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trinities 301 - Dr. Daniel Boyarin on John 1 

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trinities.org/.... Daniel Boyarin is the Hermann P. and Sophia Taubman Professor of Talmudic Culture in the Departments of Near Eastern Studies and Rhetoric at the University of California at Berkeley. He is the author of more than a dozen scholarly books and more than 150 scholarly articles in English and in Hebrew. He has been called one of the greatest living Talmudic scholars. Many Christians interested in historical theology or apologetics have read his work on ancient Jewish and Christian theologies, including his book The Jewish Gospels and his weightier Border Lines: The Partition of Judaeo-Christianity.
In this episode I present and explain some of his thoughts on interpreting the famous Prologue to the Gospel According to John. This is in his appendix called “Logos, a Jewish Word: John’s Prologue as Midrash,” in The Jewish Annotated New Testament, and in his book Border Lines. For Dr. Boyarin,
Until v. 14, John’s Prologue is a piece of perfectly unexceptional Jewish thought. . .
I start by explaining some of his interesting ideas about how one variegated religious scene split into two wholly separate religions in the 100s and 200s, and how the rabbinic movement changed the mix of Jewish theologies in late ancient and early medieval times.
The way Dr. Boyarin reads the opening of the fourth gospel, it is a unified whole; it is pointless to speculate about a pre-existing “Logos hymn” which the author has allegedly pasted in, and then he or another redactor modified it - some alleyways (arguably, dead-ends) much-explored in 20th c. scholarship. Boyarin argues that verses 1-5 are a “midrash” on the opening of Genesis 1, a sort of exposition of it using a later text in the Hebrew Bible, in this case, Proverbs 8. The rest of the prologue, he argues, explains how God’s wisdom eventually finds its fullest expression in Jesus. Like me, he understands that Jesus enters the scene at v. 14: “and the Word became flesh and dwelled among us.”
Do you find his interpretation of John 1 plausible? Why or why not?
Links for this episode @ trinities.org/...
Dr. Boyarin’s homepage
Dr. Boyarin’s publications
The Jewish Annotated New Testament
interview with co-editor Dr. Amy-Jill Levine
Border Lines: The Partition of Judaeo-Christianity
The Jewish Gospels: The Story of the Jewish Christ
“No ‘Judaism’ In Josephus”
“Enoch or Jesus? The Quest of the Historical Metatron”
other trinities podcast episodes on John 1
Numbers 11:23; Jeremiah 1:2; Sirach 24:1-34; Wisdom 7:22-10:21; Baruch 3:9-4:4; Genesis 1:1-5; Proverbs 8:22-36; John 1:1-18; Proverbs 8:30; Wisdom 9:9.
This week’s thinking music is “Desert Castles” by Little Glass Men.
Weekly podcast exploring views about the Trinity, and more generally about God and Jesus in Christian theology and philosophy. Debates, interviews, and historical and contemporary perspectives. Hosted by philosopher of religion / analytic theologian Dr. Dale Tuggy.
This week's thinking music is "Desert Castles" by Little Glass Men. freemusicarchi...

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4 окт 2024

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Комментарии : 36   
@a.t.6322
@a.t.6322 3 года назад
I think Dr. Daniel Boyarin is one of the most honest scholars I've ever heard or read. He knows both rabbinic Judaism and catholic Christianity emerged fully after the destruction of the Second Temple. Both held much more in common with each other as forms of thought within Judaism before they each introduced new writings and innovations in order to properly delineate their respective faith streams.
@theguyver4934
@theguyver4934 6 месяцев назад
Just like biblical and historical evidence proves that jesus and his apostles were vegatarians biblical and historical evidence also proves that the trinity, atonement, original sin and hell are very late misinterpretations and are not supported by the early creed hence its not a part of Christianity I pray that Allah swt revives Christianity both inside and out preserves and protects it and makes its massage be witnessed by all people but at the right moment, place and time The secred text of the Bible says ye shall know them by their fruits So too that I say to my christian brothers and sisters be fruitful and multiply Best regards from a Muslim ( line of ismail )
@ShakeelEklegomai
@ShakeelEklegomai 3 месяца назад
Catholic is heresy
@irreview
@irreview 4 года назад
I look forward to reading your article on Oxford Handbooks. Love your channel and the references to Plato's Timaeus, Philo of Alexandria. All very important reading which modern theists are detached from today. As a Muslim , I find your work on ancient philosophy and first century Christianity invaluable. Thanks for all your hard work.
@theguyver4934
@theguyver4934 6 месяцев назад
Just like biblical and historical evidence proves that jesus and his apostles were vegatarians biblical and historical evidence also proves that the trinity, atonement, original sin and hell are very late misinterpretations and are not supported by the early creed hence its not a part of Christianity I pray that Allah swt revives Christianity both inside and out preserves and protects it and makes its massage be witnessed by all people but at the right moment, place and time The secred text of the Bible says ye shall know them by their fruits So too that I say to my christian brothers and sisters be fruitful and multiply Best regards from a Muslim ( line of ismail )
@MarcP5267
@MarcP5267 Год назад
This subject interests new a lot. That it’s very possible that John 1 is a Jewish concept / invention and not created by “another religion”
@janddbackup
@janddbackup 4 года назад
Jesus is LORD
@Sirach144
@Sirach144 11 месяцев назад
Never is LORD applies to Jesus which would mean Jesus is Jehovah. But he’s not
@theguyver4934
@theguyver4934 6 месяцев назад
@@Sirach144 Just like biblical and historical evidence proves that jesus and his apostles were vegatarians biblical and historical evidence also proves that the trinity, atonement, original sin and hell are very late misinterpretations and are not supported by the early creed hence its not a part of Christianity I pray that Allah swt revives Christianity both inside and out preserves and protects it and makes its massage be witnessed by all people but at the right moment, place and time The secred text of the Bible says ye shall know them by their fruits So too that I say to my christian brothers and sisters be fruitful and multiply Best regards from a Muslim ( line of ismail )
@theophilusmartins5822
@theophilusmartins5822 4 месяца назад
Jesus is Lord!
@JohnQPublic11
@JohnQPublic11 4 года назад
@23:30 In the Old Testament sometimes angels were messengers and sometimes YHVH's Holy Spirit is the messenger manifesting itself as a single human being or multiple human beings or even an angel. And on at least one occasion YHVH HIMSELF manifests as a burning bush.
@JohnQPublic11
@JohnQPublic11 4 года назад
@29:20 --- The second entity is not another person; the second entity is YHVH's Holy Spirit.
@JohnQPublic11
@JohnQPublic11 4 года назад
Again, Wisdom is YHVH's Holy Spirit and HIS Word and HIS Holy Spirit is what becomes flesh when it Creates Yeshua in verse 14.
@robertpavay3606
@robertpavay3606 Год назад
The Holy Spirit became flesh? Its a new view to me. Can you give some link or site where I can read or hear more about that view?
@JohnQPublic11
@JohnQPublic11 9 месяцев назад
@robertpavay3606 ----- Sorry I just saw your questions. ----- A plain and simple reading of the text of John 1:1-13, without any eisegetical fairytales being later read *INTO* the text by Trinitarian fanaticism, makes it clear the Apostle John is talking about the Person Creator GOD YHVH, and that Yeshua does not enter the picture of John’s narrative meaning until verse 14. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>: The universe was Created in Genesis 1:1 when *Creator GOD YHVH* spoke *HIS* Divine Utterance, that is to say, *HIS WORD.* The *WORD*i.e. *HIS WORD,* in John 1:1 is *Creator GOD YHVH’s* Divine Utterance. Jesus Christ does NOT enter the textual prologue of Scripture until John 1:14 when *Creator GOD YHVH* spoke *HIS Divine Utterance* and Jesus Christ was formed into existence, through conception, with Mary's ovum. The *WORD, GODs WORD,* became flesh!!! Period! End of Story! The word in John 1:1 *DOES NOT* mean Jesus, Jesus is eisegetically read into the text by Trinitarians, the word in John 1:1 means “Divine Utterance”. *Creator GOD YHVH* is a single Person, *HE* is known as *GOD the Father,* and *HE, GOD the Father,* has a first Person singular name, *HE, GOD the Father,* tells us HIS first Person singular name in Exodus 3:15, and *HIS* first Person singular name is *YHVH* -------> יְהוָ֞ה = (Yah·weh) = Strongs 3068: the proper name of the God of Israel. --------> *HERE IS THE CORRECT TRANSLATION AND INTERPRETATION OF JOHN 1:1:* In the beginning in John 1:1 is an exact parallelism with Genesis 1:1 1 In the beginning was the Word [YHVH’s, i.e. GOD the Fathers, Word, = Strongs 3056 = λόγος = divine utterance], and the Word [i.e. YHVH’s Word = λόγος = divine utterance] was with God [YHVH, i.e. GOD the Father], and the Word [i.e. GOD the Father’s Word] --[ λόγος = divine utterance] was God [YHVH, i.e. GOD the Father]. 2 *HE/IT* [Οὗτος = it]--[YHVH’s, i.e. GOD the Fathers Word] was in the beginning with God [YHVH]. 3 All things were made through HIM [αὐτοῦ = *IT;* i.e. YHVHs Word], and without HIM [αὐτοῦ = *IT;* i.e. YHVHs Word] was not anything made that was made. 4 In HIM [αὐτοῦ = *IT;* i.e. YHVHs Word] was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 The light [YHVH and or YHVH's Word] shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome *IT;* [YHVH and or YHVH's Word]. 6 There was a man sent from God [YHVH], whose name was John [the Baptist]. 7 He [John the Baptist] came as a witness, to bear witness about the light [YHVH and or YHVH's Word], that all might believe through HIM [YHVH] --- [In the word ”all”, *IT;* cannot be Yeshua because Yeshua is unknown to people who believed prior to Yeshua’s birth]. 8 He [John the Baptist] was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light [YHVH, YHVH's Word, YHVH’s Word becoming flesh]. 9 The true light [YHVH, see above verses 4-8], which gives light to everyone [YHVH], *ἐρχόμενον = WAS COMING* into the world *[In verse 14].* 10 *HE* [YHVH and or YHVH’s Word] was in the world, and the world was made through *HIM* [YHVH and YHVH's Word], yet the world did not know *HIM* [YHVH]. 11 *HE* [YHVH] came to his own [people], and *HIS [YHVH’s]* own people did not receive *HIM [YHVH in the Old Testament].* 12 But to all who did receive *HIM [YHVH in the Old Testament],* who believed in *HIS [YHVH and or YHVH’s Word's]* name, *HE [YHVH]* gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will or of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of *GOD [YHVH].* 14 And [then in 1 A.D.] the Word [YHVH’s Word --[ λόγος = divine utterance] [spoke HIS Only Begotten Son into existence where HE] became flesh and dwelt among us,
@someguyoverthere3275
@someguyoverthere3275 3 года назад
🤔...ok points, but analysis is way off. The Holy Trinity has always been part of the theology of GOD. ...its in the very earliest writing.
@JohnQPublic11
@JohnQPublic11 4 года назад
@24:00 ---- Correct.
@thomas.bobby.g2918
@thomas.bobby.g2918 4 года назад
Congratulations, new lows for Trinities Podcast. I suggest you ask Satan next about the trinity. Why stop at his sons?
@claudiozanella256
@claudiozanella256 9 месяцев назад
No trinity exists. The guys of the fourth century couldn't figure out that the Holy Spirit is God almighty who is a spirit "God is a spirit". That is, the Holy Spirit who is sent by God is the SAME God. God does not personally take actions here because He is away, everything is made by his Spirit (see the gospels), this means NOBODY is actually here. This is why the Son is the King of heaven, not the Father.
@JohnQPublic11
@JohnQPublic11 4 года назад
@32:35 --- Correct.
@greglogan7706
@greglogan7706 4 года назад
I see no meaningful relationship between John1.1 and Proverbs 8 etc - the latter being a poetic expression whereas the former being a didactic statement based more on Genesis 1 and Psalm 33.6 etc
@eew8060
@eew8060 3 года назад
I think there is a possible connection that Tuggy ignores. You should be more open minded
@JohnQPublic11
@JohnQPublic11 4 года назад
The intermediary in the Old Testament was YHVH's Holy Spirit.
@LA-kc7ev
@LA-kc7ev 9 месяцев назад
There are instances of a 'Great Angel', such as the Angel God announced would accompany the Israelites to the Promised Land, the Angel that the people were not to disobey because, "My Name is in him", and hence referred to as the Lesser Yahweh. This Angel's name, Yahweh Yahweh, shares the same numerical value as the word 'ben', or 'son' (52). See Ex 23: 20-21
@JohnQPublic11
@JohnQPublic11 9 месяцев назад
@@LA-kc7ev --- The Angel of GOD, Angels, the Holy Spirit and all its manifestations, what are They? What are the things that appear to man that come from Heaven? In the Old Testament Creator GOD YHVH communicates with people on earth; how does HE do it? [01] In the Old Testament “the Holy Spirit”, and or "the Angel of GOD", is nothing more, or nothing less than, Creator GOD YHVH’s own personal HOLY SPIRIT. [02] *HE, Creator GOD YHVH,* reveals *HIMSELF* in the form of manifestations; these manifestations *ARE NOT* actually *HIM* in Person, as some people erroneously believe, because it’s not possible to *SEE Creator GOD YHVH* and live; so *HE* reveals *HIMSELF* in forms that the human mind can comprehend; a face, a burning bush, an angel, an apparition, etc., *HE* commonly reveals Himself as nothing more than a rustling wind. [03] But there are other things *HE, Creator GOD YHVH,* uses, i.e. sends to communicate with us, and some of those things are an angel, or two angels, or three angels, or angels that appear to be humans, or *anything* else *HE* feels is necessary and appropriate for the current circumstances. [04] In the New Testament, after *HE, Creator GOD YHVH,* creates *HIS Only Begotten Son* Yeshua/Jesus, and after Yeshua/Jesus dies on the Cross, ascends to Heaven, and is seated at the right hand of His GOD and Fathers Throne, *THEN* Yeshua’s/Jesus’s Holy Spirit interacts with us on earth in the exact same way as *HE, Creator GOD YHVH,* did in the Old Testament.
@thomas.bobby.g2918
@thomas.bobby.g2918 3 года назад
there is no "jewish" in Scripture
@JohnQPublic11
@JohnQPublic11 4 года назад
The angel of the LORD is HIS Holy Spirit.
@irreview
@irreview 4 года назад
I thought the Angel of the Lord was Jesus. And the Shekinah entering the Temple on Yom Kippur was the Holy Spirit...
@joachim847
@joachim847 4 года назад
@@irreview _Shekinah_ is the feminine aspect of G-d in Kabbalah, I think. The word doesn't actually appear in the Torah.
@greglogan7706
@greglogan7706 4 года назад
Oh geez....😪
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