@Janglenutter to be honest if u hit any unit from the back with cavalry it will wreak havoc. XD. PS. I dont play this game but know a decent amount of classical/medieval combat.
If you really want to beat pikemen double up infantry, loose one formation after first gets contact. Unzip the formation by forcing the loose guys through. You have to actively micro a push, expend some dudes but begin the actual attack. You can't bet on loose pike formations. Unzip them manually if necessary. But generally skirmish and rear cavalry attacks are best
Infortunaly, in that game, the arms of soldiers and their weapon don't break during battle, so that strategy, will give you a lot of bresaola if you want... But not victory... Bresaola is horse meat
But... Legionary cohort is kinda end-game unit, while pikeman is tier 1 ~ 2 unit. They should be fighting against Foot Companion, not just common pikeman squad.
+Il-Young Jung I just massacred a near full unit (100+ men) of egyptian thorax pikemen (tired, high morale, very heavy pike) with a half strength (exhausted, low morale, 68 men) town militia principes (very heavy sword). This tactic works! They came in 4 ranks deep. I spread out to two ranks deep, loose formation, with formation attack off. Then I prayed. :D
Hey, you were in luck. I just tried something similar in EB: Rorarii, Akontistai and Greek Levy Hoplites, supported by Equites Consulares, all half strength or lower, against a full unit of Syracusian Hoplites. I won by the narrowest of margins.
That might be true of amateurs who don't know how to play the game, but with veteran players imitating the generals of antiquity it matters little whether their opponent has a solid line of pikes. Pikes are too hard to maneuver. You can just refuse an engagement and keep skirmishing, offering battle only when the pikemen are out of formation and vulnerable to being flanked. Battles are complicated and things would not happen in as simple a way as I go on to describe - there are way more ways in which pikemen could lose their battle order - but the following account serves to illustrate what usually happens: The skirmish could end up with a big cavalry engagement being fought, and if the state using pikemen loses then the battle is over. They harass the enemy skirmishes and use their own to decimate the enemy pikemen. What follows is a box on the enemy part which might make the battle a more bloody one, but it will result in a loss for the person using pikemen allthesame.
You're damn right. I've taken ridiculous casualties when I've somehow allowed my pike wall to lose cohesion, once the enemy break through the ranks, chaos ensues. Granted, I play with DeI which is awesome for a bit of added realism, but I wager the same still applies in vanilla.
RagingBlast2Fan unless your opponent knows your creating a pike wall, and as long as you pick some archers and slingers (or even artillery) the skirmish fight won't work so well, especially since the pikes aren't that vulnerable when you disable the phalanx (you obviously have to check if the enemy is far away. Rome 2 pikes, properly camped especially in the corner, just break the game.
@@brovahkiin4302 slingers are better used against other missile troops/units, javelins have better chances probably at hurting heavy inf. As for archers is just for better range plus their heavy arrows. Played too much Medieval 2 nowadays, but trying to get back on Rome 2.
Remote Detonation It seems to be an really effective way of defeating spike units but one important point is missing. What do you wanna do if there is a close formation between spike units and you can not get them from the side? Specially in towns by small ways and streets. But the main idea is great, thanks for that =)
It ignores the most important mechanic in real life though. Roman legionaries were actually almost immune from archery attack. They could advance with large rounded shields that the arrows would mostly bounce off of, and had in later years excellent body armor and helmets as well, that were for all intents and purposes arrow proof. Phalanx however were effective when densely packed and the long spears were two handed weapons meaning they did not carry shields. Yes, this left them vulnerable to flanking, especially from cavalry, but even more so to archery volleys. The Romans engaging the greeks would hit the phalanx with skirmishers, ballista, and archers that could hide behind the heavily armored and shielded legionaries. This forces the phalanx, which cannot move quickly with the large heavy spears and dense unit formations to try to engage as quickly as possible head on, otherwise the missile attacks, of which the legionaries themselves carried two pillum to launch attacks, opening themselves to flanking attacks and being greatly diminished by the time the legionaries have to engage in close quarters combat.
@@BoopSnoot dude. Here's a little info for you. Pikeman did have shields. Small round shields but shields at the and. Starpped from their shoulders. And another important thing is the ranks. In a real phalanx first 5-6 ranks would lower their sarissas while the other ranks behind would hold them in an angle to shelter enemy projectiles. Not full protection but protection at the and. I mean it was not as easy as you think to beat a pike phalanx. And it's flanks would be well protected with decent infantry. Especially with hypaspists in Alexander era. And with a decent cavalry support as well.
That means you need to weaken them otherwise with missiles. Or since a deep legionaries formation will not do much against a line of pikes, you can use one two-ranks deep legionaries formation to hold up 2 pike formations so the rest can manoeuvre
Basically unless you have some sort of missile engagement beforehand pikes always win. It is true though, phalanxes have always been incredible walls, their only drawbacks were movement and in real historical accounts due to their slow movement and maneuverability they would be decimated by archers and of course Javelins. I do remember a historical account by Alexander the Great where he said that due to the spears that were being held in the air the men in the back would not be hit by arrows due to them block the projectiles, not so pretty for the men in front though which were actually holding off the enemy, but hey he is the man that never lost a battle.
In a frontal battle you have to either missile them to death. Or you have to bind them with a frontal attack while the cavalry/quick units ge arond. In the binding case, loose formation will still reduce your casualties. Basically they will not "try too hard" to get into melee by charging into the frontal spears. Really the goal here is to disrupt their formation any way you can: Siege weaponry. Ranged Weapons. Loose Formation Flanking, Cavalry flanking. Once you manage to pull that off Pikemen are not good fighters. Too many resources are bound up in that frontal awesomeness. They are desperately trying to keep the enemy out of melee for just that reason.
U wont outflank anything in a battle like that, because pikeman dont stand alone. There will be always a couple of foot companians standing next to each other with no space between them.
I can't believe I wasted 10 mins of my life thinking someone found a way to out flank pike men, after I've already spent hundreds of hours of playing Rome 2. Thanks...
Well since Greek hoplites and Pikemen Are carry a Little Round shield. I say Any trying any type of missile Slingers, Archers, Javelin men. Or Peltasts to weaken the Pikemen then flank’em with since the Pikemen have very limited speed and can be out maneuvered by any cavalry units
Yeah. So we assume that you play against an idiot. He brings only pikes. No hoplite or shield bearers to protect the flank and no cav no missile. Just pikeman. By the way, hoplites did not had small shields. They had huge shields called hoplon. Pikes carried small strapped shield called pelta because they had to hold the sarissa with two hands. I wonder it why persians were not as "clever" as you guys. How would those idiots lose against "pikes". All they had to do was fire some arrows and flank them. That easy right?
I would have liked a test against an unbroken line of several pike units, I very much doubt spread formation is as effective in that case. Still very interesting, thank you for putting the time and effort into these tests :).
Horses on the flanks. Archers behind to hit the loose units as they approach the pike wall. Add a few good melee units in reserve just in case one wall falters.
I guess I play this game casually.. If I actually go to fight on the battlefield, I always for a circle with pikes/spears/ melee supporting eachothers flanks and with my general and ranged in the middle. usually the AI attacks the front and first few units on the side since it can sense that my back is closed up, then after about 30 sec when all units are engaged I take my lowe half of tte circle and split it up,usually giving me 4-6 units. I then move those units up behind the enemy half circle and attack the from the rear. It's casual play I assume but it wins me battles where the enemy has 4 times as many troops and I like it. Also since I hate AND suck at cav, I'm looking forward to Total War Warhammer where the dwarves have no cav and really heavy inf and range.
You are descriping the best tactic when using pikemen. Only once I had trouble using this tactic; In my comquest of Russia I was suddently facing wave after wave of ranged Mongols! I used arbalest ranged units, so I could keep firing for a very long time, but there is a limit of how many men that can hide behind those pikes ;)
WRONG. A slinger throws rocks, specially shaped rocks, and at high speed an impact from such a rock on an armored foe, provokes concussion damage. Slingers butchering armored targets makes perfect sense, that how they were used historically. Bows were not as powerful in those days, Agincourt and english longbow are 1400 years away.
The new ai, atleast for warhammer, in highest difficulty always circle your army first then weaken them using range. Then they concentrate cheap units backed up by 1-2 stronger one in the center while the rest of the strongest unit wait for a weak point then attack your there. In a full army setup i still sometimes lose :/
Very cool video. I play off and on and was always afraid to try loose formation. My thinking was “that’s meant for missile def. so I never bothered testing this thanks for the tip
In line formation, holes begin to appear between phalanxes as casualties from missiles and fighting accumulate, allowing for this exploit in frontal assault. I once had an elite unit of Celtic cavalry smash into my pike line, at the fracture between two pike units, dividing them and followed up I to the breach with infantry, which widened the gap and threatened breakthrough. But since I screen my line with medium skirmishers, and they pull back during assault, I had reserves in the second line to plug the gaps. The AI was very creative in that battle and almost beat me.
ten minutes of 'a situation that will never exist'. Pikes are a frontline, center unit that has their flanks covered entirely for this specific reason. The best way to handle them is to not handle them directly in the front. Get Velites, archers, slingers, anything that can ping them from range. Break them that way. Pikemen are those units that are super easy to deal with in the start but if ignored become SUPER DANGEROUS in the end.
I love my pikeman, I frequently use them in a bow formation, with two light-medium infantry units on each side, then encircle the enemy with said infantry if they're not engaged
If you’re playing a pike based faction here’s a pro tip: keep at least a third of your pikemen in reserve to fill gaps in the line. This strategy allows you to quickly fill in areas with high attrition rates, and reaping to cavalry flanking maneuvers without changing your primary fighting line. Furthermore, if you do happen to lose all your cavalry or a significant portion of your opponents forces successfully surround you, having a third of you forces behind the main line allows you to form the “noob” pike box which will keep your first line alive until there is a break in the enemies lines and you can reallocate pikemen to reinforce others (this generally begins a chain reaction of breaking already engaged enemy units and freeing up more and more of your pikemen to attack elsewhere).
I love using pike men in assault of defences of smaller settlements. I love blocking of exits with pikes and keeping them in gaurd mode and just watching seas of enemies run at them. I keep middle units in the middle to hit their own middle units and a some fresh sword/spearman to back up or rotate once fatigue has set in. I also hide some cav to shock hit or mop up any anyone flanking units or missle units. Favourite thing is to watch pikes stay fresh in gaurd mode then slowly advance forward
This is for free any RU-vidr who will make a video of this go ahead and confirm it. Experience it is what makes pike break of course the until would have to be a high tier perhaps like armored legions or thorax swordsmen can win a full frontal attack against a unit like Hellenic royal guard with no exp and no armor and weapons. If I’m wrong then I haven’t played long enough.
This very informative, but most pike engagements will be 3 or four units protecting each others flanks with only the flanks on either ends being exposed.
Yeah it's knowned the famous greecs conquest of italy and how greecs then conquer mediteran zone and 120 men in a phalanx could EASILY kill 3000 guy in heavy plate whith a shield almost as tall as you ... Well boy we got the king of stupid here
1. Standard roman soldiers didn't have "heavy plate" by any measure at the time of their Hellenic conquests... 2. The pike phalanx DID defeat the legion frontally, this is a fact verified by period sources. Romans won through a wide range of other advantages, NOT the ability to defeat a phalanx frontally.
TheChiconspiracy I agree. Roman Maniples were design to counter phalanxes. They were designed to be more maneuverable so the could outflank phalanxes. Battle of Cynocephalae anyone?
The only proper way to fight pikes is unzip one end with either contact or skirmish, and push units through to the other side. Now the problem with pikes is when engaged trying to reform the phalanx will kill a ton of your unit. So really getting past that initial push and forcing your guys farther into the formation is the best counter. You can win head on versus a pike wall just concentrate on that first unzip and then if they move to fill in they just make gaps to exploit. Notice how long it takes for either a phalanx to reform or them to move in that tight formation? Super slow. So Skirmish and follow up for the push or unzip and exploit. Flanking is the obvious choice but nobody just leaves the flank open from the start; unless you have an unholy amount of cavalry.
So in summary, use loose formation to flank enemy pikes. And if you're the one using them, make sure your flanks are secure with more pikes or some other unit.
the best way to beat a SOLID line of pikes (no gaps) is to focus all your missile fire on one part of the line, then blob your infantry through the gap to encircle the entire formation.
@@rdg665 "missile fire" includes javelins, which can quickly tear pikes apart. they wont have more archers than you because they will have to field pikemen. even if they end up defeating you, you will have inflicted humongous casualties. Then you can defeat the pike army with a REAL army.
@@rdg665 what you could do to combat this is just have archers of your own and use them to kill the enemy archers, then use your javelinmen to attack. In DEI at least, javelinmen can throw all of their ammunition before the archers even kill 20 men.
I prefer my pikes 3 ranks deep but I make two-three battle lines covered in the center with the best archers I can afford. That way if one line gets "flanked" the one either in front or behind simply about faces or drives forward and engages. Flanking them simply puts the enemy in a double sided meat grinder. If the enemy prefers to sit, have the front line engage and wrap the second lines around with the third in close reserve for flanking attacks on your forces. Its simple and deadly, especially in MP where siegecraft is limited by most players.
+Zachary Moye Also, while being a great informative video, I will point out that these units are not of the same tier. I have never had problems facing someone head on with pikes, even with pratoreans vs Thorax pikes.
1. Pikes will never be spaced like that i.e. having exposed flanks 2. pikes will never be 2 rows deep 3.Pikes are not a offensive weapon unless Elite unit, they are meant to hold enemy in an engagement while another unit flanks to kill .... 4. A good player will never have single pike unit moving out , it will be supported due to the slow speed mentioned above... this fact alone kills any advice given in this video
One time I was playing a friendly co-op game against my friend and accidentally took over his opponent in battle. As a joke I charged my skirmish cavalry at his pikes but stopped them right before they made contact and just loosed my javelins. It cost him the siege but was also very funny.
Guys if u can u need to laight charge frontaly then push with lose formation...if u are playing against 4 foot companions go for it but if u are playin against 5 or more just dont do shit and try to attack as hard as possible and disctract the enemy while u try to flank from right or left side (the most effective is from sides becuase from the back is not that effective)
Try this shi' with Divide Et Impera, it's suicide to attack phalanx from the front. What I do is just have a unit hold ground while phalanx advances, or vice versa, engage and as soon as that happens I flank them from the back with a cavalry unit. They rout almost instantly. Then you just keep going down the line and in no time you'll defeat the whole army. Even better if you have 2-3 cav units with general included.
I mean this is rather obvious since you are doing a 1v1 per unit. But the way you use pikes is with a strong central core, surrounded on either side by more flexible spears or swordsmen, as well as the fact that having ranged units behind to harass the enemy as the approach. This is not taking into account the high likelihood that a nation such as the Seleucids would most likely also bring heavy war elephants and Kataphractoi with them.
Several problems here. Pikes, if used correct will be protecting each other, so wrapping around them will be very difficult. In your demonstration you used much higher sword troops then the pikes. Simple fact is, pikes are only vulnerable to missiles unless you can control the battlefield.
Pionilo Puertollano Not by a long shot. pikes will, like pretty much any other unit in the game bar the lowest tier slingers and javelinmen, utterly destroy peasant mobs. That said, pikes are far from ideal as a melee unit. It's not like they can't, but there are many units better suited to the role.
The Louster correct.the back and sides.and if they are getting shot by skirmishes ,scare them by using cav next to them (not charging them cuz the supporting units that is behind the archers in most cases can attack u or throw javs).that way u force the skirmish unit to retreat ,so u gain some time to push foward
How good are Carthaginian pikes compared with those of other factions? Are they more cost effective than the levy or standard pikes of an Hellenic faction? What are the most important stats for a pike unit? Thanks :)
African Pikemen are great. Comparable to Thorax Pikemen, and slightly cheaper. They are not more cost effective than say Pikemen because pikes are a glorified picket fence. Levy or standard pikes are more cost effective simply because the cheaper the 1-2 pikes you bring are the better, up to a certain point. Standard pikes are more resilient to missiles, but they still suck. The three most important stats for a pike unit are, in order of importance: Melee attack/weapon damage (more pikes hit enemies, do more damage) , armour ( more resilient to missiles) and hitpoints ( more resilient to everything). In pike vs pike combat, melee attack, weapon damage, armour, health and melee defence make the difference.
This game doesn't pretray mass very well. And real pike blocks are 16 ranks deep. Plus they can bring down five pikes down not the three this game show's
You shouldn't allow for pikemen to be flanked. That is the whole porpose of the thing: focus on front offensiveness and use a lot of support troops for protecting the flanks. And use a continuous line of pikes. This analises was completely useless, because you are not defeating it frontally, you are out flanking it. And everybody already know that the way to do it is to out flank it or break the line some way, like with artilary or even missile or something else.
what if the pike units are lined up abreast and you cant flank them? are there any units that can take them then? is there any chance you can disrupt thier formation by trying to push though them?
Gas Tsoum true.no unit will be in the battlefield without support from another .the combo of pikes in the front and thureo Spears in the back and in the side of that pike unit,an thureo spear and behind that unit an pike(so the thureo can retreat behind the pike unit ,baiting the enemy and managing to throw 1x the javelins
