You aren't actually required to join your ally in war if your ally declared the war, you can decline for minimal or potentially no penalties. If your ally has war declared on them and you are asked to join you are required to join... unless enough turns have passed since you formed the alliance that your diplomatic bonus has hit the minimum amount (I believe that's 20 turns). At that point you can break the alliance by declining to join war with minimal penalty (no honor loss or global diplomatic penalty, just a small penalty to that clan in specific). Just don't declare war on your former ally for another... 10 turns I think, and make sure you break any military access agreements between you at least 10 turns before you go to war with them.
Even more annoyingly, they break alliance with you if you're just in a military alliance with them, so every time someone declares war on you, all your formerly allied factions also get the potential to declare war as well.
@@curtiswong7280 In TW games I generally never ask allies to join wars, it's better to keep them as allies defending their area, than take the risk of them refusing (they are more likely to join if you are being attacked and are not the aggressor). You can ask them to join the war later, which might need some gold, and they might join you.
Couple of small points but your first vassal that was very friendly was mainly down to the marriage. Had they not had a daughter to marry it would probably just have been friendly. The other thing is that you said you can get a vassal by conquering their last province, but you also can resurrect a clan that has been wiped out by another clan previously. Very similar in practice, but not sure how it affects their attitude to you.
Yes exactly, the marriage alliance helps add extra to get very friendly, but just through the vassalization of the Saito through diplomacy plus the trade agreement it should keep higher relations. Right clan resurrection, I’ll consider that gaining a vassal by warfare just you revive another clan instead of subjugating the one you are fighting.
@@TripleZHacker The value of vassals are honor (losing a vassal does not lose honor) and bufferzones. EVERYONE (unless you use mods) WILL betray you when it comes to realm divide. If you stacked enough friendly relationship then not right away, but it is inevitable. Bufferzones are only then really usefull if it means you do not care about the province (low fertility, no special buildings, no bordergore = no money) and usually if the clan is friendly with a bigger, hostile to you clan on the other side. That can just buy you time to deal with someone else. Other than that, vassals are not useful. They can be harmful too by dragging you into wars with your allies. (I see you did mention that at the end) So yeah, farm honor with them and trade agreements but only in shitty provinces that make no money and do not have a special building. Otherwise you are better off taking the provinces yourself.
Reviving dead factions as vassals is good because it usually erases any negative penalties in diplomacy you may have had with them before they were wiped out.
@@AvengerAtIlipa Yes it can be, but I have also revived some this way and it still has the past grievances negative factor, so I'm not sure what the conditions are that guarantee such an outcome. I'll definitely do some further testing on it.
Recently on my Ikkio Ikki run I had surrounded Kyoto and was ready to become Shogun. Although Otomo owned the entirety of Kyushu and Shikoku and parts of mainland Japan. Poised to counter my moves for Shogunate I pushed Otomo out of mainland Japan and liberated ouchi and mori as vassals. The Mori started guerilla fighting across the islands and trading ports gaining and losing 3 provinces on the mainland to then relocating on Kyushu with two provinces before their eventual demise. Through this I was able to gain dominance over all of the trading ports and distract Otomo from invading me while I built up my economy. Now I'm using vassals to convert the north of Japan by holding hubs that touch many provinces of my vassals and converting them with Ikkio temples. That way when I eventually have to conquer my vassals they are already converted and I paid no additional cost to garrison the forts during conversion.
My first time playing Shogun 2, I made a vassel out of almost every province I liberated, trying to be on the right side of history and be everyone's friend. I don't think I've ever experienced such heart wrenching betrayal from an AI besides in Shadow of War.
Reminds me of playing some of the paradox series game and realizing that I could do some real scummy things against the AI, but instead being nice thinking my niceness would save me... You best to believe that I now use every trick up my book I know I can do
I remember playing as the Ashikaga Shogunate in a mod years ago and found that my vassals were quite loyal... allies and neutrals were not, as they'd constantly war with my vassals, bringing me into it. But when all was said and done, literally all of Japan was almost identical to how it looks in 1545, except every faction that I could make my vassal was my vassal, and every extra province outside of their capital was Ashikaga's personal land, the map was hardcore border gore for Ashikaga but interesting. Turns out, the AI is hardcoded not to turn on the Ashikaga unless certain conditions are met. Conditions that couldn't be met with me controlling them. Too easy that campaign was.
I've found if you keep relationship high they'll be so loyal they'll even stick with you through Realm Divide. It's just not clear where the dividing line is, which makes in unintuitive and frustrating. Just like with how in Napoleon and Rome 2 it can be really unclear which particular province needs to be captured last to release a vassal, again unclear unintuitive and frustrating
it's a certain amount of happiness but the problem is that realm divide gets you an increasing penalty to diplomatic relations and I don't think there's a limit so unless you pour a ton of money into it they will betray you eventually
The key is temperament and integrity Defensive vassals with good integrity usually stay loyal. Aggressive vassals want to expand and if your proveniences encircled theirs they’ll try and take yours. Vassals with treacherous integrity can be kept at heel by keeping a stack of ashigaru next to their castle. AI are unlikely to betray unless they think they can take territory from you within about ten turns and even if they do betray small time vassals are usually so weak militarily you can use the stack can immediately bring them to heel like a good overlord. (Also vassals created post realm divide, or brought to heel afterwards suffer no diplomatic penalties)
@@simonnachreiner8380 they do gain realm divide negative penalty, but it takes a turn to start and it builds up back from 0. So every turn is - 20 penalty i think, stacking.
Vassals are half the reasons I love Shogun 2. One problem I have with most TW campaigns is that when you progress the world feels more and more empty. When map ends up being divided into two colors, one for my giant empire and the other for the last remaining AI's empire, I am rarely having fun by that point. There's no more surprises, no dynamics, just a giant meatgrinder on the frontlines. Even before, when realm divide happens - it just feels lonely. Everyone forgets their respective conflicts, and just decides that YOU need to go down. Vassals are the obvious answer to making the late game more fun, and I'll try describing some other reasons why I think so. You mentioned the use of vassals throughout the game before realm divide, and I wholeheartedly agree, using them as temporary buffers is great. But not using them after realm divide to me is sacrilige. For one, they actually do stay loyal, since the relationship has no reason to deteriorate other than your territorial expansion, but that can be easily countered by a) trade and b) giving them gifts occasionally, since as shogun in the late game you can usually afford it. Not to mention gaining vassals at this point usually means liberating settlements previously conquered by your enemy, so you start off as friendly without past grievances. One strategic detail you forgot to mention - when you are on a territory with a big enemy army, or several, but you manage to conquer the settlement and liberate/vassalise the owner, the enemy armies don't have the right of passage and they immediately get moved over the border. In certain cases this can save your skin, especially as you gain one unit in the process and a vassal daimyo with several units who you can now help defend the fort, should the previously mentioned enemy declare war on your vassal, which is not a necessary thing to happen. Some territories are huge, so this maneuver can buy you several turns worth of time. Another thing I'd also like to mention is taking a look at who you vassalise - when the temperament of the clan is "aggressive" or "ambitious", they are a lot more likely to betray, BUT, often that is only because you gave them no other outlet. These clans want to conquer. Declare war on some of their neighbours, and watch them go on a conquering spree. Honestly; watching a vassal walk along the coast of Japan taking one settlement after another in your name is one of the most satisfying experiences of mine with this game. As for YOUR conquering sprees - taking a settlement for yourself usually means dealing with bad public order and possible riots. If you'd like to continue marching further right after conquering a settlement, you'll probably need to leave some of your units, weakening your army. Vassalising, as you have mentioned, actually does the opposite and strenghtens it! You can march through three or even more weakly defended settlements in a few turns, effectively pushing your rival's borders way back, while gaining several trade routes with the clans you've liberated, without having to worry about betrayal in the foreseeable future! And even if they do decide to betray you in time- still better having the resistance split into three uncoordinated minor armies than having the settlements in the hands of the big rival. The betrayal is also usually fairly forseeable. Either the game straight up tells you (threat of attack), or you simply see your relationship deteriorating. Either way it can be postponed by gifts. Making a vassal can often simply work as "I want this settlement, but not right now, since I need to either continue marching and don't want to deal with public order just yet". Another reason why I like vassals is my inability to focus on too many provinces at once. I mostly think centralized, with each settlement having a specific purpose, and at a certain point, I just don't feel like tending to the newly gained ones, since they mostly won't even become useful before the game ends. The answer? Once again - vassals! They can keep the unimportant towns, tend to them, use them to raise an army to conquer or defend in my name, and in the process they can give me some of their income and trade with me! What's not to love? Therefore, my usual go to strategy is building a core empire of strong key settlements with the use of vassals mostly as temporary buffers. Then, when you trigger realm divide and everyone decides to hate you - you can unleash conquering sprees liberating clans along the way that stay loyal and occasionally help you with the war effort. So what if one or two betray you. Often your other vassals solve the issue before you even have chance to put them in their place. The map however feels alive, you still have politics to worry about, you are STILL unifying Japan as a glorious Shogun to whom everyone bows, you're just not comitting cultural genocide but instead keeping alive the clans you like and respect. Re-emerging factions to me are one of the main reasons I actually enjoy late game in Shogun 2. The only thing I really miss is AI doing the same, occasionally. The vassal functionality is in the game and two clans start with vassals, but no clan ever makes one again. It's a shame, in my opinion. I believe it would sometimes benefit them strategically aswell, and it could generally keep the game more dynamic throughout. Should there ever be a mod which lets the AI make vassals, my Shogun 2 experience would be complete. ... also one where you can actually order your vassals around, but that's probably impossible anyway, so it's just wishful thinking. Anyway, vassals rule, despite their unpredictability, which has actually become endearing to me (if they die, it's a shame, but it's not like it was YOUR settlement, and if they attack you, it's not like they're a major power), and I think not using them robs your playthrough off a lot of fun.
Thank you for filling in the gaps I forgot to mention! Yes, kicking AI armies out of provinces is so rewarding, and definitely once you become Shogun vassals are a viable option. There is a mod for Vassals in Shogun 2 on the steam workshop called "Diplomacy tweaks for Shogun 2 vanilla" it works wonders with them. I used it in my Oda Vassal only campaign that I have a livesteam of. try it out for yourself! Also yeah giving them chances to expand, I should've tested that more, truly great info to remember. Gift-giving indeed, I failed to mention that too LOL definitely is helpful, I find on the harder difficulties though its rarely an option until like you said later. Really well said though thank you for the comment :)
@@TripleZHacker Thank you! Yeah, I'm using quite a mod list nowadays myself, but a mod which makes the AI use the vassal option and liberate clans I have yet to find, sadly. Diplomacy tweaks is great but AFAIK this is sadly something it does not do. It's a shame, since Rome and Medieval 2 both had the AI use the "client kingdom" option (but in those games it's conversely infinitely harder for the player to do so). Oh well, maybe some day, or the liberating is simply forever left to us.
I have been told Vassals are "fixed" in latest TW games (WH3, maybe Troy and 3K) where they no longer drag you into wars nearly as often (bc AI will now also consider a faction's patron when choosing whether to attack) and makes them more loyal in general (mostly just bc diplomacy modifiers like vassal/ally/trading no longer dacay over time; you also get to set military targets for your allies/vassals. on the flipside of this the vassals don't feel like individuals to nearly the same degree in those newer games; if a faction sees no benefit in being your vassal it should absolutely try to break free, and if it is only your vassal because you forced it to be it makes seense they aren't happy to do things like join your wars; it's a hard system to do right. (also you need to play new TW games to get the neww system and those really don't stand up to Shogun 2 gameplay wise)
vassals actually do things in your game? crazy. They just turtle in their one province for eternity in all my Sengoku games. Although, towards the VERY end of my Saga fots campaign, the Chosu came in clutch conquering a few pronvinces towards the end. And I had another vassal who seemed like they would do great things but conquered one province and left me to rot. I've only played a handful or two of campaigns and that's the only one where I can recall vassals doing anything other than staying in their one province.
The vassals situation, for the same reason that "The Dawn of Samurai" campaign is so stressful and I do not like it, is because in a game where you have to conquer everybody else, while your armies are spread and attacking/expanding outwards, having that variable right next to your vulnerable, undefended cities inwards is a disaster. It's just way better to occupy the cities and if you have vassals, to just conquer them or let somebody else do it and save yourself the trouble.
Aw dang I was wondering what the situation was in other games that took place during the Sengoku Jidai. I should look into Nobunaga’s ambition and see what it’s like there too.
@@Takeda_Katsuyori Both aren't the same type of games. Total war is more into real time tactics combat while the Ambition series is more into statecraft and diplomacy
I usually have vassal after Realms Divide. Cause when you have vassal before the Shogun considered you as Country's enemy, the moment you become one, there a high chances they'll backstab you. Also, from my experience, vassal territory is also affecting your clan fame. I once got realms divide as Shimazu after my Vassal(Mori) basically seize the Chūgoku region and almost half of Kansai region(they basically infront of Shogun's gate), While i'm just done doing my conquest of Shikoku, when the realms divide hit me, guess what happened? They join the Shogun's Side. Making me, to face them first before going to Kyoto. After that, i never again took a Vassal before the realms divide hit me.
Yep provinces owned by Vassals cost 4 fame each, and definitely pre realm divide is tough, depends on the situation and how long you plan to keep them around.
They're more helpful in Rise of the Samurai; you can even win the game in short campaign without losing all your vassals and ally's post realm divide if you're quick enough and play your cards right.
Great video, TZH! Vassals are perhaps my biggest pet peeve in any TW, as they are so disloyal and have basically no incentive/restrictions to make them remain a vassal.
@@TripleZHacker I feel like the system in Rome 2 (specifically for a satrapy and not a client state) is very reliable since in my experience, the satrapy follows you into or out of war as long as their loyalty stays friendly or very friendly (or if they like you more than the target). This friendliness is easy to obtain since there are plenty of actions (especially executing enemy captives) you can do to make them friendly and overcome even the highest expansion penalties (they also don't add to your expansionist penalty while counting as your land). If you want peace, then the satrapy will make peace too if your negotiation is successful. On top of that, they can be told which place/force to attack with the diplomacy menu. They really do give off the feel of a faction under your boot.
i remember a episode for kings and generals where the IRl clan Tokugawa was being attacked by someone( i forgot who) and directly wrote to his then master the Oda, that "if u dont come to my aid right now, ill switch side!). boi doesn't mince words
I've noticed that vassals with the 'Dependable' diplomatic trait are much better than others, almost never betraying you, whereas 'Treacherous' - like the Hattori, will do so at the very first opportunity. Additionally, I'm not positive, but I believe that if vassals conquer land, it doesn't count towards your realm divide, so if you have a vassal who wants to conquer (i.e. they don't have the 'Defensive' trait), you could theoretically use them to expand by proxy. I'm not positive, but I think that the game determines what units to give you from forced vassalage based on what buildings the vassal has constructed - if they have a yari dojo, Oda gets their long yari for example. I haven't played in a minute, but it was either AI clans with 'Peaceful' or 'Defensive' that I thought were basically useless, because they wouldn't generate an army to defend themselves, and hence get attacked constantly by neighboring clans. Personally, I use them as the video above suggests at vital chokepoints, but also for that honor. Since honor confers +1 public order per level above 4, it can be quite nice in offsetting public order problems especially at higher difficulties.
You forgot that you can also gain a vassal through clan resurrection by taking a territory another clan has already conquered that is the home province of a formerly destroyed clan. You get the option to resurrect the formerly destroyed clan which gives you the "Past Grievances" diplo debuff (for some reason, even if you were never at war with that clan earlier in the game, which sucks) but I think it might be lower or the resurrection bonus for bringing the clan back is higher, as they usually start out more neutral, rather than hostile in this method. This is actually really potentially beneficial in my opinion because I've won a few campaigns by using mid-late game resurrection vassals as you said, as buffer states, but I do it post-Realm Divide to remove the maluses so they last a lot longer. Basically, the best long term strategy I've found for any Shogun 2 campaign is to naturally try and focus on shoring up one side of Japan first. It's harder to do with the central clans like Oda or Tokugawa, who usually need to blitz for the center instead, but most of the clans in the game should focus on either the north toward Hokkaido or the South toward Kyushu. Once that side is more fully shored up and you don't have a rear which can be be easily snuck up on, you move toward the center of Japan in the mid-game, to establish a foothold territory there, near Kyoto and before Realm divide hits. By this point, usually one clan or another has gobbled up central Japan, and another clan has gobbled up most of the other side of Japan that you aren't on. I often end up making an early military alliance on "my" side of Japan too in order to free up pressure while I build up my "rear" territory. Once near realm divide due to fame accumulation, I often let some time pass to build up forces for a final push, but also to create the proper political situation for the end game. Which means forming a military alliance with larger clan on the opposite side of Japan against whomever has gobbled up the center of Japan near Kyoto (which in my last game as the Chosokabe was an alliance the Takeda on the opposite side against the central Hattori, but I've had Oda and other minor clans be this central power before in other games, and in a Date game I've had my opposite end ally be the Mori or whoever, etc etc) and possibly with my "neighbor" clan on my side of Japan. I then punch through the center of Japan fighting this clan and almost certainly hit enough fame to trigger realm divide in the process. Only after realm divide triggers do I start to use resurrection to create vassals. And honestly usually I wait until taking Kyoto and becoming Shogun too, unless I leave that for the last major battle of the campaign. Because, as you said, if you create vassals through force after Realm Divide triggers, it will not affect the vassals because they didn't exist when the event triggered. However, Realm Divide *can* trigger twice in a game - once when hitting enough fame, and another time when taking Kyoto, so you're definitely more secure if you only make vassals after both triggers have fired. More importantly though, is vassal placement at this point. As I create a vassal wall against my usually still military ally on the opposite side of Japan so I can focus on consolidating central Japan (and often the rest of my side of Japan if I kept a neighbor clan alive as an ally for most of the game) in the turns before the opposite side power clan will inevitably betray me. By a vassal wall, I mean several vassal clans all next to each other, but between my territories and the opposite side power of Japan. Aside from giving me new trade partners, the relations between the allied but soon to be enemy clan on the opposite side of Japan will be good with the vassals in the vassal wall, so it will take some time for them to declare war on them due to diplomacy buffs built up between them, even as it goes negative against my own. Secondly, the vassal wall, as opposed to just one isolated vassal in a strategic chokepoint, creates a force multiplier against the opposite side ally-to-become-enemy when it does become time to declare war against them. Because the vassals, all being under your clan, can all pass through each other's territory, and the ones furthest from the opposite side enemy clan will move toward them rather safely, usually catching up with the vassals bordering the opposite side power and joining in allied battles against them basically by accident. Using this vassal wall method toward the end game, I've been able to successfully get vassals to behave quite a bit more sensibly and even had them sort of coordinate attacks and take territory from the opposite side major power multiple times. In my last Chosokabe campaign, I finished off the Hattori in the center while resurrecting the Saito, Oda, and Tokugawa clans against a dominant northern Takeda clan. While finishing up my neighbor ally the Mori (strategically bribing the Mori to break their alliance with the Takeda on the turn I declared war on them so the Takeda wouldn't get a diplo penalty for me declaring war on the Mori) the Takeda eventually declared on me, and with no other potential enemies in either the center or on my southern side of Japan, all my vassals could really only go in the same direction against the Takeda - North. Because they were all headed in the same direction, they actually defeated several Takeda armies and took territories. And because they took Takeda territories they actually pushed me over the territory limit needed to win, with me only having to fight a rather small number of battles against the Takeda at all. I've done this a few times now, and frankly, I think it's the overall strategy to win the campaign on any difficulty, and with 75% of the clans in the game. Like I said, it's not really feasible for the Oda, Hattori, or Tokugawa, since they're all so central that it makes more sense to claim the center first than head to one side (though you *can* do that I suppose) but it's worked every time I've done it, mostly due to the fact that it's the only real way to coordinate the AI to fight on your behalf in something resembling a sensible strategy.
Vassal is useful after RD, AND capturing Kyoto. Diplomatic penalty due to the RD occurs 1)RD trigger 2)Capturing Kyoto trigger. If you captured Kyoto before RD, that is also considered as RD. and after then Vassals will not suffer diplomatic penalties. Since you cannot have enough koku for developing every provinces nor not worth at all, some provinces it is very helpful to vassalize and get trade, military access, and little cash for making them join war for me! (If you have some sons that is even better so hostage gives extra money as well as diplomatic huge plus!)
Something interesting I found out after awhile is that after the Realm Divide event, if your alliances and vassalages are strengthened by the bond of political marriage, it would take the AI a much longer amount of time before they would ever consider betraying you.
Vassals are a great way to have your own allies declare war on you. Every time I make a tiny vassal, one of my allies gets greedy and decides to onvade them, causing the "your ally has declared war on your ally" prompt. If you decline to join war, your vassal gets crushed but you lose face. If you defend your vassal, then you have free reign to go take your ex-ally's land with a just Casus Belli.
Dosan did well by me when I made him vassal. I parked a small army in Mino to help at first, then he just went ham north I secured around Kyoto. Once realm divide occurred he took out my biggest foe in the Hojo, I was well established with armies in his provinces before He finally betrayed me at that point Dosan and Nobunaga had died; so I had no problems crushing them mightily.
Vassals are absolutely NOT worthless. Some clans can be very useful depending on their temperament. And vassals do not necessarily betray you all the time. I've had multiple runs where I won a game with at least 1 vassal. My most memorable experiences were playing Tokugawa (VH) with an Imagawa vassal, and playing Uesugi (VH) with a Date vassal. Both times I kept my vassals on indifferent at the very end with plenty of money to spare to keep them loyal. The most important factors to keep them are the clan's personality and their assets in comparison to your's. If you can understand and take advantage of both, it makes for a fun run :)
Vassals are great to boost Daimyō honour. I think having a single 1 province vassal in the early to mid game is amazing for that. Especially in FoTS, where modernisation is such a core mechanic, and honour impacts hapiness.
If you're playing an extremely aggressive game and looting after conquests (up to -3 honour penalty), vassals are great for balancing out your honour (+3 honour bonus).
I once made a vassal just west of osaka to act as a buffer state after a long war. Coming from the west, this position gave me a good defensive position when I didn't have much funds to hire more units to defend it. Thinking the vassal will raise the troops. I end turn and everyone and their mother declares war on them. People I had been very friendly with. After a couple stunning victories in their defence I watch their army not once, not twice, but 3 times march out of their castle, into enemy land, and get immediately stack wiped. After the third time I just sat back and watched them get seiged down
I dont know, even if they will betray me I still make vassals. Especially vassalazing imperialist Edo with Aizu and becoming the shogun vanguard felt nice. Since both clans will have a similiar banner it felt as if it was my child :)
I would advise against making vassals before becoming shogun as their lands count towards realm divide and since your daimyo’s honour counts towards realm divide, too, making vassals increases your prestige a lot.
I only set up vassals to A, create buffer states. And B, save the manpower required to garrison and occupy newly taken provinces. This turned out to be a mistake. Because even friendly factions would attack them anyway.
I remember the first time I played as Shimazu, I Vassalized the original enemy at the start and they sucked me into four wars, became larger than my clan, and then declared war on me.
@@TripleZHacker sure yeah but mods can only take ya so far especially if you're an online player which I am. Remaster not only improves the graphics but tweak the game balance a little where needed like some OP units and mechanics being toned down as well as the revival of the game's playerbase
My one experience with vassals, I had established three in western japan then moved on the capital and they immediately betrayed me. So I sacked there cities.
Well, i found out that if you "liberated" a clan they Will be much more loyal even the major clan. Let's say the Mori had been annexed by neighboring clan, and i captured Aki (town for mori) and set up Mori as Vassal, but if you fight mori, take Aki and set up Vassal, they Will show hostility
The only vassals worth having are the peaceful and maybe the defensive ones, afaik they don't have a desire to expand, they just keep to their province doing nothing and so have no need to stab you in the back. I vassalized the Sagara clan early during an Otomo playthrough and despite the religious differences between the clans, their province being landlocked by mine and their population being a different religion from the clan because of the neighbouring influence, I haven't heard a peep out of them in about 170 turns.
I converted my Shimazu clan to Christian and made lot of Vassal. It's good to improve relation to other clans and help a bit in maintaining public order because each clan that I made vassal of it increased honor by 1
If i have too many troops in another spot and i dont want to extend my armies or wallet to keep a newly conquered town, you best to believe that vassal help my administration, but yeah even then they can be annoying at times, but still better than outright taking every province and having to leave a small force just to avoid a rebellion
The best vassalage experience is in Rise of the Samurai campaign. After winning the campaign, release clans and vassalize. Then; eternal warfare and unlimited vassalazition. Those army & navy exp need to go up
Vassals are sometimes useless. Especially depending on said clan. Playing as Oda of Owari alot, my goals are to maintain a strong positon around Owari and taking the neighboring provinces and attacking north and east. Then stalemating with Hojo and Takeda. Thats because I wanna conquer the north and go along the coast and conquer the islands and trade nodes. Before attacking and surrounding Kyoto because the Shogunate they never move their armies from Kyoto hence free experience leveling from their army when you battle them. But also Takeda and Hojo can defend the Eastern Flank. I'll always position my most veteran troops bordering the Takeda and Hojo incase of Betrayal and the Maxium meter of me being the enemy of all. Total war has always been lacking in some aspects but mostly in diplomancy and the lack of having your vassals or allies to do anything. And playing as Oda its easy to get money due to cheap units early game, hence you can bribe the enemies into peace, breaking relationships, trades, etc.
I know it’s been awhile since your last post, but show some love to the ship warfare lovers out there? I know Mori and Otomo, maybe possibly shimazu. Different ships, their functions, clan perks, different special abilities, night battle, fire, moral, etc 🙂
Vassals can be useful but have to be careful. First thing is you gotta know the clan's temperament, An aggressive takeda behaves very differently from a passive Ogigayatsu. Once realm divided occurs, all the vassals gradually gain negative opinion and might eventually betray you unless you can wrangle them with marriage etc. I sometimes vassalize clans like Takeda as Uesugi once I have pushed them to just South Shinano and basically use them as a guard dog that mess around in the center while my forces consolidate northern japan.
The way I see it in Shogun 2 at least. Vassals are very helpful, but can be tricky to maintain. And you have to keep on being above their power to have them not declare war on you. However, the realm divided will always force all your vassals to go to war against you. So they are still useful, but as said can be tricky to keep under control.
Personally, I use vassels in the biginning of the game to gain the 3 houner and I would put them in the edges of my territory expention to be a shield from other enemies, I don't mind others attack them because they will attack me anyway if I was there so there is not much difference. So what will happen is the 3 vassels I take will die and I am in war with the clan that killed them, that's fine because now they are gone they can't betray me, I gained the benifits from them (+3 houner) and I was prepared for the enemy army thanks for my vassel buying me time. After this point I don't need any vassels at all in the whole game even after ralm devide and after becoming shogun.
Yeah that’s one of the best ways to handle them honestly, as having them on the frontiers means their betrayal isn’t the worst since it’s just as if another clan just invaded you.
Giving your vassals lots of money seems to help because it makes them friendly and helps them build up. Vassals also increase honour less than taking a province yourself
Difficulties affect vassals income as well anyways meaning they can have the shittest of land and have one province and still be able to have one full stack army without needing money from the player. You're better off using the money to make an army to support your vassal in its campaigns since they wreck house once they start having a couple of provinces
In 1212 Attila I always make new vassals so I can take like three elite units every turn, and effectively increase my total army sizes by one-third of my countries maximum each time, with buffer states and tributes. If their culture and leader are compatible they almost never rebelled. This is with mods though so yeah.
I doubt it will be made for quite some time but a more intricate diplomatic system would be a welcomed change, even though I do like aspects of shogun 2’s diplomacy.
I’d really like getting a way of controlling vassals and making them a companion. Like multiplayer coop without needing to feed them 1k per turn after realm divide
i established a total of about 8 vassals immediately before the realm divide and after becoming shogun, every single one betrayed me after several turns, regardless of their relations with me; normally, you would think that they would be thankful after liberating them from their original conquerors and being loyal to the new shogun but, no...
Hmm yeah it’s unfortunate, I think you should try establishing them after you become shogun instead of before if you want them to potentially be more loyal. It’s a bad diplomatic mechanic for sure :/
The only time I create vassals is if I have a war on two fronts and one side offer peace and accept vassalisaion. Just so I can deal with the bigger threat. Or I've won a major battle capturing a settlement and there are enemy armies near by and I restore a clan to act as a buffer to buy my army time to replenish. The relm divide makes them turn on you anyway. And this seems like a dumb thing to moan about but I hate it that I can devastate a enemy force they have nothing left but one settlement that im laying siege to i offer them vassalisaion and I want a hostage and they always refuse. Even though in reality that's the exact reason for hostages to be taken. I had a marriage through a vassal they where married to my heir super early on and they still betry me like why your grandchildren will inherit the clan.
I only create vassals so they can backstab me xD I want to max out my honor as early as possible so I take some vassals at positions which don´t hurt me if they attack me. Then I´m waiting for them to betray me. And attack them again and now take their land.
Im using cracked shogun 2 and cheat engine for the money. Created many vassal before reaching kyoto and spend money for them. When realm divided happen, i have so many siege at entire province i own that already stacked with 5 Bow Samurai , 5 matchlock samurai 1 cav and the rest infantry + another stack outside city with same composition I just love war in the shogun 2 and don't really like grinding :3
You get more profit if you own the province even Three kingdoms Kong Rong mechanic is really dumb when you became king majority of your treaty and trade will turn to ashes
Here's a little trick I learned: the diplomacy negative only factors when Realm Divide hits, not after so basically any Vassal you make AFTER Realm Divide has already been triggered has no negative diplomatic effect in relations. So you can conquer a province, resurrect a wiped out clan and make them your vassal and they will not betray you.
I tried and seek Kyoto before Realm divid couple times and became shogun before real divide. (Could only do it in hard mode, failed every time doing it in legendary) But real divid as a negative diplomatic factor still kicks in and remains for some reason.
When you tried to be the honorable diamyo maintaining your bushido code to find out, its better to destroy everything and make money, and AI can't feel pain... yet until then I have no remorse just don't kill me when robots become sentient
Vassals are great for 1 main reason to close of a direction on the map from potential or literal enemies. Why take a province if you will open up an additional front? The money & other things are nice but a cherry on the cake really Vassals will always betray you but they take time to build up an army. Time is everything in warfare. Consider your options would making a vassle gain you time & allow you concentrate force? If not then don't take the vassal unless early game you really want that free Yari ahigari which is nice.
I mean they aren’t worthless when I’m sick of fighting a faction and they’ve effectively placed a huge army in their main city that I don’t want to deal with. It’s not that I think they’ll be super useful, it’s just that I’m lazy and there’s bigger fish to fry.
Once i tried to have a game with some vassals just to see what will happen later,and.....they betrayed me after the realm divide,what a pain i need to send some of my army to crush them
why did they even introduce the possibility of having allies when the pinnacle of the game is an event that makes everyone hate you , even your damn vassals , 20000000 iq move right there lol
@@TripleZHacker its even worse when you consider that when playing on normal generaly speaking the ai isnt a shithead that will backstab (((speaking from experience)))
Well, although it's pretty crappy how they did it, but in the Sengoku Jidai it was a major thing for officers or vassals to betray their lord to seize power over Japan to end the conflict, be extremely renowned, have a lasting dynasty that would bring peace to Japan. You have instances such as Akechi Mitsuhide betraying Oda Nobunaga, Hashiba Hedeyoshi taking power away from the Oda clan after avenging Nobunagas death and crushing Shibata Katsuie in the process, Tokugawa Ieyasu doing the same thing after Hedeyoshis death and causing the events that lead up to Sekigahara and the Osaka Campaign. And many more I forgot, but you get the point, I may have spelled some names wrong but hopefully it's not too bad.
Honestly i never vassalised the Oda, Imagawa, Tokugawa and Hojo clans... Those 6 regions are just to good not to keep!!! (ok, seven if i play with either Hojo, Oda or Takeda. The initial enemies must die... or vassalise :D) 4 ports for trade, fertile and average soiled region besides the one WITH A GOLD MINE, a region with magistrade so that you can pump out level 3 metsuke and fish for one with the initial trait that buffs his... huh... buff for settlements... so more public order and income on five out of those six regions. Also a region with a smith to recruit mellee infantry. Just a great core empire colection. And both Oda initial region and the region with the smithy are great border regions to defend. Those two and the one with the magistrat are the only ones I upgrade the castle over tier 2 for the second layer for defensive sieges. About the vassals... other than buffer zones turned on the further corner of Japan, i dont really use them, mostly because they tend to be a magnet for wars... HELL, IN NORMAL I HAD A VASSAL DECLARING WAR ON ANOTHER VASSAL!!! I was playing shimazu and i was sick of the invations of both Mori and Chosokabe... turn both of them into vassals and some turns later BOOM they fucking declred war on each other... When im going on a full out expantion time, after realm divide, i prefer to have the region rebel over having it be a power that can betray and conquer.
I never have vassals in S2. They going become a handicap in the future than they help. I rather do thing myself anyway P/s: what your opinion about Fourstrider mod?
I haven’t played the mod yet but I’ll check it out. I have used the four strider portraits before and I love those perhaps I’ll cover the mod in a video!
What about vassalization through the reviving of a dead clan? E.g., when you are at war with a clan that killed another, and retake the home province of the destroyed clan and vassalize it to recreate the clan?
Yes, I failed to mention it, but it is essentially the same method as vassalization by force, or through war, it's the same process just with a slight variation on the outcome.
those fucking vassals, finally almost won a game of shogun 2 but each time id take the final province for victory conditions a vassal would rebel or take a settlement from me and I just kept taking land each turn to win and they kept rebelling and taking from me, after 10 turns of this I just gave up on the campaign since I was running out of turns for the short campaign. If I had more turns I might of been able to just kill everyone eventually.
Yeah vassals sadly are like that, I think it’s the past grievances modifier and the fact that if you are not shogun they often declare war but you had quite a lot so that might’ve also been a problem. Again diplomacy isn’t the total war’s go to for sure
Hey triplezhacker just wanted to ask a question: Are overhaul mods like master of strategy and ultimate immersive mod for shogun 2 multiplayer campaign compatible? Been having trouble starting multiplayer campaign with these mods. If they aren't, are there any overhaul mods like those that are multiplayer campaign compatible.
Yes they should be. But check the mod page because they should say whether they are or not. You just need to make sure that you and the person you play with have the mods. Additionally you need to select the same mods in order. So as an example- You select: Mods: 1-2-4-5-6 (on your list of mods when you first load the game) The person who is playing with you must select in that same order of the mods on the list. 1-2-4-5-6. Even if you have the same mods all selected if they are out of order then it won’t work. Additionally you need to make sure mods are comparable with one another if they are not the game will crash. Hope that helps :)
Total War Warhammer 2 player here. It sounds like the diplomacy problems everyone complains about were always there. I am beginning to see why CA decided to scale back diplomacy. Even with the extra options in Shogun 2 it really still leads to the same end result.
This video could've been 20 seconds long: "Yes, vassals are worthless. They barely create any units, 3 different AI's declare war on them every turn forcing you to either go to war to protect them or take a big hit to your honour, they'll NEVER be able to win a war on their own and their land would be far more useful to you if you owned it rather than them."
Shogun 2 allies and vassal are freaking useless. So much for samurai honor. Speaking of which, I only vassalize factions to build daimyo honor, and even then it's questionable. Your ally will happily attack your vassal if they perceive them as weak (which is almost guaranteed), meaning all the sudden you have to fight your close ally. I wish it was like Warhammer 3 where they can only directly declare war on the overlord.
In a christian playthrough, you want to get a couple of vassals because you get 1 honor for your daimyo each time you make one, especially when you don't get a retainer for him that increases his honor.
play fall of the samurai be republic turn 200 liberate a town and make vassal turn 201 vassal declares war take back town and make it vassal again turn 202 vassal declares war again the independent republic experience
Do vassals have no negative Realm Divide penalties when you create them after Realm Divide or when you're Shogun? Because I made a vassal during Realm Divide to act as a buffer while I moved towards Kyoto as the Shimazu and I had to keep feeding them money so their relationship wouldn't go down, because they were still being affected by Realm Divide.
It is after becoming Shogun that they will not receive the Realm Divide penalty (unless in the unusual situation that they were an active clan at the time Realm Divide was triggered).
Clans you vassalize after realm divide wont have the diplomatic debuff that comes with it, so they'll be less likely to betray Edit: thats just my experience playing on normal and lower. I dunno if its stays true in higher difficulties
@@gpandamic7995 well, considering I vassalised someone after Realm Divide and they got the Realm Divide scaling penalty, I'm guessing you only won't get it if you're Shogun. This was on Normal, too, and I created the vassal, the faction didn't exist previously.
@@SiniusAZM I booted up an older Tokugawa campaign specifically because of this vid, where I was in RD, and took 6 vassals whole playing. I wasn't Shogun, all of them were conquered by different clans beforehand, and all of them didn't have the penalty when they were brought back Idk maybe it's a mod I run
Shogun 2 players going online to tell their frustration about vassals backstabbing them is kind of amusing to see as a Crusader Kings 2 player who basically lure vassals to backstab me so I can have a reason to kill them off
Yeah sending gifts can help to some degree but other factors need to be considered. I believe there's only a certain extend of positive relation the gift gives at max. So, keep that in mind!
im currently trying to beat the game on legendary and i discovered some good use for vassals. in my takeda campaign tries i realized i dont really want north shinano. Its kinda worthless province bordering on 4 more provinces of which the owners all want to declare war on you. I had success besieging it and force a peace making them a vassal and demanding huge sums of money. I got like 8k in addition to a trade partner and more honor. And with the money i could fuel my plans to take the more valuable and defendable hojo provinces. Another use i discovered is for getting trade income after realm divide. In my current otomo campaign i made 3 vassals and they net me about 3.5k trade income. They also stay mostly loyal and i managed to maintain good relationships with them. Overall i started appreciate diplomacy in shogun 2. Its a very military oriented game and you have to push through your interest with force. If you are not interested with war with someone because their provinces are not beneficial for you it might be better to just make a good peace deal instead of annexing difficult provinces after beating them.
