I do not see that it is one or the other. You do not necessary loose form when doing brick sessions. That is a matter of mindfulness about what you are doing.
I think practicing bricks is a huge training and confidence boost to understand how your body feels and practice pacing. Curious if James incorporated them during his prime?
My opinion on the subject is that Brick sessions are important but they don't need to be very long i.e. 10-15mins max. Just enough time to go from "brick" legs to finding your running legs. Agree that its more important in short course.
I think the reason we don’t do swim-bike transitions as much is because they’re logistically difficult. It means keeping your bike in a safe place while you swim and racing round in a car park at best. If you’re in a pool, it’s a hard sell to let them run through the leisure centre in just your swim gear, sopping wet!
6:07 I don’t buy James’s argument here because the reason you blow up isn’t “I feel great so I’ll smash it.” The reason I blow up is I have no feel of the pace so I run really hard at the start, feeling slow. Having brick sessions helps you hold back because that “sluggish” feeling is actually faster than it feels!
Great debate! The interview with Björn Geeseman on the How They Train podcast is super interesting for this discussion. He explains that he thinks brick sessions are essential for age groupers, so that they know how they feel what the start of the run feels like and for confidence. He also pays attention to the goal of the session (from 1:23 onwards). He also talks about making sure you have enough fuel to do your brick session. However, he thinks there is usually no physiological benefit necessarily.
My team does one pre-race workout that we call Brick-Ass: 3 brick sessions back-to-back-to-back. Usually, the entire team does it together, starting in a parking lot and transitioning every half hour on the half-hour. It really teaches pacing. If you go out too hard in the first run, the final run is a real sufferfest. The goal is to be nearly-even paced for all 3 bikes and all 3 runs or even negative split.
Great point! Training is not a cookie cutter system. It's super important to find what works for you. You may find one side of this our arguments resonates with you more 🙌
On a separate note-I use them for simulating the feeling of how much effort is required to do two hard efforts/or race pace efforts back to back you don’t have to run badly to do that. Yeah-what you said mark-and the time efficiency thing-not really for the brick weird leg feeling.
I look at a brick session slightly differently and in James court here. Use it for an ironman and 70.3 to feel the intensity of a lengthy bike followed up with a lengthy run to test nutrition so I don't fall short on a race day, less in the sense of finding my running legs. It has helped tremendously. The brick sessions as we know them are a pretty much waste of time.
This is every point I've had with every coach and coaching platform I've signed up for in one discussion. Mind Bending ... Suggested Title: TriMind Debate
"You get better at what you do." I'm in the very early stages of my triathlon career and am only doing sprint distances at the moment but my approach to brick sessions is to, once a month, do a full swim, bike, run session at a relaxed pace paying attention to being comfortable and having good form.
Interesting discussion. I use longer bike-run brick sessions as part of my normal training, not just for race prep or simulation. Currently 75 min bike then 45 min run, all aiming for zone 2. They allow me to get in longer sessions, and run on slightly tired legs without having the pounding on the joints that a long run only would. Plus, I get longer recovery between sessions than I would if I did, say, separate bike in the morning and run in the evening. I'm definitely pro-brick.
Over time I've realized I need more bike run bricks bec I'm a rather larger muscular triathlete and my quads are pumped after cycling and running on them is always like dragging tree trunks. This off season I plan on running off the bike 90%workouts. Even if it's for a mile zone 2,3 I need the muscle memory and adaption further. I've been missing top spot on podiums by seconds too often not to do this
What i did to work towards my triathlons was of course the individual event training. Then about once per week I would go to the gym and ride a stationary bike(i dont have my own bike, I borrow for the races) then go run outside right away, then get straight into the pool at the gym. Now I've only ever done sprint triathlons, so the way I would practice the above mentioned would be about 6.2 miles biking, run a 5k, and swim 500-750 meters. And sometimes I would do a bike then swim set. That way i could incorporate the swim in my brick. By the way, I love this "coach vs. coach" setting. Just to hear different perspectives! Keep it up!
i agree w/ scottwaltondev on the logistics being a barrier to swim/bike bricks. when swimming, i occasionally do a few deck-ups w/ a fast walk/slow jog around the pool to 'simulate' the swim exit. after all, we don't immediately hop out of the water and jump on our bikes, we have to run >500m to T1. and, on my one 'long day' each week I reverse the order and do a run -> bike brick for 2 reasons, 1) running on fresh legs is a good strategy to fend off injury and 2) biking on tired legs is a good way to simulate the later stages of an IM bike leg.
You're already committing to a 1hr+ bike ride...just add a 10min run on. The begenning part of the brick is where the adaptation expectation is. Same thing with your swims. You're already doing 1hr+ swim sessions...just add 10min on a trainer. No need to do it on every workout, but those longer sessions you already have on the calendar. Just tack 10min on the end for the brick.
I do a 'lazy brick' after my weekly swim training - 1h pool swim coaching with the club then a 5 mile ride to work on the cyclocross bike (extra resistance). This makes the swim to bike very natural. Training for the Outlaw this year (my first full distance) I did 2x bike-run bricks. One was a ride to the river, open water swim, ride home then run a half marathon all at steady pace. The other was a 5k run after a 185k bike ride. This was probably more a confidence booster than a good physical training session.
Long course training: 2 out of 3 bike workouts had a 20min run at the end. Race rehearsals (full bike distance) 5 and 3 weeks out had a 40min run at the end. Worked extremely well for me. I’m onboard with a short run after the bike, teaches you to run fatigued without the injury risk of too many long runs.
Swim to bike for me is more about just standing up. I am amazed at the way the pro's hit the beach/shore jump straight up and start running to transition. I generally have a trouble recognising which way is up :) The bike to run is definitely different though. Your legs do feel strange when you start the run after a long bike, but once you have experienced it a couple of times. Certainly towards the end of the Barcelona Bike I was aching so much that I wondered how I would be able to run at all, but after 5 mins I almost forgot that I had been on the bike for 7 hours. I"m not sure that a brick session helps really. I'm talking from an ironman perspective.
My vote is yes on brick sessions. I am lucky my house is lakefront so jump in water, swim then jump on bike, then a short run. The value is knowing how one feels from going to one sport to another. Also trains the mind knowing fatigue will be an issue and how to control it. AH... the mind games. Love this format. Would be nice to invite pros into this segment or even coaches to compliment presenters.
run-swim-run if you live nearish to your gym/pool location. I do this monthly (except when its snowing) and its not too difficult. I just run in my speedo with shorts over top + shirt. have a small running backpack with my goggles and swim cap and small towel. = 3.5 mi run --> 1 mile swim non stop --> 3.5 mi run back home, max out the final 1mi.
I love this video series. It is wonderful to hear two different opinions and well-substantiated arguments each time. These videos always put a smile on my face. It reminds me kind of a triathlon Statler and Waldorf, I'll leave it up to you who is who 😊
I think the reason for brick run isn't so much about running off of the bike, and more about sneaking extra practice running. A session I like is transitioning from a ride into a 5 minute warm up 4 15 second strides at 180-200 spm with 1:00 at a more comfortable stride with a 5 minute cool down. Sneaking in some speed skills training. A 15 minute run session on it's own doesn't give you anything more than working on form, but tack it on to a 90 minute ride and now you have a solid workout.
If you're really keen and believe in the physical adaptation of brick sessions, why not do short bike > run > bike > run sessions in succession. Otherwise, I imagine the main benefit of brick sessions is just to prevent you from being shocked on race day as to how your muscles feel after each transition.
+1 on the convergence. Bricks needed but shorter the longer you go. I do them but usually the run is 20-30 mins after hard bikes. It for sure is convenient timewise 😊
@@gtn It prepares you for knowing how you feel running after a hard bike; I also believe there is some adaptation happening, so it becomes easier with time (not sure if it is psychological or physiological) But after 1-2 months of doing 2-3 bricks per week; you run with lower HR at the same pace after hard bike rides (like almost same HR as if you had not ridden before). Note that I usually run well below my AeT or LT1 after hard rides not to get a workout just to get use to it
bike run bricks are my favorite triathlon workouts. Something about it feels more fun than just doing a bike or a run on its own. I don't really do swim bricks just because of the inconvenience of it, I just leave it mostly till race day or a few days before race day.
Great discussion. I think the more experienced athletes can do less brick sessions as their bodies will have a good amount of muscle memory of the impact of running after a bike. If you have trained your body to have a similar cadence riding and running, brick sessions are required even less. I think the best thing about brick sessions is that they can give you some confidence to know that if you are feeling bad when you start running, that will change shortly, and you will be able to get into a good rhythm with some patience.
Flora Duffy said in one interview that she never does brick sessions, and she mostly races short formats. I personally like brick sessions, but that declaration from Flora Duffy and now that discussion of yours made me think about the real efficacity of this training.
I recently completed Augusta 70.3 last month, finished in 5h 30m, and I didn't do a single brick (bike to run) session, and boy do I regret it. I PR'd my bike and went hard, and when I got to the run, my tired legs were just not used to supporting my weight (72KG) after working so hard. I was in pain from step 1 until my last step over the finish line. In training I had done half marathon sessions in the 1:45 - 1:50 mark and felt great, so I was way over confident when I did the race. I thought for sure I would finish in under 2 hours, and I finished in 2:03. I have learned my lesson. I have my next 70.3 in May 2024 and I will absolutely introduce brick runs into my training at least once a week. Even a simple 5-10km run after a ride I think will be extremely beneficial.
Great topic to debate! In my first year of triathlon, I did them once a week in the weeks leading up to my race, mainly for confidence. Now I don't do them at all. I never have a problem running fast off the bike, or getting going on the bike after swimming. I'd rather focus on maintaining the quality of my sessions and do them separately.
I've only ever done Sprint and Olympic distance races. But my two cents are: All my best runs have come from when I've hit several hard brick sessions in the lead-up. When I say hard, I mean running hard off the bike for a short period of time (10 mins of running max), with good form, to the extent this is possible. I don't see much point in going for a long run right off a long bike.
For seasoned triathletes they are not really necessary unless you are trying to figure out your run pacing. You would need to do the full distance of the ride at race pace or close to it and then a brick run while asking yourself "Could I hold this pace for the entire distance of my race run?"
I think I’m beginning to agree with James. For my first 70.3 I did Bricks but I would say ended up overtrained at least a month before the event - took me 8H to complete . The 2nd 70.3, cut my training way down, didn’t do any bricks, and completed in 6h15min. Both races similar difficulty in terms of elevation. May be a fluke but we shall see this year! Will likely not do bricks this year either
I find them really important, especially after a long bike. Every time I get off the bike and start running, I feel I'm running EASILY 45 seconds slower per KM, and then the first beep of my watch shows me I'm running at my usual pace. Each time, I get shocked and I think the watch is broken. It feels sooo weird. I think getting used to that feeling, whether that makes you perform better or not, it is important to trust your body better. Also to trust that the first 5K will feel very different than a fresh run and know your body to know when it starts feeling a little bit better, so you don't freak out (like I did in my first IM).
I think James did have the better counter arguments this time. Next week James should be for the affirmative side, and Mark the against. Test James' mass debating skills 😂 Which leads me to the segment name - The Coaches Mass Debate 👍
The swim to run transition is an underrated difficult part of the race. I’d argue there should be more focus on swim-bike brick. Whether for simulating race conditions or because there’s a real physiological benefit, bricks are useful.
Practice makes perfect. It's good to practice different areas of these races. So when you come to do it in a race your body has adapted better to it. Maybe do a bit of both. One or two sessions of both hard and not so hard. Or better yet. Do an experiment with it and see if it makes a difference.
Brick sessions solve 3 issues: Calf cramps when running of the bike, running technique and pacing your run when tired. With enough training and race experience you wont need brick sessions anymore.
I’m no good at coming up with creative names, but one debate that I feel is practically inevitable is: using heart rate/pace/power zones, Z1-Z5, vs. training by feel?
The point of "why would you want to run faster at the beginning to just blow up harder later instead of letting your legs warm up" isn't a very strong one I don't think. On your bricks, you can just train to come off the bike slower so you specifically do NOT come out too quickly. I'd argue that is what you would be trying to do in a brick session.
I’m in the boat about bricks being necessary. Not all the time, but I think they’re required. For short course, I practice the whole transition and get a feel for how much my “fresh” running sessions are translating to the run after the bike. I also struggle with cramps after biking at race intensity so I practice effort management on the bike and run. I know you both agreed that for long course it was less important, but for me it was the most important. I did my first 3 hour ride and was going to follow it up with a 5k run (training for 70.3). I cramped 0.5 miles into that run and actually had a really hard time getting my heart rate below 130bpm for a couple hours after that session. I went on to get blood work done and thankfully everything was fine, so I knew I had to re-assess my nutrition strategy. I made some changes and executed them during my first 70.3. After the bike I ran the entire 13.1 miles with no cramping and I was only a few minutes off my run goal time. Had I not tried the big brick session I think my first ever 70.3 would have been a disaster.
I always find very easy coming out the water to the bike as not using same muscle groups. Bike to run if i doesn't practice , i get jello legs after pushing hard.
After 3-4 years I no longer had any trouble transitioning bike to run, and haven’t done one on purpose since. I think you just get used to it. I do however come home from the pool and go for a short run often 😂.
Though I did do well to place 1st and 2nd in my Age Group at my first duathlon and second oly distance triathlon respectively without any brick sesh, and I did have good times than I expected too, but I still think that if I have added brick sessions on my week by week training plan, I could've gone faster off the bike. I just realized it now that I've been doing more oftenly. I do remember that my legs used to feel really bad the moment I start to run off the bike, but I was able to somehow recover on those occasions. So I'm really looking forward to my performance next season now that I am able to rectify those mistakes.
I actually think bricks are key for getting a good pacing. lately, I´ve been learning to shorten the stride and increasing cadence for the start when legs are wobbly, which is leading to far better runs, faster and with less effort :)
I dont really enjoy brick sessions. I usually like to put all my effort into my bike session and not leave anything in the tank. Although, for the upcoming tri season I think I will introduce 1 run of the bike per week. But I think it only needs to be 2-3km. The first km off the bike is the most important to practise anyway. I also find running off the bike in training always feels harder than in a race because in the race, its all exciting, there a people cheering, you have adrenaline, you have fuelled better, so it seems easier.
I do brick sessions, more in the season of competition, even brick intervals cause it’s so fun. It would be interesting if it would be possible to test how much or little it effects your race if you been doing brick sessions or not. Probably not possible.
I don’t do brick sessions but I do simulate a whole event prior to entering it. Before my first sprint triathlon I did my own, before my first half marathon I did my own. It gives me a benchmark time to train under. Thinking of entering Weymouth 70.3 next year so you know what that means!
According to "The Grip" in a response asking about swim/bike bricks "Indeed those are also something to work on. In some ways the swim to bike transition is physiologically more difficult because of what you just said (horizontal to vertical, back tightness, and of course upper body and lower body muscle transition). But it is earlier in the race and often easier. The bike to run is tougher because of the fatigue that has built up by the time that takes place, and thus is much more important to practice. And finally, it is essential to practice so that your body knows that the end of the bike is not the time for a sandwich and a nap, but time to go run!" ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-mNBNYlh_YP8.html
Would you recommend athletes that have trouble combining a good bike and a good run but can do either well to practice brick run or would you say work the bike harder ?
Is there a benefit to the increased volume with a brick session? Is there a benefit to doing 4 hour brick session, vs riding 2.5 hours one day and running 90 minutes the next day?
Many triathletes believe bricks are necessary as it is difficult to transition from cycling to running, according to countless triathletes I've known and trained with in various clubs. Bricks involving swim to bike are fine, but not as necessary, according to so many triathletes I've trained with and competed against, because most triathletes here in the SoCal are using their arms more, or in many cases, exclusively their arms during the swim because it's rare to not be in a wetsuit for the swim. Again, this anecdotal given the small sample, a few hundred triathletes over the years I've known and trained with. if you travel to warmer areas, then this does change how many triathletes swim. Even if you are a very good swimmer utilizing your legs in the swim, as this is proper and better, going from swimming to running is far easier and doesn't feel the same as going from a bike to a run, again, according to the majority of triathletes I've trained and competed with here in SoCal. Personally, my training does include bike to run bricks and swim to bike bricks. i also do a "sprint distance" swim to bike to run training session, usually once a month to round out my training.
I can't believe that you think bricks are a questionable training tactic. Ironman distance is the only distance where I don't do many bricks. Training for Olympic distance and sprints must include bricks if you are competitive. And practicing T1 and T2 is critical for competitive athletes. Coming off the bike full gas on the run requires training and strategy. The stride tends to be shorter for the first mile, and cramping can be an issue later in the run without brick training. There definitely is a mental aspect to brick training too; you are preparing for the different sensation in the legs coming off the bike.
I did 3-4 leading up to my last IM and was worried I'd not done enough because everyone else was talking about how many they'd done. I've never had any problem with the transition and didn't on race day. I'd say they are a good way to break up single sport training but not that necessary.
Long course training: 2 out of 3 bike workouts had a 20min run at the end. Race rehearsals (full bike distance) 5 and 3 weeks out had a 40min run at the end. Worked extremely well for me. I’m onboard with a short run after the bike, teaches you to run fatigued without the injury risk of too many long runs.
