The moral of the story is that airplanes are not like cars; even single-engine piston aircraft have enough differences between make/model where you should not fly passengers in an airplane you have not flown that much. That’s why there are type ratings with commercial airliners.
@@user-mp2qj6rs9c I drove a corvette at one time (my dad let me drive his on the residential streets where he lives), and, sure it is different from a Cruze (which I rented at one time when I was getting a ding on my car repaired) just like a BMW 328I is different from a Toyota Corolla. However, all cars start the same, and they have the same basic controls/procedures; it is not "learning to drive over again" every time you drive a different car. Airplanes are different enough, especially commercial airliners, where you are learning to fly all over again (even to fly a A320 when you have been flying a 737 for many flight hours, despite the size similarity). That is why it is more important to read the checklist before you fly a different airplane than you are used to.
When I was learning, way back in the late 60's, the FBO would NOT allow newbys to haul any passengers before the 100 hour mark! Still very good advice.
@@robinj.9329 Too many USA CFI's can only teach Mild Maneuvering. They avoid most hard maneuvers and spin training , Spins that in Canada students have to do before solo. Avoid Chicken CFI's that only teach Mild Maneuvering.
@Shawn Huffman I'd say 100 is a good number for building ADM skills, solid WX interp, good judgement, and confidence. And, learning quick doesn't necessarily mean better nor safer compared to those having it "stick" at later hours. The cockpit has room for two pilots, not for them swinging their massive cocks around.
RIP that family had a major loss that day. I thought because they weren't so high and it wasn't so fast they could survive. When the narrator said no survivors my heart sank.
Ironically one of my best friends and great pilot (i too am a pilot and together we’ve flown many “adventures”) was in a similiar cessna with two other pilots. They are all “good sized” guys. He wasn’t the PIC. They were taking off from a grass strip. Getting near the runway end he could see they weren’t going to clear the fence at the end. He grabbed the flap lever and quickly added flaps. The plane ballooned up over the fence . The PIC had a look of horror, surprise and gratitude. Know your airplane.
Had the PIC in your story used full flaps, he likely wouldn't have cleared the end of the runway, either. Contrary to popular misconception, flaps do not "increase lift." Rather they increase drag while reducing fuselage angle of attack, reducing stall speed, and moving stall formation inboard, thereby maintaining aileron control during landings. They ALWAYS, however, reduce acceleration, reduce climb rate and increase the the distance required to take off and clear a 50' obstacle, which is why procedures for light aircraft are to take off with flaps 0, or at most, 10 deg, the latter being for improving safe handling at low airspeeds, not because of any false notions about it increasing lift. All "great pilots" whether PIC or not, double-check takeoff and landing data before accepting clearance to take the active runway. One overnight flight found us diverting to a field prior to our destination for fuel due to temps being hotter and headwinds being stronger than forecast. After filling tanks, however, we knew we were at max gross takeoff weight. That wasn't the problem. The proble was heat and humidity, which combined to put our computed takeoff roll over a 50 foot obstacle near limits for the runway. Instead of trusting the books, at 2:30 AM I spent another 20 minutes finding a distance for V1 (not normally done in this aircraft) by using the distance for landing over a 50 foot obstacle. I briefed my copilot on calling out this distance, as well as distances remaining by 500' intervals. That way, if I hadn't lifted off and established a minimum rate of climb at Vy and about 50' by the 50' obstacle landing distance, I'd abort and land. As it turned out, the books said we'd rotate earlier and be higher than where we were, but we still hit 50' at Vy and 300 fpm just before the minimum distance, so I continued. We struggled at 300 fpm during the climb, and were down to about 150 fpm at Vy by 1,500 ft, so that's where we flew the remaining 60 miles to destination. Upon landing, I lifted the other pilot's overnight bag to discover he'd gone way over the weight limit by adding two 15-lb hand weights and a gallon of water, while lying to me that his bag was at or below 20 lbs. Had I known, I'd have directed the knucklehead to leave them in the car before takoff. Come to think of it, that extra 38 lbs likely had more to do with putting us behind our fuel curve than did the weather. What a knucklehead. Then again, I was a knucklehead for failing to heft his bag.
@@justincase5272 agree, taking off with “full” flaps won’t have worked, but up to speed 10 degrees can work wonders in an out of options situation they found themselves in.
@@hotrodray6802 So you're saying someone should be half way through their required training in a C172 before learning how to fly a standard traffic pattern? How to perform a standard landing? How to control the aircraft during slow flight? Might want to rethink that.
@If you practise without them, then you'll be even better at flying when you do decide to use them. It's like training with weights, then when you don't use them you perform much better. They're more of a safety hazard anyway (like in this crash). Best to just avoid them, in general.
I stopped flying around 20-yrs ago. I never finished my instruction and had not done a check ride. At some point, the realization that this incredibly enjoyable avocation requires much more than a casual interest was enough to convince me to stop. Watching these videos, I made the right decision.
Yeah, but you missed out on a lot of fun. Aviation isn't for everyone and really it isn't that demanding if you enjoy it and depending on your mission. If you had gotten your license and flown by yourself a little bit you wouldn't feel that way. Not to mention this was a kid with little experience flying over weight and with flaps in. Pilot error is the biggest killer, these are simple mistakes not to make.
I googled this story. The kid had gotten his license one month before the crash. He had just been accepted to the US Naval Academy. The other victims were his 53 year old mother, and his 58 year old step father. The 4th fatality was his 35 year old cousin who was a firefighter that lived in the area. The cousin was also married and the father of two daughters, one 14, the other 4. There was also his 6 year old son. So in addition to the 4 lives lost, a young mother of three was made a widow and three children lost their dad. Awful, just awful.
I’m sure the parents were so proud of their son but dear God no one should trust their lives to a young man who just got his license a month before. Unfortunately this isn’t a car, you can’t tell him to slow down if thing get hairy. RIP to all these folks. Such a tragedy.
Because no matter what the video topic is, or the quality, there always seems to be a minimum of 1-2% dislikes. It's meaningless drivel from YT trolls.
I'm transitioning to a 172 soon and I was reminded of this video. I've been flying Cherokees with manual flaps and will be sure this is something I check.
@@hotrodray6802 - Of course you do need flaps on Cherokees or Cessnas. For soft fields or short field take offs. On Cherokees-with passengers i take off with 10 flaps just in case of engine fail on take off. I also teach that maneuver, partial power or no power 30 feet engine cut and land in front. That idiot on this video didnt know those i can tell.
@@feetgoaroundfullflapsC 100% correct. I use 10 flaps on my C172 in short field, soft field, with passengers, and in hot weather. The other mistake this guy in the video made, was when he realized he didn't have enough lift to climb out, was he didn't lower the nose immediately. ASI should've told him he was climbing well below Vy and he needed air speed. Dump the nose and fly 50 feet off the ground if you have to, but build speed...
@@rickkimball6125 -If you were not taught engine fails right after take off, you might not lower that nose on time to avoid stalling. It is very hard to point nose down at runway when you wanted to take off instead. That is why there are so many take off and go around accidents in USA. Only a few CFI's have the balls to teach EFATO.
I watched this and saw something very familiar. I realized that they were describing a similar issue I had when I was a sub-100-hour new private pilot, only the issue was with the flaps being retracted on landing. I had been used to C-152s and rented a C-150. The airport FBO did not require a checkout due to my C-152 time. No problems on takeoff, but I made 3 attempts to land and could not figure why my angle of attack kept flattening out on final and why I was so fast over the fence. I was accustomed to a flap handle with detents like the C-152 and C-172, however the C-150 utilizes the toggle switch shown in the video. I was adding my flaps for landing, but then returning the switch to the "up" position rather than the "neutral" position, inadvertently retracting them each time. I was accustomed to the flap handle itself being the visual indication of flap position and this is not the case in the C-150. I was flying a plane that looked nearly identical to what I had put perhaps 75 hours on during the previous year, yet one difference in control configuration caused 2 aborted landings. On approach number 3, I figured out the issue and landed with full flaps. It was a very early lesson in "get checked out in every airplane you fly".
fr8fr6dr ye, so you didnt do a proper “check flaps for correct and symmetrical extension and retract at each stage” prefilght check or you would have notice how to operate the switch. We all forget things, i sure as hell do. I walked away leaving the master switch on once. Flat battery in the morning oops. I always do a debrief now so i can note and learn from errors. I learnt from that error not to rush a check list just because i’m stressed from a solo cross country and just wanted a drink in a quiet place haha
christopher wilson Great to see that private pilots on this channel are willing to tell about their weak moments and mistakes; any pp should, imho, follow this channel on a regular basis and learn from it. This will make flying safer! Well spoken Christopher, and many others!
@ Hot Rod Hay Sure. And you pull up in a Cessna with no flaps on final expecting flaps and it reduces alright... right after it balloons sky high. How did you pass your checkride?
A few comments re. flaps on the C-172: The flap switch shown in this video (for the Cessna) does have to be held in place to extend the flaps, but not to retract them. If the switch is moved to 'retract', it will stay in that position until the pilot physically moves it again. This way, flaps can be allowed to fully retract while the pilot moves on to another task. Although the POH does not list flap extension as part of the preflight inspection, I have yet to see a C-172 checklist that does not list flaps extended as part of the procedure. The pilot is to check for proper extension and that the actuator is connected and functioning properly. Furthermore, one of the items in the 'After Start' checklist is to retract flaps in stages. Beyond the after-start checklist, the pre-takeoff checklist also requires the pilot to set the flaps for takeoff as needed. If this pilot was using his checklists correctly, this accident would not likely have taken place. As it is, it seems clear to me that he missed a number of opportunities to correctly configure his plane for takeoff - or was not made aware of the performance penalty that full flaps would place on the plane.
I agree, I don't think that the previous Cirrus experience with partial flap down config for TO caused this, it was skipping of retraction of flaps that were fully extended for the preflight. He probably didn't have a sterile cockpit and missed that checklist items.
Stephen Parkin in addition, before take off, he must look at the left and right wings to make sure the ailerons go up and down, giving another chance to glance at flaps
Sadly, this young and inexperienced pilot was glaring in his deficiencies. Had he somehow had a successful flight this time, his odds for making fatal mistakes soon enough were stacking up against him. This sounds cold and I don't mean for it to, but I'm sorry he couldn't have been alone when the inevitable happened.
Some 172s are different. I trained in a 172M that had this switch but didn't have to be held in either position, nor does the same style switch in my 150M. Also, It may not be in the POH, but at flight schools in this area pilots who learn on Cessnas are taught to extend the flaps when they flip the master on to check the fuel gauge and beacon prior to the external walkaraound. It allows us to check the actuator for security and inspect the hinges for wear.
I wouldn't necessarily be ageist here. I've seen plenty, similar videos where the pilot was considerably older and/or had similar flight hours. The point about lack of experience+passenger(s) stands, but anyone can lack experience. I'm 41 years old and have 0 hours.
I took my parents and sister up right after I got my private pilot license, and I was 18. The only difference is I did all my training in a 172, and flew them in that same plane. Also the flaps were only limited to 30°, had that been the case with this plane, I don't think he would've crashed.
@@ajmomoho Depending on the vintage of your 172, the flaps may have been limited because an STC was installed to increase the horsepower from 150. Usually to 160 or 180 from an engine swap. Or it may just be later model that only had 30 degree flaps. Either way the 30 degrees would have fucked this pilot into the ground as well. The main issue was likely the flap switch. As I've said, the flaps will continue to their max travel unless you actively monitor the flaps and their switch/gauge. Very early in my training I nearly stalled on base trying to retract 10 degrees but not noticing I actually did a full retract. That's how I learned to be more wary of those specific switches.
Simple task of looking out the window would have prevented that. You always look and check your control surfaces for proper motion. He should have seen his flaps down. As they are right there out the window. You would need to blind to not see them at 45 degrees....
@@scottmcg666 In a 172, we often take off with 10 degrees of flaps. Short field, soft field, etc. But you never, ever take off with full flaps (40 degrees) because it doesn't have enough power to overcome all that drag. 40 degrees was used only in extreme short field landings and if you go around, you always take the flaps up to 30 instantly before trying to climb.
@@rickkimball6125 Ya, I think you're right. Accident aircraft is Lycoming 172M, POH says 10 for short field w/no obstacles, otherwise go no flaps. My Continental 172 POH says the same, but I almost always takeoff with 10 degrees. I can't believe he got to 100 feet with 40 degrees at max gross. IMO private pilots should get a briefing or a short lesson with the spring loaded flap switch if they're flying with one for the first time. That switch can put you in a very bad situation if you're not used to it. That's exactly why Cessna changed to selectable flaps on the 172N. I had a close call going around on a missed 40 degree approach and won't make the mistake again. Unfortunately the pilot in this story didn't get his second chance.
OMG, i had similar experience from one Cessna172 to another Cessna172 that had this EXACT flap switch! I almost stall spin thinking flaps are up! Luckily, had CFI with me who pointed out this model's flap switch was different then one I flew day before. Thank you for this helpful video
This is very interesting to see, at 3:12 when it is stated 'pre-flight in the Cessna does not call for flap extension...' that must have been referring to the specific Mike model of Cessna. We always extend flaps full to check flap tracks and asymmetric deployment amongst other things. However looking through the Mike model POHit is true, flap extension is not on the preflight section. In most all others it is. I am quite curious as to this reason! Thanks again for a great video.
@@Brave_Aviator There were a bunch of different types of C172 flap selector switches over the years. (The ones I really hated were momentary switches - you hold the switch down and look at the flap for the red line position indicator.) Cabin check was control lock - remove & stow, master - on, flaps - select down, fuel - check level, master - off after flaps reach full. After engine start, flaps retract. But soft field takeoffs called for flaps 10, and I think short field takeoffs did too. (Could they be optional? It's been since 2003.) Doing a last-minute go-around in a C172 with full flaps extended was always a white knuckle ride for me. Even with no passengers it felt like all it could do was hold level. I mean, I know it could climb with a little patience, but that thing was such a rocket on takeoff compared to the 150/152, and I was used to 700 fpm climbouts, not... like, 150 fpm. Full flaps on the C172 was like pulling a parachute.
I think the key takeaway here is to always visually verify flap position before takeoff as you're visually clearing the final, and never skip the full before takeoff checklist. Even if you've just landed and did a taxi back and maybe you want to skip the runup - always do the rest of the checklist. Incorrect flap position on takeoff is the easiest way to kill oneself in almost any aircraft, including the most forgiving ones like a 172.
Simple mistake, had he done this with only himself in the airplane he probably would have climbed out no problem, learned from it and never done it again. Really hammers home the point that when you are sharing the cockpit with someone else you are responsible for their life. In any case good checklist discipline would have helped this young man catch his mistake. Sad.
Yeah, if I ever become a pilot I wouldn't take anyone else up until I was completely comfortable with the aircraft and was fully aware of my limitations.
@@dx1450 That's what we all *intend,* but every FAA examiner knows the first thing a new PP will do, regardless of what they've said, is take up someone they love to share with them the thing they love so much. It's human nature. I hope one day you have that privilege too! (Nice drumming - I saw the vid from Kobe!)
Thank you so much for posting this video. It's SO IMPORTANT to read the procedures in the POH for every aircraft you fly. I have a Cessna 172G with the same Continental motor, 2300 lbs useful load, and spring loaded flap switch. The takeoff procedure is never use flaps except 10 degrees for short and soft fields with no obstacle. If there is an obstacle, don't use flaps at all because the advantage of shorter liftoff is lost within the first 50 feet of climb. Continental 172's don't want to climb with any flaps out, the motor isn't powerful enough to overcome the added drag.
I must have a different motor in the 172 I'm flying. I can climb ok with up to 30 degrees of flaps. The last 10 degrees makes for almost no climb though, except at lower altitudes and colder days.
@@ProfessionalPilot put a video of you climbing on take off at 85 degree farenheit and at full gross with 30 flaps. Good luck with that. Temp makes a huge diff. What you can do at freezing temp, will stall you at hot temp
with full flaps, its amazing he ever got it to take off speed.. it's a real boat with flaps full out.. 172 with 2 people on board will get to about 100 ft and stop climbing.
I did this as student years ago doing touch and goes, it jumped off the ground about stall speed, I was to high and slow to try and land as it went up pretty quick, I just let itself ride up to 800 ft and slowly took flaps out, if i recall correctly the fastest air speed i could get was 62-65 knots with full flaps, it was a nerve racking learning experience
It’s tragic these things occur, but it’s a blessing that these videos exist so others can learn from the mistakes of others, and I say that with the utmost respect to those who made the mistakes, and to those who perished. We’ll never know how many lives are saved by these videos. Thank you for making and sharing these valuable lessons.
Two lessons here, (1) getting checked out doesn't mean you are good at it; it only means you are barely passable, and (2) don't show off even after you get good at it, especially with family members; that familiarity tends to make you relax at the wrong time.
3:10 my preflight checklist in a 172 type is to always lower the flaps after hitting the master (to make sure they’re operational) then retract them. I do it while standing just outside the cockpit. This is how I was taught in 1995.
Very true !!!!! Can also happen to high time pilots who spent most of their life in one type A/C. Been there done that but recognized what I had done wrong and corrected. Not flaps.
At 1:29 the controller said "you can turn it right or on the grass is fine." I'm assuming that the controller was suggesting to bring it on down and not trying to come back. Apparently, "on the grass" never entered the pilot's mind.
Yes, and perhaps the outcome may have been different had the kid maintained level flight until he got enough altitude to sort things out & come back. The attempted turn in that scenario tipped the scales. Just sad. I also fault his instructor for not making sure the kid had a grasp on such matters.
Thankfully I learned from my instructor just how wicked the 40 flap setting on a Cessna 150 can be. We were doing touch and goes, practicing approaches over a 50 foot obstacle with 40 flap. On my first landing I firewalled the throttle and selected flaps up. The little Cessna with full fuel and two adults balked at the engines attempt to propel us down the runway. I was so stunned that I glanced over my shoulder to see these giant barn doors still hanging in the breeze. They were already slowly on their way up and as they passed 30 for 20 degrees the acceleration returned to normal. Prior to this my flap settings were always 20 or 30 and not noticeable on a touch and go. It was a valuable lesson in checking the airplane configuration before trying to haul the nose up higher to make it climb. I think they now call it pitch, power, performance. Some years later I read a sad NTSB report about a local solo student pilot who took off with full flaps and tried to make it climb by pulling the nose higher and higher until it stall spun. Made me incredibly sad to know I'd learned the answer to this so very long ago.
Not to mention doing a go around with 40. Firewalling the throttle at that nose low of an attitude actually increases the decent rate. In my instructors words, a go around with full flaps in the 150 is "a real hand full." No wonder they went to 30 for max flaps on the 152. Speaking of transitions. When getting my complex endorsement, I had trouble looking at the tach for power changes...On a couple of occasions, I was looking for climb power--25 squared--and reduced the MP to 21 or so while looking at the tach...thinking WTF. Old habits are hard to break... As far as this incident, aviation is all about creating good, safe routines. It takes much more than a couple of hours in a plane to create safe habits...Those old Cessna POHs are not helpful for pre-flights...very sparse.
it's the same reason they went to 30° max on the newer 172s as well. I learned to fly in a 150 with the old 40° flaps, they are absolutely awesome for making short landings but devastating if you ever dare to forget to retract them (as seen in this video). Which is also why my instructor taught me to use 30° of flaps unless 40° is absolutely required, that makes it more of a conscious descision and less one out of habit. It might only differ 10° but the effects are massive. At 40° it's barely able to maintain level flight let alone climb
Thierry - old reply but I'll add one more to the list. Flap switch crapped out when doing touch & go's with an Instructor in the 150. Dual pucker power alone must have helped as the climb was absolutely minimal trying to ease it up over the power lines/houses/trees off the end of the runway. Valley a quarter mile out eased the strain, but taller power lines were looming. Got a few degrees up on the flaps which helped. We had adequate clearance by the power lines fortunately, but were NEVER so pleased as when repeated playing with the switch got them to come up from that final near full position. Landed it & parked it, glad to NOT have to eke it out all the way around the pattern.
as a piper trained cessna renter this video had kept me looking out for small details I could have otherwise easily missed. Overprepared me for my rental checkout haha
Back in the 1980's many Air Guard units were transitioning from the F-100 to the A-10. During this time there were a series of accidents where pilots in the A-10 inadvertently fired the canopy remover through an open canopy. It was found that the canopy jettison handle in the A-10 was in the same location as the parking brake release handle was in the F-100. This was causing former F-100 pilots trying to release the parking brake in the A-10 to pull the canopy jettison handle by mistake.
Inocorrect information on the Cirrus. Flaps are set to 50% for roll and takeoff (no flaps on the SR22 or SR22T)...then once climb is establish (a few seconds) flaps are set to UP. The young pilot was likely shocked by the low performance of the Cessna, esp overloaded and did not raise the flaps....an easy mistake to make if distracted. (note. Cirrus preflight requires the flaps to be set to 100% to check connections, servos etc, Then reset to UP for taxi. So there is no need to set flaps to 100% at any other time than on final approach to land).
This is one reason why my private pilot instructor reversed the flaps switch in the plane. Now you have to hold it to put flaps down and just flip it up and they will automatically retract and lock without the pilot having to hold up the switch. Makes things a lot easier in T & Gs and Go-Arounds.
Reminds of a documentary that's somewhere on RU-vid about the incredible ladies who delivered planes from the factories to the military airfields during WW2. Flying a Lancaster one day and a Spitfire the the next, often for the first time, in heavy weather with nothing but a compass and a map.
Student pilot here getting close to getting my private pilots license but I’m also 6 foot 4 290 pounds ex power lifter and I guess one of the benefits of being at this size is that since Weight and Balance will also be more critical of an issue It means less passengers that have to worry about Because they simply won’t be flying with me
I trust that things have gone well in the past 7 months. Just 6 foot 1 here but have a size 12 shoe which is not unusual - unless... Unless you are flying in the winter in Canada with winter foot gear on in a two seat Diamond Katana. It took a number of times failing to be able to control the aircraft on the ground before I figured out what was wrong. About a 1/4in of the toe ridge on my boots were catching on the firewall. My instructor who was about 5'10" with slightly smaller feet could control the aircraft without any difficulty and was puzzled as to why I was so incompetent controlling the aircraft on the ground. This was very late winter, early spring and one day with warmer weather I had different footwear on and wouldn't you know it - I could had full control of the aircraft! For some reason in flight this was never an issue but that was due to pure luck. Both the instructor and I were active duty Air Force, I was a maintenance officer and he was C-130 pilot and both of us knew that we weren't understanding what was going on but he was on his toes so respond. We both breathed a sigh of relief when I figured it out. I never did finish getting my licence - divorce and then the company closed down, I got posted and life took me along a different path. I still love aviation ever after spending four years doing military aviation accident investigation from the engineering point of view.
during the preflight checks we were always taught to LOOK at the control surfaces when pulling back and forth on the yoke etc, its not impossible to put the wire pulleys and wires on wrong so a right bank demand may make a left etc,up down down up, if he had done this checkout and tried the flap switch and LOOKED at the flaps movin (we used to on the 150s) he may have noted differences. I've seen a few crashes at the local airport rich pilot old RAF plane too much money spent on new avionics and not enough on fuel filters, smoking hole in the ground, new rolls royce sitting in the car park.
true,,, but i think the knee jerk reaction is pull back ... wonder why the throttle wasnt talked about at all,,,, wonder if the kid gave her the beans ? Seems like from take off at full mustard tplane should have enough to keep in flight?
Jack... knee jerk reaction..?? You mean he was an incompetent pilot that somehow passed the checkride. The FAA examiner and flight instructors both had their heads up their asses. Me? 50+ yrs and several thousand hours.
@@jfdesignsinc.innovationsid1583 The 172 doesn't climb well with 40 degrees of flaps, even with a light load. With a heavy load, I'm surprised it even climbed out of ground effect.
The POH might not mention a Flap check during pre-departure procedures, but it is wise to check the flaps anyway during the initial electrical check. Battery on, all lights on, pitot heat on, flaps fully extended. Check everything works properly, then turn lights and pitot heat off, turn batery off and leave flaps extended until after starting the engine.
Had a few exciting experiences in C-150's that had their flap switch installed backwards. Normally you press against spring force to lower the flaps, and they can be fully raised with one flip of the switch. In otherwords, your finger must be on the switch to lower flaps. With the switch reversed, if distracted, it is pretty easy to accidentally dump all flaps on final, or not fully remove them on a touch and go. I now hold the switch during the whole operation and visually confirm ontop of that.
I had a similar experience with thankfully a better outcome. I had trained exclusively on on 172 that had detents for the flaps. One push down provided 10 degrees flaps, the next 20, and the next 40. In my first solo the aircraft I trained in was not available and the club provided me with an older model 172. Just at the end of downwind, turning to base I placed the flap button in the first detent. Unfortunately in this aircraft the flaps continued to deploy until the flap switch was returned to the original position. I did not know this. As I turned onto base the aircraft pitched up and began to lose altitude in the turn. Thankfully training reflexes immediately kicked in and I pushed the nose down and applied power, which stabilized the plane. I turned final, and landed the aircraft with full flaps, without knowing that was the case. Had I done the opposite, losing altitude, with none to spare, and pulled the nose up, I don't think I would be here to write this. My near miss was not changing aircraft type, just a different version of the same.
It's usually the basics that get you. Easy to say, but so hard to do -- always be vigilant. Think and plan ahead. What are the most important things in aviation? The next 2 things.
When I was getting my private I did the vast majority of my training in a grumman tiger. About 6 days before my checkride the grumman broke and I had to transition to a cessna 172. They are very similar to fly for the most part but one difference is that in the grumman the flaps would retract automatically when the switch was flipped up, but to increase flaps the switch had to be held down. In the cessna I was flying there was a neutral setting and then auto up and auto down. On my first solo in the Cessna I was ripping it around the pattern to get familiar with it, came abeam the numbers on downwind and put out 10 degrees of flaps; or at least I thought I did. Muscle memory from the grumman had me flip the switch down and hold my thumb on it for three seconds and then let go. I never returned the flap switch to neutral and quickly noticed my airspeed bleeding off. I put in some extra power and flew the rest of the pattern fine albeit not on correct speed (I kept it a little fast as I was worried with 40 degrees of flaps). That experience and listening to this story and stories like it goes to show how dangerous and unforgiving aviation can be. I always remember that if someone like Dale Snordgrass can be killed by a GA aircraft so can you.
Just for record in a normal C-172M or earlier with the selection switch as described, if you press it up it STAYS up and fully retracts the flaps automatically. You'd have to manually bring it back to neutral to stop the retraction.
yes these videos are excellent learning tools it's great when you can learn from other people's mistakes though it's unfortunate it cost them their lives
I did the same thing trying a short field take off in a 172. I was used to flying PA-28s where you put two notches of flaps for a short field takeoff. Luckily I put the flaps up after climbing over the trees.
My first ever takeoff in a 172S I extended to 10 for flaps and when it broke the ground the damn thing popped into the air and surprised the hell out of me. I thought I was gonna stall with how steep it climbed. I was use to an Archer III. Every since then even though the checklist calls for 10 I use 0. But I don’t fly with weight either.
This is an excellent excellent video also the fact that typically people check out in the 150 and with or without the instructor and handles pretty good they have no idea what a Cessna 172 would feel like with any type of real weight in it and some some good instructors when they check someone out they actually put sandbags in the seats the simulate a normal for passenger payload in a Cessna 172 and I think very few people do this
But you calculate takeoff performance with a certain set of parameters including flap setting. Flying airline or GA, before takeoff, there should be a check at some point that your aircraft config and performance calculations match!
When I first started flying in 1978, I flew in a C-150. It had the exact same type of flap switch. Since then I have on occasion flown older 172's and 182's that had this same system. One thing this video did not say was that these earlier aircraft had flaps that extended FORTY (40) DEGREES, not like later models that only deployed 30 degrees of flaps. The video mentioned that with the flaps extended on this plane that even if there were no passengers it would have been difficult for it to fly. That is an understatement! That extra 10 degrees of flaps creates a huge amount of additional drag.
This video spoke volumes to me. Having had a similar situation but can be here to talk about it. Short field take off in a piper vs Cessna 172 mistaken the flap settings.
i have been making this exact mistake for years in MSFS with a 172 and honeycomb bravo throttle. (i thought the spring loaded flap lever was just a cheap imitation of the cessna flap lever and not how it actually works IRL). also i thought it was normal to use half flaps for takeoff in a 172 lol.
Always thought I loved the low wing but nice specs on wing ratios camber etc. Been flying forward 20 yrs and have a new insight into that c-172/182.SAFE FLYING😃
Always use a checklist, always use a takeoff checklist no matter how short, and always visually verify the flaps before takeoff. If the checklist says set flaps, pencil in set flaps and visually verify flaps. If the flap setting is zero, that can be easily observed from the pilots seat in most small 4 seat aircraft.
He had Cirrus kind of take off flaps. Didnt check well and ended with 30 or 40 instead. Still, he stalled it at 200 agl instead of pushing nose down and land in front. Bet was not taught take off emergencies by CFi. many USA cfi's are afraid of teaching those manly emergencies..
I was flying, including many hours in C172, about 40 years ago. I seem to recall standard take-off configuration included flaps at no more than 10 degrees. Landing config was often full flaps, and on aborted landing, of course, flaps were promptly but smoothly adjusted to the normal take-off config.
Stopped at a remote field when I was a student...to drain bladder (lol). Dutifully ran flaps to full for preflight after the short break, and they stuck full down. Cycled the lever multiple times and finally unstuck them. I only lower flaps to 20 on preflight ever since. You can takeoff, get her home, and land if they are stuck at 20 but pretty hard to takeoff and fly with flaps 40.
Very well done video. I dislike the older Cessna flap switches, but they must be dealt with. Even the newer flap switches can have worn-out detents to make selection more difficult. The PA-28 Johnson Bar for flaps leaves no questions and makes selection easiest.
I actually moved out to Waterford Michigan back in 2011 to do my flight training here. I remember hearing about this when it happened. As someone with most of their training in a C150, I have only used the full 40 degrees once, and that was a demonstration. There's a reason they stopped making Cessnas with 40 degrees
There is nothing wrong with using 40 degrees flaps in a C-150 or 172 specially on short strips. The later models with only 30 degrees tended to float a bit causing longer landings requiring slips to land short. Your training should have exposed you to using the full capabilities of the 150 instead of a quick demo with full flaps. Amazing you're still around.
@@theresacaron4238 I know full well how to use 40 degrees in the 150. The reason I don't use them in 99%+ of my landings is because it is virtually impossible to go around with 40 in, not to mention the increased likelihood of an accelerated stall trying to flare. The shortest runway at Pontiac is around 4K feet if I recall, and it is rarely used except for heavy N/S crosswinds. As for me still being alive, it's worked for my 2.5k flight hours so far. Can I use 40 when I absolutely need to? Sure. Would I recommend it as part of a standard landing configuration? No
Scary stuff. I did something similar to this once as a low time solo pilot on a touch and go in a C-150. Simply forgot to retract the flaps upon landing. The airplane pitched way up and popped back into the air as soon as I applied full power. Fortunately I had the presence of mind to realize what was going on, so I held the nose down and flew in ground effect I while I slowly bumped the flaps back up to gain airspeed without sinking. If I had kept trying to climb out with the flaps extended, it would have been bad.
i did the same thing years ago in a 172, the thing just lifted up just bellow stall speed but I knew it was to low and to slow to take the flaps out, I slowly got to about 800 then started to take flaps out and gained airspeed , it was never racking
remember, if youre having trouble to gain altitude on your climb out after take off, always remember, ground effect will be your friend, maintain that ground effect and gain some airspeed, and when you feel confident with the airsped, thats when you climb at a much lower rate than normal. (happened to me once with a same spec 172)
These sort of accidents, were a well meaning pilot kills those they love by crashing a perfectly good airplane, really break my heart. Flying is inherently risky, but when well managed those risk are worth all the benefits. We need to be truly proficient with the specific aircraft we elect to operate with passengers onboard. After 400 hrs I still get butterflies before each flight, more so if I have passengers. I hope the day never comes when I stop getting them.
when we start becoming vexed by unfamiliarity, the tendency is often to fall back upon what we know. I am a pilot of somewhat limited experience, say, 220 hrs or so, and have just recently purchased my first airplane "upgrade", after finally feeling that I'd outgrown my first plane, a Piper Cherokee. I figured "ok, now I just gotta get myself endorsed on CSU and retractable and I'm good to go". My new plane, a Mooney, is a bit of a step up admittedly, but what I ended up getting was like a goddamn type rating certification, and many more hours than I had expected, when all I wanted to do was show my new plane off to friends and such. I now am very grateful for having been forced to do all the extra hours, because during the "transition", I saw numerous examples of how quickly and easily things can come unstuck in am unfamiliar plane. I have tamed the Mooney now, but the most valuable lesson in this cautionary tale is that by doing something really simple, you can improve your chances of surviving each flight considerably. That is, checklists, be thorough, be patient, dont skip the boring bits, dont bemoan the repetitive nature of this task, its like Nike, just do it!
So sad. I'm just starting to get my certification with a course online ( no flying with instructor or simulation yet) but I'm very grateful for this site. I subscribed and keeps me focused in errors I don't want to commit .
You really should get an introduction flight lesson soon (or more on different aircraft and instructors) to find out if you like to fly and which type, and get a medical exam asap. Good luck and enjoy!
This is so tragic. The young pilot just wanted his family to have a good time, but instead he sent them to the graveyard. The day I will get my licence I will think twice before taking passengers on board on my first flights. Thanks for this informative video.
This is one of the very rare times (as of this posting) that I can comment on a video like this having more experience flying a Cessna 172 than the pilot in question did. Right from the get go I was screaming NO! NO! NO! at the screen, much like my instructor would have done. Moral of the story here, when checking out a different airframe always seek instruction a few times to get accustomed to it from someone with lots of experience, they will not only tell you the basic operating procedures but also other nuances about the aircraft and knowing those can literally mean the difference between life and death, and in this case that certainly rang true.
Kathryn's Report: Cessna 172M Skyhawk, Flight 101 LLC, N9926Q PHILADELPHIA (CN) - Four people died screaming when a Cessna flying out of Michigan lost power and crashed, the families of two passengers claim in court. Dead: Pilot, Troy Brothers, 19, his mother, Sandra Haley, 53, step-father James Haley, 58, and brother-in-law, Jamie Jose, 35.
Family 100% because even with the change of aircraft its always good practice to glance at the flight surfaces and make sure everything is in the correct orientation, and I'm sure without the distraction, excitement of taking your family up you would be a lot more vigilant. Just an opinion obviously
this is the reason my instructor told me to set the flaps at 10° when doing the walkaround. It's not a requirement according to the POH but I like to do one anyway (it's always good to know they work, right?). If you then ever forget to retract them again (which will only happen if you're not thorough with your checklists) it's not a huge problem, a 172/150 can take off with 10° flaps without issue.
TVT: I recommend running the flaps all the way down for preflight inspection. This is standard on many or most other planes. Besides, you can not truly confirm they are working without full extension.
Had to look it up. The 66 with the Continental 145 engine had electric 40* flaps and the switch does NOT have up/down detents at all... spring loaded up/ down/center off. NO takeiff flaps recommended.
Those old C172 flap switches almost caught me out badly once - I'd done most of my training on C152s, with detents for the different flap settings. I was flying an older C172 with the switch similar to the one here, except it wasn't spring-loaded, so if you switched it to extend, it would keep going until they were fully extended. I joined the pattern, and started with my pre-landing checks and extended the flaps to 10 degrees, but then forgot about the switch. Next I knew I was trying to figure out why my airspeed was decaying, then looked around and noticed the great big barn doors hanging off the wings. Never made that mistake again.
Ya, same. Scary stuff. Only with the 150's my flight school has, I think they may have installed the switch upside down? In my opinion, if flaps are toggle, they should always be spring loaded back to neutral. Accidential full deployment can kill someone. It makes sence to have the retracts up with no spring force however to save workload during a full flap go-around.
There was another key error here. For whatever reason the airplane would not accelerate or climb, which can happen for any number of reasons related to the aerodynamic configuration or the powerplant. You don't always have the opportunity to figure that out in time. But what ever the reason, YOU CAN'T KEEP PULLING BACK ON THE COLUMN! Whatever he did in screwing up the takeoff configuration, the bottom line is that this is a stall accident. An experienced pilot would have or should have put the nose down and accepted the consequences. The laws of physics decided that the airplane would not fly. You can either land under control, or lose control and crash, but going down is a done deal. There is no other choice, unless you are quick enough to figure out the problem. He didn't have enough experience to overcome the futile urge to try and stay in the air.
im pretty sure that if he had just put the airplane in a cruise position (I mean not climbing or descending) he could save it anyway, but yeah the procedure that cfi teach is to land immediately, its always better to break the landing gear rather than dyeing
Hernan Pastenes yes if he figured it out in time he would have been able to accelerate. But either way, continuing to pull was suicide. If that had happened to him after he had built up a few hundred hrs he might have figured it out.
You don't have to hold the switch in the up position for retraction. Down requires constant downward pressure until you get what you want, but there is an up position - which carries a few hazards of its own.
