Hubbard is the perfect example of how an okay male athlete suddenly becomes elite level when placed in the female category, with other examples being ones like that college sprinter who was ranked in the 3-400’s in their state as a male but is now state champion in the women’s division. Hubbard first competed against women in 2017, posting a new world record in the over 35’s senior super heavyweight category at the IWF Masters that same year with a 280kg total. 2nd place was a 158kg total. For this performance, Laurel was named the best lifter in the entire female competition (all ages and weight categories). Fast-forward to 2021 and Laurel is placed in the top 10-20 women lifters on the planet and may well end up on the podium at Tokyo due to some of the drop-outs, only out-lifted by the most elite women like Li Wenwen. Aged 42. Do you think Lu will still be able to win gold in 2028? There have now been two high-quality academic reviews of musculoskeletal changes in transwomen suppressing testosterone. Both conclude that loss of muscle mass and strength is small, and that strength advantage over females is retained. Expect more studies to reinforce that which is patently obvious to anyone that has even a cursory interest in sport or training, but which need to be done for the purpose of creating a greater body of clinical evidence. Women’s sport is a protected class for a reason - if it didn’t exist women would never win anything except perhaps obscure ultra-endurance events (which even then have such a low participation rate it’s not clear if that is the actual reason for women out-performing man itself) - men outperform women at the equivalent level by something like 10-30% depending on the sport. Winners within the same sex class are decided by single digit percentages. This is an insurmountable advantage. Humans are sexually dimorphic like all other mammals - male or female - with your biology decided in the womb as to whether you’re set-up to produce small gametes (sperm) or large gametes (eggs). Side-note, intersex/DSD individuals are not a 3rd sex, they too fall on either side of the coin depending on which specific condition they have. You can modify secondary sexual characteristics with hormones and make (irreversible) physical changes with surgery, but this isn’t Iain Bank’s Culture - your sex is your sex and is impossible to change, it’s baked in down to the cellular level. Gender or how you feel or present yourself is irrelevant: sport is segregate by biological sex for good reason, the same way we segregate adults from playing full contact sports with children. Unfortunately it’s going to have to take a woman getting her neck broken in rugby or being left brain-dead in a boxing ring for these sports bodies to stop pandering to a minority of activists who think feelings trump reality. If you want to look at this seriously Seb talk to someone like Ross Tucker (Science of Sport) or Dr. Emma Hilton the developmental biologist who was one of the authors of one of the studies mentioned.
She grew up as a man, was a male teenager, developed most of the muscle when she was a man, did most of the training when she was a man, how anyone can not see that from a muscle and skeletal development she is not a woman is beyond me. Imagine if Lasha, after totaling 500+kg identifies as a woman, goes on hormone treatment for a year and then enters a women's competition, there will be some power loss for sure, but he/she will set a record that no born woman will ever be able to attain. The good thing is that women competitors start to speak up, maybe there is still time for the IOC to fix this. Nothing against the person as an individual nor her gender identity, but from a purely sportive and competitive viewpoint, for me, this is absolutely unfair.
@@pervyboy69 Chris Moiser literally won 2 National Championships and only failed to qualify for Olympics cause of injury. Patricio Manual won a professional boxing match as a man. This comment is just plain ignorance. You really should be ashamed.
@@snoopyflick9519 Against a 0-2 loser.... Look up the fighter, it was the can of cans.... That doesn't mean shit, *he* hasn't won a belt or another fight for that matter.
@@snoopyflick9519 Moisier won two national champs in...... Wait for it...... Race walking.... Hahaha.... A sport that limits you from actually going fast. Utter bullshit and you know it.
Eoin's observation that it's mostly men talking about this topic is something I too noticed. I would be interested to see this topic revisited with women on the panel to get their perspective.
@@Derpaherpa123 do you know how many trans athletes there are? Not many. The current one isn't even close to beating the top 2 women in the world rn. Why do you think this would be a case. Cis people REGULARLY beat trans people in competitions. Maybe a lot of women who actually compete in these divisions see that?
It’s competitive sport. The fan base and interested parties are overwhelmingly men. Men should have the overwhelming say - they’re almost the entire audience (even for many female sports).
Women’s voices are not elevated by the media. The women complaining are coming runner up to the trans women who are setting records. It’s a real bad look for LGBT activists so they aren’t publicised by the left leaning media (which is most of it). Right leaning media will talk about them... but they are the minority of news outlets. Women typically are much less controversial than men on average as well and this is a controversial topic.
2016 Olympics: Winner of lightest men's weight class had the same total as the winner of the women's heaviest weight class. 307. He weighed around 56 kg and she weighed around 120. The 69 kg weight class was the only one competed by both sexes. The male winner totaled 352 kg and the women's winner totaled 261. 91 kg (200 lb) difference.
@@davestephens3246 I was pointing out the strength difference between men and women and how totally unfair it is for a transgender to be competing with females. I thought that was obvious.
@@davestephens3246 China is only allowed one entrant, and PRK has said they will not be attending. That means that on the list of those expected to compete, we have the following: 1. Li Wenwen (CHN), 335 kg; 2. Sarah Robles (USA), 290 kg; 3. Anastasiia Lysenko (UKR), 286 kg; 4. Laurel Hubbard (NZL), 285 kg; 5. Veronica Saladin (DOM), 283 kg. Hubbard could be a genuine medal threat, although her age (43) makes that significantly less likely than it would have been a few years ago. Her best recent snatch (133 kg) is little changed from her best when competing as a junior-age male--remarkable in itself--but her clean & jerk is substantially down.
The biggest argument for needing more women in the sport is the fact that I have been watching videos about a trans women athlete going to the Olympics and so far have yet to find a woman talking about it, other than being quoted off-screen.
I think another issue not many people have thought about is that Laurel Hubbard is one of the largest 87+kg weightlifters, other than li wenwen. This is gonna give her a huge advantage, but you can't start excluding people based on size and frame. She weighs something like 30kg more than Tatiana kashirina The women's divisions aren't as competitive anyway as the mens, as evidenced by the difference between average lifts of men and women being much greater than the strength difference between the two. It's a tough decision to make, especially when the jury is still out.
He would without a doubt still clean and jerk a minimum of 200kg and snatch 170. And that is on the low end if you compare it to Hubbard who lost just a few percentages of her PRs, Most likely he would completly and utterly demolish the women with a high end of 250 c&j and 200 snatch easy.
Blame the IWF and IOC not the athlete! This is a rule that they have approved and it's not her fault that she loves weightlifting. It takes so much time and effort to actually go about changing your gender. Nobody does that just to win a competition. Does she have bio advantages, yes. Should that matter, yes. Does it with the current rules, NO. Don't hate the player hate the game
Let's also not forget that being a high level athlete with hopes of Olympic glory may be a stronger source of identity than even gender. It has been shown over and over that athletes will take unbelievable long term health risks to win at any cost. This is just another avenue.
Appreciate you guys taking on this controversial topic in a logical & respectful manner. Proper scientific, research-led discourse will help us come to the right solution to this issue.
Add a new class of weightlifting: We'll have male, female, and non-drug tested non-binary. That will solve the issue of doping AND gender - two birds with one stone.
well trans men and trans women would be vastly different for one. Another, bigger problem, is that you then still have to solve the "how to define woman" problem that the IOC grapples with since the start. The only real reason transgender athletes are allowed to compete with low T rn, is because cis women showed that chromosome and genital testing doesn't work.
@@emiljorgensen5340 Don't worry, after a few more years of them indoctrinating our children through the media, entertainment and educational system, there will be.
Thank you for this considerate video, many years later this issue is still important. I have no problem with Hubbards weightlifting career. Her age of transition does not negate her current test levels and never will. The rage of idiots who know nothing about gender and sex makes me laugh and makes me cheer her on even more. Good job Laurel. Never let the bastards get you down.
@@deliciousdishes4531 you’re kidding right? Speaking against this risks harmful reaction by media outlets and financial institutions, maybe your employer too if they will buckle to scrutiny. If you get on the wrong side of political artists their playbook is to go after your income.
@@fazzolarijames there's a myriad of media outlets that are against trans athletes. Almost every time a trans woman competes in sprinting, you can read articles about how unfair it is (no matter the outcome of the race). The very article in this video has a quote about how Hubbard competing is "like a bad joke". WH and Sika Strength are their own companies. I don't know where Zac is currently employed, but I would be surprised if his hypothetical boss would fire him for this. Stop playing the victim. No matter your opinion on the topic, this is not some courageous statement. This is one a variety of people agree with and one that's very publicly viable and visible.
@@deliciousdishes4531 it’s great to hear there’s media outlets now talking against this. Thanks for letting me know. The point still stands people’s voices are silenced for speaking against the popular view - just because it doesn’t happen on every occasion doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. Are you for silencing dissenting views?
Re: final segment Lads I have a genuine idea I think to solve this Paralympics That event/organisation exists to allow those who cannot fairly compete in the actual olympics to participate in sports. Let Laurel Hubbard compete in a Trans category This gets multiple birds with one stone We can keep the women's category fair as is We can also promote the sport for transgender athletes too, adding an extra layer of "inclusivity" and support that we can market as a modernising sport Paralympics aren't for "inferior" athletes, just "different" and that is how I feel about Hubbard Granted this is >50 days out it's too little too late, but definitely something to keep in mind For this genius solution that saved our sport, I expect 1 year's worth of free coaching from Sika and/or ZT /s
13:03 The issue with this, will be biological women, transitioning to men & able to legally take HRT. Something similar happened in Texas wrestling where a high school trans male was required to compete with his biological sex (female) but was allowed to continue taking his prescription HRT (essentially being on PEDs). Easily won state multiple times.
Love all three of you, and I appreciate you addressing this topic, but maybe it would be eye-opening and more valuable to your subscribers to get opinions on this from a more diverse group? (i.e. other female athletes, trans athletes, athletes who have taken test derivatives/are familiar with them...etc). If we are going to step into the topic of diversifying the sport in a more fair way, maybe you should be collecting input from a more diversified selection of people. I think many people understand the implications of what she is doing and why it may be considered physiologically unfair, but at the end of the day she's a trans woman and she loves the sport of weightlifting. If we don't find a way to support her and other marginalized athletes like her, what kind of sportsmanship is that?
yeah this talk is very "I got my two friends on to talk about a topic we all agree on". Maybe even just having someone who thinks trans women should compete in the female division would've been good. Much better also actual female athletes, trans athletes, etc.
I don’t mean this as an attack, if allowing her to compete marginalizes other women, is it really worth it? They mentioned a coach in Australia that was very outspoken in his disagreement with her being allowed to compete, because she took a slot that one of his athletes may have been able to take. Does she not matter? If there is a proven biological advantage (which it seems like that’s kind of an accepted fact), should we marginalize biological females to make Laurel feel more welcome? Is she more important than them? Who gets to decide that? I will respect your opinion even if we disagree, I want you to know that, I don’t mean any of this as an attack, I’m just trying to see your perspective in regards to those specific questions I mentioned. I’m sure I’ll have more stuff to say after you respond, just wanted to make that clear from the start.
@@jordanwigger2380 here's the question: why does that (entirely hypothetical) woman matter more than hubbard? Why should we exclude hubbard just because someone else would feel nice if she didn't compete. I'm sure lots of people would feel great if Wenwen didn't compete either. Naim had an advantage too for being small, does that mean we shouldn't have let him compete? Biological advantage is a very shaky argument in sports, something that's all about that.
@@jordanwigger2380 I’m not claiming to have a solution here, I just think we should be open to hearing other sides of the argument. However in my opinion it does seem hypocritical for people to have an issue with what Hubbard is doing but not with things like other athletes who’ve served bans for steroid usage being allowed to compete in the olympics. Or even athletes working the qualifying system by collecting ROBI points at other less competitive weight classes and cutting/massing to an Olympic class and taking the Olympic spot. They’re all technically following the rules, which I think makes this a much bigger discussion. I’d just be curious to hear what other athletes have to say about it all.
Unfortunately weightlifting is one of the sports with the largest potential for this discussion to have a real impact on the outcome of the competition because muscle mass and strength is such an important element of the sport. And that will color the discussion and the opinions. The idea that someone would transition in order to compete is ridiculous and would never happen. The transition is its own goal and is done for its own reasons first and foremost. What happens afterward is just life. We've had wild genetic outliers in weightlifting before (pocket hercules was not built like a normal person or even a normal weightlifter); one more isn't normal, but what's not normal doesn't exactly point toward a pattern, and it doesn't need to raise a lot of concern because it's very unlikely to happen again.
I have been in a masters comp, namely World Masters Games, with Laurel, she is very kind, humble and a very decent human being. Having said that, I do not agree with her being allowed a spot at the Olympics, as always, its 'stinks from the top', blame IWF for making those rules, not the athlete.
In fairness, if there is a reason why it is inappropriate for you to compete, then you shouldn’t enter the competition. If I was a steroid user for 20 years then decided to enter a tested/natural competition after being off the cycle Lo g enough to reach normal T-levels, I’m still benefiting from two decades of enhanced biology. The spirit of fairness is important!
I just don't understand why a transgender is allowed to compete in the olympics while Caster Semenya isn't even allowed to run because she was actually born intersex. I think both shouldn't be allowed but at least she actually thought of herself as a girl from the beginning. So why would you allow one person and deny the other? That's just measuring with two measures.
Trans myself: every time I say that online i get a death threat in comments but fuck it : NO LAUREL SHOULDNT BE THERE. not only does it create advantages for that specific sport (not all sports as some stupid complaints make) it also from our pov (trans community) gives a fuckton of ammo to all the anti trans feelings that are literally everywhere as is. I love weighrlifting and because i love it im not going to damage the sport by taking a cis womans place! if they make a trans division (spoilers they wont the olympics hates weightlifitng) then theres your jam. I get arguments for people saying that it means you dont get to pass which is all important sadly the world isnt fair in fact its so unfair that being trans is a death sentence in 130 countries for me id rather be alive and live mty true self and be abvle to do it which gets harder every day than worry about joining a sport under unfair conditions that gives me cheat codes for winning and drilling up MORE Hatred.
how this is even a discussion is really depressing. It could be solved so quickly by bio women simply no longer competing against men. Show up to the meet and sit on the sidelines as a way of protest. When it's your turn to lift, let the clock run. No one is going to show up/buy tickets to watch a few dudes compete against other dudes. Make a trans olympics and let them go to town.
Yeah, how biological or scientific issues become political nowadays is disgusting. Everything has to be political. The facts are there. Men and women are not equal and it's not even close when it comes to strength sports. You can't just say "Oh I'm taking hormones now to lower my body's potential" after 15-20+ years of being a male and benefiting from those natural hormones you had. Even when AAS/PEDs are in place, men and women are still significantly different in strength levels. You don't just get rid of tens of thousands/hundreds of thousands of years of evolutionary differences by just taking some hormones lol. Props to Seb and this segment for openly talking about such a controversial topic even when it shouldn't be.
you missed the entire fucking problem, that's really depressing. People keep forming opinions on this WITHOUT KNOWING THE ACTUAL ISSUE. How do you define "bio" woman? You might think this is easy. The IOC did as well. But it's not. Which is why THE IOC HAD TO CHANGE THEIR CRITERIA.
@@deliciousdishes4531 are you born with 2 X chroms? you're a woman and compete with other women who were born with 2 X chroms. It just aint that deep chief
@@Spudawg there are (albeit rare) cases of people being born with different numbers of sex chromosomes. Exactly the issue that arose with caster semenya competing (who apparently had Kleinfelter’s, which is XXY). I do think it’s unfair that laurel’s allowed to compete against women, but it really isn’t as simple as you’re making out.
It's a little sad how many people in the comments argue as if allowing women and even trans women to be and feel accepted as who they feel they are has absolutely no weight or meaning. It's incredibly sad and it's only serving to take away the legitimacy of this issue. When you argue as if her identity and who she is and feels she is doesn't matter, you are only providing the point of the people who say that this isn't about sports but a hatred of trans people. This issue is hard, and it's something we need to deal with, the amount of test she is allowed to have whole competing, and the competitive advantages she has gotten from having a male puberty is the issue. And we need to find a working solution to how to deal with that and how to find a better solution to that issue. Her born gender doesn't matter it's all the other issues that need to be solved.
when one of your points is "her born gender doesn't matter" and then say "it's only serving to take away the legitimacy of the issue" when it's only because it's a perspective you support, you lose all credibility of the argument you're trying to make. I have nothing against trans people in my daily life but competition and sports is a completely different issue. Her identity doesn't matter at all since she was born as a male and trained as a male lifter for 20+ years. That person cannot fairly compete on a stage against born female lifters. Just because someone doesn't support your viewpoint doesn't make them transphobic or make them hateful of trans people. You didn't list anything about human biology at all but just how people feel about themselves. You didn't provide any solution either to this problem just that you want to write how you feel about the issue and not anything actually concrete with scientific or sports-based evidence. It's simple. Average male even when on hormones will outcompete the average female. You can't get rid of these obvious differences just by taking hormones. Her born gender is the biggest issue in this topic. I don't get why you would even try to discard that.
I especially don't think the answer to this is never allowing a biological woman to ever win at a sport again just because we want to make one other person feel good. This isn't about identity. No one is saying that Hubbard can't be at peace, but people are upset at the fact that everyone pandering to an extraordinarily vocal minority doesn't mean that the rest of the biological women should never have a chance again. It's just asinine.
Her birth gender doesn't matter? Talk about being totally delusional and tone deaf. Just because some people are troubled doesn't mean they get special privilege or advantage. It's about fairness. Thats the reason no one ever has problems with women trying to compete with men: there is nothing unfair to men in their category by allowing any type of woman to compete. Not wanting to allow it the other way around has nothing to do with -isms but having a level playing field for women. If that's unfair to the 255lb handball player bulldozing smaller female Asian players, so be it. I'd rather be unfair to one person than to thousands.
I don't think dividing it by chromosome's is a good idea having trans men complete against ciswomen seems worse than having them complete against trans women
I would imagine that not enough high-level transgender athletes are competing to make the division viable (I don't have the source for that, just spitballing)
there wouldn't be enough people to fill a transgender class, because up to fairly recently transgender people haven't been allowed in high level sports at all. Also then you're mixing people who take T-blockers and people who actively take T.
No, there is not such a need. Everyone, lift against your f-ing biological sex. Period. You can wear dresses when you leave the gym til your poor, confused heart's content.
@@alexanderpowers1 the problem is how to define biological sex. The IOC tried solving this problem for a century, tried a lot of different things, none of which worked, until they gave up recently. Currently we have a category with gender and testosterone restriction, and an open category. They are just called male and female cause it sells better.
And Her/His Result on Olympics Tokyo 2020 Category Women's +87kg was very Bad as she/he didn't Finish after Bombed Out in First Phase Snatch with 120kg Opener Miss ,Make Second 120kg but Jury Turned It PressOut and They take Huge Risk go Up 125kg and Missed Again🏋♂
If I feel myself to being a plant, can I ask some special treatment for me? I would like to begin working as interior plant in a woman changing room. I have a right to ask that no?
Small correction, Springer is a legitimate publisher of many reputable journals, not a journal in itself. The paper seems well researched and written though! Great podcast, thanks for the links!
The point is: we are talking about a person that has benefitted from a male body and male hormones, and male bone and muscle structure for more than 15 years of training. Someone who now has of course suppressed hormone levels, which still fall into the numbers of absolutely elite women, so basically even with the transition she still has like 5 times the testosterone levels of her competitors. I personally don't see an issue with her competing as a woman, but i think it gets unfair when such woman is in the range of an olympic medal. Like if she comes third, if i was the fourth i'd be very pissed. And also, federations telling women to shut up on the topic and just accept this not to upset the general opionion (which lately has gotten pretty sensitive) is just shameful.
To transition at 35, there ARE physical benefits that hormones will not take away, so from that standpoint, it's an unfair advantage for a Trans Woman to compete against biological women. Just have a Trans Male/Female category, where the athletes can still compete, but it's against like individuals. Similar to other divisions, even if there is only one. For instance, Laurel Hubbard would compete in the Trans Woman category in the Olympics and as the first, she will win gold, if she makes at least one of each lift. She is still competing with the biological women, just not AGAINST them.
On your defense of the IWF, the IAAF (athletics) has in fact halfed the amount of allowed T-levels. So it is possible to change it, I guess. It also seems like a slippery slope for female sports in general. We all know that there are certain countries which would go to any length to win medals. What if in a couple of years we have all the top countries forcing atheletes to transition, in order to win medals. It would be like reverse doping or something. It might sound extreme, but many countries push the extremes. So I just fear for the intergrity of womens sports in general. A separate catogory might be a solution, but then again it would be a lot less competitive. It is sure worth a discussion, because every athelete should have the chance to aspire going to the olympics, no matter on which part of the genderspectrum you are.
What this boils down to is power. Those who are convinced they are powerless (MTF trans people) will always try to grab power wherever they can and won't care whom (women) they take it from. This isn't premised on scientific or moral reason. It's mostly a tribal issue, and a person can easily take the side of whatever tribe they feel is going to align with themselves. Attacking this with reason is as futile as telling a person to stop looting a store as they're about to walk out with boxes of iPads.
Why would your personal moral stance on the justice change if female lifters were okay with it? I can understand that you wouldn't oppose it by any means since it's not your business in the end and still hold your opinion, but not that your personal stance would change. I feel like the benefit of the most approach is fairly reasonable here, not to cater for a single person's feeling over the career of many. Funnily enough one doctor tweeted about the olympics testosterone rules, that you can't make restrictions based on the athelete's testosterone levels. It was on data about female and male athletes and how your average female athlete could have higher testosterone levels than your lower end male athletes. Some significantly higher than most male athletes. At the time I took it at face value, of course that's how it is. Then I learned about how rampant doping use is in sports (I was naive and believed that anti-doping works well), how many weightlifters get popped due to corruption, and how today they are taking base level samples to compare the athlete's samples to, to see if there's any changes. I don't think the study in question had the athlete's base levels and listening to this I started to question how accurate those numbers might actually be, do we actually see doping presented in the chart? It didn't have average population numbers and ratios between females and males for comparison (obviously it might be that if you become a successful female athlete, your testosterone levels are naturally higher, sounds believable enough). I believe we'll never know the truth about how accurate that data was to natural athletes, or if it in fact was the whole truth about it.
Then you will have athletes from less fortunate financial backgrounds transitioning despite not identifying themselves as the other biological gender. This causes too big of a problem for a solution.
I’m only at the start of the vid BUT, I think the conversation needs to be: if a cis-woman had taken testosterone, in this case for 25-ish years, and then cycled off and then chose to compete in a drug-tested fed. Would there be outrage? I think there would- increased testosterone or androgens have a long lasting advantage because of the increased satellite cells that increased androgens causes.
the thing is, it's not just cycling off. It's actively blocking and taking estrogen. And it's just kinda not the same, because there are seemingly differences in sex of how effective steroids are after the fact. Also, are the amounts you take as PED even comparable to the amount people would have normally?
@@deliciousdishes4531 What are you questioning with that? Reducing the impact of hormones (et al) past a date does not negate the effect of hormones to that date. If I push you off a building you can stop yourself by landing on the floor, but you'll have a hard time reversing your path to it.
At 18 years old and a man she/he was 48 kg below Tatianas best total 193 + 155 If I am not mistaken I think the numbers are being downplayed. She/he might not be remarkable in the world of male weightlifting but at 18 and a male without steroids she hit 48kg below the WR of the women with the highest total ever who does take gear. Why they are letting he/she compete is beyond belief.
@@garethlewis6633 he/her was a superheavyweight at the time of identifying as a male, 170 c&j and 130 snatch at over 109 kg bodyweight is peanuts, at such a big weight and having all her male advantages at the time it does not require steroids to hit those numbers plus she is from new Zealand where they likely have more stringent testing.
If they have history of compeition pre transition, and their highest lifts and total is above 90% of the record in the fed theyre trying to join post transition, they shouldnt be allowed
Simple solution: open division for everyone and then a female-athlete-only division and we sort people by birth certificates. Chromosome tests are too expensive and involved for anything less than world-class athletics.
I have spoken to two elite Australian female weightlifters about this issue a few years ago when Laurel first hit the weightlifting scene again. One was directly affected being in the same weight class. She was very upset and felt trapped by the rules having to compete at such an unfair disadvantage. She decided to drop down a weight class which worked for her in the short term. The second woman was several weight classes down and saw the whole situation much more academically. She was of the opinion that it was the end of woman’s weightlifting if they were going to let athletes compete who were once male. Which I thought was an interesting broader perspective. To be elite at any sport you need a strong mindset and the knowledge that some of your competitors have such a serious advantage and it is endorsed by the weightlifting federation is very destructive to that mindset.
Wouldn't it be funny that the top 5 women did much better than the trans woman? I mean, the transwoman in UFC got her winning streak stopped by a bio woman? I think I heard it from joerogan's Podcast.
I'm a non-binary person who competes as a woman, and honestly, I would welcome the change of the categories from gender to simply a biological sex marker. A female and a male category, purely in the biological sense, without a gender element in it. That would allow me and other non-binary people who aren't hormonally transitioning to compete comfortably without being misgendered. However, I don't know if this would solve anything wrt trans people who are actively seeking to physically transition to the other sex. Despite being assigned female at birth, trans men lifters on HRT would then be unfairly competing against other female lifters, and the inverse goes for trans women lifters in the male category. It's pretty complex, and I don't have a good solution really, but I personally would definitely like a change in the category names from "women" to "female".
Pretty insane huh? These commentators are afraid what blowback they would recieve if they did. Which is understandable. And yet the entire thread of comments is full of pro trans activist types constantly shilling for the trans argument.
I feel like there is a huge misunderstanding when it comes to qualification towards competition. Laurel was still a great lifter before transition. Competing as “male” there would have been athletes there too who missed out due to her selection. And to say it’s unfair that a woman athlete missed selection because of her is utter bullshit, that’s sport. The fact is at this level in sport there can be underdog athletes who show up and land in a top 5 spot, it’s more common than people think. Laurel has been training just as hard which tends to be forgotten about too. Just because you are transgender doesn’t mean you are the next world champion of any chosen sport. Hormones are incredibly diverse in all people which has only been cracked down on more strictly now and everyone is blaming laurel for female athletes with high testosterone being suspended from competition. People make sport to be something different to what it actually is. The culture of individual sport has become some overly competitive thing that makes people split from one another. Individual sport should be self focused with just trying to better your own personal performances and if it’s the best performance of the days that’s just a bonus. You talk about being a female athlete is hard enough, but don’t mention all the hardship that transgender athletes cop. Imagine being on the news channels, radio stations and other media content almost every night. New Zealand may look like some happy accepting place in the pictures but we still have hate and discrimination here. Laurel doesn’t have the freedom to go out in public like other athletes do especially now after all this bullshit. And now the whole world knows her face. Transgender people are killed. Laurel obviously found a love for weightlifting and has a right to live out her dreams. A lot of things are missed out in this videos. But also a lot exaggerated too.
The fact that people would miss out is not the point they are getting at, the point they are getting that is that LH objectively has a biological advantage over the competition where she did not as male, above average, lifter. I do not understand how you can justify it as being fair to the other women in competition who have less than half of LH's testosterone levels, smaller hands, and weaker ligaments. This is much different from being a genetically blessed athlete, i.e. Lasha has over other super heavy weights, as while other competitors are in the ballpark, LH's advantage completely blows away all other female competitors in terms of these criteria, which was not the case when she was a man, as she was a good, but not great lifter. So no, LH is not genetically blessed, she simply has an unfair advantage akin to cycling on a massive amount of HGH and testosterone. Finally, maybe we should just accept that not everyone can compete in the Olympics, frankly speaking, an overwhelming percent of the general population don't have the genetics to compete at that level, why should LH be any different just because she doesn't identify with the gender assigned to her at birth, especially if it comes at the cost of fairness for others? My point is, the olympics, and sports in general are not fair, not everyone can compete, that's the point of the olympics, is that it is the combination of elite genetics and years of dedication, the pinnacle of what humans can achieve. Thus meaning that a transgender person simply can't compete due to her genetics and circumstance, just like a 150 cm tall person can't compete in the NBA, and that's unfortunate, but she's just like the vast majority of people in that regard.
Biological advantages are in sport already it’s not just gender related. My point is people think this is some desperate option just to get to the Olympics when the process to transition is a lot more than just putting Aunty hand me down clothes on. This is about an athlete who too has trained HER whole life, and finally felt courageous enough to transition. The news only shows the gains never what a transition costs sacrificially. HER face and name blasted all across screens of the world. When comes to sports advantages at this level the media and fans love to project a bias which completely misses out the other half of the story. And in my conclusion there are advantages everywhere in sport, basketball height. I find the comparison against HER pre transition and current transition absolutely in accurate as the male and female performances and ratio is very different more ways than just strength. Just because someone transitions doesn’t make them a world champion, if lasha was to transition there’s absolutely no proof that he would cross over performance. A lot behind the science not spoken about
@@Eli_hudson_harris Clearly you didn't watch the video because the science HAS spoken. It's shown that men who transition to women retain much higher testosterone levels, stronger ligaments and bones, and bigger appendages, all of which tend to help in athletics. This is shown by the scientifically shown stat spoken about on the show that on average, after a year of 'completing' the transition process, an athlete retains ~95% of their strength for strength sports, i.e. olympic weightlifting, which is ultimately what we are talking about. So yes, if Lasha transitioned, there is evidence to suggest he would blow away all competition out of the water. Nobody is saying that LH transitioned just to get to the olympics, and if they are saying that then that person is stupid. Nobody is saying that LH and others who transition do not face great adversity, and if they do say that then they are wrong. What we are saying is that athletes such as LH, have an unfair advantage akin to taking an inhuman amount of HGH and testosterone.
I'm not a expert, but if an athlete feels that her rights to a fair competition hass been violated, can she put a demand or something similar?, maybe if you were the third best female, this guy steals you a medal opportunity
Since my last comment, in the USA transgender female athletes (artificial women) are being prohibited from competing against real female athletes. I hope the IOC follows that example in the future.
Just as a matter of language. Calling Laurel “she” and “her” rather than “he” and “his” concedes the point that men shouldn’t be allowed to compete in women’s sports.
I'm hearing it as 'Laurel' but they might actually be saying 'Yanny', hehe. As for the topic though, there are biological differences between men and women and those difference are literally what define men and women. For example, men have a penis and testicles and women a vagina and womb. I had a bunch of people jump on me in a different video for pointing that out and the stuff they came up with to deny any difference was pretty insane. Apparently 'gender' is a 'human construct', but if you take the 'human constructs' away though then male is still male and female still female... in most cases anyway. btw as for the chromosome thing that are some cases where someone isn't either XX or XY but those people are exceedingly rare.
The entire question of whether mtf trans should compete in women's sport is absurd. Whether or not one can compete in women's sport is first and foremost determined by whether or not someone is a female. Since mtf trans are not females, the question shouldn't even be considered. The fact that there is this entire societal discussion surrounding this is utterly absurd.
Hey man that’s where you draw the line and lose people’s attention, the argument is if Hubbard should be able to compete in the women’s category as a trans women NOT about trans people in general. Don’t loss sight of the real issue.
@@danai3560 I get that and the point you making is made by everyone here. I'm just adding another issue that's messed up from this crap. By calling him her they trying to easy you in with their way of thinking. Both issues are connected to the same problem.
If there are countries that are willing to force their athletes to take drugs as youth lifters in order to compete and they see lying about being trans as another way gain an advantage they won't start forcing that on athletes too?
My totals as a male at 48 years old are 160 kilo CJ and 130 Snatch at 203 lbs. If I transition (claim to be a female and still keep my testicles but take hormone suppression and estradiol) can I take gold at the next Olympics?
I'm pretty sure the comment section will soon be filled with comments along the lines "oh, it's just three able bodied hetero cis white males talking, where's the diversity?". You can form an opinion on something without being a direct part of what your opinion is about. Kinda like how an actor who plays a murderer doesn't have to commit murder. That being said, this is an issue that female weightlifters have to resolve on their own. If they are afraid to speak out for reasons of PC or if being woke is more important to them than fairness, so be it. I'd say the IWF should keep using the criteria which have worked until now for 99% of the population (except for very few athletes like Caster Semenya) to keep the competition as fair as possible. Fortunately, this is not an issue at all for men's weightlifting, since I'm totally convinced that a female-to-male person will never win anything in the men's category.
You guys have to keep in mind that all sport is really just entertainment for the masses, unless you are actually competing. Therefore I may admit that it is unfair for the competitors, but it's entertaining for the masses - it's like a drag queen weightlifter, what more can you want? lol
It’s not entertaining though. And your comment about “drag queen lifter” is super uncalled for. No, Laurel shouldn’t be allowed to compete with the women, but you also don’t have to make some derogatory comment like that
There simply isn’t a female lifter born a biological female that has come even close to lifting the weights Laurel does at 42 years old. It just doesn’t happen and never will.
@@mellpear4773 Li is strong, nobody is disagreeing there. But they literally referenced the best numbers supers have put up from both men and women and they aren’t even close. The strongest women ever will be stronger that a lot of men, but the strongest men will always be far and away stronger than all women. Lasha snatches like 20-30 kg more than the heaviest female clean and jerk in comp, right? There’s a comment above that highlighted that when there was a weight class both divisions shared (69) that the men’s total was 91kg (200lbs) higher. I don’t mean this as an attack, I just don’t understand how people can think that is fair. Could you help me understand your perspective?
To clarify, I totally agree with the sentiment of this video. And yes of course, the top men will always be stronger. However you originally said: “there simply isn’t...a biological female that has come even close to lifting the weights Laurel does” This is not true. Li Wen Wen lifts way more than Laurel. That is not a comment on the politics, that is just a fact.
It’s all about votes, politicians fights for LGBT votes, and how a simple issue like, man become women , is called a women thing prop up !!!! The society is sickening !!!
Transgender and feminists dont like categorization, then dont have any gender category and dont complain when the men win all the events and women athletes fade into obscurity.
"Tell me you know absolutely nothing about feminism and transgender identitied, without telling me you know absolutely nothing about it". By the way YOU are the one who do not like categorizations most since you seem to think "feminists" is a homogenous group of people having ONE opinion on things...
What I see as a problem is to force transitions. 99,9% of weightlifters are already juiced to the max, so why not go one step further. You are not elite in your younger years but the representation of women is weak so get those non elite males to transition. Some will do it for sure and pretend to be trans just to be able to get some medals in. Seems crazy but not too far out for me I guess. 35 years seems like an odd age to transition for sure. Having test levels through the roof by female standards for 35 years and then artificially lowering them to be a women and compete against other women is odd. Do we suspect Hubbard to be a clean lifter? If he is clean he might be competing with juiced up females. Do androgen receptors decrease from transitioning? Do PEDs give you more benefits if you are a transitioned male over "natural females". Does it force female weightlifters to take even more PEDs and get popped more often and therefor ruining the sport even more? Just some thoughts, no blame on LGBTQ+.
I just wanna say that transitioning later in life is very common, there wasnt a lot of information regarding trans people a few years ago, so many didnt realize they were trans until later. Also, there used to be laws such as forced steralisation of trans people in many countries just a few years ago, makes sense they didnt wanna transition back then. Also, the medical diagnosis for trans people can take years, and there are many roadblocks implemented by governements to further delay the process. So basically, somone transitioning at 35 is not a cause for suspicion.
@@emiljorgensen5340 I guess it's a hard decision to make, to not let trans people compete in womens categories when they faced being an outcast their entire life. I simply see the potential of "womens" sport disappearing. Just open a trans category maybe.
It is totally unfair to the women who have worked so hard. It is I think ultimately up to the female competitors to seriously protest. It is not about the chemistry, there is way more involved than Testasterone . Almost all would have gone through puberty, bones, muscle all effected prior to any transition. How will you get women into weightlifting if they have to compete against transitioned males.
