The fallen primarchs can never not be warp entites, that time is long past. Morty, and Magnus are the most "redeemable". Pert, is frankly chaos unaligned and does what he likes. And the rest pretty set (angron hated daddy before chaos was on the scene proper). I think its interesting to think what redemption would entail. As said, they'll always be warp entites - daemons if you prefer, but perhaps clensed of the patron gods corruption, and becoming more true to themselves, independent in action, free. Thats not to say alined with the imperium, just not alined with the ruinous powers.
Though, I get your point. I remember 20 odd years ago, thinking how cool it would be to have the option of having a single custodian champion (imagine a whole army - so cool), then they brought a whole army out, and imo kinda sells them short.
The thing is I feel the emperium should get fractured into many empire under the surviving primarch only united by faith Then you could have alliance and betrayal. Like angron and lorgar (who should be the warmaster) hate the imperium but wouldn't care that much about a khan empire. And khan being himself just would not start a fight when he has other people's to deal with So not really alliance but cold war and this going on and on amongst other primarch Like lion hating the khan for having another empire but guilliman seeing that it's easier to all take a piece of the pie and spread the difficulty amongst them.
and this doesn't even cover that they are asking for the faction leader and flagship model of a chaos faction to be ripped out and given to the imperium. if i asked for gulliman to be given to black legion it would be unreasonable but if its mortarion or angron its different? massive imperium bias showing threw when ever i see a "magnus can be redeemed" take or something.
Asking the traitor primarchs to be "redeemed" is also ignoring the very reality that none of them would even want that due to the very real grievances they have with thier fascist authoritarian "father"
Tbf I’d love to see Magnus and lorgar at least make an attempt at reconciliation with their brothers as they didn’t do it out of hate for them , and if we’re being honest lorgar and definitely Angron has justified reasons to absolutely hate the emperor. You can’t be an atheist in Warhammer the chaos Gods exist wether the emperor liked it or not, should have encouraged Lorgar
Yea they did kinda do it to themselves…besides chaos corruption runs so deep that it would be probably physically impossible to mend or heal aside from setting them free from their lives
To be honest, I might have found Horus to be the better option if it had been a straight-up rebellion in a galaxy where Chaos didn't exist. Yea, humanity being united again and driving back Old Night is pretty good, but how many wanted to live in a truly godless galaxy under the eternal dominion of the expert of experts? Granted many of the primarchs were no better. For instance, I do pity Fulgrim's fall in the sense that he could never have guessed what was going on until it was too late, but that didn't change the fact he had a lot of issues with his ego and the more insane stunts he pulled even before finding the Lare Blade out of competition with his brothers. Then again, it's debatable he, Magnus, or even Horus would ever have rebelled if it wasn't for Chaos' influence, but that's neither here nor there. All that said, as in real life, you have to pick what seems best out of a series of imperfect options, and I'd honestly take someone like Horus in his original state over the Emperor if only because I could see him saying "I could be wrong" from time to time. Sadly, this is 40k. Chaos does exist in this setting, and it manipulated and twisted these guys into parodies of everything they ever were, in no small part because they never had the information we do about it all until after they had all fallen.
The only problem i have with the Deamon Primarchs is how their transformations where instant case in point Angron, he was dying and using a ritual he became a Deamon Primarch, when usually you need to comit countless atrocitys to become the equivalente of a mortal Deamon Primarch a Deamon prince, and when that happend you soul is tainted beyond repair you are a Deamon, so much so they have the same rule as a normal Deamon where when you kill them their soul just go to the warp, as much as any Deamon prince, Deamon Primarchs are beyond redemption and even Traitor Primarchs that have not turn to deamons usually have a character trait that is so flawed i can´t really see them becoming anything else other than what they became, the end was inevitable, and going back becomes impossible
To some extent true, but you forget the results of the Great Crusade. Do you think the Primarchs didn’t commit mass slaughter or varying kind? Hell, even the loyal Primarchs lead from the front, so even they have at least 1 body per planet conquered by them at least. And the gods aren’t that picky with their victims, just that there is and they reflect the aspect that they are.
I don't know why the traitor primarchs (with the exception of Angron because of muh Nails) are so.. romanticized. Horus' Ego led him to betray the Emperor after Magnus warned him & was stupid enough to confuse the Emperor's trust with Distrust. Mortarion is a Stupid Hypocrite. Fulgrim was stupid Enough to grab the Slaaneshi Sword after seeing the most degen species worship it like Crazy. Perturabo goes ape mode when he doesn't get his work recognized when he's more recognized than the average guardsman. Lorgar had a self-fulfilling prophecy that he ended up ditching only after the Emperor burned down Monarchia Magnus did everything Wrong. Alpharius & Omegon get ALSO an exception because of their cool heraldry & "This is a lie" Shenanigans.
@obunginator974 the thing with Peter turbo, incel extraordinare, is that in his books it becomes very clear that he does not want to be a warmongers general. His whole thing was wanting to be an architect/inventor. So, when time after time he gets pushed aside for the very real building projects and things he makes, only to get a pat on the back for his "actually useful" creations, shit hurts. People joke that he doesn't like dorn but like dorn is practically a robot. Man just does what he's told. So when emps needs someone to build his palace, rather than going to the very enthusiastic artistic architect, he essentially gets the equivalent of chatgpt to make it for him. I 100% understand peturabos hatred of not only emps that blew him off and belittled his works, but for dorn especially for essentially taking everything from him, without even the curtesy of being spiteful or rude about it
A lot of it comes down to how some who fell to flaws they had little-to-no control over, with the two most prominant arguably being Konrad and Angron, with the former tormented by visions of the future he thought were set in stone while also trying to reign in a criminal planet with his only groundwork of morality being law with no concept of grace to balance it out and no one to raise him. Angron got the same treatment but with a lobotomy and the loss of his friends as the emperor left them to die to make it worse. As others have noted, Mortarion also stands out given that despite his flaws and the fact that he was a jackass, he also fell to save his sons. No one knows what's going on with Alpharius, so we'll leave that be. Magnus was manipulated so that while yes, his fall was do to a series of conscious choices, they were choices that were done with the intention of saving his brother, his father and the imperium, though the methods blew up in his face due to his hubris and misunderstanding of the warp and Tzeentch. Further, like Mortarion (and I just realize why GW had the latter duel the Khan on Prospero) accepted Tzeentch's offer and his chains in order to save his legion Fulgrim was possessed and corrupted by a literal demon, with some (including myself) wondering if he ever left that painting. Call me crazy, but given the Emperor's "Imperial Truth" would have taught him not to believe those things even existed, I don't think we can blame him for that one. Perturabo may be "recognized more than the average guardsman," but that's not the field he was playing in. He was trying to compete with his brothers both for prestige while being sidelined for the worst kind of work and warfare for decades and centuries, having all his architectural, engineering, and artistic skill left unused while he pounded away at fortress after fortress. I like him least out of all of the traitor primarchs, but even I can admit he had a decent reason to be mad when it looked like this would be his entire life. Even then, he didn't break till he thought he could get the missing primarch treatment for how he handled a rebellion on his home planet. Lorgar...I like him but sometimes he's more confusing than Alpharius, if only because I don't know if he initially went into the eye searching for gods because he wanted to "find the truth" or because he needed the emperor to be wrong. That said, like Perturabo, he had a legitimate complaint that he spent a *century* building up a religion in the Emperor's name only to be humiliated, rejected and watch the city he built burned to the ground in the name of an iconoclastic ideal the Emperor himself knew to be false. Finally, Horus. Now in this case, I'll admit there's a bit of speculation going on here, but it's built on hints that GW themselves have dropped. My guess is a lot of his anger at not seeing a statue of himself and the traitor primarchs in Erebus' vision came in no small part due to the fate of the missing Primarchs...the same two whose names he tried to save only to be psychically strangled by Malcador when Horus tried to simply say one of their names. The implication being that in the vision, he likely concluded the Emperor and Malcador had done away with him and half his brothers, and had their names removed. Now call me the second coming of Benedict Arnold if you will, but even the suggestion that the same could happen to me and my family would have me questioning my loyalties, especially if the suggestion was that those who had done it before *could* do it again, and I still had trouble breathing from the last time they did it. Yea, Erebus may have been outed as a liar by Magnus, but I suspect the mere suggestion that he could fail and face the same fate as his brothers was what sent him over the edge...with the Chaos deitites magnifying his worst traits to keep him on their side once the corruption had set in. This is why a lot of people, tabletop aside, would like to see the traitor primarchs redeemed. Few of them ever joined Chaos willingly and most were either manipulated or outright forced into its service while others were destroyed by traits they had no control over. The least redeemable is probably Lorgar given he actively chose all of this...and if the Aeldari duping Alpharius thing is true, then I guess him too for Darwinian reasons.
Nah. I think the ones who didn’t have a choice should be saved. Or tried to Like Mortarion. He did it solely to save his sons Perturabo. To save his own life that had been wasted by the Emperor And Magnus. That’s about it
@@AndyAttrition Angron was lobotomized by nails that drove him insane. Konrad slowly went mad due to visions of the heresy coupled with a fatalism no one ever bothered to correct. Magnus was manipulated by a god the specializes in deceit, treachery, and manipulating fate. Fulgrim was literally possessed by a demon through a sword that he took in no small part because, through the Emperor's own teachings, he didn't think such things even existed. Also, as mentioned under another comment, If I wasn't immediately aware of Chaos at the start of the heresy, I probably would have preferred Horus myself, in no small part due to the alternate prospect of living under an eternal ruler who took the trouble of destroying all faiths and declaring there were no gods...while insisting he was but another human who didn't have all the answers. Say what you will about Horus, but prior to what Chaos did to him, he seemed like someone who could at least say "maybe I'm wrong" from time to time.
