The D7/ktinga is one of my favorite ships in scifi,top 3,and even higher up ............then the original enterprise. Yes I know that's blasphemy but it looks so aggressive it's just badass.
Am I the only one that is ridiculously excited to see the re-imagined Klingon Cruisers in Discovery? D7 is one of my fav designs in any Sci-Fi and I really hope they do it justice.
Love the side by side comparison concept. If this is going to be an ongoing theme I have a couple is suggestions for upcoming episodes. Constitution & Connie refit Excelsior & enterprise B Bridges of the Constellation " " of the galaxy Class The two "Ambassador classes" The two Single nacelle TOS era ships.
As a classic film/Tv nerd I would like to speculate on the color issue. It was well known by people in the industry of the time that some colors looked different in real life than on the screen. It would come as no surprise to anyone involved that the ship would look grey. In fact it would look a better light gray than if they painted it gray. The problem being that when placed in front of a blue screen some of the blue would reflect on the model and you would see the projection of space on parts of the surface of the model. There where two main ways around this. Use a bright fill light to wash away the blue, but it also washes away detail. This was done on the Enterprise,(to get a true white and not a gray) which is why you cant see the deflector grind on screen in TOS. It was modeled with grid lines. The other is to paint your model in light greens that will show up as gray when filmed, but do not need as harsh a lighting and loss of detail to avoid problems with the blue screen. I Imagine that the Motion Picture D-7 was colored green for similar reasons. So in short I believe that gray was in fact the color that they wanted, the green was there to achieve that look on screen.
Captain and Commander, I really like the rationalisations you guys come up with for the discrepancies in continuity and variations in models, etc. Very creative!
You have to get into the Klingon mindset. That's not a forward torpedo tube that's the forward garbage disposal unit since they would have been shooting at the Enterprise.
Hmm, I always had the impression that the K'tinga was originally a refit(roughly the same size as D7) but then replaced D7's in production and a new K'tinga because it wasn't being refit over a D7 was able to be smaller when new off the production line.
🖖😎👍Very cool and very nicely well done and executed in every detail way shape and form on this subject matter on the D-7 & K'T'inga class Klingon Battle Cruisers, And I myself have always loved the Design of both these ships as well as various other Klingon designs with in the formats of these two vessels indeed!,👌.
Catching up on Trekyard videos. I haven't watched any in well over a month or more. Fitting that I start with the D7/Katinga video which is one of my favs ships.
I have always seen this as THE Klingon ship pattern. D-7 was IT and then I saw ST: TMP and loved the revised details as well. I can see both as compliments to each other in the Klingon Fleet
I am tempted to say that the K'tinga is more of a warship than the old D-7, with the D-7 being more of an explorer or perhaps having more space for marines, and would be a closer match with the TOS Connie, maybe not as heavily armed as the later model. The K'Tinga, in contrast, would be more heavily armed, the result of increased contact with the Romulans leading to an emphasis on torpedo launchers and losses to Kirk spuring production of a ship to out gun the TOS Connie, but maybe at the expense of range. I do like the idea of the D-7 being a code, maybe make the K'Tinga a D-8.
I don't think the loss of colour was intentional, it appeared washed out as a byproduct of the transference. I also subscribe to the Ktinga being an update but it doesn't necessarily have to been the same hull, they could simply have upgraded the production design so it was a later model of the same class.
I'm more in line with it being an evolution of the same line. The original D-7A (per FASA) being the TOS version and the D-7M being the later K'tinga refit (with several stops along the way of other fun variants)
I am always VERY careful about canon size numbers from licensed trek sources... remember the sloppy DS9 Tech Manual ship tables?? If I take a look at a ship I try to find an airlock (which is by nature about human-sized) or windows. And on the KTinga I can see two rows of windows within the mask-like striping around the bow alone. Either those are ridiculously small windows (or the bridge dome is oversized) or the 214m can't really add up. Also that shuttle bay must be hell to park in without scatching the shuttle roof and bottom.
Han Sebi would such an estimation account for the fact that Klingons tend to be fractionally taller and have a more bulky build than your typical human?
In the TMP novel, the K'tinga is the refitted and upgraded D-7, in much the same way that the Enterprise is refitted after completing the five-year-mission. It makes sense, the D-7 and origina Constitution Class are supposed to be roughly equivalent. The novel has it that the Federation drone is spying on the Klingon ships at the start as they intercept "the cloud", and Kirk notes that the K'tinga has heavier weapons and more shielding and that StarFleet strategists are worried it might be more than a match for even the refitted Constitution ships.
As is well known , the Klingon empire is located in a relatively resource poor area of the galaxy. Henceforth the k’tinga is a slightly scaled down in size D7 with the savings applied to the inside of the ship. Upgraded weapons, drive and tech. Makes sense to me.
One thing about the Dinky ship I've always likes and that I'd like to see sometime applied to a Movie era Romulan K'Tinga would be the colour blue or perhaps orange/copper or dove gray, even two tone black and grey or other colours as using Star Trek Nemesis as a source there is Copper coloured and Green Romulan ships there.. so why wouldn't the Romulans tweak the colours - (some rare Fedederation ships are odd colours like Red) so I'd see a Blue Romulan ship with the bird of Prey painted on the underside as a lovely look for the late 23rd Century Romulan fleet. also if they travel in 3's why not colour each of them different as a matter of convention (sort of borrowing an idea from Transformers "Seekers" in a way. I'd like that. I always though the toys look cool in blue - but that that blue would suit the Romulans more than the Klingons.
i really dont like the idea that they just slapped another hull over the old enterprise, it seems like a horribly inefficient route. Also, I read in one of the novels a pretty decent description of the refit progress. theres even a tense scene that takes place in the gutted engineering hull. and iirc it describes the primary hull being taken down to the surface of earth for much of its work... so thats another point that JJ may not have got so wrong lol.
DrewLSsix exactly.... That would be like putting linoleum overtop of existing 70s shag carpeting and drywall overtop of faux wood paneling...or trying to watch A Bluray on a 60s black and white using an HDMI connected to a Tricolor connected to a coaxial connected to alligator clips
It strikes me as very unlikely that they would just put the new hull on top of the old. I think it's much more likely that they stripped the original hull plating completely off of the ship, then maybe reinforced the skeletal spaceframe somehow (accounting for the additional bulk/size) before adding on the new hull plating.
You heard it from the mouth of the guy who worked on the show. The K’tinga is a refit of the D7. And almost everyone who worked on blueprints Fan or professional, made the K’tinga larger than the D7.
The thing about the D7's "scout" designation is it's a Klingon designation. Klingon scouting consists of going somewhere, blowing up everything you find there, and then reporting that you found nothing but a debris field. The D7 is well suited to such scouting missions.
I really think these are the same class of ship. Evidence in the Next Generation era shows when they would encounter and old D7 it always used the new or more detailed model, never a less detailed smoother model that more closely matched what appeared on the original series. For example the one the Voyager encountered in the Delta quadrant that had been in space for a century and the one encountered by the Enterprise with Klingons in cryostasis thinking they were still at War yet both had the more detailed hull. I think this is an incidence of this is what they were meant to look like all along they just couldn't afford the detail on the original ship and knew that it be watched primarily on small black and white televisions so "wink wink nod nod This Is How They always were" I think is the true answer; and the other versions we've seen on Star Trek TOS were just due to the Enterprise's low definition screen, the computer rendering the ship on The View screen with rough Graphics based on limited information gathered by the sensors or due to space interference, again with a wink and a nod :-)
As for the D-7 Being green - I had no idea it was green until about a year ago - it didn't register to me either that the'd changed the colour in Trials and Tribulations. I had seen the D7- as a light blue/grey with an even lighter belly and perhaps bridge and engineering module due to a combination of the early toys and also the colours on the Animated series. I was pretty surprised to find out the model was green. it's a bit like when you see the Enterprise D is this peculiar duck egg blue - in that case I absolutely am glad it came off grey on screen - but for the D-7 I'd have preferred a hint of blue. But I guess the light green on a D-7 does tie nicely to the lighter green used on some 24th century Klingon ships too. Perhaps one idea is to get a bit revisionist and decide to make the Klingon D-7 one colour and the Romulan one another colour. Considering this is an issue that might come to light on Discovery they are in a position to make same choices there about if a D-7 is decorated or not is a K'tinga as well or not (as Voyager flubbed the mistake and implied on screen). So I'd say to the Disco team if they are ever in a position to show a D-7 (it would probably be Klingon) Pick a colour and run with it.
Remember what Kirk said in ST VI? He said that he had never seen the Klingon ships that close. That leaves the door wide open for the more detailed versions seen in TMP and IV. Don't you think?
Revell does a very fine model of the D-7 that's much larger than the old (but still good) AMT model and its surface detail is based on the Trials and Tribulations TV model. It may have just gone out of production so its best to get one if you see it.
My theory on the photon torpedo for the D7/KTinga is that it is not actually launched from the deflector dish but is actually just under the dish making it appear to come from the deflector.
The fractionally smaller size could be the result of an advancement in shielding and or metallurgy that would allow the bulkier old smooth armor be removed and a newer textured armor that was lighter and thinner used as a replacement? Sort of like the way tank armor evolved in the 20th century or in the 19th century iron clad naval ship replaced timber sailing vessels
Do one on the D9 dreadnaught from STO. I have one, it’s pretty great! Also have an atlas-class prototype dreadnaught on my TOS character. It’s a sexy beast Only thing missing that I want is the T6 constitution and Durgath temporal dreadnaught. I’ve only seen one of either of those in the wild.
Nice talk. As to the ship color variation from true to film appearance, could we... explain that away be considering the celestial light sources involved in each view? A view taken in a nebula diffused light might have a different color due to the gases of the nebula and type of perhaps a red giant, as opposed to a view in clear direct white dwarf light. Colored light does cause other colors to appear as different colors.
I always thought the K'tinga class should be slightly larger. It was their main cruiser for decades after. And by "slightly" I mean at least 300m long.
Actually the D-7 is the Klolode class and the K’Tinga is not an upgrade to an existing Klolode class hull but is completely a different class altogether
2 BITS: First, it is Canon that D7 battlecruisers had Phasers mounted on the Command Section, shown in TAS, and Disruptors mounted on the Nacelles (TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9 & VOY). It is therefore my assertion that the D7s & K'tingas firing Red Beams in DS9 are Phasers. Second, I believe the K'tinga to be a similar class, not the same as a true D7 Refit but close. It was a Next Gen class of ship of similar design to the D5, D6 and D7 that preceded it. Also, for your edification, memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/File:K%27t%27inga_class_bridge_layout_sketches_by_Andrew_Probert.jpg
As I recall from the TMP novelization Kirk considers the K'tinga to be a new class of ship that was superior to the D7. There was probably also a cold war tech race going on which necessitated the Enterprise getting an upgrade to keep the Federation competitive with the Klingon war machine.
I though that Klingon ships in the diagrams and references I've seen have 2 seperate Matter/Antimatter reactors on different sides of the wings? It would make sense as Star Trek was the U.S. as the Federation and the Klingon's as the Soviets, and our Nuclear Subs only had 1 reactor compared to the U.S.S.R. Subs having 2.
i like your removed armor theory, but have you guys noticed the neck seems new? a new neck could have been a bit shorter. i personally think what you are really dealing with is a ship that was built and in use in some fashion for a hundred years, so some variations are understandable. excelsiors are another ship that were used for a similar time period. great stuff otherwise.
James Axelrad the armor theory could work with a new short neck. Say advancements in both armor and safety bulkheads made a short neck more feasible. A D7 goes into dry dock, the old neck is removed then the engineering and command modules go to separate facilities for overhaul and then are reattached with a shorter but stronger neck.
It could also be that on at least some ships the neck sections have failed inspection and been deemed and scrapped. The smaller neck would likely be a bit stronger from reduced stresses and maybe give a slight kick to the ship's manouveribility. The back story on the Belknap class strike cruisers uses that idea. That not all of the constitution class engineering hulls where usable, so the class was built using existing completed saucers and a new smaller hull that was big enough for only the deflector, engineering section, shuttle hammer and maintenance baths, and a smaller cargo section.
oh goody a channel for the trek nerd in me I need this I NEED THIS I COMMAND YOU TO NEVER STOP sorry my inner nerd tried to escape so sorry please carry on
The official sizes for the D7 and K'Tinga are way too small, like at 214m the attachment of the head module to the neck would be little thicker than a crawl space... I have no idea where the discrepancy in length between the D7 and K'Tinga came from, I'd think logically they'd be identical in size.
Could the inside of the deflector dish have a torpedo launcher in the centre as a photon torpedo launcher wouldn't use all the space of the deflector dish and the outside would be a deflector dish.
Jaden Desveaux I don't know about that. There might be some contrary power interactions. I'm thinking that the energy discharge from the firing of the torp might damage the deflector.
Wouldn't the D-7 vs K'tinga be like the difference between the YF-17 vs F/A-18 vs X-53 vs F/A-18E/F All three are the same basic design and all different sizes. They are an evolution of the same basic design. YF-17 can't be upgraded to a F/A-18a Hornet and a F/A-18A can't be upgraded to the E/F But the F/A-18A/B can be upgraded to the standard of the C/D but the E/F is too different to grade. The F/A-18A/B/C/D can be upgraded or converted to a X-53 if so desired or even with some work to the CF-188 The D-7 to me is the Hornet and the K'tinga is the Super Hornet. They look basically the same but are clearly different. The D-7 likely had the ability to be upgraded with many of the advancements of the K'tinga which would explain the size differences. This is further seen in things like the US Navy with the Arleigh Burke Class of Destroyers. Each "flight" has a different displacement and one actually is long and has a different crew compliment. The Flight IIA ships are 4m longer and have 20 more crew. Early Arleigh Burke ships can be upgraded but can't be made longer. For me that is how I see the D-7 and K'tinga The D7 is a ship design that was built in several waves some with minor differences and would have went through modernization upgrades at various points. It may have even been regulated to Flat heads. The K'tinga is an evolution of the class larger and a full battle Cruiser which we ever see a flat head serve on. After the Reversal the augmentation virus that caused the flat head and the ability for Flat Heads to be made "true" Klingon's again perhaps that D-7s were retrofitted to look more like K'tinga's as a symbolic home coming during a retrofit.
