spearmen you mentioned may be slightly better against them thanks to their shields. Thanks so much for the advice my friend!
I wish there was a way to automate complex maneuvers like these. This formation would be most effective with several squares in a staggered line formation, the way the Swiss did it. With one square forward, a second one to its right and slightly behind, and a third as a reserve to maneuver. The artillery would hang back. Of course, the amount of units needed to make this work wouldn't fit a stack. And it would be mental to try and micro it.
Yeah man whenever I'm controlling 2 stacks at once its way too much for me, and thats just with regular battle lines! That'd be so cool though if you could like Parent one formation to another or something so it'd like follow it and keep its shape. I'm really curious as to how this would work out if it were split into 2 smaller Tercios, so 4 Halberds and 4 Gunners on the corners each. I'll have to try that out!
@@hawkticus_history_corner lmao wow I can’t believe that completely slipped my mind! Yes! Good call my dude! Having them in 2 locked control groups and then you can move them together with Alt dragging. Hm, 2 smaller Tercios is sounding better and better
I tend to use similar formations the only things I would note is that is the formation does not have to be symmetrical. If you pull one of the 2 rear halberd units of the rear and either put it on the front or keep it in the center as a reserve it is helpful. It is rare that you get overwhelming forces going all the way around to the rear of the formation to attack even in multiplayer so weakening it slightly is worth a reserve.
That’s some definitely good advice! I was thinking of removing one of the back Halberds and maybe even the back Handgunner unit (not the back corner ones though) and replacing them with Greatswords. I could also replace the Knights with Greatswords and add 2 other units, maybe some Mortars, a Wizard or something
@@MalleusGaming57 Maybe, especially the possibility of removing the back handgunner screen. The cavalry is pretty useful though especially if you weaken the rear wall to reinforce the front that way you can prioritize anything that hits the weak side. Another idea is that traditionally the cavalry should probably be pistoleers rather then heavy knights. Mortars are pretty good in the center or even cannons if you can leave the proper gap in the front to shoot past the line without letting leakers through.
@@FakeSchrodingersCat yeah I’m really liking the idea of using Outriders for the cavalry (I love the idea of Pistoliers but they’re just not good haha) definitely gonna have to play around a bit with the composition, quite a few choices can be made
@@MalleusGaming57 outriders can work. Pistoleers are situational I have had decent success with sitting behind engaged units but they definitely don't have the firepower to break a charge or go head to head with other ranged units.
I love this kinda stuff, I remember trying to use some of the Roman formations with the Triarii, Principes and Hastati using skirmisher units and different unit ranks mostly for the sake of fun, as it's hard to implement when dragons land on your ass lol, more kinda stuff like this would be great
Haha yeah the Romans definitely had trouble dealing with all those Dragons flying around for sure! Pesky beasts! Seriously though Roman formations is totally something I'd be interested in taking a look at with this series, I can't wait! Cheers bro glad you enjoyed this and thanks so much!
The weakness being vulnerable to dragons and magic is especially interesting to think about for me, because it really drives the point home that the Tercio was designed so specifically to be good at what it does in an irl setting, it has such an obvious disregard for things that the enemy would not have been able to do in the 1500s (magic and dragons) to seriously threaten its formational integrity on the battlefield. I’d imagine with some time and effort invested, someone might be able to come up with an improved Tercio formation that is specifically warhammer-esque, with considerations for all the fantastical elements in mind.
That’s an aspect that really interests me with this series as well, adapting real life tactics for a fantasy setting, and seeing what can be done to deal those weaknesses while still staying true to the spirit of those tactics. I find it really fun to think about and experiment with. Cheers bro!
Hm, perhaps you could try the Swedish Brigade system only with a mix of greatswords as shock troops. Come to think about it, you could include swordsmen or greatswords in the Tercio as tactical QRF or shock troops.
Absolutely I'll be looking into that at some point. I love learning about and trying to adapt historical formations that'd be really cool. And yeah I'll definitely be adding in some Greatswords, a lot of people here have recommended it and its just such a good idea. Cheers bud!
Interesting video! I can however see a possible weakness that wasn't directly mentioned. Both gunpowder and pike units (halbardiers, spears etc) Are not well suited against an enemy with superior ranged weapons. Woodelves, Highelves etc. Since bows can fire in a arc this means that depending on the terrain they will have clear line of sight of your units while you will have almost zero chance of retaliating. Especially effective when neither of your units use shields and part of them are facing the flanks leaving their sides exposed.
You are absolutely right it'd be an absolute massacre against Elves. This definitely isn't something you'd want to bust out all the time, it seems best against hordes of Melee troops. I feel like Elves in particular are just a hard counter to this. Thanks for watching bud!
Oh man I miss Medieval 2 I need to play it again sometime. I've found Halberds to be fairly good at holding, a few defensive buffs from a Wizard or General definitely help a lot though. My next iteration of this is gonna have some Greatswords as back up for the front line though, hopefully that'll help a lot
Thank you! And I absolutely will that sounds like it’d be really cool. Admittedly I know absolutely nothing about it but I love history and researching about it! Hopefully at least something can be utilized in wh3. Cheers bud!
I think the biggest problem for gunner team is that infantry simply don’t know how to crouch….so gunner can shot overhead. I found if front line infantries are as low as skaven slaves, unit like Warplock Jezzails can shot from behind straight away.
Yeah I wish we'd be able to get our gunpowder units to volley fire in crouch ranks or something that'd be so cool. Otherwise, you could do dwarf thunderers in front, empire handgunners behind them and then ogres in the third line
Less chance. But not "No Chance" :p lmfao that'd be one helluva surprise wouldn't it? Cheers bro I need to check out Shogun some day I've heard nothing but amazing things about it
Ive attempted Tercio formations in Warhammer 1 and 2 with mixed results, but I have to say, the Total War game where the Tercio works the best? Shogun 2, hands down. It makes sense, since it's the only Total War that takes place primarily at the same time in history that Europeans were actually using Pike and Shot. Despite this, it's not uncommon for historical tactics to be only marginally better than 'meta' tactics in Total War games -- so imagine my surprise when historicoa formations were actually extremely effective in Shogun (at least in my experience).
I actually forgot about the line of fire thing with guns in war hammer since i played years back and am not very good at it. Lets say i made the start of my empire campaign unnecessarily hard
I wasn't able to find it the other day when I was looking for a Southern Realms mod, I'll have to try again, I dunno if it just wasn't fully out yet or something
Not a good idea in a real battle, but once you draw the enemy cavalry in, you can reform your halberdiers into an inward facing chevron to allow gunners on the inside to put shot in the gap. May be risky depending on the AIs reaction. Not something to try against other players.
Funny you mention that, I had an idea to try and do a Formation change mid battle, it's something I'll have to practice at and see how well it can be pulled off though
Great, video ! I think it would work better with cathay tho, better hallebardes & better gunners, and support "tacticians" generals ! ty for the content :)
Lmao I mean the screaming Magistrate makes everything better! I was thinking about Cathay when doing this, I thought it was funny how they're probably the closest to making a proper Tercio. I want to check out how some of the other gunpowder races fair with this, that'd be really cool. Thanks bro!
You need to play Medieval 2 if you wanna do actual real life historic stuff like the Tercio. That game was miles ahead on formations than the big blob clusterf*** that is this engine. In M2 it's as if it was planned for. The pike length is 3 ranks long... so that means, the gunners can be 3 ranks in front of the pikemen, and still be able to fire by rank for those 3 rows, all the while being completely covered by a pike wall. When melee is engaged (with foot troops, as cavalry just insta-dies to pikes) the front row of gunners fill the sword roll, while the pikemen be pikemen. Once you reach the age of gunpowder the tercio dominates in that game. There is however no need for the box formation, as that game didnt try too hard to flank. Couple cav on the flanks was enough to protect a straight line... which focused all your power where it needed to be. I could never make the full switch in my games back in those days... as the investment put into those top tier knight armies was too great to just disband em all and replace them with a bunch of levie quality troops, even if the formation worked well in the field, it couldnt take a city.
It's been a while since I played M2, it was my first Total War game. I'll have to try it out again, mainly played it with The Third Age mod and the Divide and Conquer submod. I remember there being a really good mod for the base game, something Steel, I can't recall the name. Trying it out will be really fun thanks for the advice!
@@MalleusGaming57 Stainless Steel. M2 was a good game. M2 with Stainless Steel was still, to this day, the best game ever made. Just inching ahead of civ 4. By all means make sure you download that. The campaign map alone is worth it.
I would say that those history formations do not work good in Total war warhammer because best way too win any battle is too cheese the shit out of poor ai.
Early Tercio had few light sword infantery with breastplate with shield to support pikemen if their lines break. Those are call "rodeleros" (Sword and buckler Men). Sometimes they hire german mercenaries (Sack of Rome (1527)) so maybe some zweihander (as Landsknechte) doing this task make work too.
Rodeleros would have been cool to throw in, I just didn't feel like Empire Swordsmen (the best stand in) wouldn't add much to this. Greatswords on the other hand as Landsknechte would be really great to support the Halberdiers in the front! I'll probably swap out the Knights for them. Cheers bro!
Early the rodeleros and the swordmans with two handed were crucial to support the pikes in the clash, they were paid double to be there and the 2 handers used their swords to break and get away the enemy pikes.
@@albertobl1948 there was a "class" of mercenary in Germany referred to as "doppelsoldner" (double soldier) who were precisely what you said, men with 2 handers breaking up the enemy pike formation
@@ironCondor623 That is true they were used by the german Lanquesenettes, i can't tell who did it first but Spaniards used that tactic as well, if you think about it being in the first rows of the clash has the biggest risks so as well i has the biggest rewards, by the way the Spaniards that used to be front liners were called double pay soldiers or in Spanish soldados de doble paga.
@@albertobl1948 In the spanish tercio the "Doppelsoldner" were called doblepaga, double pay, who used a 2-handed sword called "Montante" that was about the height of the person wielding it.
I hope they will concept estalia like this in wh3, more focused on cool formations and not just make them a copy of other human factions. In their core, cathay empire bretonia and kislev feel all very similar to me.
That'd be so cool I really can't wait for a Dogs of War/Southern Realms DLC. Like, even just having some proper Pikemen alone would make me really happy haha
Haha a square for a more refined and civilized Noob! I'm having a lot of fun with trying to adapt historical tactics into Warhammer 3, I can't wait to do more! Cheers bud!
Very good idea indeed, would be cool if something like this would be introduced in a future DLC with Estalia and Tilea, Pikeman, Tercio formations etc...
Man this is insanly good content for me. I hate playing as the empire on the battlefield : ok at everything but weak vs ai cheat which tips the fargile balance of the empire. But roleplaying as the empire on the campaign map is so freaking cool. Such vids on actual brilliant tactics of history, usefull for my addiction is amazing
I’ve recently got into Total Warhammer and it then led me to historical formations and battles , for example with Alexander the Great, I like what you do combining them. May you continue to make videos like this! Love them!
That's awesome to hear! Thanks so much I'm glad you enjoyed this, I can't wait to get into more historical tactics, I was just thinking about Alexander the Great's tactics as well, I feel like they'd be really suitable with the Elves. Cheers bro!
Awesome video! Good to see you using real life scenarios! A suggestion though: Maybe make a simple set up of the formations on some software (even paint will do!) to see exactly how it would play out. Also, some more eagle eyed views of the battle would also be great!
Thanks so much bud! And yeah I definitely will do some more overhead shots next time, I wasn't 100% sure what I wanted to film but I've got a better grasp on it now. I think lol Cheers, thanks for the advice bro!
it's a cool video 🎉 you should have a look at mod named: landschneckt (an empire reskin) which looks more historic 😊 cheers and looking forward to seeing your next video!
Thanks bud! I love those subtle mods that add little details like the reloading one or more realistic textures. I love the immersion they bring as well
Oh this is super cool... I bet with some modification you could make this devastating for any range-heavy faction. Currently playing a Wood Elf campaign so I might just try this with some Eternal Guard + Glade Guard with maybe a few edge-prowling Waystalkers.
Lmao Squirrel, bro, I don’t even wanna think about how disgusting Wood Elves would be! 😂😂 Even a low tier army would be really cost effective like this I’d imagine. Plus they’ll be able to shoot over the Eternal Guard
I've had success with Halberds holding, they've got a pretty decent Melee Defence of 42 I think. Some buffs will help them out a lot though. Next iteration is gonna have some Greatswords as back up for them.
Been using this tactic since Shogun one when it first came out. Issues in warhammer as noted spells breath and artillery. For empire I find anti inf units to clear chaff on attackers flanks or center. Once attacking cav or fast units are contained advancing a second line of "pike" and pull back first line. Giving them a charge into a new fresh line. Crossbow men are great as a second line unit as well. One tip is play in slow mode. And don't be afraid of pause button. Mainly when you need a few units to move at once. Pause game command units then start game. I would argue the AI can and does use all pieces at once while we have to move our mouse around. Pause evens the playing field. One battle is over save and watch your work unfold in real time again. Issue: Pause if on to long will create playback hiccups in saves.
Haha it really is a timeless classic! That's awesome! That's a good call with the second pike line and the crossbowmen since they can shoot over the front line. And definitely sound advice with Pausing! I used to heavily when recording this as I was pretty much testing to see how it'd work. I saved the replay for the cinematic shots because there was no way I'd be able to get them and properly control everything. Thanks bro!
The problem of this formation are the Fénix from Elves and the Ghost Galeons from Vampire Coast, but the historical ones, not those from Warhammer. That's how Spain lost world hegemony, vampire pirates and the bloody leaf lovers.
Bro I'm craving Dogs of War now after researching and recording this vid! Pikemen, arquebusiers, pavise crossbowmen and all the crazy DoW units! It'd be so good!
Just saying. Tercio does not mean a particular formation, at the time it was a synonym for Army. And so it was called as such, because the King of Spain referred to them for the first time, in that way, when arranging 3 armies to which to divide the pay. An amount for each Tercio (Each third of the whole theatre of war). 2:40 That's Castillo formation (Castle formation) It's not the only one not even the most used. It is good for unit cohesion as an entity but not as a group. Was generally used when surrounded or at the very, very begining of the battle.
I think it is awesome how you were able to use a real life tactic and make it work in total war. I'll definitely have to try it out myself. Seems to work well. One thing I might (which does defeat the purpose of it, unless I can being in more units) is have a 2nd line of reserves at the front of the formation. Since the front will be taking mose of the beating it probably be best to reinforce it to keep it from failing.
Thanks so much! I find it a really interesting and fun challenge to adapt real life tactics and see how they can work in game, I can’t wait to try out more. And yeah that’s a good idea, I was thinking of either replacing the Knights or 2 units from the back for some Greatswords to help reinforce the front, they’d definitely help
Omg such scrubs! Didn't even know how to corner camp! Lmao I was thinking this was kinda like making your own Corner Camp, I guess really if the terrain is just not suitable or anything
I would recommend using two of your halberdiers as a reserve and shrinking the square accordingly. You gotta have something to shore up your front line with when they hit it. Also having a wizard would be extremely helpful, fight fire with fire.
Yeah I'm thinking of actually replacing 1 Halberd and Gunner from the back with Greatswords to support the front. That should help reinforce it, and stay thematically in line with the Tercio. I feel like Gelt would be a great commander for this since yeah he's a Wizard so he'll be able to buff your units and bombard enemy blobs
The Tercio could move but in game I don't think that's possible if you want to keep the formation. The Tercio was used in a line formation as well with pike in the center and shot on the flanks. I don't think this would work at all in game though. I was able to use this formation to very good effect in Medieval 2.
I really need to play Medieval 2 again its been a while and it was my first Total War game! With this formation you can move them around as long as you lock the group together with Ctrl + G, they'll march forward and then retake their positions. I didn't know it was used as a line formation as well, this has been really interesting for me learning about these tactics, thanks bud!
I usually as Empire use alternating gunners, melee and spears. One group has a unit of spears, a unit of melee (free company, greatswords or swordsmen) and gunners. I also integrate artillery. Smaller artillery like hellblaster volley guns work well as kind of like heavy MG crews while cannons are less flexible. You have everyone in square formation to be able to move quickly. Spears should be square or rectangle, 6 or more ranks deep. You start with gunners in front and to the side of each spear unit with melee in the rear. Artillery should be positioned safely and not in the back. When gunners fall back, fall back through the gaps between spear units. The enemy will not charge through those gaps. If he does, he is vulnerable on three sides. Your spears will engage in a deep formation with flanks providing clear lines of fire for gunners and artillery. If the enemy surrounds them they are vulnerable to gunners. Melee is used where necessary to plug gaps, intercept units, reinforce or replace spears on the frontline. When you move a gunner always move as a group, gunners and spears. They can flank while being covered from attack. Cavalry if historical would be pistoliers and lancers. Pistoliers harass the sides of big enemy formations and chase routing units. Lancers keep the flanks safe alongside dragoons (dismounted gunners) in wider formations and attack or break the enemy where necessaru. Outriders can fulfil the role of dragoons or leaders of pistolier groups very well.
That sounds really epic I love it! I’m gonna have to try it out! I love the idea of Pistoliers but unfortunately I feel the unit is kinda crap haha I do love Outriders though I feel they’re a bit better off than the Pistoliers
@@MalleusGaming57 Pistoliers in real life were heavy cavalry and they were great at attacking pike blocks. They should have better melee stats than Empire Knights but worse charge. Over time they became light cavalry with sabers and pistols but there were also heavy cavalry with heavy straight swords called Cuirassiers who also wore armour and charged straight ahead. But generally pistol carrying cavalry in early pike and shot should be heavy cavalry and should have armour piercing too.
Oh man those kind of Pistoliers sound absolutely epic! The tabletop models upon which these ones are based were purely a short ranged light missile cavalry, though they did get a little bit of an extra punch in close combat with their dual pistols. Gimme a solid armoured Sword and Pistol rider any day!
Thanks bud! Glad you enjoyed it! I found it really fascinating what you can pull from real life tactics, and how you can adapt them to deal with all the crazy fantasy stuff. It's a neat little challenge
@@MalleusGaming57 A fairer response then I expected to some extent honestly, I think I am kinda objectively correct that the guns in this game sound worse and act worse then the other guns in this series from back in Napoleon or Medieval 2. But ye.
I love trying irl tactics in Warhammer. Some things that I learned and tried. IRL, armies started out with low proportions of guns per pike. Say 2 pikes to 1 gun. Eventually it went to a 50/50 split, and then to 2 guns for 1 pike. Also, they said that most armies wanted about as much cavalry as infantry. We don't always hear about it, but cav can be used to protect flanks, as reserves to shore up the front line, a hammer, to chase off and destroy fleeing units, to scout and skirmish with the enemy before contact. In Warhammer, the AI rushes your line, and if they can, they try to flank around. Ranged units shoot as they get in range, and artillery fires where they can. So the key is being able to withstand the frontal assault, as you showed in this video. Protect your flanks, and let your guns fire. I think the Tercio struggles in Warhammer. IRL, there were no instant commands or perfect knowledge of the battlefield. So it made sense to group all your men around, and you didn't have to worry about flanks. But in Warhammer, the enemy will crash down upon one side, and then you don't have most of your army in the fight. And if or when they break that side, then your are flanked to the max! Checkerboard and Chevrons are compromises that address these problems. Checkerboard lets you get close to a 50/50 gun and infantry split, whereas chevrons can get you to that 2 guns/1 infantry split. Checkerboard is safer, while Chevron has higher potential damage. And the more damage you deal, the less damage you take. The problem with Chevrons is that it skimps on infantry for guns, which weakens the line. If we have the chevron with 2 guns for 1 infantry, then at most, we can have 6 infantry and 12 guns, with the Lord and a misc unit, maybe a cannon. This is really powerful, especially if you put one 3 man unit to protect each flank. I like having the guns in front to fire a volley, before quickly pulling them back to safety, in order to blast the enemy who get caught on the infantry. Instead of forcing a rigid chevron, I prefer using the infantry as a road block, with the guns behind and shooting, almost like a mini-Tercio. The guns will move where they are most needed, perhaps even reinforcing another part of the line. In my testing, the chevrons invest too much into guns, which leaves other parts of the army lacking. It is a powerful offensive formation, but kind of a glass cannon. Cavalry is key, because of their responsiveness. Enemy cav will try to wheel around, out of reach of danger, and if you've played Dwarves, you know the hopeless feeling. Plus, extra cav can serve as a reserve force behind the front line, charging into whichever part of the line is weakening. And if they are not needed there, then they can ride out to assist the rest of the cav in a multitude of operations. (Some armies placed guns among their cav, to reinforce. Imagine two units of Empire Knights on a flank, with a unit of handguns in between. When the enemy approaches, the handguns can open fire, weakening the enemy before you cav charge home, steel in hand. I think it would be really good, but it is hard to find the room.) The real problem is that we only have 20 units to play with, and we need a Lord. So we need to figure out what ratio to use. We need some cav. We need enough infantry to hold back the enemy charge. We need enough guns to kill the enemy army. And we need some artillery to help us with sieges. Checkerboard is more stable. You can either bookend the line with infantry or guns. For example, in a 9 man line, you can have either 5 inf and 4 guns, or 5 guns and 4 inf. Having the inf on the outside protects the guns from attack, but leaves you short on guns. Having guns on the outside gives you more firepower, but leaves them vulnerable to flanking. However, you can secure that with cav. My new tech is to go 1 gun, 1 infantry. Place the guns directly in front of their infantry unit. Have the guns max stretched out, and have the infantry in a block. The guns fire some initial volleys, and then pull back behind the infantry. Since they are stretched out, and the infantry is a block, they can still shoot around the infantry with most of their guns, while leaving little to no opening for the enemy to sneak through. I like bringing 6 cav. 2 cav on each flank to guard and then move out aggressively. And 2 cav in reserve, to protect the artillery, reinforce the line if need be, or if not needed, they can move out to the flanks to get into the action, which greatswords or other reserve units couldn't do. Artillery fills out the rest of the army. I think 4 is a good max. Artillery is great for sieges, and for outranging your enemy, but once the battle closes to hand to hand, they struggle to find targets without butchering your own men.
This was all amazing thank you so much! I definitely agree, a Checkerboard or Chevron is easier to use but for variety’s sake I do like having different tactics to use. Your composition ideas are great! I’ll definitely look into trying them out thank you so much bro!
@@MalleusGaming57 I'm glad you liked it. I typed it all fast, and then was like, should I really post all this? :D This was actually my second attempt since I didn't post another one, but I just really wanted to share. :D After I left my comment, I went back into Warhammer 3 to do some more testing, against a 20 man Orc Boyz rush army. Surprisingly to me, the chevron army did the best, because more guns made a big difference. Also, focusing the Lord down first made a big difference. My army was 6 halberds, 12 handguns, the Lord, and 1 cannon, which was needed to get them to come at me. The orc army could easily have outflanked me, but as I pulled my handguns back, they targeted the halberds, which let me shoot them to pieces. I did feel the need for some cav, especially when I won the battle, and couldn't chase the fleeing orcs. But my front line was stretched as it was. That's where I got the idea for a reinforcing army filled with cav. Cut the army down to 5 halberds, 10 handguns, 4 cannons, and the Lord. Then a reinforcing army with another Lord, and up to 12 Empire Knights/Reiksguard, and 6 Pistoliers/Outriders. I think that's what it takes to have a complete IRL style army, that works in Warhammer 3. Plus, the chevron style used, of two flanking handguns for every halberd unit, is very similar to the formations used by the Dutch in the 80 Years War, and the Swedish under Gustavus Adolphus in the 30 Years War. Good luck with the videos! They are very fun!
@@shorewall bro thank you so much! I love that composition and never really thought about having a reinforcing cavalry army! I guess it’s a lot more viable now that the Supply Lines aren’t as punishing. I’ll definitely look into more of those formations, getting them to work in the game is a lot of fun
You are better off just using more guns or crossbows instead of spears. A checker board of guns will get more shots off and do far more damage then a spear formation, and the extra guns reduce the amount of incoming damage. Range is king in TWWH I think ideally a tercio style unit in WH would have some embedded spears but primarily being a gun unit to allow it to be used as hybrid infantry like the Lothern Sea Guard.
Yeah a Checkerboard is simpler to set up and use, I just like finding other ways to use things too, even if just for variety’s sake. There aren’t any gunpowder units with anti-large Melee are there? That’d be really cool to have
@@MalleusGaming57 The armour piercing usually does the job anyway. The volume of fire tends to outweight the hidden downside of melee AL, plus you can just just use crossbows instead if you want raw HP damage instead of anti armour. Late game you really should be just using artillery as your anti large too. In saying that too, whilst I firmly believe that is the most optimal empire playstyle, I'm not always a fan of it. The humans are sort of meant to be the main race of WH but they have some of the poorest variety unfortunately, which sort of makes them slaves to the metagame if you wanna go higher than normal difficulty. Good video nonetheless but yeah.
@@MalleusGaming57 Ideally Empire would have better melee and unique heroes, possibly with some kind of abilities to make them represent the technological advantage Empire has other races (Alongside the Dwarves). If I ever want a proper melee frontline I'll just use a captain instead lol.
Another weakness is that it doesn’t concentrate force at the front. AI in WHTW doesn’t really flank that much except with cavalry, so your units at the front will be punished while are redeploying your halberds from the sides to go help them.
Very good point! I’m thinking of taking a unit of Handgunners and Halberds from the back and using them to reinforce the front. A single unit of Halberds should be fine at the back, just in case
@@MalleusGaming57yeah just an issue that makes me get bored eventually with TW games. Once you can predict the AI and manipulate it, the excitement of the battles goes away and it becomes more of a sandbox game, which is still fun but without the same sense of threat. Just a problem with single player games in general I guess.
Great video, various comments the Tercio close combat is a fusion the swordmen, pikemen and halberdiermen. So your inclousion of halberdiermen is perfect because the first line is their place, also you can incloude swordmen has a second line because all soldiers has one and when the pike is broke the pikemen combert a swordmen and fight like one. Another thing, you can incloude one greatswords as a dooppelsolner (to breake onther pike's formation) or guard for the general (maestre de campo) because is also historical. For the cavallery you must incloude 2 or 3 imperial pistoliers or outriders (reiters and arcabuceros a caballo) as skirmish or protect the flank and 1 or 2 knights in reserve. The Tercio was a perfect unit because is professional soldiers and his flexibility in the field, adopt various formations and tactics not only "cuadro cerrado". Thanks for the video and sorry for my english.
Thanks for watching! Your English is really good no need to apologize :) Having some Greatswords is a great idea, a few people have mentioned it and I totally agree they'd help out the front line a lot. I wish the army could be a bit bigger than 20 units, adding in some Outriders would be amazing along with the Knights. Thanks for your comment and advice amigo!
Thanks for this, was getting really bored with the standard square formation I always use. This formation and unit combo works great against the vampires!
If you brought a Captain or maybe some Greatswords instead of the cavalry you could really get some more beef in that infantry line whilst not needing to worry about screening out enemy cav as much
That's a good idea, I was thinking the cavalry aren't really too necessary in this, replacing them with some Greatswords behind the front line of Halberds seems like great solution! Cheers bud!
@@MalleusGaming57 Happy to help. Also helps cut down on the micro. If you do this with Gelt or bring a caster with a good unit buffing lore you can probably make this work really nicel
I mean it's accurate. Pike squares and infantry square's greatest weakness is artillery since they're in a compact square which means a cannon ball will wreck havoc through their formation. What's preventing them from breaking will be their training and discipline and sheer iron balls to stand up while being shredded by artillery and firearms alike.`
Early modern muskets at worst would get a 3/5 hit rate at a single target to 80 meters and irl were more likely using a bit better gas seal than modern paper towels and would be firing on an entire formation in salve or volley I wish there was a way to make a countermarch in Warhammer, the front rank fires and while spending 30 - 50 seconds loading would go the the back of the loose gunman square, rinse and repeat and save a few salves for a close and last minute volley at around 20 - 50 meters
Seems that the biggest obvious weakness is that it's an inefficient allocation of forces; since maintaining the formation means you'll always have troops out-of-combat while your opponent commits their full strength. So if two forces of equal value fight one another, with one deployed in this way, there's a clear misbalance.
one massive flaw i see is that this would be suicidal against the skaven. rattlingunners, jezzails and plagueclaw catapults will most likely destroy you fairly quickly. they outrange and outgun you by a wide margin. on the other hand this formation can be really good when playing as the skaven, if your rats can hold the line that is.
oh yeah there are definitely a few factions I would not use this against, Skaven particularly but also Wood Elves and probably Chaos Dwarfs, the ranged power of those races is just waaaay too much!
Oh I definitely plan to! I've made heavy use of Checkerboard and Chevron formations but this'll be really fun to use! Preferably I'd like to use a Southern Realms mod to unlock Estalia!
1550 european lord fighting against invincible Spanish Tercios: - Sir how can i win against them?! - you must know their weaknesses. Use artillery. - sure! But i don't have many... what else? - Use magic and dragons! - ... - ...
My Empire Campaign was going super poorly until I adopted a similar tactic. Every army consisted of the same: -Arch Lector -Warrior Priest -Light Mage -5 Halberds -6 Handgunners -2 Reiksguard -2 Cannons -2 Hellstorm Rocket Batteries (replace w/Cannons for early game) Basically had a similar deployment strategy; except I did not have as deep a formation since I wanted all my guns shooting at the same time- the Spaniards didnt have Net of Amytok, so we have a bit of an advantage for being able to focus fire.
Bro! I didn’t even think of Warrior Priests or an Archlector! They’d be sooo good buffing the troops! I really like your army composition definitely gets me thinking for this. Cheers bud!
