Trinity vs. Modalism Debate: James White vs. Roger Perkins 

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Finally! A moderator who actually moderates DURING the debate! Good times!

Over the years of having contact with Oneness churches, preachers, and teachers, I've noticed that Trinitarians speak with more love and less frustration in their voices when they have debates. Even just interactions with saints or even sinners.

The biggest difference in this debate, is that James White knows what he is talking about

Good job Dr. White. I appreciate your truth, your patience, and your maturity in the faith.

Perkins was very disrespectful here. Where's the reverence for God's word? He's argued a whole lot, but he never actually debated!

I am great full that I have received the revelation of who God really is as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and glad that I've been Baptized in the name of Jesus...

I grew up in the Oneness cult. Shortly into Perkins' introductory remarks, he made a familiar yet repulsive move, namely *YELLING* at his audience. Apparently, at least in the mind of many oneness speakers, this tactic sets the (false) professor up as authoritative, intending to invoke an emotional response. When your argument lacks reason, just yell. Yeah, that's the ticket🙄. I always hated that. Perkins soundly lost this debate in the view of any reasonable person, from his misrepresentation of White's (i.e., the Christian) position to straw man argumentation. I don't expect Perkins to admit this, nor any of those who are victim to Oneness theology, but the fact remains. Great job Mr. White with systematically dismantling this heretical viewpoint.

Mr. White is so calm,while Perkins is so frustrated,and inpatient,like a spoiled brat.

Dr White is BRILLIANT.no confusion/no nonsense

After watching the debate, it is quite clear that Mr. Perkins 1) does not even understand the nature of the debate and 2) does not have the ability to understand Dr. White's questioning. He gives the strong impression that he showed up to the wrong debate.

Dr James White did a incredible job defending the trinity. God is glorified weather we like it or not. All things are for the glory of God. 1 being 3 persons all glory to ( God ) the Father the Son the Holy Spirit. 🙏🏻 #monotheistic #Trinitarian

Perkins should've asked for clarification more often. He didn't seem to get the questions. He got too emotional, angry, and prideful to focus. He takes things way too personal for a debate. He needs to calm down, slow down, and listen carefully. Instead of trying to win.

Lovely how James White tears Perkins apart in the cross examination. Lovely work.

I’ve had several doctrinal discussions with Roger Perkins. I’m surprised he felt he was ready or capable to debate Dr. White.

Genesis 1:26 Let US make man in OUR IMAGE-GOD was speaking to angels ? what a nonsense -like if the angels have CREATIVE POWER-can u imagine GOD needing the help of angels to create man ? what a blasphemy .

Listening to Mr. Perkins stresses me out... But it is so necessary to deal with this issue. The Athanasian Creed is very helpful.

I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. (John 17:11 NIV) More unity talk

Poor Roger Perkins. Much like Robert Sabin in 1985 in his debate with Walter Martin on the John Ankerberg show, he implodes for all to see and hear.

Oneness lost. he said "fullness of God" dwells in Christ... in the Greek means "full measure of God." so he lost... that proves Greek doesn't mean same person, only CO-ETERNAL CO-UNION CO-EQUAL of everything that relates to God.

Perkins is REALLY rude and disrespectful throughout this exchange. I greatly admire Dr. White's patience and charity in dealing with him.

Is Psalm 110:1 not example of more than one in the Old Testament?

When your loosing a debate,be sarcastic ad start screaming that should do it lol

Did anyone else think that the closing music and the picture of the announcer popping up was gonna say, "in loving memory..."?

Brother James’ opening statement just comes in like the absolutely comprehensive, devastating theological haymaker that it is!!! Wow!!!

I love James White!! You can learn a thing or two from him.

melted into the same deal of unitarians accusing trinitarians of polytheism. where the one-pens, JWs and muslims get mixed up is when they think that because these 3 persons are individuals that they must have their own agenda. john 10:30 where Jesus says He and the Father are one is them being one in will and purpose. gen 19:23 of the LORD raining down fire from the LORD is simply the two divine persons working together to accomplish one goal. haven't watched the whole debate thus far but i hope 1cor 8:6 gets mentioned. this verse is redundant if the Father and the Son are one person switching modes. also, Jesus has to pre-exist the incarnation in order to create all things.

All Unitarians need to look at Michael S. Heiser's videos on the Divine Counsil and The Trinity in the Old Testament

"And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had *with you* before the world began." -John 17:5. Here you go, all the proof you need that Jesus existed as a seperate person WITH the Father (and not as a form of the Father) before He was born.

I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty, but by my name the Lord I did not make myself fully known to them. (Exodus 6:3 NIV)

"Let us make man in our image , after our likeness" .

James White says >> 3 divine individuals, each with their own separate centers of consciousness? White won the debate with this confession?? Why is this overlooked in here???

Is Perkins doing any other debates or is he still haunted by this one?

I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one- I in them and you in me-so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. (John 17:22, 23 NIV)

James white explains very clearly. Praying for you to enligthens the minds of the whole world. God bless.

oneness pentecostal apologists have one style-Yell, Shout, Cry baby, Angry etc.

Roger Perkins lost this debate because of his "launching pad." He started with a faulty proposition: That God is one based on the Old Testament. The Old Testament did not fully reveal everything. It was a "shadow of things to come." Putting the Old with the New explains the complete truth. I would also disagree that God is personally singular in the Old Testament (Genesis 1:1,2; Genesis 1:26; Genesis 3:22; Genesis 11:7; Genesis 19:24; Deuteronomy 6:4 - God is Elohim; and Isaiah 6:3 just to name a few). Perkins hangs his hat on pronouns, as if those reveal the full theological truth. Perkins has very shaky hermeneutics.

What happened to Genesis 1:26 LE TUS MAKE FMAN IN OUR IMAGE IN OUR LIKENESS

Dr. White won hands down, I also loved the debate with brother white and brother brown teamed up against the Unitarian Jewish gentlemen. The triune nature of God is self evident in the Holy scriptures. You will see in the comment section the hate from non trinitarians, not all of them, but some of them, and the trolling from them wow, lol. Some non Trinitarians are even complaining about Dr. whites using the Holy bibles original language. Are you serious, lol. WOW!

if you take play do and break it up into three pieces there is you have a sample of the trinity; You can use the pie analogy there are three pieces but they all have the same inner ingredence

God is only one. He told me in prayer his name is Jesus Christ CV

You know people James White lost the debate as soon as he said all three gods had separate consciousnesses!!!

Jesus christ is the infinite spirit, breath of life, tree of life, bread of life, the father is the divine conscience of Jesus christ, Jesus Christ is in the father and the farther is in Jesus christ, Jesus Christ and the father are one person and one God the one and only true living God who is in all things and created all things 🙏❤

This says 3 witnesses, are 3 whitenesses one person? Or are u gonna say this does not belong here?

THE DOCTRINE OF TRINITY (Who can understand it?) There are those who tried to define trinity and there are those who also tried to explain what trinity is. But those who defines and those who attempted to explain it, don’t have the capability of comprehending trinity by themselves through human knowledge. They may think that they have the answer. They may think that they understand it, but unless the Holy Spirit will illuminate God’s Word to open one’s mind, no one even the most brilliant person in this world can understand the doctrine of trinity, that is the reason why many professing Christian churches become cultic. One of the Pentecostal Movements founded by William Branham becomes “oneness” because of their confusion of this doctrine. Branham tried to define and explain about God and said that while Jesus was crucified, God the Father and God the Holy Spirit were also hanging on the cross. Branham condemned Christians who believe in trinity because there is no such word in the Bible and this teaching is of the devil, he said. Branham and his followers don’t understand and were confused about the trinity thus, “Oneness Church” becomes a cultic religion. There are also those who believe trinity, who believe Jesus is the Christ but to them, Jesus is only a man and not the Almighty God, again this is another cultic religion. The Catholics believe trinity but Catholicism also contends that Mary was without sin, making her into a type of a “god” thus, claiming that Mary is the “fourth person” within the trinity. Mary now has a direct say in mankind’s salvation through her role of co-redemption and mediation. Hence, the elevated Mary becomes a “goddess” in the Catholic faith. This kind of doctrine is more confusing and is more destructive than any other cultic and occultism. Why are all these confusions? It is because not unless the Holy Spirit will illuminate our mind when we read the Bible or when we hear God’s Word we cannot understand the TRIUNE GOD. No one can explain TRINITY and no one can define it. Just like a certain taste to have tasted a distinct flavor. How can you explain the taste of saltiness to someone who has not tasted salt? How can you explain sour or sweetness to someone who haven’t tasted sweet or the taste of sour? How can you explain the flavor of an avocado to someone who have not eaten an avocado fruit? How can you explain the color of the rainbow to someone who is born blind? When God the Holy Spirit will open our mind about TRINITY that is the only time we can understand it but we can’t find word to explain it or to make it comprehensible. I had been born again and had been a pastor preaching and teaching the Bible. I just believe the trinity because Jesus plainly says about it many times especially in the gospel of John. He was talking about the Father and he was talking about the Holy Spirit and He was also talking about the Son. I just trusted His Word even though I can’t grasp the meaning of it. For 34 years of being a preacher of God’s Word, it was only this year of 2009 when the Holy Spirit illuminated His Word while God had inspired me to write a sermon for my website to explain the Ten Commandments. While writing the “First and Second Commandments” sermon, the Holy Spirit opened the eyes of my heart. The word “God” in Hebrew is “Elohim” which is in plural form. In Genesis 1:26, Elohim said,“Let us make man in our image.” He was not talking to the angels as the cultic religion explains because angels are not God’s partners in the creation. Elohim was talking to himself (God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit). When Jesus was crucified, he called the Father in the singular form “Eloi”(Aramaic). (Matthew 27:46), “Eloi, Eloi lama sabachthani?” (He did not use the word Elohim) “My God, my God why have you forsaken me?” To two people who have eyes to see both know the color of the sky or the color of the rainbow. Do they need to explain it to each other? Those who have both tasted an avocado don’t need explanation because both knew how it tastes. Those whom God had opened their minds to understand the TRIUNE GOD will have the privilege of fully comprehending TRINITY. They don’t need to explain to each other because they can’t explain it. How then can you obtain this Divine Knowledge? Let us read Luke 11:11-13, “Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, though you are evil, know how to give gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him?” It is the Holy Spirit who will illuminate God’s Word into our mind so what we have to do is to ask the Father. But asking for the Holy Spirit should not be taken lightly. In the previous verses from the same context, (Luke 11:5-8) Jesus is talking about a persistent and boldness in asking. Not because God is hard to ask or unwilling to give what you are asking for but to test ourselves if we really are serious and that we really thirst for God. (Psalm 42:1) “As the deer pants for streams of water, so my soul pants for you O God.” Do you really thirst for God and for His Word? Do you really thirst for the Holy Spirit? Persistently asking to the Father is vital, important, necessary, it is imperative and urgent. No one should take it lightly. Jesus Challenge all of us in verses 9 to 10, “So I say to you: ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.” The moment God will open your mind to understand the doctrine of TRINITY, there is no way that you become a cultic or to follow wrong, contaminated and confusing doctrine. Notice what Jesus says; “How much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him.” Not everyone has the right to call God his or her Father if a person is still spiritually dead. That is why to be born again is a MUST. And even if you are a true born again Christian you still have to persistently ask the Father for the Holy Spirit so to comprehend the incomprehensible. I’ll say it again, no one even the most brilliant person in this world can understand the doctrine of trinity unless the Holy Spirit will open one’s mind. Sermon by:Bobby Cabonce Website: thereisnoothername.com

THE TRINITY by @Raymond Woodward You deserve to know. Although many people do not know where the doctrine of the trinity comes from, they accept it as part of the Bible. Many people accept this doctrine because it is the teaching of their church. Many accept it because they have been taught about the trinity for many years, so it must be right. Others accept this teaching only because they don't know of any other teaching concerning God. We believe that if people actually knew where this teaching originated from, they would not accept it. The trinity was not taught by the Apostles of the Bible. Jesus didn't teach about a trinity. The number three is never used in association with God. Still, most Christians believe in a trinity. Could so many people all be wrong? Here are the facts: Several hundred years before Jesus was ever born lived a man named Socrates. He was a philosopher, a man who sought for wisdom. He received his wisdom from an "internal sign"(1), which he considered to be "divine"(2). It spoke to him in "a kind of voice"(3). We would like to believe that it was God speaking to him, but it wasn't. When asked if these voices were Zeus, Apollo, and Athena (three Greek gods), Socrates said, "Certainly." When asked if they were his gods, he answered, "My lords and ancestors"(4). This man was not in communication with the God of the Bible. He explained that his wisdom came from these spirits that were "knowing or wise." He openly declared that these wise spirits were demons(5). He esteemed these wise ones, these Greek gods, these demons, and they were the source of his wisdom. Socrates had a famous student named Plato. He was born in 427 B.C. in Athens, Greece. He taught and believed many things that are against the Bible. One example was his idea that there is a universal diety composed of three separate beings. He never called his diety a trinity, but his concept of God was referred to as the "Platonic Trinity." The three persons in this triad were God, the Ideas, and the World Spirit. These were almost identical to Socrates' gods Zeus, "the Father"(6); Apollo, the begotten son of Zeus who was the "god of intellect";(7) and Athena, whose name means "eternal life," who was an unbegotten spirit-being who came into the world from the head of Zeus(8). Thus in the teachings of Plato, we have a pagan trinity of gods - father, begotten son, and unbegotten spirit. Plato also had a famous student Aristotle. Aristotle taught Alexander the Great, and as a result, this philosophy spread throughout the world. These philosophies were existing in the days of Jesus Christ and in the centuries that followed. Although the Apostles who preached the truths found in the Bible were not influenced by these men and their teachings, other men were. As the church left the time of the apostles, men began introducing teachings that were different from the Apostles teachings. This was a plan conceived by the devil to steal the truth from the church, and it almost worked. Within 300 years of the founding of the church, there existed the Roman Catholic Church. This church changed many truths into false traditions. The teachings of the Roman Catholic Church are based on the teachings of certain men referred to as "Church Fathers." One of the earliest fathers was Justin Martyr, who in 133 A.D. became a Christian after studying the philosophies of Socrates and Plato. Justin said there was no difference between Christianity and these philosophies - that Christianity fulfills the highest aspirations of Plato(9). Justin also said that the Bible and Plato agreed(10). Justin called Socrates, whose name means "mighty saviour," a "Christian before Christ"(11). This is the same Socrates who said his teachings were from false gods and demons. Although the Catholic Church does not regard all of Justin's teachings, they admit, "His influence is marked above all in Iraenaeus, Tertullian, Hippolytus, and Origen,(other Catholic Church fathers) who built on foundations laid by him"(12). The New Catholic Encyclopedia says, "Justin's Platonism seriously affects his theology of the relationship between the Father and the Logos"(13). In 185 A.D., Origen, who is mentioned above, declared that "all truth is precious, whether in Greek or Christian soil... He recognized in the revived Plato a powerful ally of Christianity"(14). Origen "used the philosophy of the Greeks as the vestibule through which to admit his hearers into the temple of the gospel"(15). Jesus said, "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves" (Matthew 7:15). All philosophers were required to wear a special coat when fulfilling their office. It was a coat made of sheep's wool. These philosophers were the ones Jesus was speaking of. Justin Martyr even wore this coat. Origen said he used the philosophies of these men to show people the gospel. Unfortunately these philosophies originated not in heaven, but in hell. Socrates called one of his lords "Apollo." In the book of Revelation 9:11, the angel of the bottomless pit is called by two names. One of them is Abaddon, the Hebrew word for destroyer. The other name is Appolyon, which is the very same as Apollo. The devil is the man who gave Socrates his ideas and philosophies. Many of the Catholic church fathers used these philosophies to form church doctrines, including the trinity. In 325 A.D., the Council of Nicea established that the Father and Son were separate. The champion of this council was Athanasius. This man is a highly esteemed church father and his name is derived from Athena, the Greek goddess Plato called the World-Spirit. There was another council held at Constantinople. At this council, men determined that the Holy Spirit was also separate from the Father and the Son. Thus the concept of the trinity was born. In 354 A.D. a man named Augustine was born. He is one of the most notable of the church fathers. He laid many of the foundations for the Roman Catholic Church. Many regard him as the founder of Christian tradition in the western world. The New Catholic Encyclopedia tells us that Augustine was given certain books written by Plato. While reading them he had a spiritual awakening that changed his vision of the world. These books also led him to a better understanding of God and led him to the notion of the trinity(16). He later devoted his life fully to Catholicism, but never forsook these philosophies. He believed that "the basis for faith was found in Christ, and the basis for reason was the philosophy of Plato"(17). Please note that his revelation of the trinity came not from the Bible, but from reading Plato. By the time Augustine died, most of the truths of the Book-of-Acts Church had been buried under the teachings of these church fathers. These church fathers did not get their understanding from God or the Bible. They used the philosophies of Greek men who lived hundreds of years before Christ. Jesus said, "Wide is the gate...which leadeth to destruction"(Matthew 7:13). The name Plato comes from a Greek word "platus," which means "wide"(18). These church fathers were allowing this scripture to be fulfilled through their teachings. They based much of their philosophies and teachings, including the trinity, on the teachings of Plato. Plato was instructed by Socrates. Socrates had wisdom given to him by Greek gods, who Socrates referred to as demons. Is this where the Church should get its doctrines? The Bible plainly says that "God was manifested in the flesh" (1 Timothy 3:16); that "God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself"(1 Corinthians 5:19); that Jesus Christ was "the only begotten God"(John1:18, Amplified and original Greek). Men have been led astray by the vain philosophies of the world. They have tried to explain God using man's philosophies. James said that the wisdom of the world is "earthly, sensual, devilish" (James 3:15). The word devilish literally means "proceeding from or resembling a demon"(19). This is the very way Socrates got his wisdom. Jesus did not say He was the second person in a trinity. He said, "I am the first and the last"(Revelation 1:7). You deserve to know the truth. The trinity is not based on truth; it is a doctrine that is a deception of the devil. "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is One Lord." Deuteronomy 6:4 REFERENCES (1) Plato, The Republic, Book 4, 496 (2) Plato, Euthydemus, 272 (3) Plato, Apology, 31 (4) Plato, Euthydemus, 302 (5) Plato, Cratylus, 398 (6) New Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol 4, 537 (7) Time-Life Books, Classical Greece, 18 (8) Ibid., Appendix, The Olympian Family (9) New Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol 8, 94 (10) New Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol 8, 94 (11) New Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol 8, 94 (12) New Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol 8, 95 (13) New Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol 8, 95 (14)John Fletcher Hurst, History of The Christian Church, 300 (15) John Fletcher Hurst, History of The Christian Church, 304 (16) New Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol 1, 1043 (17) New Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol 8, 1063 (18) Vine, Unger, and White, Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, 742 (19) Vine, Unger, and White, Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, 158 ------------ This article was written by Raymond

2:24:00 Said it all!

I find it interesting how one will automatically side with the winner of a debate being the person that they share theological positions with. Both men had very good points and did well. I have not heard sermons from White, just debates, in which he is very talented in upholding his position. I have heard a sermon from Perkins and even sat with him and had some personal discussion, namely, concerning his position on 1Cor 15:24-28. He is a phenomenal speaker, preaches the cross, and is very well versed. I think many may not like the country boy approach and demeanor, but it does not take from the study he has done in God's word.

Please explain: St John 6:33 For the bread of God is He which cometh DOWN FROM HEAVEN, and giveth life unto the world. read to verse 38 reads "..For I came DOWN FROM heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. My question query is: explain what Jesus meant when he sent CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN.

The answer is "Jesus was God in the flesh" lol!!!!!!

As you all see, The Trinitarian view is the only view FULLY compatible with scripture.!! Greetings in Christ!

Perkins is too emotional, sarcastic, and jumpy. White is calm, poised, and confident. With that being said, I think Perkins held his own, but failed to prove Unitarianism in my humble opinion.

It's difficult to listen to Perkins speak with his saliva issue. He's smacking his gums. Otherwise, it's an informative debate.

No one in all of creation can imagine nor know, nor see the Father, who is beyond creation. So YHWH is the person whom creation have access to the Father, because He is in the Father, and the Father is in Him. Through Him and for Him all things were created. We imagine God as a contained being, someone in creation, but before the beginning there was only God, and as everything began, there was three but were one. Three because each one operated in different levels or "states", and has different functions. But we must realize that God cannot be limited, nor measured, but has chosen to reveal Himself and operate in the way He chose which we now perceive as Son, Father, and Holy Spirit. God is One, only, no measure, He is just Himself. So He says, I am that I am.

This was 8 yrs ago, still unresolved, no rabbi or teacher or anyone can fully describe in human language

How could Jesus sit at the right hand of the Father if it is the same person???

the number of the day ...9,000...haha

As always the oneness Pentecostals have yet again shown us there illogical, non-sense, very emotional arguments. They are very very confused and make many be confused, context is thrown out of the window, no understanding of what the bible says, they just appeal to there emotions, it's always fun and amazing (in a strange way) to hear debates with Modalist. As always Dr. White was consistent in his arguments, always appreciate his ministry.

I love seeing Perkins backed into a corner on Col. 1, and all he could do, is bring up lexicons! LOL!

Trinitarians! Woot! Woot! 😮😅😊 Interesting debate proposition.

There is reference to the plurality of the nature of God in the OT: Genesis 1:26 "Let us make..." Proverbs 30:2-4 "...and the name of his son." Isaiah 48:16 "And now the Lord God has sent Me, and His Spirit." You don't find any reference to "Jesus the Messiah", "the Son of the living God", "The only begotten Son", "The Lamb of God who is seated at the right hand of the Father", No reference to many elements of the gospel in the OT. The revelation is progressive. Much was not known about the revelation of the Son and the revelation of that mystery was a stumbling stone to many Jews of the first century and many still stumble today. God was known to the saints of the OT as having a Spirit from Himself that ministers to men: Genesis 1:2, 6:3, Malachi 2:15, Job 33:4, Nehemiah 9:20, Psalm 51:11, Zechariah 7:12, 2 Samuel 23:2...

I was really hoping to come away with a clear understanding of oneness beliefs, but all I got was "9k personal pronouns in the OT". So, from the oneness view, when we see Jesus interacting with the Father, whether thats in prayer or when Jesus is baptized and the Father says "this is my son" and so on do oneness people believe Jesus is talking to himself? He never really answered questions, just tried to score points and thats frustrating when you are wanting to understand.

Mr. Perkins got smoked. He fumbled on his first rebuttal, got heated and failed to realize his misuse of terms, over and over again.

God became father.God became son.God is Holy Ghost.God is one.His name is LORD JESUS CHRIST.Amen.

Perkins is loud, brash and is not debating scrutinizing scripture but preaching his oneness unbiblical theology. Praise God for Dr James White. God bless.

Misleading title.. LOL Roger Perkins doesnt believe in modalism. Thats the belief that God adopts a different mode of himself sequentially. Vastly different from Oneness, in which God as God still existed post incarnation. Not back to back

Just a thought....does anyone else see a mathematical error in saying "trinitarian" alongside "monotheism " just chew on that for a bit.

No one can pluck them out of my hand the father gave them to me and nobody can pluck them out of his hand can you Get that revelation

With all due respect to Mr. Perkins you were in way over your head. Dr. White really laid it on you. I actually felt sorry for you. Modalism is nothing more than an old rehashed ancient heresy that started with Noetus of Smyrna, Praxeas,, Paul of Samosata, Sabellius, etc. Besides the Bible as the best refutation against the modalist position I would recommend this book: "A Definitive Look at Oneness Theology In Light of Biblical Trinitarianism" Edward L. Dalcour GET THAT BOOK!!!!!

So there are three witnesses in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are One; (1 John 5:7 AMP) Perkins you like the Amplified Bible right? What do you think about this verse that comes from the bible you quoted from?

Omnipresence is existing outside of time and space, because if you exist outside of time and space, you can touch anything instantly. Even though Jesus came in the flesh, He as the 2nd Person exists outside of time and space as do the 1st and 3rd Persons as well.

The farther is the divine conscience of Jesus christ, the farther is in Jesus christ and Jesus Christ is in the father, and Jesus Christ is in all things, and created all things 🙏❤

If your calling calling this debate" trinity versus Modalism" then you are ignorant of the issues here and the Oneness position. We are not defending something you trins. are calling us based off of an ancient Oneness persons using the term mode of being.

While modalism is inaccurate, and Perkins really drove the "number of OT scriptures mentioning oneness" thing into the ground, and ignores the notion of the NT being a new revelation (so new details about God and other doctrines can be added); still the common view of the Trinity as *three separate minds/wills/emotions,* or what White has called it, *"One What, Three Who's"*, is not what's supported by the scriptures. This turns the one divine nature into a "thing" shared by three separate "beings". (Modalism reverses this into "One Who, Three What's". Trinitarians are better off just saying "One Who/Three Whos"). I'm surprised this "What/Who" term White coined or popularized didn't come up in this debate. Also, the notion that there had to be three, so God wouldn't have been "lonely" in past eternity. (I mean, seriously? Do we really think about these ideas we call scriptural?) The concept really has its origin in Origen, his pupil Athanasius (who brought it into the "orthodox" side of the Nicene council), and finally finished off by Augustine. The previous "Orthodox" position (which is what first fought modalism) recognized that Christ was differentiated as a clearly separate body of consciousness by the humanity of the Incarnation. (This is called *"ecoomic"* trinitarianism). BUT, as such He was still God, and not "just" human, as modern modalism has fallen into saying (which then would amount to "unitarianism", though it's not supposed to be, yet Perkins seemed to in this discussion somewhat maintain the incarnate Christ's deity, which makes him sound close to the original orthodox view; yet he does seems to own the "unitarian" tag). The traditional view, has of course, natuurally concluded how since this is God, He is "incomprehensible" in how Three can be One, but then when we see evidences of "plurality" and "personal" actions of the Spirit or preincarnate Son (Word) in either testament, what we end up doing in using the term "person" is *relating it to us, as "persons" with mind/will/emotions, and then visualizing three of them,* side by side, like an earthly "council" (and some even have called it that!) How they fit together into one is then what we figure is "incomprehensible". But we've already jumped into the realm of the incomprehensible in projecting our own experience of "pesonality" onto God! That's the mistake. (The Eastern Church, which questioned Augustine's way of philosophizing things, had a somewhat better handle on the Trinity).

I was really hoping to visit and uncover some truth about the Oneness position. However, Perkins complete collapse on the issue was as embarassing as it was discouraging. This was shameful. And poor form on top of it.

HAPPY NEW YEAR!!

Jesus never said he was going back to the father. he said he was going to the father.. john 14:28 says I am going to the father. the father is greater than I am- so much for equality.

I always just think of genesis 1:26 “and God said “Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness.” That is so clearly a conversation between multiple (three) persons talking to each other. And yet it just simply says God said. Would seem that God contains multiple beings so God can have a conversation between 3 persons and that conversation would still be considered a statement by God. An example of this would be a jury in a court is made up of 12 people. The 12 people have a conversation and come to a conclusion that someone in guilty. The court would not name every single person individually in the jury and say they all said “I find him guilty” rather the court would just say the jury has said “we find him guilty.” Hope this makes sense, it is one jury but 12 persons but their statement is not considered 12 statements it’s considered 1 statement by 1 jury. So it is with God in this text. 3 persons talk and and make a statement. It’s not addressed as 3 statements from three persons that make up God rather it’s simply addressed as one statement by one God. But look at the statement we can see through the wording it’s clearly a conversation between multiple persons rather that 1 person, if it was 1 person it would have simply said “ let me (not we) make man in my (not our) image, after my (again not our) likeness. If there is no 3 persons who is the we, who is the “our”??

1 who was the first trinitarian believer? 2 where in the bible does jesus or his apostles teach that god is a trinity? Three persons of the Trinity?...Show me where the Holy Ghost speaks to the Son, or even where the Holy Spirit speaks to the Father?

What will a human being that has undergone the rapture look like? How will we be changed, how will we relate to one another and or God? Currently in my fallen state I am alone, both by an unwilling separation, but also by a willingness to be so. How many of us would willingly share our full unguarded mind? From my own personal experience there is a desire to have intimacy to be known, but when I consider what that intimacy looks like; how deep it needs to go to be real, how deep I am willing to let it go, I understand there is no way for it to be deep enough to be effective. In fact, I think many turn God away in preference, of not being know in their sin. The light came into the world but men loved the darkness. I wonder if it is our state that makes Gods triunity such a mystery. What if we could love another so completely that their well being was our good. That’s not currently our reality but I do think we can consider what it might look like. If it were the case then what was done to one would be done to the other and they would for all practical consideration be one. I would also like to point out that while we often use God to refer to the Father as though that was His name it is not a name it is a position. The term denotes authority, power, and so on. In that sense anything we revere, that we serve, that has power over us is our god. Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. People get hung up on the first commandment I am Yahweh your God, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourselves an idol, nor any image of anything that is in the heavens above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: you shall not bow yourself down to them, nor serve them, for I, Yahweh your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and on the fourth generation of those who hate me, and showing loving kindness to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments. This does not say there are no other gods it warns that they do not have Yahweh’s power and that His people are not to honor any other than Him. Was it the Father that led them out? the Son? or the Spirit? When I see the text it was three persons with one interest working as one to one end. I don’t see a deep mystery I see perfect intimacy. Some in these comments have asked if God wants us to understand this couldn’t he make it more clear? I think if you can see the color blue no one needs to explain to you what blue is and if you can’t see it though it is a simple thing it would all the same be very difficult to provide the experience of its being to one that did not share in that experience. I think our fallen nature is the problem. Trust Him to love you and let Him in. Maybe the whole three in one want be so difficult after all.

The Father sent the Son and the Son sent the Holy Spirit.

1:38:43 he’s now accusing, Dr. White. I’ve been a authoritarian on the subject of the conversation, dude, it’s a debate you both agreed to the topic before you got there.

I'd like to hear a debate on why pentecostals think beards are evil.

So Perkins doesn't believe in the NT and has no clue how to interpret the OT

Why is it that Mr Perkins isn't just going with original modalist views? And how come in these trinitarian views their is no reference to the origin of the trinity. Augustine didnt even believe that the term "person" was adequate in describing the idea but rather necessary in the understanding of what God is three or... Also how is there no question of original idea of Jesus and the Holy spirit being subordinate to the Father within the Godhead which is evident in the scriptures pre-crucifixion and post Resurrection. The equality was ontological ( "matter" according to tertullian) not authoritative. Lets not for get the ineffable nature of God. The term "person" is inadequate and not all inclusive.

I just wish Dr.White would have shown the Trinity in the Old Testament As a Point in debate I KNOW thats what Perkins wanted to hear,And I Tell You THERE IS SO MANY EVIDENCE FOR THIS!!!!

1:21:00 Perkins talks about NORMAL understanding, but in that verse it's one person speaking to another. Normal understanding says it takes 2 people to have a conversation. Unless you crazy and you just talk to yourself.

My God, My God in Matt. 27.46 should be in context that it was Jesus who humbled Himself to show us perfect obedience unto the Father so Jesus does the perfect will of the Father even to the pointing of making Himself a ransom for the sins of the world.

Dr White, minor correction, at 1:31:33 I think it's Genesis 19, not Gen 18. happens. God bless.

James White confirms the oneness position at 2:32:14 where he’s says “The Father, The Son and The Spirit their “ROLES” have been completed.” That is the oneness view One God 3 roles or manifestations. If trinitarians drop the word “persons” (which is unbiblical) and use the term “manifestations” (which is biblical) there would be much more agreement.

I don’t think people understand that if you strip the glory and deity of Christ, you unravel the entire Bible (in your mind). It won’t make much sense.

I'd love to have a Trinitarian answer one question: who is speaking in Isaiah 44:24 when God says He created everything "alone" and "by Myself"? Father, Son, Holy Ghost, or is a triune God speaking as a composite?

Jesus is the only one God revealed in the flesh

Did I miss the answer from Perkins concerning "my God, my God"?

Thank you Sola Scriptura! Excellent comments. Keep them coming.

The Trinitarian always seems to be the nicer one debating.

Perkins seems allergic to exegesis. been waiting for a thorough exegesis of John 17:3-5 and Philippians 2:6-11. About 1.5 hrs into the debate now.

The Jews never believed in Jesus as the Messiah, in Original sin, the Sin Nature, Total depravity, Baptismal Regeneration, Jesus name Baptism or a slew of other Doctrines that Apostolics preach. The Plurality of Majesty is never mentioned in the bible and we can add a massive list of theological ISM's that the bible never mentions by actual name. So the excuse that the Trinity is no where found in the bible and the Jews never believed in so therefore it is wrong, is the stupidest argument that a oneness believer can ever say.

I'm not sure if James White is seeking truth or just seeking to win an argument. The oneness position seems to make the most sense to me.

TRINITARIAN DOCTRINE The circus father who introduced the concept of the trinity that originated from all Sun worshipers before him was Augustine, now dubbed the "father of orthodoxy." He was from Alexandria, Egypt, and the Catechetical School (Ecole Biblique). He was 27 when he stood before Constantine at the Council of Nicaea, and produced the doctrine of "one god in three persons," which Catholicism and her daughters have made the defining doctrine that "saves" a person. The belief in "one god in three persons" is what Augustine declared was vital to a person's salvation, and required for an individual to be a Catholic. The became the main attack against Arius, who taught Yahuah is Yahusha, and also shed His blood to purchase us. The origins of our behavior need to be explored and pagan habits purged. We are trained to disobey the eternal Covenant by the bulk of Christian pastors, but to be the bride, we need to obey the Commandments. Look into how the CRUX became the symbol of Constantine's new religion, adopted from his Sun worship. It never was used by the first Natsarim followers of Yahusha. Yahusha said, "I am the Vine; you are the Natsarim." (Yn. 15:5) #natsarim